Article

2004-06-29 Terror Networks

Allah Made It Obligatory to Terrify the Enemy of Allah

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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-06-29 12:26:59 AM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Think of it as a disease. The Mother of All Diseases.

It can become extremely virulent within an infected population and is most contagious when present en masse as it then controls its own environment.

It manifests itself most apparently in Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, and Indonesia. It currently seems poised to spread into other Asian and African regions, as well as westward. Free, democratic, and industrialized (i.e. affluent) populations appear to have the greatest degree of natural resistance - as evidenced by visibly lower infection rates in many areas, but this immunity varies across a wide range. It seems that no population is totally immune.

Each locale displays slight variations in the symptoms (e.g. external appearance: facial hair or lack, headwear design, etc.), but the disease process is the same. It activates and attacks children when they first begin to comprehend language and, if allowed to reinforce the initial phase with concentrated ongoing exposure, the host is doomed. This readily occurs in saturated populations - becoming ever more virulent over time for the complete lifecycle of the host. In fact, this agent is so insidious that it threatens death to any host so bold as to contemplate any form of treatment, whether it is through escape from the infected population or any degree of active resistance within.

The disease process begins by destroying individualism, identity, and intellectual curiosity - replacing them with total compliance and acceptance of the authoritarian. The advanced state of the illness commonly expresses itself through repression, brutality, blind hatred, and psychopathic insanity. This occurs when a sufficient number of hosts have been infected. This critical mass - a saturated population, once reached, utterly destroys social tolerance and discourse - and yields a total loss of will, honor and respect for others.

In the most advanced cases, saturated populations have been observed actively killing potential hosts through external means - without bothering to infect them. At this stage, the clinician is likely to find himself bewildered - as it is counterintuitive: this behavior runs counter to all other natural processes; it just makes no sense.

For young children, it has been observed, in the rare cases where it has been possible to do so, that removal from the infected population may halt the process - if done early enough and the child is completely isolated such that they only have contact with naturally immune hosts.

For the mature individual, however, if reared in an infected population - particularly one displaying the characteristics of an advanced stage - there is no known cure. It leaves no aspect, no potential, absolutely nothing of the individual host uncorrupted.

All identified vectors should be aggressively treated without hesitation at the first sign of symptomatic behavior. Total eradication will likely be necessary to check the spread and prevent future outbreaks.

Islam. The only known pathogen with a human fatality rate of 100 percent.

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 12:54:59 AM|| 2004-06-29 12:54:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Anonymous5539 TROLL 2004-06-29 1:16:54 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:16:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 .com,
Brilliant!
Anybody who has ever lived in a Middle Eastern country and specially in Saudi Arabia understands this analogy only too well!

Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-06-29 1:38:07 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:38:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 How is it related to the topic?

But if you wnt to know... No one.
2 versions...
1. the crucifixion was staged
2. the outcome was predetermined--thus the participants only played their part without any volition.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-06-29 1:40:20 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:40:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Anonymous5539...If you had a basic understanding of Christian apologetics you would not ask that question and show your bias and ignorance.

Posted by anymouse 2004-06-29 1:41:34 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:41:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 That was for Anonymous5539.

Agreed with Anonymous4617.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-06-29 1:42:04 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:42:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Zarathustra...whatever.

Posted by anymouse 2004-06-29 1:42:26 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:42:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 You killed Jesus.

Posted by Halfass Pete 2004-06-29 1:55:05 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:55:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Wow, somebody must have hit a nerve...they only break out the "who killed Jesus" in times of desperation! lol

Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-06-29 1:56:52 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:56:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 A4617 - Thx :)

This is the first anniversary of the first time I posted this. I knew there would be an appropriate article for it - every day contains all the proof a non-idiotarian should require - but there it was: first article of the day proclaiming Islam for the pathogen it is. Serendipity.

The first posting wasn't, how shall I say this, "well received" - yeah, that's pretty accurate.

This is a "temperature check" to see how the PC Syndrome is coming along. Is PC-stupidity moderating? Is it getting worse? And looking ahead... Are we going to survive? If so, how many lives will the PC weenies cost us, first? Are we doomed? If so, do we go quietly -- or take a shitload of the assholes with us?

So I was just wondering where we stand, relative to a year ago.

Next year, we can talk about how the Iraqi Civil War, Post-Partitioning of Kurdistan, is going.

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 2:18:52 AM|| 2004-06-29 2:18:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Malignant mutation of a deep-seated (and generally beneficial) meme. Very dangerous.

You go first...

Posted by mojo 2004-06-29 2:46:31 AM|| 2004-06-29 2:46:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 "Whoever denies that the Jews and Christians are kafir, they are kafir."

Say Wha? This is like The Life of Brian on some really bad acid. More precisely, it is superstition. The disease of which you spoke of .com

Muslims readily attack and condemn other Muslims because they commit terrorist acts, yet they do not know that Terrorism is obligatory in Islam against the enemy of Allah. ....

A disease indeed, because they cannot see the folly that leads muslims to kill each other, both parties doing it in the name of Allan, for example, shia vs salafi, sunni vs sufi, wahab vs all the above, and any other variation. Atheists follow the same puritanical rage; Theirs is every bit the superstitious belief system as the moslum, filled with bizzare blood-letting ritual, for example, abortion. The greatest danger faced by muslims is islam, and the greatest danger facing American Civilization is Atheism, the right of which to practice, is fully protected by our constitution: trust me, I've been an atheist as many times as I've quit smoking.

None of which is predetermined, in a free country. We do not have the option to pretend that fatalism, pessimism, nihilism, are all to be predetermined upon us, simply because we no longer allow ourselves, by our politically corrected religions, to invest faith in the liberty (our salvation), because we chose instead, to abdicate that responsibility.

Posted by an dalusian dog 2004-06-29 2:52:18 AM|| 2004-06-29 2:52:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 MY BUMPER STICKER SAYS"NOBODY BEATS AMERICA:NOBODY!"I'D LIKE THE MUSLIM TERRORIST SHITSTAINS TO READ IT WHILE MY REAR WHEELS ARE GRINDING THEIR FACE INTO HAMBURGER.

Posted by WhiteHouseDetox 2004-06-29 2:52:35 AM|| 2004-06-29 2:52:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 "This is the first anniversary of the first time I posted this. I knew there would be an appropriate article for it"

.com, I don't recall seeing it before, but some truths are eternal.

My prediction is that you can schedule the repost for the next 15 years, and you won't miss one single time.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-06-29 2:53:38 AM|| 2004-06-29 2:53:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Well, this thread deteriorated rather abruptly, now didn't it?

I'd really love to see the blood libel woven through Islam's irrational hatred of the Jews. While interpretation of the Koran may even permit some view of Christ as a recognized Messiah (e.g., people of the book), it remains unlikely that the Crucifixion represents any realistic driving element of jihad.

I only wanted to add that people who publish or publicly avow such incredibly hostile intent (as in the cited article) need to be monitored and prioritized as potential candidates on a "wetwork" roster. It is ridiculous to sit back and blather about either freedom of religion or free speech while other people are openly advocating global cultural genocide. Those who espouse such a doctrine are nothing but another brand of Nazism.

If quelling these delusions of theological predomination requires the formation of covert international espionage teams, so be it. The Arab/Muslim Nazi Connection could not make it more clear that we are merely dealing with a mutation of Reich oriented mentality. That Islam choses to be decentralized and non-nationally aligned, per se, makes it just that much more of a threat. Instigators of global jihad like Abu Hamza need to be put on trial for sedition without delay. I believe it was Rantburg's RKB that recently differentiated so ably about the converse religious elements of "universal intent" as opposed to living within local law. And how universal religious intent could only be avowed by law abiding people. (IIRC)

We now have a political organization's religious extremists instigating global cultural genocide. What's more stunning is how so very few are standing up and taking notice. Any fragment or faction of Islam (or any other religion for that matter), advocating theocratic world domination by force must be exterminated. Rational thinking nations have no time to be bothered with correcting the distorted worldview of those who seek to destroy all cultural diversity.

If Islamists declare global jihad then we must begin killing them wherever we can find them. Deport from America any recent immigrants condoning world domination and then proceed to the great "out-of-doors." If anything, we must begin to penetrate or simply flat-out monitor the content disseminated at domestic public or prayer gatherings held on the property of tax free institutions of any faith and stripe.

Any religion or political thought-form (e.g., communism) that manifestly threatens imposition upon all others of its kind by force is simply untenable. Atheist, Agnostic, Devout, Orthodox, Fundamentalist it matters not, no religion or political mode of any kind may be permitted to attain ascendancy, especially through random coercive atrocities. Nazism and communism were some of the most recent attempts at this sort of brutality and now Islamism is contending for the soiled throne.

May they only die the quicker than ever before.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-29 3:37:54 AM|| 2004-06-29 3:37:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Sorry:

to attain ascendancy, especially through random coercive atrocities.

Should read: "... attain ascendancy by force, especially through random coercive atrocities."

Certain memes like free market economy, democracy and elected representation should be permitted to attain ascendancy though voluntary participation and inclusion but this theocratic domination horsesh!t can go directly to Hell, do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-29 3:48:17 AM|| 2004-06-29 3:48:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 .com, you just cut and pasted that entire "disease" rant from one of your earlier posts. I remember reading that maybe a year ago.

Kindly rephrase it to mean Islamism is the disease, Moderate Islam is the cure.

Because if you truly believe the entire muslim faith, moderates and all are a disease then that makes you pretty bigotted.

Imagine if, because the Ku Klux Klan are a disease I then said all of Christianity, moderates, protestants, catholics, all were a disease with a mortality rate of 100% because of lynchings.

Analogy fits. Islamism is just the KKK of Islam run amok, in control of countries, training camps and weapons.

Worst of all, you do our side a disservice.

I would rather face an honest enemy without than the enemy within who tears down our side making our job of cultural warfare harder.

alienating allies, forcing neutrals into the enemy camp.. that's what happens when you lump all muslims in the one barrel.

Tell the muslim turks about to be beheaded by Islamists that they are the same religion and fighting on the same side you moron.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 6:07:45 AM|| 2004-06-29 6:07:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Anon1 - I made that clear in #10. And here we are, still infiltrated by dipshits, gutless apologists, and reality-deniers.

I will post what I think. You are entitled, as long as the West survives idiocy such as the Myth of the Moderate Muslim, to post whatever tripe you wish. Your definitions are of your own design and they ignore the reality that belies your lofty BS. Keep on topic and think, fool. Thank you so much for your opinion. HAND/FOAD.

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 6:39:55 AM|| 2004-06-29 6:39:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 yeh you made it clear in #10, and I replied before I read #10. So? I'm one of the few who have been around Rantburg long enough to remember the original.

Post what you think, but it was just as crap then as it is now.

Can't you think up something new to write over the space of a year?

Oh and by the way: moderate muslims are no myth. I happen to know some. One is a woman who doesn't wear a burqa or a hijab and who works as a designer on a magazine.

And what are those MUSLIM turks doing facing a beheading in Iraq right now?

What were those MUSLIMS doing helping the Australian Federal Police find the Bali Bombers?

The facts belie your ignorant position. You came across as young and excitable when you first posted on Rantburg but reading this site doesn't seem to have educated you. You've just become arrogant instead of wise.

You're a bigot pure and simple and your 'support' hurts the very people you pretend to help: the civilised, democratic western world.

BTW: I'm no more off topic than YOU because you posted AGAIN your boring and stupid analogy, so I responded to it.

If that is off-topic then YOU started it!

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 7:21:05 AM|| 2004-06-29 7:21:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 I sympathize - your cupboard is pretty bare when it comes to scraping up examples of the anti-jihadi acts by Muslims. Must be 5 or 6 in that quiver - so you have to economize and use no more that 1 or 2 pathetic examples per post, lest you be guilty of the recycling you seem so upset about.

Yep, it's a repost. I made it clear and explained why I recycled it. And out of the woodwork you popped to prove we are still beset by fools and tools.

Pray-tell, what is your knowledge? You "happen to know some" you say. Lol! Shit, that makes you an expert right up there with Pipes! Well, HELL, Fill Us In! Dazzle us with their anti-jihadi acts? I'm prepared to be all amazed! Lol!

Sigh. You say I'm a bigot. And you, from what you've said, are apparently still the same lazy ill-informed but opinionated lame apologist you were a year ago. At least I actually know WTF I'm talking about, first-hand over years - while you, on the other hand, are the poor soul who must bask in the reflected light of your selected writers. Those whose dribbles and crumbs you have chosen to accept as truth. How pathetic.

When you know something - actually know something about Islam, puhleeze feel free to post it. Thus far, you're just jacking-off as voyeurs are wont to do.

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 7:41:21 AM|| 2004-06-29 7:41:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Anon1 - Is this the same Anon1 from a year ago? Or a pretender. I'll know by where you say you're located...

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 8:06:58 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:06:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Excellent analogy .com. I'll believe in the myth of moderate Islam when I see true heartfelt apologies or even sympathy for the victims of the Islamists' beastial behavior, which has been on display for all the world to see. And yet no outrage from the"moderate" community.
Until then, I'll take it that since the moongods own book says to kill the likes of me, I'll suppose that's what all muslims believe.
I won't subordinate my own survival instinct to some PC bullshit.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-06-29 8:07:04 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:07:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 JM - Agreed. It's all right there in the posted story - my repost was just giving it a name and classification from a Western POV - so I was a tad suprised that an idiotarian would immediately jump out and get huffy-puffy defensive. Sadly, it confirmed I (we) should be worried that we're not winning the war on PC-ism.

How 'bout next year, when we get to discuss the remarkable progress of Kurdistan - and the equally remarkable bloody hell of Iraq Al Aribiya? Those will be the days, eh? Lol!

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 8:16:03 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:16:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Some time ago I did a typology of Islam.

The people at this site are, what I called a type 6 Muslim. People that Anon1 would like to be allies are type 1= humanistic and type 2 = secularist muslims. These together are about 20-50% of all muslims. Type 6 muslims are about 0.5% to about 1% of all muslims.

It would be nice to get the type 1 and type 2s on our side (a lot of them are at least partially there). However, this is easier said than done. Among other reasons, the type 1s and 2s are afraid of the type 6s and for good reason.

Posted by mhw 2004-06-29 8:21:47 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:21:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 I think the Turks may take a dim view of Kurdistan, Iraq Al Aribiya will be a hell hole no doubt, but more likely be annexed to Iran.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-06-29 8:34:10 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:34:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Not gonna waste Fred's bandwidth attacking you, have said it all.

Suffice to say I did not need to extensively list every single moderate muslim person to prove my point, the couple of examples suffice to disprove that you can lump all muslims in the Islamist handbasked.

Have extensively argued already WHY it is destructive to our cause in previous posts. I let that stand.

Seems I want actual victory more than you do.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 8:34:43 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:34:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Seems I want actual victory more than you do.

Being an apologist for lunatics isn't the way to get it done.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-06-29 8:42:39 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:42:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 mhw - If you had solid documentation for the estimates you use, I'd be very impressed. Plus, I would suggest that where you are taking your sample is crucial. If you suggest that world-wide types 1 & 2 comprise as much as 50% (.6 Billion people), I would say you're dreaming. Proximity to concentrations (strongholds of actives) is the key, IMHO. Just as my little piece indicates that the disease reaches critical mass - and then all connected are effectively doomed. It does, indeed, operate like a biological pathogen.

So what does the density / distribution map of Islam look like?

The further away from a concentration a Muslim is, the more passively he / she can act without fear. But the outposts, those enclaves of Muslims who are isolated have been targeted by the Wahhabis (Recall the moskkk takeover story from about a month ago?) as ideal places to put their imams - radicalize these outliers and aggressively recruit to build new centers of power and bases of operation.

Just observations... and a challenge! Maybe you can apply your expertise to the density / distribution idea!

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 8:46:06 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:46:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 JM - #25 - You think Iran will be intact under Mad Mullah Management in a year? Lol! I dunno if that makes you an optimist or a pessimist, but I find that idea highly unlikely!

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 8:54:21 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:54:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 .com, feel a bit bad as you have done a lot for rantburg, but STOP HELPING THE ENEMY by feeding their propaganda machine!!!!

Yes I want actual victory over the Islamofascist.

JerseyMike: I am in NO way an apologist for Islamofascists. I have consistently written that they need to be exterminated by any means necessary. Annihilate Islamofascist mullahs. Drop bombs on their head. Have snipers shoot them. Even 80-year-old mullahs preaching Islamofascist bile from a wheelchair. I want them dead.

But you cannot lump every muslim person in with the Islamofascists.

You know this to be true. Even the most rudimentary brain activity shows this to be so.

If we want to REVERSE the trend towards Islamofascism then we have to play the propaganda / psyops / cultural warfare game.

We have to support the moderate muslim voices at every turn against the fanatics. Yes the Humanist, Secular muslim people! And YES they exist.

God I feel like an idiot typing that! Does anybody bother to type self-evident truths?

SOME muslim people are secular and humanist.

ergo not ALL muslim people are Islamofascist enemies.

Even if there were only 3 muslim people in all the world who were secular humanists, this syllogism would be correct.

For all the IslamoKKK violence in the world, it OBVIOUSLY isn't all muslim people actively DOING it, or even the majority. They might tacitly agree, or not care but that is different to actively strapping on a bomb belt. They can be shifted.

But every time you rubbish the entire muslim religion, and lump every muslim person in that basket you make those people HARDER to shift.

Ain't rocket science people. Whose side are you REALLY on?

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 8:56:16 AM|| 2004-06-29 8:56:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Ooh! Ooh! New argument/flame war! And I can get in before it really gets going!

No, in all seriousness now, Anon1, I think you said it yourself right here:
For all the IslamoKKK violence in the world, it OBVIOUSLY isn't all muslim people actively DOING it, or even the majority. They might tacitly agree, or not care but that is different to actively strapping on a bomb belt.

I realize, as I'm sure we all do, that there are moderate Muslims. But you see, the problem is that as long as they don't stand up and stop their brethren, then they are giving their endorsement for those actions to be carried out in their name. As long as they stand by in silence while these jihadis kill in the name of Islam, they, part of Islam, will be associated with those acts. I agree that Islam must undergo serious reform, but I agree with .com that in its current state it is something akin to a disease, in the same way that a Hitler or Stalin personality cult is akin to a disease. The optimist in me believes that Islam can make the changes that other religions have made - but the realist/cynic isn't so sure, because some of those changes require a long, hard look at some of what has come to be basic tenets of the religion. I, too, have known one or two moderate Muslims in my time, but unless they get fired up and ready to take back their religion, they will remain in the minority.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-06-29 9:04:42 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:04:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 You say you're done - then post this tired repeated disclaimer.

Okay, Anon1, one more pass:
Read the piece. Really read it. Point out the factual flaws in it. I wrote this after years of first-hand observation - and repeated attempts to convert me. I know what I'm talking about.

As you read it, forget for a second we're talking about a religion. It's about the effects of the disease. It IS a disease. The observations in the piece regards its virulence and actual effects on those afflicted are truthful observations.

If you can figure out how to neutralize its spread, how to uninfect / cure a person indictinated from birth who doesn't even understand the basic underpinnings of the concepts you talk about, or how to take their children away from them (Do this for 2 generations and you can cure ANY social insanity, such as Jooo hatred) then tell us how.

The piece I posted is far less the bigotry you slathered on me than it is a honest description of Islam in action. I am unimpressed with your arguments - and I am sorry to say that. These people are never going to be a help in our fight against their brothers. At the very least, they will be passive support in funding, hiding, and logistics. When it is finished, one way or the other, none of them will be truly innocent. But many truly innocent people will have died. You figure it out.

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 9:10:41 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:10:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 That is some good reasoning and logic, Doctor.

Doctor Who?

What do YOU think is the best tactic for US to follow to try to maximise the chances of helping the reformers get control of Islam?

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 9:11:04 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:11:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 .com: you have years of first hand observation that ALL muslims are Islamofascists.

Oh you MUST be right then! Silly me!

Every person who reads your posts, you dolt, has most likely met somebody who is muslim and who DOESN'T fit the definition of an Islamofascist.

Or else they will have read a newspaper article for example the one describing how muslim turks are about to be beheaded by Islamofascists in Iraq.

So evidently they are not all lumped in the same dumb dumb basket are they?

That is the problem with denying self-evident truths. They are self-evident.

I have met the Islamofascist al-Muhajiroun brigade and I have met moderate muslims. They are chalk and cheese.

And most people reading this thread will have had similar experiences though most likely they won't have actually MET a real-life spittle frothing islamofascist zealot, only a moderate. Why? because there are statistically less of them - especially in Western countries.

Thank goodness. Because if there were statistically more of them, we'd be in worse trouble and a few more disastrous bombings would have happened by now.

I want to keep their numbers down thanks very much.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 9:18:40 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:18:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 We have to support the moderate muslim voices at every turn against the fanatics. Yes the Humanist, Secular muslim people! And YES they exist.

They'll get my support when they start doing something. Right now, their silence sounds a hell of a lot like approval.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-06-29 9:28:22 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-06-29 9:28:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 Doctor Who?

I wondered how long it would take someone to get around to asking . . . all I can say is, "Exactly!" ;)

In all honesty, with all of my reading on the subject - a bit of both sides, mind you - I really don't know how. I don't have the firsthand experience that .com has, being both too young to have traveled much and without the wisdom that additional years would bring to the puzzle (and enough troubles to keep me occupied without having to think about such matters; sometimes I don't know why I keep doing it!), but I have tried to give it a lot of thought.

It's a tough situation. We cannot force them to do it - nor should we, for reasons that I hope would be extremely obvious - but neither can we just sit by, because that would give the jihadis a free hand. Given what I know about the tribal mentality, I question the wisdom of supporting select clerics, although that might be something of a viable option. Really, though, what we're doing now is about the only thing that we can, in my admittedly limited viewpoint, do: engage the jihadis, kill them wherever we can find them, and try and give some of our systems a chance in the Middle East. I know we're not making friends by doing that, both there and here, and there's no short supply of people willing to point that out, like Michael Moore (who, if he were to die tomorrow, would free up half of the world's food surplus to feed starving millions in a dozen Third World countries). So interference on our part, however difficult and apparently counterproductive an option, is about the only option we have. For the moment, we're plugging the dam, so to speak, but the moderates have to wake up, take a serious look at their religion, and reform and take it back - i.e. fix the cracked dam before we, uh (the analogy's getting strained, here!), take a giant vacuum and . . . suck up all the water behind it? Okay, it got absurd in the end, but my point is that they have to fix what's broken before we end up solving the problem by killing almost every jihadi who comes our way - and there are a number of ways that could come about, but I think I've stolen enough of Fred's bandwidth for the moment.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-06-29 9:34:22 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:34:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 Robert Crawford: you could start by supporting

THESE muslims

http://www.secularislam.org/

Who are furthering our victory FAR more... exponentially more than .com

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 9:37:40 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:37:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 "I have met the Islamofascist al-Muhajiroun brigade"

How, um, convenient that this little jewel pops out now. Who'da thunk it? But, plop!, there it is.

"Well shut my mouth!", as my Grandmother used to say. Yewbetcha. I guess that wraps it up. Assume the best of all Muslims and you'll be safe - we'll all be safe. You can trust them. Anon1 and Daniel Pipes say so.

Fin.

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 9:39:13 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:39:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 Doctor Who, I agree with you.

Your logic and reasoning isn't a waste of bandwidth either.

It's an important topic, and that's what Rantburg is set up for: so people can debate and post news items on what's important.

I agree with everything you've written only I would add (as above lengthily repeated) that I would support the moderates to increase our chances.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 9:41:14 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:41:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 . com:

re: comment #38

GAZE

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-29 9:43:44 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:43:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 Anon, you said you met someone from the al-Muhajiroun brigade. What was it like?

Posted by The Doctor 2004-06-29 10:36:19 AM|| 2004-06-29 10:36:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 Facts
1. Indonesia, the most populous muslim nation in the world is about to have an election. The Islamists look set to lose.
2. Algeria has had an election. The secularists won. The state is bitterly fighting the Islamist menace.
3. The Afghan army is far ahead of where it was 12 months ago and is fighting the Taliban
4. The Iraqi Police and ICDC are ahead of where they were just 2 months ago. They are fighting the Islamists. There was an article in the WaPo over the weekend that Iraqi CIVILIANS were attacking jihadis with the civilians personal weapons, in Baquba.

How many jihadis have American killed? How many jihadis have been killed by the Algerian army, by the Pakistani state, by the Afghans, by Iraqi forces, by the Yemenis, etc. It would interesting to so the numbers.

The fact is that a very large number of jihadi corpses are directly attributable to muslims fighting against the jihadis. True a year ago, true today. And where jihadis are killed by kufrs - from Iraq, to Gaza, to Chechnya - we have relied on muslim informants.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-29 11:17:12 AM|| 2004-06-29 11:17:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 .com

Obviously I don't have solid documentation. I have various estimates of subsets (e.g., the estimates of Ahmiyada in India (they fit into the 'humanist' portion since they have explicitly renounced the violent parts of the Koran - and the number of Ahmiyada is growing faster than most other strains of Islam; a anti Ahmiyada site by another Muslim is at: http://www.alhafeez.org/rashid/british-jewish/contents.htm); the number of votes for the secular Islamic party in Malaysia would be in the secular Islam group, etc. ). The group represented by http://www.secularislam.org are fairly small (after all not that many people in the Islamic world have the internet).

estimates are just that

Posted by mhw 2004-06-29 11:42:50 AM|| 2004-06-29 11:42:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 Anon: you do realize that the author of secularislam.org wrote a book titled "Why I am not a muslim," don't you?
How does that make him even a secular muslim?

The myth of Moderate Islam is that like that elusive dream of Sheit that don't stink.

Posted by therien 2004-06-29 11:42:58 AM|| 2004-06-29 11:42:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 #42 Liberalhawk

And where jihadis are killed by kufrs - from Iraq, to Gaza, to Chechnya - we have relied on muslim informants.
and one must understand that a lot of them are not pro-kufr but have an axe to grind against those on whom they inform.

Posted by Cynic 2004-06-29 12:01:35 PM|| 2004-06-29 12:01:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 .com

do you even know what Islam means? If you did, you would reevaluate the anathematical connectionbetween a disiese born out of a misplaced psyche, and a religion which , if understood, actually reveals the cure!

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 12:36:03 PM|| 2004-06-29 12:36:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 .com

'and repeated attempts to convert me. I know what I'm talking about.'

This is basic, surely not from a person who knows what they are talking about?

..its impossible to convert anyone to anything, 'conversion' occurs in the heart, and only God judges. Christian Jew and Muslim in the Koran are archetypes..if you intrepret them definitively it leads to the evident misunderstandings and divisions.

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 12:54:48 PM|| 2004-06-29 12:54:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 hehe! ima luv a good flaming thread. :)

Posted by muck4doo 2004-06-29 12:59:02 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2004-06-29 12:59:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 do you even know what Islam means?
Half <------ jumping up and down in seat!
I know!
It means kill the joooooooooooos and win free prize!

ima ready for my extra credit question

Posted by Half 2004-06-29 1:02:25 PM|| 2004-06-29 1:02:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 xtra credit question....

can a 'joooo' display muslim and christian characteristics? and a Christian, can he display jewish and muslim archetypes... if so where goes your comment???

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 1:07:28 PM|| 2004-06-29 1:07:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 oooh! oooh! ima know! (sorry half i am steal you xtra credit)

they all have in comon they penis are snipped.

i win!!!

Posted by muck4doo 2004-06-29 1:16:49 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2004-06-29 1:16:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 LOL Mucky is the winner!

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-06-29 1:25:18 PM|| 2004-06-29 1:25:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 .com

'The disease process begins by destroying individualism, identity, and intellectual curiosity - replacing them with total compliance and acceptance of the authoritarian.'

You gotta luv the irony!!

Roger Bacon, widely regarded as founder of modern philosophical thought in the west, quoted the 11th centuary muslim scholar Ibn Sina (avicenna - medic philospher etc) as the greatest thinker since Aristotle. Bacons dualist ideas are very much a continuation of Ibn Sina.

So you can thank that disiese ridden human, whom by your definition suffered most acutely, for the dialectic you carry today.

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 1:27:11 PM|| 2004-06-29 1:27:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 And where jihadis are killed by kufrs - from Iraq, to Gaza, to Chechnya - we have relied on muslim informants.
and one must understand that a lot of them are not pro-kufr but have an axe to grind against those on whom they inform.

a good cynical point of view. Now tell me, how many of the people in Sadrs Mahdi army were just street thugs looking for cash and loot? Is Prince Nayef truely an Islamist, or trying to use the Islamists to advance his own ambition. It seems that when a muslim supports the Jihadis some of us count that as evidence that muslims are islamist without looking too closely at motivation, while when a muslim works with us that doesnt count if his "heart isnt pure".

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-29 1:28:43 PM|| 2004-06-29 1:28:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 homework tonite kids is to look up the word archetype.

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 1:33:00 PM|| 2004-06-29 1:33:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 booboo you shuld know the bacons were lizard peples.

Posted by muck4doo 2004-06-29 1:34:45 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2004-06-29 1:34:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 moral judgements aside..
his ideas are the basis of rationalism today.

yes i did go to your site, and yes im still reeling from the woman givin birth to a frog story :)

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 1:40:07 PM|| 2004-06-29 1:40:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 if moderate islam is not a myth then why do they not take a stand against fundatmentalist?

Posted by Dan 2004-06-29 2:23:46 PM|| 2004-06-29 2:23:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 a fundamentalist is someone who follows the fundamentals of their belief.

A fundamentalist blacksmith, uses the fundamentals of metal science to procure his ware?

so whats a fundamentalist?

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 2:38:01 PM|| 2004-06-29 2:38:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 It is fortunate that the Americans are a "live-and-let-live" people and extremely slow to anger. But as Walter Russell Meade indicates in The Jacksonian Tradition http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/845102/posts, Allah wouldn't like what happens next once Americans become angry. If it is pushed to become a "clash of civilizations" he and his followers will be erased from the memory of man.

Posted by RWV 2004-06-29 2:44:36 PM|| 2004-06-29 2:44:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 'As long as they stand by in silence while these jihadis kill in the name of Islam, they, part of Islam, will be associated with those acts'

Coundnt a muslim say the same, about Mcdonald eating , Karaoke enjoying, sport loving westerners.

'As long as they stand in silence and let their rulers occupy foreign land, killing in the name of democracy, they, voters in that democracy will be associated with those acts'

i think people are not so black and white in their judgements, or at least i hope they are not.

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 2:45:06 PM|| 2004-06-29 2:45:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Boob, there is a difference between lopping someone's head off and eating at a McDonald's.

But thanks for pointing out that you are against democracy. Now we know precisely where you're coming from.

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-29 2:49:38 PM|| 2004-06-29 2:49:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 yes because all muslims lop heads and all westerners eat mcdonals...

my point exactly

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 2:54:12 PM|| 2004-06-29 2:54:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 Now we know precisely where you're coming from?

Where am i coming from? what label can you box me with today? Cmon theirs loads out their, fundamentalist, bigot, anti-west, secular, liberal democrat, modernist??? They are only labels my friend and they rarely apply so precisely to the subjects they are thrown at

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 2:57:02 PM|| 2004-06-29 2:57:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 #30 ... For all the IslamoKKK violence in the world, it OBVIOUSLY isn't all muslim people actively DOING it, or even the majority. They might tacitly agree, or not care but that is different to actively strapping on a bomb belt. They can be shifted.

Anon1, this statement is totally incorrect.

To "tacitly agree, or not care" about what fanatical elements of your own religion are doing is tantamount to outright support. Silence is consent.

I will repeat for the umpteenth time; Where are all of the moderate Muslim clergy who are willing to gloriously martyr themselves by going into the regions of jihadist militancy and preaching the critical importance of secular coexistence?

[crickets chirping]

Any lack of vociferous, open protest now equates to active participation. The jihadists are the ones who have driven this equation's necessary restructuring, not secularism.

#58 if moderate islam is not a myth then why do they not take a stand against fundatmentalist?

Like Dan said, where are they? I'm hoping Fred will step back in and remind everyone that there are moderate Muslims in this world today.

At the same time, I am obliged to argue that any moderate Muslims have a very short window of opportunity to begin making a much more vigorous and visible stand against jihadist Islam.

#35 They'll get my support when they start doing something. Right now, their silence sounds a hell of a lot like approval.

Bingo, RC. It has already been mentioned elsewhere that a wedge must be driven in between moderate Muslims and their jihadist counterparts.

I propose that the only effective wedge is DEATH. Those moderates who lean a little to closely to the jihadist side will be scooped into the void by such a wedge's action. If moderate Islam continues displaying such an uninspired response to their entire religion being threatened from within, then other cultures must act from without.

Killing the jihadists is the only sure way of sending an unequivocal message to all Islam of what awaits further inaction. As I mentioned initially, the superpowers simply do not have any time to waste in attempts to alter the worldview of those who silently or actively condone global cultural genocide.

We will segregate moderate Islam from its toxic counterpart by killing the jihadists. There is no other way. Persuasion didn't work with the Nazis and it will not work here either. Islam faces two choices, reformation or death. Theocratic ascendancy is not even an option and those within Islam who believe it is must die immediately.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-29 3:48:35 PM|| 2004-06-29 3:48:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 They are only labels my friend and they rarely apply so precisely to the subjects they are thrown at

booboo, you neglect to recognize that we are faced with applying labels, not to ordinary everyday people, but a new brand of Nazis and those within their own political and religious organ who refuse to condemn or expell them.

What amount of Islamic Nazism is considered "acceptable?" What else can one do but simply identify the Islamic Nazi types and kill all who actively participate or silently refuse to interfere with their atrocities?

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-29 3:55:14 PM|| 2004-06-29 3:55:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 its impossible to convert anyone to anything, 'conversion' occurs in the heart, and only God judges. Christian Jew and Muslim in the Koran are archetypes..if you intrepret them definitively it leads to the evident misunderstandings and divisions.

That's fine, but I think if you took the time to read that quote and think about it, you'd see that .com was talking about Muslims waving a Qu'ran in front of him and telling him what a great ride Islam was, what with the 72 ~~virgins~~ grapes available for martyrs ~~with females available upon request to Allah~~. All religions do that to some degree; the question is how much.

If you did, you would reevaluate the anathematical connectionbetween a disiese born out of a misplaced psyche, and a religion which , if understood, actually reveals the cure!

Don't make me laugh. Islam in its current form is a sickness, like .com said. Going back to the Qu'ran and reinterpreting it literally isn't going to work. They've been doing it for two hundred years, and if it hasn't worked up to now, it's not going to. Any more literally and they'll be contacting Mohammed with Ouija boards to ask him for advice. For this conflict to end peacefully, Muslims need to start thinking for themselves and stop letting the mullahs simply tell them what to do. They need to stop being robots and start actively integrating the modern world with their faith. Yes, there are some who have done it, but I fear there are far more who haven't, and who would secretly like to see their religion replace the West's way of life. The Islamic world hasn't produced anything of worth except for oil - which was there already - for a very, very long time. And going back to the Qu'ran isn't the solution, more religion isn't the cure. It perpetuates the problem. It needs to be rethought, not revived.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-06-29 4:01:59 PM|| 2004-06-29 4:01:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 Wait, let me guess, Booboo . . . you're Muslim, aren't you?

Posted by The Doctor 2004-06-29 4:02:53 PM|| 2004-06-29 4:02:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 The civilized world will one day wake up to the fact, jihadism is a death cult.

Those involved should be treated as anyone with a severe metal illness, if they be captured, prior to blowing themselves up in their suicidal rituals based on cultic teachings of awaiting virgins and the rest of the spoon fed rubbish.

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-06-29 4:16:03 PM|| 2004-06-29 4:16:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 i know what .com meant, and both he and you have a point, my point was to show the comminality between the monotheistic religions rather than the differences...which is the fashion

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 4:24:45 PM|| 2004-06-29 4:24:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 'It needs to be rethought, not revived'

thats the million dollar question....

Posted by booboo 2004-06-29 4:28:31 PM|| 2004-06-29 4:28:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 Going back to the Qu'ran and reinterpreting it literally isn't going to work. They've been doing it for two hundred years, and if it hasn't worked up to now, it's not going to

Most excellent point!!! Islam when it was a great civ, and later, when it was in decline but the decline was not yet severe, aggressively INTERPRETATED the Koran and Hadiths to adjust to new circumstances. The return to literalism was a desperate turn away FROM modernity. Its NOT the path of moderate Muslims, but of Wahabis. Maybe textual literalism was good for Christianity - Protestants and Catholics might disagree - but for Judaism modernization meant either A. Dispensing with parts of the original text (Reform) or B. Using interpretation to reconcile with modernity (conservative and Modern Orthodox) Islam is more like Judaism in this respect, I think.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-29 4:45:25 PM|| 2004-06-29 4:45:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 Not so fast with the moral equivalence, booboo!
The current world jihah is being led by the Sunni Waahab Saudis, who believe that all other believers are kafir and should be slaughtered because they are in Waahab eyes' "polytheists."
This goes for Shiites, as well as Christians, Jews, Buddists, Hindu, etc.
You've never seen a Christian killing Muslims because they wouldn't eat at McDonalds.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-29 4:47:47 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-29 4:47:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 what label can you box me with today?

How about..."boob".

Like I said, there's a difference between lopping someone's head off and eating at a McDonalds. If your head was chopped off in New York, I'd make my outrage known. If you died from eating a BigMac, I wouldn't give a crap. Try to use appropriate comparisons next time. Same goes for the "killing in the name of democracy" bit.

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-29 4:52:22 PM|| 2004-06-29 4:52:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 well i have heard of pogroms where Jews were forced to eat pork by christians, but no i dont have a link handy, and i dont suppose the pork eating was really the point.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-29 4:52:23 PM|| 2004-06-29 4:52:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Holy Cr...er, Cow!

Guess I'll have to hit the tip jar.

Christanity did forcibly convert or kill "unbelievers" in the dark ages when the Roman Church held sway over Europe. And the worst excesses of the Holy Inquisition took place in Spain, which had been fighting the Moors.

We seem to have outgrown that particular arrogance, for the most part, thanks mostly to secularisim and the democratic memes - although some Pentecostals and their ilk would like it otherwise.

It's Fundamentalism that's the problem, and it's love affair with supposedly Perfect Knowledge.

ALL books are written by men, folks. Sorry.

Posted by mojo 2004-06-29 5:19:22 PM|| 2004-06-29 5:19:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 Honestly, folks-

When have you ever had a discussion with someone convinced his religion was the solution to the world's problems who could actually focus on the acts we do in the HERE AND NOW--forget the "raisins" (interesting how sex, that forbidden act of carnality, is a reward in the fleshless kingdom of heaven?), forget the salvation of others and the power and the glory, blah, blah, blah... If you have a faith, fine, but the problem starts when your imagined afterlife with God depends on real aggressions against human beings. That is the seed from which terrorism starts (Inquisition or jihad).

Posted by jules 187 2004-06-29 5:29:31 PM|| 2004-06-29 5:29:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 "The one who says âwe should fight against terrorismâ, he is fighting against Islam . . . the one who wants to avoid terrorism, is avoiding Islam" = view of terrorists.

If the others get a taste of democracy/freedom Kurd-style, the view of terrorists won't seem very appealing. Adherence to extremism loses it's lure in the face of freedom and economic increase.

Otherwise I'd agree with .com: "The disease process begins by destroying individualism, identity, and intellectual curiosity - replacing them with total compliance and acceptance of the authoritarian. The advanced state of the illness commonly expresses itself through repression, brutality, blind hatred, and psychopathic insanity."

The antibiotic-like cure for the "disease" is freedom and economic advantages for the majority.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-29 6:35:02 PM|| 2004-06-29 6:35:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 Many Iraqis and others in moslem countries actually support freedom . They hate the terrorists too.

Will be amazing to see what happens in Iran. They've had a lot of freedom before and can remember, plus, compared with Iraqis, there are so many thousands of Iranians in the US, who like it just fine. Bye-bye mullahs!

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-29 6:41:25 PM|| 2004-06-29 6:41:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 Wow. Wotta waste.

As for Anon1, I close with the observation that when her lame, thread-bare apologist tripe and Daniel Pipes knob-job and reached the "repeat endlessly" point, she suddenly and conveniently pulls some "street cred" out of her ass. No one seems to have said anything about it, but I say it's a pure lie. She needed to save her ego, so she invented what she realized she lacked: credibility. Bullshit. As for her "GAZE" post - who the fuck knows what that means. I suggest, however, that TRANCE might be more accurate. Jump off Ayers Rock.

Now booboo - I wouldn't change a thing about your nym - booboo fits fine. Your job was to redirect discussion off into safe debatable territory - and provide the requisite moral equivalency where things got a little dicey. My favorite bit was where you say conversions occur in the heart. Gosh that's sweet. Wrong, but really sweet. Most Muslims are born into captivity. By the time they've reached an age where they might actually be inclined to question - as most here in the West would understand - it's too late. They were Muslim from birth and indoctrinated as soon as language was acquired. Just as I said in the post. The post that you actively ignored.

The greatness of Islam. I suggest that they became "great" by the sword, not by any impact of intellectual greatness. In fact, as JFM and others conversant with history have pointed out repeatedly, conquered populations provided much (most?)of the âgreatnessâ. I do not discount that they made some contributions, but "great" should be reserved for great contributors - and Islam has taken far more than it has contributed to mankind. Pfeh to any great Islamic age. The real Islam, the one skimmed over in current history books, did not spread due to the inherent truths or intellectual prowess of Islamic scholars. It was spread by the sword - just as it is today. 1400 years of stagnant, barbaric, regressive, and repressive brutality is Islam's true legacy - and current offering. Anon1 and booboo should make sure they learn the âpositionâ so they donât inconvenience their Islamic Brothers when their time comes.

Being attacked is old hat. The best part is usually, and it held to form today, is that the attackers do exactly what they accuse you of doing. Arguing with a shrieker is something I normally try to avoid. Should've done so this time - and just let the apologists argue against the post. I apologize to all for not doing so, today. It says what I wanted to say - and 2 or 5 or 10 years from now, it will be so obvious people will think that writing it down to be silly. But it's not silly today, is it? My question about our progress - or the lack of it - was answered conclusively. The PC tools and fools are still busily trying to get us all to lie back and enjoy it, nothing to worry about, nothing to see here. Move along. I disagree. I stand by the post and those who disagree can either address the post or fuck off. No apologies for that statement will be forthcoming.

Posted by .com 2004-06-29 8:27:31 PM|| 2004-06-29 8:27:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 It's Fundamentalism that's the problem, and it's love affair with supposedly Perfect Knowledge.

ALL books are written by men, folks. Sorry.

Nothing to apologize for, mojo. You have hit the nailhead.

Islam has taken far more than it has contributed to mankind.

If one examines the astounding collective wealth of knowledge vis engineering, architecture, cuisine, astronomy, medicine and other profoundly fundamental basics that Islamic (not Islam itself) scholars contributed to world history, your statement is not entirely true, .com.

This is not to say that the disruption of civilization which jihadist Islam is currently imposing upon the international community simply negates so much of Islamic contributions preceding this blight. Quite frankly, it d@mn well is and in an unbridled fashion.

I feel that your condemnation of fundamentalist Islam's meme via a pathological model is mostly spot on, .com. Your attempts to lump all Islam into this tainted catagory might be premature, but they are not entirely unwarranted. Militant Islam is rapidly negating all of its religion's current and historical worth.

It is not just those who profess aggressive global jihad that are doing so. The thundering silence of so many other putatively peaceful Muslims are equally potent in limning out Islam as the world's enemy.

As a devout agnostic, I can no longer summon any sympathy for a religion which has gone out of its way to make enemies with all other cultures and faiths. So be it. Islam must reform or die, no choice, no middle ground, no half-way measures, no alternatives. Authentically and genuinely renouce global jihad or meet your doom. If Islam as a whole is not able to do so, I will take up arms and ensure that it perishes from the face of this earth.

Posted by Zenster 2004-06-29 8:53:47 PM|| 2004-06-29 8:53:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God given to men.
(Jews do too, at least when it comes to the Old Testament.)
Alas, the same cannot be said for the dear old Koran.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-29 9:39:19 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-29 9:39:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 Idea of the day:

Mother Of All Diseases = MOAD

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-06-29 9:51:39 PM|| 2004-06-29 9:51:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 Mike S., you are an evil man for getting this one started, I applaud you. The rest of y'all please take care of Fred's mortgage.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-06-29 10:47:51 PM|| 2004-06-29 10:47:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#85
Jarhead, I appreciate your words in my defense the other day.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-06-29 10:56:59 PM|| 2004-06-29 10:56:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 The trolls keep coming back to "Christian fundamentalists." When I think of Christian fundamentalists, I think of the Amish, or idiots like Jim and Tammy Faye. The pinheads who try to shoot up abortion clinics have represented a pretty minor problem, that's been taken care of by the cops.

Islamic fundos have been a plague not only on Christians and Jews, but also on other Muslims, Hindoos, Buddhists, and anybody else they can get next to.

When people try to convert me to their religion I get bored. When they demand I convert to their religion or die, I get angry. We're not trying to forcibly convert Muslims, except to the idea of individual liberty. The same isn't true of the Islamists.

Posted by Fred 2004-06-30 12:04:41 AM|| 2004-06-30 12:04:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#87 Dr Who:

I met some guys from Al Muhajiroun in 2002 when I was travelling in Britain.

I went to the infamous Trafalgar Square Rally they held (long time ago now, but it was sometime in the summer)

The main three groups of people there were Al Muhajiroun, the media (swarming with them) and police protecting the safety of the Islamofascists and their right to free speech(swarming with them, too).

They had big banners up, which were anti-Israel, and pro-Islam.

They had a series of speakers plus a load of stalls.

I was most struck by how well they had pinpointed the different intellectual cross-currents of Western culture. Each stall had various pamphlets and photocopied 'factsheets' to give out.

Each was on a different topic but with one common theme: Islam is the answer.

Lying politicians? Islam is the answer (a big comparison between the evils of democracy and the joys of a theocratic taliban-style state).

Sexism? Islam is the answer ( a big comparison between how Western society objectifies women and condones sexist porn, and rape and that Islam gives women dignity)

Environmentalism? Islam is the answer
Communism? Islam is the answer
Capitalism? Islam is the answer

and so on for every ism you could think of.

I argued with a few of them. They were all young males, and they all were extremely articulate in English. They all had degrees: computer science, engineering were the most popular. none had arts degrees for example. all practical.

I argued with them logically but all their arguments were circuitous and led back to the mantra that Islam is true, Islam is hte answer.

They straight out told me to my face that women had more rights under Islam and when challenged on why that isn't true in Saudi, they said that was because Saudi wasn't a purely Islamic state.

A man came up with a placard that had the picture of someone who had been murdered by Islamists. It said that Islam = murder, and he walked around and they got really angry at him.

They were far angrier at him than they were by my arguing logic and facts with them. They couldn't handle him at all. He didn't engage with them just criticised Islam with pictures and printed words.

that's the story of my day. Then I went into the art gallery that was just behind and had a look at some artworks, then I went home. I took some pamphlets with me but unfortunately as i was travelling around i soon lost them or threw them away. wish i kept them for refrerence, would have been useful.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-30 8:58:39 AM|| 2004-06-30 8:58:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#88 FYI

*GAZE*

Is what you do to trolls instead of wasting bandwidth by feeding them.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-30 9:05:23 AM|| 2004-06-30 9:05:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#89 Zhang Fei, Old Spook, Bulldog, Liberalhawk... you were all my old favourites that kept me coming back.

At least you had something interesting and useful to say, and when you tried to be funny you actually were.

The comments on this site have degenerated.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-30 9:15:40 AM|| 2004-06-30 9:15:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#90 DOCTOR: forgot to add: the main thing the Al Muhajiroun brigade were after that day is convincing everyone it was a righteous cause to make Britain an Islamic state governed by Sharia law. They said this to me, admitted it plainly.

That was the most gobsmacking thing about the day.

Alaska Paul... forgot to mention you in the other post, you, too are my old fave who kept me coming back.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-30 9:22:33 AM|| 2004-06-30 9:22:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#91 I don't know about the comments degenerating; some of them are pretty good. Does seem to me there's more polarization than before, perhaps.

Anyway, thanks for the story. It does shed some light on your position, although I cannot help but think that had you met them in different circumstances, they wouldn't have been quite as nice. The fact that they wouldn't listen to logic is a major clue, and in my mind is the main reason .com's analogy of disease is accurate: the level of devotion that these people show to Islam, to the exclusion of all logic and reason, is staggering. Even some of the students at the Christian college I attend aren't that impervious to logic. Admittedly, they do have some difficulty at times with some ideas, but it's nowhere near the level that Muslims often display. If Islam is the answer, they should explain how, not just state it. There is always something wrong with a group that cannot handle a critic of what they believe in/stand for, and Islam is notorious for its calls for the deaths of critics/loud cries of "Racism!" and such when someone points out basic flaws in their beliefs.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-07-01 12:43:17 PM|| 2004-07-01 12:43:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Anonymous5539 2004-06-29 1:16:54 AM|| 2004-06-29 1:16:54 AM|| Front Page Top

01:16 Anonymous5539
11:36 jules 187
11:10 ConservativeView
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