Article

2004-01-07 Middle East

Israel Identifies 28 Outposts for Removal

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Posted by Steve White 2004-01-07 12:18:36 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The number of settlements in question aside, Israel is actually dismantling some of them. Contrast this with the Palestinians, who haven't even made any kind of effort to dismantle the terrorist organizations in their territory.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-1-7 10:32:39 AM|| 2004-1-7 10:32:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 These are Illegal settlements: They've got to be dismantled in order to prove that Israel can deliver its end of any bargain, irrespective of what the PA actually delivers.

My views are expressed here, here, here, and here. In summary: Dismantling ANY settlement will coalesce Iraeli opinion and finally reveal a clear majority in favor of a specific course of action. I think that's been lacking.

Posted by Ptah 2004-1-7 2:39:17 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-1-7 2:39:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Israel needs to do more than that dismantle some illegal settlements to bolster their flagging reputation. OP floated the idea of reparations early this morning. Of course, he meant Palis paying Israel. I think Israel owes them much more - in land, in lives, in grief.

Put up the dang wall. Wherever they've decided. Call it the spoils of war, -whatever. Make it 100 ft. high. Keep the Palis out. (and the christians and kaffirs of any stripe) Only use the aid we currently give Israel for the rebuilding of communities for those 5 million people living in the aft-mentioned U.N. ghetto. (Or possibly resettle them in Iraq - nicely. Enough money has been lost to have done it 10 times over. Start with Saddam's dough.)

So much blood and trouble would have been avoided if they had simply BOUGHT the land they wanted to expand into. They started out doing that. Then got impatient. The salient fact is: Israel is going to have that land. Right now they've got the power, both there and here. They'd better use it wisely, because eyes are starting to squint in places where they haven't before. The rest of the world doesn't marvel or fume at Pali boomers. They know Israel brought it on itself. They're way ahead in the game. Maybe they'd be better off by doing some righteousness.

Posted by Scott 2004-1-7 4:20:43 PM|| 2004-1-7 4:20:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Scott, I will let others fill in the details, but one problem with your brilliant "buying the land" plan is that historically Paleos will not sell land to the Jews.

I don't care to comment on the rest of your "points" since your opinions are, um, WAAAY different from mine...

Posted by Carl in N.H. 2004-1-7 5:09:11 PM|| 2004-1-7 5:09:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Only use the aid we currently give Israel for the rebuilding of communities for those 5 million people living in the aft-mentioned U.N. ghetto.

What a great idea - contributing to our enemies at the expense of our friends. Punishing friends and rewarding enemies - what a concept.

The rest of the world doesn't marvel or fume at Pali boomers. They know Israel brought it on itself.

Opinions vary. Europeans hate Israel for the same old anti-Semitic reasons. The Third World dislikes Israel because they think of Israelis as white imperialists. Of course, there's also a lot of hypocrisy out there. China has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Tibetans (out of 5 million or so) without provoking anywhere the kind of animosity Israel has. China carries out executions of male relatives of Muslim guerrillas without taking any flak from the press. Pakistan killed hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshis during the war of secession, but today, it is as if no one had ever heard of incident.

But there is one respect in which Israel has brought these problems on itself. If it had taken the Pakistani or Chinese route of resolving the problem by slaughtering hundreds of thousands and crushing the will of the conquered people, Israel would not now be continuously on the hook. Syria killed 10,000 in Hama decades ago, and no one remembers it today. The Israeli tendency to bend over backwards in efforts to preserve enemy lives is what has cost Israel significant casualties, and will continue to do so in the future.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-1-7 6:28:09 PM|| 2004-1-7 6:28:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 So if people won't sell you their land, forcibly push them off? Sorry, Moses and Joshua are dead. The mandate from God to kill Canaanites has expired. Nowadays, civilized people usually purchase their retirement homes. Where I live, a man will protect his land with his life. The Pali response to Israeli expansion is both understandable and predictable. (Even still, I wish they would adopt a Ghandi approach, if CNN would broadcast the Israeli reaction - fat chance. But then didn't you already say, 'hypocrisy'?)

Slaughtering hundreds of thousands. This is a solution? Besides, Israel has tried it. (just a magnitude less. And it was done to them - a magnitude more)

As for friends, whatever happened to the USS Liberty and the Pollard intel? Israel is our friend only when it suits it's purpose. Otherwise they just use us. The Palis are definitely NOT our friends. No surprise there. We turned a blind eye to their mass graves. What I suggested is a solution.

Speaking of China, they are still in bondage today. They should be pariahs, except that we are whores for their cheap goods and the 'promise' of a large market. Follow the money (Ditto, Israel. I hear Sharon laughs about how they control America. Where are the Americans here?)
You could consider Pakistan in bondage also, if you switch the nonsense of communism to the nonsense of Islam. Syria? Syria has sucked ever since Hadadezer.

I don't think Israel bends over too dang far, considering they are the ones who invaded. And they are way ahead in the body count. I just don't think OUR young people should have to die protecting them from the ire they called down on themselves.

Posted by Scott 2004-1-7 9:33:07 PM|| 2004-1-7 9:33:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Scott: Besides, Israel has tried it. (just a magnitude less.

But the magnitude is the point. 6 million dead Jews are a pretty big statement. And the Jews weren't rebelling against German rule. The Palestinians have a de facto state, but instead of running it like other de facto states like Kurdistan and Taiwan, want to drive the Jews into the sea.

Scott: As for friends, whatever happened to the USS Liberty and the Pollard intel? Israel is our friend only when it suits it's purpose. Otherwise they just use us.

The Liberty canard is pure horsepoop. The Iraqis did something similar against the USS Stark in the 1980's, two decades later, when sensors were presumably more advanced. The Israelis asked the US about the Liberty's presence - when the US said no American ship was there, the Israelis starting attacking it, figuring it to be a false flag operation - a ploy from thousands of years ago - used most recently by the Germans in WWII. As to Jonathan Jay Pollard, I would be very surprised if we don't read our allies' mail and run agents against them. Pollard's sin was that he got discovered.

As to allies using us, how is this different from South Korea and Germany, where we've had our troops ready to act as speed bumps for decades? The US spent huge sums of money on rebuilding these and other countries, in Europe and in Asia, that was never repaid. The interest alone for some of these countries would be more than the aid we provide to Israel. And what about the fact that Israel provides the US a reliable invasion route in the Mid East in the event that events spiral out of control? Is any Muslim country similarly reliable?

Did France even provide us overflight rights during the retaliatory raids on Libya in the 1980's in return for losing tens of thousands of men while liberating France? Are South Koreans big fans of American troops because we lost 50,000 men keeping them free?

Note that we kept the Saudis independent of either Iranian or Iraqi rule and they financed 9/11. We freed the Afghans from Soviet rule and they repaid us with 9/11. We helped the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo and the Muslim world repaid us with 9/11.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-1-7 10:05:10 PM|| 2004-1-7 10:05:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Scott,
Don't twist my words you f***ing a$$hole. Hear this loud and clear: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE. The so-called PALESTINIAN is an Arab. He could be from any one of twelve or thirteen different countries. There may be a group of people who have equal, Biblical "rights" to the land of Israel, but the current crop ain't it, sh$$head.

To compare Israel's actions with that of the Arabs who have tried to totally exterminate every Jew in the world, is to act out the kind of sickness that filled Adolph Hitler. Sorry, you are not "supreme leader", and your stupid little rant isn't going to change the fact that Israel has just as much right to exist as Britain, France, Tibet, or New Zealand. The Israelis need to stop being nice, kick all the damned non-Israeli Arabs out of the territory allotted them under the Balfour Declaration, and totally destroy any country that tries to do anything about it. If you feel different, go take Rachel Corrie's place. I'm sure it'll give you a "warm fuzzy" - until the Merkava tank treads leave track marks across your body in longitudinal stripes.

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-1-7 10:14:08 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2004-1-7 10:14:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 So if people won't sell you their land, forcibly push them off?

That's exactly what was done to the Jews by Arab invaders over a millenia ago. We have not reached the end of history. Territorial disputes will occur - and they will have to be settled by force. All this talk of settled rights is beside the point - *all* territorial disputes are eventually settled by force if the stakes are high enough. The Arabs settled the question of who would become Muslims by conquering Persia, the Mid East, North Africa, Central Asia and the Byzantine Empire and Southern Europe. Spaniards reconquered southern Spain for Christendom. The Jews are simply retaking a sliver of their ancient land. The Arabs clearly have a problem with this, but I don't see why we should support them. There are sound strategic reasons for not supporting the stronger party (the Arabs) - the offshore balancing idea remains a good one - ally with the weak against the strong - with the less numerous against the more numerous. More to the point, we share important values with Israel, and none with the Arabs. Again, the right principle is to reward friends and punish enemies, not the reverse. In sponsoring terrorists against America, Arabs have proven themselves to be our enemies.*

* Of course, Muslims don't see themselves as discriminating against America - they sponsor terrorists against a wide variety of countries. What angers them is the American reaction - why shouldn't we avoid confronting them like the other countries out there? They want to be able to continue sponsoring terrorists against the US, but are now afraid for their lives if they don't desist - the examples of Iraq and Afghanistan have made them think twice. Note that Malaysia was about to release an Indonesian terrorist when they suddenly had second thoughts - they are really trying to keep their noses clean in case Uncle Sam comes looking for trouble after another attack.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-1-7 10:21:56 PM|| 2004-1-7 10:21:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Israel needs to do more than that dismantle some illegal settlements to bolster their flagging reputation.

Flagging reputation? Who is teaching ethnic hatred in their schools? Who is indiscriminately blowing up civilians as opposed to only going after known terrorists? How many Jews hold positions in the Palestinian governing body?

Even if you don't care for the Israelis, the Palestinians are a far worse bunch.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-1-7 11:53:35 PM|| 2004-1-7 11:53:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 First, OP, potty-mouth, you wanna try talking to me that way in person? Just name the time and place in the Springs. Keep a civil tongue.
I only said you brought up reparations, but I thought yours were going the wrong way and said so. Palestinian is a corruption of Philistine. Possibly Roman. Those people have been there for centuries
and no amount of revisionism is gonna change that. I have never said that Israel didn't have a right to exist. Just pay for the land they expand to. They're extending past what Balfour declared. I don't even mind that, just do right by the current inhabitants. Otherwise, besides being immoral, it seems to cause everybody trouble.

Zhang - The Liberty a canard? Ask the families of those killed. No apology, reparations, -nothin. There should be a memorial. But the senators, bought and paid for by Israeli pacs won't let it be brought up in congress.
Pollard's sin was that he was a traitor. And cost us plenty. They have tracked his info to Red China. I wonder how they got that?
As for allies, YOU compared them to France and Germany. That's probably about right. But I would expect more from Israel. Considering the way we stood alone for them for years.
As for the muslim nations, -I expect nothing from them. Except invective and possibly danger.
(especially as a christian) We KNOW they are enemies. It's our FRIENDS that keep letting us down. I am all for tracking down those who kill for religious reasons. But I believe those poor, goofed-up Palis have a just beef. They're possibly the only muslims who do.

Bomb- I don't hate Israel. (I don't hate anybody. It ain't worth it.) But I don't trust them anymore. They are a separate, sovereign nation with foreign policy goals that are not always congruent with ours. But don't let anybody say so. They'll be called 'antisemitic'.

Posted by Scott 2004-1-8 4:31:35 AM|| 2004-1-8 4:31:35 AM|| Front Page Top

04:31 Scott
04:19 chinditz
04:17 chinditz
23:53 Bomb-a-rama
23:38 Zhang Fei
23:29 Bomb-a-rama
23:17 tu3031
23:11 CrazyFool
22:49 tu3031
22:49 NotMike Moore
22:47 Ron in Colorado
22:44 TS
22:44 Fred
22:33 4thInfVet
22:32 Attaboid
22:29 Fred
22:28 tu3031
22:25 tu3031
22:21 Zhang Fei
22:19 Vis
22:18 tu3031
22:14 Old Patriot
22:11 tu3031
22:11 Raj