Article

2003-12-12 Middle East

Palestinian PM Says Barrier Will Kill Peace Talks

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Posted by Raptor 2003-12-12 8:47:13 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I wasn't aware they were holding 'peace talks'.

Posted by Charles 2003-12-12 10:40:08 AM|| 2003-12-12 10:40:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The difference between the Berlin wall and the Israeli wall is that the Berlin Wall was designed to keep the East Berliners IN. The Israeli wall keeps the Paleos OUT. Good fences, in this case, will make good neighbors. Any Paleo rockets or missles leaping o'er the wall will be met by a counter-battery-type response from Israel. The Paleos have shot their wad and do not even register on the sympathy meter. Especially at Gaza, where much of the charity money has dried up.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-12-12 11:41:05 AM|| 2003-12-12 11:41:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 You are confusing the West Bank with the Gaza Strip - the West Bank doesn't have border with Egypt or a sea coast. It had borders with Jordan.

The difference between the Berlin wall and this one, is that there was a simple line of separation between Western and Eastern sections of the city of Berlin, IIRC.... the "separation wall" snakes insanely around, doubling back upon itself several times, and as such doesn't constitute a defensible fence at all -- just a quite arbitrary line of land-grabbing.

Have you seen the maps?

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/seperationmap_eng.swf

Once the Eastern Barrier is complete, the previously called "West Bank" will have no borders with Jordan -- it will be completely surrounded by the Israeli lands. As such this isn't about being good neighbours -- it's about *preventing* the Palestinians from ever achieving any sort of viable independence - since they'll completely surrounded by Israel.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-12-12 12:37:45 PM|| 2003-12-12 12:37:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Aris, how can the Palestinians be "completely surrounded" by Israel if the West Bank borders on Jordan?

As to preventing the Palestinians from ever being viably independent -- talk to Arafat about that.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-12-12 1:05:26 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-12-12 1:05:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 As I said, the "Eastern Barrier" will cut off all contact between the West Bank and Jordan. Check out the flash file I linked.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-12-12 2:16:23 PM|| 2003-12-12 2:16:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 RC - Bingo. After giving a geography lessen, it turns out he needs one, himself.

As if anyone actually believes there will ever be a peaceful solution. Riiiiight. It will not happen - and everyone who doesn't cheat at solitaire knows it.

Study the "Palestinian" society, "education system", MEMRI translations (not the gullible Western Media wholesale Paleo dogma reprints) of Arabic press and media, what they are monetarily rewarded for (it's not for advancing on the "Road Map" - they've never done anything req'd of them) - bombers and killings, what is spewed in the Mosques throughout Islam -- if anything is clear, it's that there will not be a peaceful solution. Teaching blind hate in every venue, with every public utterance, observation, demonstration, in every breath of air and every drop of blood spilled, all the Paleos will ever reap is hate. Nothing else grows there. It's their only industry and their only crop. Anyone who can't see this is a tool, a fool, or a paid Paleo dogma peddler.

It takes two to make an agreement work, only one to kill it.

The "Road Map" was still-born. Any chance for peace in the ME died in Sept, 2000 with the beginning of the current "intefada" when Arafish had Oslo in his pocket, Barak offering the previous Paleo catch-phrase (land for peace), and the whole world eating out of his hand - and tossed the lot down his Ramallah toilet.

The red herring of blaming Sharon is classic disinformation - trading a state and their entire future for a single stupid act by a former politician utterly fallen from favor -- a disingenuous equation, but good enough for Arab minds and their gullible suckers in the West. The fact and motive is that Arafish's gravy train would be derailed if there was peace and anything approximating modern accounting was employed by the Finance Ministry of a "state" - as we've seen finally being "discovered" and reported of late. Pfeh. Sharon gave him his classic Arab excuse (i.e. any excuse would do). Then the Israelis rediscovered Sharon as the tough guy to counter the intefada. Arafish breathed a sigh of relief as the bloddy stalemate resumed and he could continue squirreling away the cash and play the "General" - with his delinquent "wife" living the life in Phrawnce. Wotta game. Wotta joke.

Sooner or later, one side will try to wipe out the other. I suggest it will most likely be the Paleos and / or Iranians, if the latter are not pre-emptively disarmed. If not them, it will be some outside funding coward, e.g. the Saudis, who will pay the tab for a WMD attack with whatever they can get their hands on and carried out by whomever they think can pull it off. Watch for a quiet exodus of any Hezballah, Hamas, Fatah, or AlAqsa leadership - perhaps under the ruse of a "conference" with someone - that will signal a WMD hit's coming. If Israel isn't wiped out in the hit, then the Paleos will be - immediately thereafter. If Israel is wiped out / crippled? That's actually the only question for which I don't believe there is an obvious answer.

But let's toss the drivel about peace. Only one side is interested.

Posted by ,comma 2003-12-12 2:19:08 PM|| 2003-12-12 2:19:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 the proposed route of the wall (NOT THE EXISTING SECTIONS) winds around to take in major Israeli settlement blocks - it would still be more defensible than status quo. Of course its less generous than the Pals would like - otherwise what incentive would they have to negotiate, assuming that Israel withdraws to the barrier? As for eastern barrier, it still allows movement to Jordan at Allenby bridge. It does seperate Pal population centers from existing Jordan river valley settlements.

In any case the barrier will be unnecessary and can be stopped IF and WHEN the PA fulfills its ROAD MAP obligation to disarm terrorists.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-12 2:51:41 PM|| 2003-12-12 2:51:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 And the so-called "Eastern" fence appears to have originated with from this uncorroborated story - from our friends at smh.com.au - picked up and repeated as fact by a hundred sites. Not one quotes a single word of the alleged TV speech. I've been looking through Google for 40 minutes... nada. Real? No, it doesn't yet exist. Planned? Not that I can find. If Sharon did say it, it's just as likely to be a bargaining chip as an actual plan.

But it isn't questioned or investigated when it suits one's mindset.

Posted by ,comma 2003-12-12 3:08:30 PM|| 2003-12-12 3:08:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Check out the flash file I linked.

Oh yeah, a fancy flash file with the phrase "only land grab" on it. No bias there.

Notice how the line denoting the fence ends at two points on this map, at the Jordan River in the north, and in the south, in the desert. Now please explain how Jordan is going to be "cut off" from the West Bank.

(Note: this map is also at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs site)

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2003-12-12 5:53:56 PM|| 2003-12-12 5:53:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 liberalhawk> The proposed route of the wall includes tens of Palestinian villages on the Israeli side of the wall. How is this a defensible fence, with the Palestinians inside it?

But my main point is that unlike the wall of Berlin this wall crearly isn't meant to be a border between nations. *No* national border has ever turned in such a way. Have you seen the multiple points where the territories bottleneck? This is just ludicrous.

If "Good fences make good neighbours", then this just isn't a good fence. It's arbitrary. It's unbalanced. And no person will look at it some decades from now and say "oh yeah, this map does makes sense, the borders are just where they are meant to be, we can have lasting peace with such a border".

And if it's meant to be a bargaining chip, then that again doesn't make for a good fence between neighbours. Because good fences aren't barganing chips, they say clearly "this is mine, and that is yours", they don't say "this *might* be mine, and that *might* be yours".

comma> If the Eastern fence doesn't take place that's all for the good -- do you have any reason to believe that it won't? I have heard to believe that it will, as Sharon has proposed in the past that a security zone 20 kilometers wide at the border with Jordan should be maintained.

http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/04.Nov.1999/News/Article-7.html
***
Sharon said it is imperative to maintain a 20 kilometer-wide strip along the Jordanian border and for the Palestinian Authority to have "no point of contact with the Jordanian border."
***

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-12-12 7:42:44 PM|| 2003-12-12 7:42:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Bargaining chips aren't actually built - you bargain them away before you spend the money.

As for the wiggliness of the lines, uh, is this about taste / aesthetics?

You go looking and come back with a 4 year old link? C'mon. If this was legit - it'd be as easy to find as the bogus BS claim upon which 25 sites laboriously created their bogus PDF's, graphics, and Flash bits. Typical myth propagation that accompanies everything from the Paleo dogma peddlers. Total crap mongering. Jenin massacre, anyone?

You're really reaching, here. I appreciate you worked hard to put a bright face on this stuff, but it was BS. I rest my case.

Posted by ,comma 2003-12-12 8:46:25 PM|| 2003-12-12 8:46:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Once the Israeli-Palestine wall is complete, I would not be surprised to find a Jordan-Palestinian wall plan.

The only way to destoy the Paleo nihilistic death wish society is to wall it in and let it starve to death. If they ever reconsider, we can always throw bread scraps over the fence to those left. Too cruel? ~~My heart bleeds~~ bite me!

Posted by john 2003-12-12 9:01:03 PM|| 2003-12-12 9:01:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 As for the wiggliness of the lines, uh, is this about taste / aesthetics?

It's about making a border that can stand the test of time.

This kind of border couldn't be accepted by even a *sane* Palestinian leader.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-12-12 9:05:11 PM|| 2003-12-12 9:05:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 A "sane" Palestinian leader? There is no such thing.

Posted by Denny 2003-12-12 10:05:44 PM|| [Http://www.grouchyoldcripple.com] 2003-12-12 10:05:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Aris, all Yasser has to do is "Egad! We can't let this happen. We'd better start talking to those Zionist fiends!" And start to negotiate.

Remember, he had 85-95% of what he wanted at Oslo. He said no. Why should the Israelis reweard him now by building the fence on the Green line? He's the one who threw away the last best chance for a Palestine; let him make the first move to make peace now.

This fence is nothing more than Sharon saying to Yasser that it's time to fish or cut bait.

Posted by Steve White 2003-12-12 11:24:07 PM|| 2003-12-12 11:24:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 We already know that Yasser is a more than crappy leader.

And I'm not talking about necessarily building the fence exactly on the Green line. I don't even truly *care* about the Green line that much.

I'm talking about drawing a reasonable border about two nations, with an eye on it being a border that hypothetical decent leaders of the future can accept.

Yes, all Arafat has to do is what you said. And Arafat won't do it. So the Israeli government should have just ignored Arafat and do what's best for the Israelis *and* for the Palestinian people.

What does "rewarding Arafat" have to do with anything? Who the hell sees such a huge historical venture as rewarding or punishing a single leader?

Oh, what the hell, you people don't understand you are actually contradicting each other with your arguments in favour of the wall as drawn. comma and Bomb-a-rama reject that the idea is to strangle the palestinian territories, john accepts and is in favour of such an idea, Alaska Paul talk about good fences making good neighbours, and Steve does see the wall as some kind of "punishment" on the Palestinians for Arafat's failure to be sane.

It's nasty and discouraging. There's no hope left for Israel with Sharon in charge, if he's playing the punishment games rather than the long-term thinking games.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-12-13 1:01:07 AM|| 2003-12-13 1:01:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Arafish is the "chosen" Paleo asshat. Sharon, whom you think is of the same type, is the one honestly elected in a fair election - so your complaint is with the Israelis there. You are guilty of trying to have it multiple ways - and you're one person. So it that ambivalence? Or schizophrenia?

The simple ugly truth is just as I stated in my first post in this thread: There won't be peace. Re-read it.

Hate is the disease that prevents it. The Israelis don't teach it, they don't coddle it and treasure it. They don't spew it in every speech or carry banners in every public demonstration (of which there are vastly fewer) or enshrine it by renaming streets and plazas after suicide bombers. They don't fill their children with it or dress them up in battle-dress or give them AK-47's or M-16s to carry in hate demonstrations. Their economy isn't based on it. Their entire lives don't revolve around it. They are not the problem for they are not the hate mongerers.

The Paleos leaders created the revisionist myth of their imaginary beloved "Palestine" and then created this hatefest - and they will perish because they will force it to a point where there is no other choice. Pathetically, perversely, and ultimately cravenly it's really only about money and greed. How banal, yet tragic.

Hmmmm...

Funny, that sounds just like the Caliphate crowd when you think it through... from manufactured indignation all the way to the logical end of smoking holes in the earth.

Posted by ,comma 2003-12-13 1:47:34 AM|| 2003-12-13 1:47:34 AM|| Front Page Top

15:54 Doc H
09:47 raptor
05:36 The Dodo
01:47 ,comma
01:05 Tresho
01:01 Aris Katsaris
23:27 Anonymous
23:24 Steve White
23:13 4thInfVet
23:09 Anonymous
22:57 4thInfVet
22:50 4thInfVet
22:22 Fred
22:13 Fred
22:05 Denny
22:02 ruprecht
21:54 Fred
21:29 Kentar
21:25 NotMikeMoore
21:23 Glenn (not Reynolds)
21:21 Jarhead
21:17 4thInfVet
21:16 Jarhead
21:06 Jarhead