Article

2003-11-07 -Short Attention Span Theater-

Nice Elderly Couple Shot Dead in Gun Free Utopia UK

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Posted by chriskarma 2003-11-07 12:56:04 AM|| || Front Page|| [11136 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Wow... too overbearingly arrogant for words, this title and commentary.

I could probably find a hundred incidents of couples being shot dead in gun-filled Utopia USA -- and they wouldn't actually *prove* that lack of gun control was the reason for the deaths, any more than your post makes any real point whatsoever about the presence of gun control and the results thereof.

So... will we start posting info about every murder that occurs anywhere in the world or shall we try to keep the posts in this board somewhat connected to the "War on Terror" issues or atleast to politics in general?

I mean, really, if you'd atleast posted year-long comparative murder statistics or something, that'd atleast be closer connected to politics rather than a lone murder incident would be. Still not sure this'd be the place for it, but atleast it'd be *somewhat* relevant...

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-7 5:57:35 AM|| 2003-11-7 5:57:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Aris,you are"On Target"about this not being about the WOT.How ever"good control is using both hands".
Of course being one of those gun-owning American"Utopians"I tend to be a bit biased when it comes to defending myself.

Posted by Raptor 2003-11-7 7:04:37 AM|| 2003-11-7 7:04:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Kennesaw, Georgia, is one of the few municipalities that not only doesn't have gun control, but ACTIVELY ENCOURAGES gun ownership. The only requirement to own one is to show proof of attendance to a training course that includes live fire exercises.

Not Surprisingly, the crime rate and murder rate in Kennesaw is waaay below the national average, AND below that of nearby Atlanta (you DO know about Atlanta, Don't you Aris? The one who "stole" the Olympics from Athens for the 100th anniversary games?)

The CDC recently put out a report stating that, after extensive statistical analysis, they could not find any detectable benefits to Gun Control laws.

Finally, there's the rather blatantly hypocritical assumption YOU make that we ARE or OUGHT to be like you, and thus that OUR not living up to YOUR thoughts and beliefs is some sort of failure. WE are NOT LIKE YOU.

Thank God!

Posted by Ptah 2003-11-7 7:51:52 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-11-7 7:51:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Aris You are now called on your BULLSHIT "I could probably find a hundred incidents of couples being shot dead in gun-filled Utopia USA".....Put up or leave......

Dorf

Posted by Anonymous 2003-11-7 8:17:25 AM|| 2003-11-7 8:17:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Aris probably could find a lot of incidents. But to personalize this one, my folks sleep with a shotgun at the end of the bed, and have chased out intruders twice. Thank god they moved out of there last month.

Posted by flash91 2003-11-7 9:53:06 AM|| 2003-11-7 9:53:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 This is about the WOT my friends: the WOT from stupid gun control laws and the criminals who prosper from them.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-7 10:44:31 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:44:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 The article itself would probably be less annoying if it wasn't all in bold typeface. Hint, hint.

Posted by Yank 2003-11-7 10:54:53 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:54:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Anonymous Dorf> *rolls eyes* I don't have the patience to track a hundred different murder articles, but as for general statistics this will work just as well as any. Despite the rather non-serious page it's located as in.

I'm sure some of those deaths must be of couples as well, though I grant thee, most are probably of solitary demises. USA has lots more murders per capita than most of Western Europe.

But since I already said that doesn't actually prove anything about what gun control does or doesn't do, did you have any point in making me search for these stats?

flash91> I think my personal feelings on the issue are a bit like that -- any place where, even though surrounded by dozens of neighbours, I'd feel insecure enough that I'd need to have a gun in -- that'd be a place where I wouldn't be interested in staying. That's civilisation.

Now if I was living far from other people, or in proximity to enemy civilisations or in the Wild Wild Wild West frontier or whatever, now that's a different mentality there -- and the holding of a gun in such situations doesn't seem so distasteful to me. But cities, as in all large gatherings of people... they are supposed to be safer. The sound of your shout *making* you safer than any gun.

Ptah> Another *rolls eyes* to you. Yeah I know about Atlanta. I know about the Olympics in Atlanta. I know about the burning of Atlanta in the civil war - remember it from "Gone with the Wind". I even know about the Center of Disease Control in Atlanta as a close friend of mine came from Atlanta, and she had once told me of being worried about the CDC being targetted by terrorists and thousands of nasty little bugs flying out or something.

Btw, what was it again that you disapproved of in my commentary? My saying that gun-control issue isn't such an easy issue that it could be proven right or wrong by giving out lone examples of couples being murdered or not in their beds?

Or is it just general asshole hostility on your part that makes you think I said something negative about your beloved US of A even when I didn't?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-7 12:20:21 PM|| 2003-11-7 12:20:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Aris,

"But cities, as in all large gatherings of people... they are supposed to be safer. The sound of your shout *making* you safer than any gun."

Possibly the stupidest (or probably most naive)comment I've ever heard in regards to this subject. How many apathetic people in the big city get involved in stopping a crime if a criminal is armed and they are not? How many criminals attack people in a crowd or during a time where there are lots of bystanders to watch or hear your *shout* - I'm not even trying to be an asshole or personally attack you either. Just use your head. Criminals usually attack people stopping at a gas station, ATM, or in their homes at night - THERE IS NO ONE THERE TO HEAR YOUR *SHOUT*. Most of the time the criminals attack the old, females, and those they think look like victims. I know first hand that a determined citizen w/a firearm and some training is a great defense to crime.

I'm from Detroit, not sure if you've been there. Kind of rough town. Makes Atlanta look like a Brownie Bake Sale. A firearm is a good thing to have for personal defense. Not everyone can just move away from where they work & re-side here in the U.S.

I've been to western Europe and the UK. You may not have the same problems we do. We have the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution which gaurantees us the right to bear arms. A lot of politicians would love to see that reduced to the farthest extent possible through bureaucratic b.s. laws. I could go on all day about the virtues of responsible citizens owning a firearm for their protection and the protection of their family as it is a subject I know intimately well.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-7 12:47:32 PM|| 2003-11-7 12:47:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 USA has lots more murders per capita than most of Western Europe.

how many Joooos did Europe kill? Think if each'd been able to be armed, that it might've been a little harder?

Posted by Frank G 2003-11-7 12:47:37 PM|| 2003-11-7 12:47:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Hello chriskarma: welcome to Rantburg!

I believe that what Chris is trying to say is that the rural English have been left more or less defenseless by the draconian gun control laws which have been created by the urban English. I've been to rural England (quite lovely) on several occasions and there is not, nor will there ever be, enough police to protect the local people. Like rural folks everywhere, they have to do it themselves.... only they aren't allowed to legally by the PC, urban, liberal crowd who have developed some very odd ideas of what constitutes crime and punishment.

England is a geographically rather small nation; you can drive across it in a remarkably brief period of time. Thus it is a simple matter for the urban criminal element to take a "holiday" to the countryside -- where a disarmed, helpless, unprotected populace awaits them. And they know it.

Posted by Secret Master 2003-11-7 12:53:11 PM|| [www.budgetwarrior.com] 2003-11-7 12:53:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "How many apathetic people in the big city get involved in stopping a crime if a criminal is armed and they are not?"

That probably depends on whether the city is located in the civilised world or not.

"Criminals usually attack people stopping at a gas station, ATM, or in their homes at night"

Are you using American or European statistics? Gas stations over here always have some employee nearby, so I've not heard many such incidents. And most ATMs I've frequented are in busy streets. And their "homes at night"... most criminals try to attack homes when they are empty.

"We have the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution which gaurantees us the right to bear arms."

I know. So? Does the personal distaste that makes sure I'll never keep a gun in *my own home*, somehow offend your American sensibilities? Or does it somehow threaten your own 2nd Amendment rights?

Or are you such a fanatic idiot that people having personal distaste for gun ownerships actually *threatens* you?

Frank G> "how many Joooos did Europe kill?"

Given that Europe's a land-mass, I doubt it killed any. Unless you are talking about landslides or something.

"Think if each'd been able to be armed, that it might've been a little harder?"

Not sure actually. At the beginning of the concentration camps period, most Jews didn't know that death was awaiting them there -- as such they'd see armed resistance against impossible odds (even if they were armed to the teeth) as what would have been what would have been sentencing them to death, not submission.

But either way that's irrelevant to my point. I think I spoke something about the need of weapons (or lack thereof) in a place of *civilisation*? I doubt that even you would have called Nazi Germany civilised.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-7 1:47:02 PM|| 2003-11-7 1:47:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 "I believe that what Chris is trying to say is that the rural English have been left more or less defenseless by the draconian gun control laws which have been created by the urban English."

But that would imply that *gasp* English cities are safer than the countryside!!! Which is what *I* said.

How can you be such an idiot? How can you possibly echo *my* statement? Haven't you heard what Jarhead said? That's the most stupid thing he has heard in a thousand years, etc, etc, whatever.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-7 1:54:42 PM|| 2003-11-7 1:54:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris,

"That probably depends on whether the city is located in the civilised world or not."

-Knock off the arrogance it be-littles your argument. Violent criminals who are armed live in all cities, especially here. (and obviously England.)

"Are you using American or European statistics? Gas stations over here always have some employee nearby, so I've not heard many such incidents. And most ATMs I've frequented are in busy streets."

-US stats. However, UK crime stats for violent crimes have actually gone up since legalized gun control. (same w/Australia I'm told) Maybe you could ask Bulldog about this?

It wouldn't matter if an un-armed gas attendant was nearby. ATMs YOU'VE FREQUENTED on busy streets huh? You do realize that people over here don't always visit ATMs during high pedestrian hours? You do realize how damn big our country is right? Have you been here to a big city lately?

"... most criminals try to attack homes when they are empty."

-Negative. Armed criminals in this country don't really give a shit if its empty or not. If they did there wouldn't be so many reports of homeowners fighting off intruders or shooting them in their homes. Especially those bent on raping the occupants. Use your head. Maybe in europe the cat burglar is still after just the loot and not confrontation.

"Does the personal distaste that makes sure I'll never keep a gun in *my own home*, somehow offend your American sensibilities?"

-Nope. I don't give a shit what you do. I'm a libertarian - what you do in your home is your business 100%. Own a gun or not - makes no difference to me. I own one because I know the realities of *my area*.

"Or does it somehow threaten your own 2nd Amendment rights?"

-Why would it? See the Above. My statement was saying WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. You mistook it as usual. I never said ANYONE HAD TO BEAR ARMS.

"Or are you such a fanatic idiot that people having personal distaste for gun ownerships actually *threatens* you?"

-Again, as long as they keep their distaste to themselves and not try to infringe upon my freedom to bear arms and protect my infant son and wife. Then no, I have no problem.

However, when some f*ckin' moron w/an ajenda whose never lived where I live or knows what I know or seen what I've seen tries to force their stupid idiotic beliefs on me, then yeah, WE WILL have a problem.

"But that would imply that *gasp* English cities are safer than the countryside!"

-No it doesn't. See my UK comment above. Only means the criminals from the city can make easy work of the more dispersed folks in the rural areas. Or it could've of been a thrill kill - either way, that couple would've at least stood a chance if they had a firearm. In your world, Aris, they had no chance.

-BTW, knock off the fanatic idiot remark. I think your above the personal attack crap. I stated I wasn't attacking you personally. Your views don't work here in the states in my experience. If you've been exposed to what a lot of us here have your views might change on home gun ownership.

-"For the first time in history, a civilized nation has embraced legal gun registration."

-Adolf Hitler, 1933

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-7 2:35:56 PM|| 2003-11-7 2:35:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 The rural areas of America (that's barbarian tribal society to you, Aris) are quite different than Britain. I grew up in rural America. No one ever had their home broken into. I suspect it was because it was widely known that everyone owned firearms and were quite adept at using them. You see, criminals are almost always cowards.

I have had to use a firearm to protect myself from someone breaking into my home since moving to a city. Didn't even have to point the weapon at the guy. I simply used the Most Feared Sound In America (a round being loaded into the chamber of a pump-action shotgun) to run the intruder off. How much more 'civilized' can you get, Aris? I resolved the conflict without any physical confrontation. I also applied the same resolution when someone tried to break into my neighbors' apartment. Deterence IS being civilized.

Posted by Kentar 2003-11-7 2:36:47 PM|| 2003-11-7 2:36:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "Does the personal distaste that makes sure I'll never keep a gun in *my own home*, somehow offend your American sensibilities?"

Impress me Aris - put a big friggin' sign on your front door that says "this house is unarmed, and I won't defend my life or my property. But I'm morally superior to those who do"

Go ahead - make my day

Posted by Frank G 2003-11-7 2:49:38 PM|| 2003-11-7 2:49:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Kentar, was that a Remington, Benelli, or Winchester bro! LOL. You hit the nail on the head w/the "sound or sight of deterence" - a law abiding citizen brandishing a weapon.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-7 3:02:08 PM|| 2003-11-7 3:02:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Jarhead,
It's a Remmy. Not the most sophisticated, but it never jams and it makes that really cool ratcheting noise.

BTW, I enjoy your postsâ¦objective and balanced without bullshit additives. Say what you mean and say it mean!

Posted by Kentar 2003-11-7 3:22:43 PM|| 2003-11-7 3:22:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Is this gun control crap gonna have any effect on my planned purchased of a MLRS?

(The remote controlled D-9 won't be ready for Christmas)

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-7 3:23:16 PM|| 2003-11-7 3:23:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Frank G> Hardly anyone that I know has a gun in their homes, so the "this house is unarmed" comment would be superfluous. And who said anything about not defending life or property if someone does break in?

The distaste doesn't arise from people defending themselves. It arises from the idea of people feeling insecure enough in their own homes that they feel it a likely scenario that they will need to do so with a gun, so that they prepare themselves for it, as if living in the city is the same as living in the wild. Or the same as going to armed combat.

The rural areas of America (that's barbarian tribal society to you, Aris)

Not barbarian as that'd imply a "civilisation" that was anti-life in its attitude. The unprotectedness of rural areas lies only in the sparsity of their dwellings -- which is why I suggested being armed there makes more sense than being armed in the cities.

Jarhead> "I don't give a shit what you do."

Then, given your seeming anger when I said what I do, you have a very funny way of showing it.

"BTW, knock off the fanatic idiot remark. I think your above the personal attack crap. I stated I wasn't attacking you personally. "

Bullshit. You have a real problem of showing that you are not attacking people personally when you constantly use remarks such as "Use your head". Most people would find such a remark a quite personal attack.

Then again I understand you had a real problem a few days back of indicating that you are not a racist with certain anti-French commentary you made and then a refusal to apologize, right?

"that couple would've at least stood a chance if they had a firearm. In your world, Aris, they had no chance"

And what world is that? Is it the world where intruders prefer to go after empty houses and scatter if the occupants wake up because a shout could wake up an entire block of flats?

Is it the world where I've not been attacked by robbers (in my house or outside it) in the 24 years of my life, and I have no reason to believe that the next 24 will be any different?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-7 3:24:30 PM|| 2003-11-7 3:24:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 (in my house or outside it) in the 24 years of my life, and I have no reason to believe that the next 24 will be any different?

LOL. Ah youth. I hope you're right.

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-7 3:29:02 PM|| 2003-11-7 3:29:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 How can you be such an idiot? How can you possibly echo *my* statement? Haven't you heard what Jarhead said? That's the most stupid thing he has heard in a thousand years, etc, etc, whatever

Well, Aris, #chuckle# I certainly don't think I'm an idiot, but regardless I'm not posting my opinion here: this is a fact. Urban English criminals ARE going out into the countryside and praying upon unarmed people. It has nothing to do with how safe or unsafe the urban areas are due to the so-called English gun controle laws; although my Brittish friends tell me that "unsafe" is the operative word these days in London.

Regardless of RKBA issues (for the record I am a member of the NRA) the fact remains that the English goverment cannot protect its rural minority nor will it legally allow them to protect themselves.

Posted by Secret Master 2003-11-7 3:29:31 PM|| [www.budgetwarrior.com] 2003-11-7 3:29:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Regarding cities being safer because you can shout for help. There is a famous case in NY (from the 60s or 70s I think) where a woman was killed over a 15 or 20 minute period near an apartment complex and something like 2 dozen folks listened without calling the cops or trying to help. They all assumed someone else had called the cops or would help so why should they get involved. Big cities lead to anonymous attitudes and crowd mentalities, not safety.

Posted by Yank 2003-11-7 4:19:39 PM|| 2003-11-7 4:19:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Kentar,

I have an 870 Rem. Love it.

Aris,

"Then, given your seeming anger when I said what I do, you have a very funny way of showing it."

-I have no anger toward you. I honestly don't care what you do in your house. None of my business. If you don't want a gun - don't get one, that simple. Your analogies just don't work here as most of the other posters besides me have pointed out.

I will say "use your head" when something you say is not imo well thought out. If you take offense to that, then I'll just have to get over it. You can ignore my opinion all you want.

About the French thing, they are not a Race, they're a culture so I'm not a racist. If you also read my whole post (vice the parts you like for this attack) you'd seen that I had great admiration for others in that country. The other poster and I "made up", we're over it - can you get over it?. I made not agree w/you but doesn't mean I won't agree w/you on something else in the future. I may come off strident but am trying to make you understand. Either way, nice deflection and left-handed attack on the French thing - but won't work with me.

Now, if I was to personally attack you in my own Leatherneck way it would go something like this -

Aris, you gotta be shitting me!? You are by far the stupidest, numb-nut, piece of shit, clown-ass motherfucker on the planet. You're a 24 yr old dumb shit talkin' outta his ass from some cheap college text book he got from the local ANSWER side walk sale. Your also probably some maggot infested peace-pansie whose living off his folks still and on his momma's nipples & climbing up and down her apron strings like a little girl. Oh and I'm sure you know the Greek Army motto - "never leave your buddie's behind" real fucking well. You speak of high ideals and civilization yet you have no fucking idea what it means to defend this idea. Save the bullshit for your college progressive polite society non-hacking boyfriends. The real men here who actually back the shit up for a living laugh at you. I can't believe you're actually Greek; King Leonidas and the rest of the Spartans are probably turning in their graves to have such a bitch-ass pussy as yourself smearing their good name. Guess they should've just let the Persians save them trouble. I'm also glad you've never owned a weapon - probably too stupid to know how to use it right anyway.

See bro'. Now that would be a damn fine personal attack. Even a nice tie-in w/Leonidas & the Spartan thing whose battlefield prowess I admired greatly. However, did I do that in my last post? NO. & No one's really trying to attack you (honestly)- think what you want. I've got some real close friends who are Greek Americans. Awesome people. I'm just saying what works for the EU doesn't work for us concerning guns. You can be pissed at me, keep throwing rocks, good to go. I think some of your posts are thought provoking especially the ones concerning the M.E. and EU areas - obviously your forte. When you hit about 30 have kids, (and maybe come over here) get accosted by someone or fear for someone else (like a child) your attitude will probably change. Either way, I've said my peace and am done w/this.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-7 5:14:09 PM|| 2003-11-7 5:14:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Aris thanks for the info "*rolls eyes* I don't have the patience to track a hundred different murder articles, but as for general statistics this will work just as well as any. Despite the rather non-serious page it's located as in."

However the info does not absolve you from the resposibility of your statement. Please find the hundreds as soon as possible, also please include whether guns where used. And you are correct when I finally got to the part of the page about President Bush and adolf hitler I discounted all of the page.

Dorf (still relatively anonymous)

Posted by Anonymous 2003-11-7 5:35:02 PM|| 2003-11-7 5:35:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 When I lived in England, I lived on the edge of a small village (~6000), but in the middle of a 60-acre pasture. We had a small fire - some electrical wiring burned out, gave a brief flame, and then smoldered a bit. My wife called the fire department (I was at work). They couldn't find the house! Simple reason - they knew the house as "the Coop Farm", while we rented it as "Northdale". Both names were technically correct - the local Coop did own Northdale. That didn't help my wife feel any safer.

I hardly ever locked my doors in England. I do here, all the time. My mother stopped a prowler one morning (around 3:30AM) when I was a small boy - by pumping six rounds of .38 ammo into him. We NEVER had any problems after that. Here in Colorado Springs, I don't own a gun, yet I've stopped one person breaking and entering (nice fireplace iron across the neck), and we've had two stabbings, a shooting, and a meth lab raided within three blocks of my house. Nice, "safe" city. Yet Colorado Springs crime statistics are half Denver's per capita.

"Safety is being able to make sure that anyone that wants to harm you will wish he'd picked someone else when you finish with him." Something my dad taught me when he came back from helping clean up the mess in Europe during the 1940's...

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-11-7 7:50:53 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-11-7 7:50:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 I've lived in the US my entire life and never seen a crime committed. Not a violent crime, not a pickpocketing, nor a break and enter. Of course I've always lived in the suburbs, not in the ghetto.

From what I understand if you whacked the ghetto numbers out of the crime statistics the US would match up nicely with Canada across the board. Make of that what you will. Thre are more guns in the ghetto, but there are also more predators in the ghetto.

I tend to blame the predators, not the weapons.

It is my belief that before gunpowder the world was truly a dog-eat-dog world where the strongest survived and the rest did their bidding. Guns changed that so a weak woman can hold her own against a giant barbarian these days. Knowing that I fail to understand why women and liberals would want to revert back to the dog-eat-dog world we had before.

Posted by Yank 2003-11-7 8:15:00 PM|| 2003-11-7 8:15:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Jarhead> Go on convincing me that I wasn't personally attacked by you (or by anyone else), it's quite amusing. Especially since Dorf pretty much denied the fact that hundreds of murders take place in America and Ptah, even more rabidly said that I'm making a "rather blatantly hypocritical assumption that we ARE or OUGHT to be like you, and thus that OUR not living up to YOUR thoughts and beliefs is some sort of failure. WE are NOT LIKE YOU. Thank God!"

All this based on my comment that the gun control issue is more complicated than the original poster wanted to suggest. That's it. I pretty much made no other implication in my first post in this thread, but that was enough for the rabid fanatics to attack me. Whatever.

And what's your definition of a "race" btw? And French are not a "culture", they are a nation.

"From what I understand if you whacked the ghetto numbers out of the crime statistics the US would match up nicely with Canada across the board. Make of that what you will. "

I think I'll make of that that we oughtn't whack the ghetto numbers out of the crime statistics.

Anonymous Dorf> Thanks, but no thanks, I'm not your lapdog. Find your own hundred detailed murders from the past. I can ofcourse start posting murders from now on, but I think this issue should get quite a bit less wanky, therefore I'll decline.

Jarhead> "I'm just saying what works for the EU doesn't work for us concerning guns"

As I said you have a real problem saying the things you later claim you meant to say. Because the point I got from your post, is that my proclaimed unwillingness to live in a place where I'd feel threatened enough that I'd want to carry a gun, somehow was "stupid" and "naive" and that I needed to use my head and some such stuff.

---
To produce a little historical parallel:
Chastity belts once existed not to protect the faithfulness of wives (as is the urban legend) but in reality to protect women travelling from potential rapists. I have no doubt that many women of the time thought such a protection necessary. I have no doubt some women still do. There are arguments in favour of such a measure, even as there arguments in favour of the need for guns.

But a woman needing to wear a chastity belt for fear of safety remains a repulsive idea. To *me*. Even as owning a gun for fear of safety is one. To *me*. Perhaps you people perceive it differently, and neither a chastity belt nor a gun is repulsive to *you*.

But if you can't deal with what things I find repulsive, and what things I don't, that's again your own damn problem.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-7 8:56:43 PM|| 2003-11-7 8:56:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Aris,

stay amused then bro.

"WE are NOT LIKE YOU. Thank God!"

-For once we agree. World would be boring if you were. But just for the record - if you ever do plan on visiting here - you can stay w/my family. No B.S. I would be happy to show you around. We could also debate and argue over lots of stuff. Ever been down south in the U.S.?

"And French are not a "culture", they are a nation."

-I stand corrected that is more accurate. My definition of race is unimportant. I only forsee us quibling over that one as well w/neither agreeing w/the other.

"As I said you have a real problem saying the things you later claim you meant to say."

-Okay, lets see:

"Not everyone can just move away from where they work & re-side here in the U.S. I've been to western Europe and the UK. You may not have the same problems we do."

-that's from my first post - pretty evident I'm saying YOU (THE EU) may not have the same problems we do.

"WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. You mistook it as usual. I never said ANYONE HAD TO BEAR ARMS."

-From my second post.

"Your views don't work here in the states in my experience."

-From my second post. Your views may work in Greece or on the continent there - that's great, but not in the U.S.

"Because the point I got from your post, is that my proclaimed unwillingness to live in a place where I'd feel threatened enough that I'd want to carry a gun, somehow was "stupid" and "naive" and that I needed to use my head and some such stuff"

-nope, but what is stupid and naive to say about my country is this:

"I could probably find a hundred incidents of couples being shot dead in gun-filled Utopia USA -- and they wouldn't actually *prove* that lack of gun control was the reason for the deaths, any more than your post makes any real point whatsoever about the presence of gun control and the results thereof."

-If you make the statement, back it up w/facts concerning the U.S. Anyone can make the statement.

"But if you can't deal with what things I find repulsive, and what things I don't, that's again your own damn problem."

-True enough - & as I said before in my second post:

"I'm a libertarian - what you do in your home is your business 100%. Own a gun or not - makes no difference to me. I own one because I know the realities of *my area*"

-I never advocated YOU ARIS needed to own a gun. I know I need to - its a reality for me, thankfully not for you.

"Perhaps you people perceive it differently, and neither a chastity belt nor a gun is repulsive to *you*."

-We people do see it differently as far as guns are concerned. BTW - I always thought chastity belts were kind of sexy ;) The analogy is pretty exteraneous to an American - chastity belts from our point of view was to guard virgins against premarital sex with a paramour -not a brutal rape from a criminal. I guess it could do the latter as well but that was not the intended use of it *in our view*. Most of the women in our country didn't wear them for fear of rape - most of their parents made them wear it so they couldn't have consenual sex with a boyfriend or (have a fling) until they were married.

The bottomline is two people are dead. I wish they were not. If England did not have the anti-gun laws would they be alive? I don't know, and sadly we'll never know. Would they have even thought to own a firearm as many business owners in the U.S. do? Again, can't say. I do know though if they did have a firearm and were attacked or whatever they would've stood a chance of living imo.

Aris, again my offer from the above about coming here if you ever do, no b.s., I'll put you up.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-7 10:30:32 PM|| 2003-11-7 10:30:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 WHAT NOBODY HAS MENTIONED IS THAT THE FISHERS OWNED LICENCED GUNS THEMSELVES. IF KEEPING A GUN KEEPS YOU SAFE, WHY ARE THEY DEAD? A FIREARM KEPT AT HOME FOR PROTECTION IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE LIKELY TO BE USED TO KILL INNOCENT MEMBERS OF A FAMILY (OFTEN A CHILD MESSING AROUND) THAN IT IS TO KILL AN INTRUDER. GUNS ONLY KILL BECAUSE OF THE STUPIDITY OF PEOPLE OWNING THEM, BUT MANY PEOPLE ARE STUPID. DO YOU REALLY WANT ANY IDIOT WAVING ONE AROUND? THINK ABOUT IT.

Posted by Anonymous5252 2004-06-18 8:23:32 AM|| 2004-06-18 8:23:32 AM|| Front Page Top

08:23 Anonymous5252
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