Article

2008-08-06 Science & Technology

Ultracapacitor Announcement and a Smackdown

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Posted by mhw 2008-08-06 09:40|| || Front Page|| [11133 views ] Top

#1 Let's see now. That's 240 miles in 3 hours. Then 5 minutes to recharge and pee. Then, another 3 hours and 240 miles more... About $5 a pop for the juice. That's about $75 and 40 hours or so to make a coast-to-coast run. And not one penny of that goes to Islamic radicals. Yeah, I can live with that.

Posted by Richard of Oregon 2008-08-06 10:19|| 2008-08-06 10:19|| Front Page Top

#2 I think the 250 mile range would be with 40 mph or so.

The 80 mph may be reachable for a short period but there is no way to eliminate the turbulent drag.

Posted by mhw">mhw 2008-08-06 10:35|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2008-08-06 10:35|| Front Page Top

#3 I know nothing about electrical engineering, and as a result of ignorance I have a lot of questions about these.

The one thing I seem to recall is that capacitors are always labelled as being very dangerous. If this is true, wouldn't an ultra-capacitor be particularly dangreous?

Second, materials that are subject to drastic changes in temp. or are subject to vibration tend to breakdown. What would be the useful life of one of these in a car subject to vibration, road salt, temp. change, etc.?

How much heat do they generate?

How would they react if damaged, and how fragile are they?

Sounds like a great idea, but I also remember when bubble-memory was the be all and end all of computer storage.

Posted by AlanC 2008-08-06 10:52|| 2008-08-06 10:52|| Front Page Top

#4 Ultracaps can handle the power (energy rate) of regenerative braking and re-acceleration and seem most suitable for city buses and delivery trucks. Only if they have truly solved the bulk energy storage problem at an affordable cost will light duty highway drivers benefit.

Posted by Slats Glans2659 2008-08-06 11:13|| 2008-08-06 11:13|| Front Page Top

#5 Alan, Like you I don't know a lot about them but I think the main danger in a capacitor is that it can discharge so fast that a short or bad connection can lead to a serious fire or explosion. As for charging speed, charge density, # of lifetime cylces, shock resistance, lower production cost, and discharge rate, they are far superior to batteries. They have been largely sidelined for years because of their size I think.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-08-06 11:47|| 2008-08-06 11:47|| Front Page Top

#6 Wiki has an article on their Ultracapacitor, with tech info. It actually looks promising, if they are on the level, many startups have a bad habit of overstating the progress of their research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-08-06 11:51|| 2008-08-06 11:51|| Front Page Top

#7 Will it retrofit into my DeLorean?
- M. McFly

Posted by Scott R 2008-08-06 12:45|| 2008-08-06 12:45|| Front Page Top

#8 What I don't get is why there is a speed limit. If the power is in the battery isn't there a way to use it up faster to go faster? Or perhaps mechanical gears to increase/lesson torque and maximize the usage?

To be honest an 80 miles per hour limit is not unreasonable and I hope this isn't smoke and mirrors.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-06 12:49|| 2008-08-06 12:49|| Front Page Top

#9 I don't see, off-hand, why the limit is on the capacitor. Perhaps their proto vehicle has the limit for some other reason.

Posted by Grenter, Protector of the Geats 2008-08-06 13:05|| 2008-08-06 13:05|| Front Page Top

#10 The Capacitor problem is they want to discharge instantly, it's very hard to regulate discharge to reasonable usage volt/amp range.

Posted by Redneck Jim">Redneck Jim 2008-08-06 13:13|| 2008-08-06 13:13|| Front Page Top

#11 Hopefully it all works out. Like all things that are new and promised to be all pie in the sky and will lead us to a new tomorrow and the promised land...

Show me.

I'll believe it when I see it and the market accepts it.

Posted by DarthVader 2008-08-06 13:31|| 2008-08-06 13:31|| Front Page Top

#12 thanks Jims (both of you)

You both bring up one of my concerns if these want to discharge instantly what happens if they DO discharge instantly due to a short or something caused by an accident?

Something tells me that dealing with these things might not be a job for a shade tree mechanic, or even your local shop.

Posted by AlanC 2008-08-06 13:33|| 2008-08-06 13:33|| Front Page Top

#13 It's really troubling that no prototype, even a teeny tiny one, has been unveiled and hooked up to a power meter. Until then, I will place it in the category of other ultracapacitors. That is, it stores about 1-5% of the energy of lithium ion batteries.

Posted by ed 2008-08-06 13:45|| 2008-08-06 13:45|| Front Page Top

#14 Seems from what I'm reading is they need to put a few smaller ones in a car so that if one pops off permaturely the car doesn't blow up and burn and/or end up without power. I could be wrong but it seems as if it would be easier to keep one from draining fast if it wasn't draining at all, but held in reserve than by draining it slowly. if that's so than you just use one at a time.

Design the car so they can be removed and replaced in case of fault so your average garage doesn't need to fix it. They just put a new one in, and make sure the old one is discharged and then fedex it to wherever it needs to go.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-06 14:14|| 2008-08-06 14:14|| Front Page Top

#15 Use a small reserve battery (30 minutes capacity at top usage) for the primary, feed the cap into that, and put a generator on board for charging.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-06 14:23|| 2008-08-06 14:23|| Front Page Top

#16 Since Ultracapacitors can charge really really quickly... hmmm... I wonder how big a bank you would need to capture a lightening bolt?
3 sq blocks?
If you could do it you would have a great energy source...

Posted by 3dc 2008-08-06 14:30|| 2008-08-06 14:30|| Front Page Top

#17 I don't know about lightning, but a large bank of them could make wind power a lot more usable. It might even make the entire grid last longer. If power plants could chug away all night at low load and save it away for the next day's peak load time they could run at maybe 60% round the clock. I'm pulling that number out of my ass, but you get the point. It would take a massive effort to make that many units, but the effect could be massive.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-08-06 16:28|| 2008-08-06 16:28|| Front Page Top

#18 3dc

In case you are actually serious, you should realize that the current in a lightening stroke is very, very serious stuff -- something like 100,000 amps or thereabouts (you probably have a 30 amp circuit breaker for your electric clothes dryer).

Posted by mhw">mhw 2008-08-06 16:49|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2008-08-06 16:49|| Front Page Top

#19 mhw - I know...
in the 30s somebody tried to capture a lightning bolt with a giant lead-acid battery 3 sq blocks by 3 stories.
Kite went up.
Bolt came down
a 3 block pile of lead slag was the result.

UV lasers have had some success creating an ionized path for a bolt.

The big problem has aways been oodles of current in an instant.

Capacitors have a charge discharge curve much faster than a batteries - think attempts at fusion reactors or rail guns...
A lightning bolt has lots of power in it.... Free power if it could be harnessed or captured..

On the same token... if the heat of a bolt could be captured in a giant tank of salt (most phase change energy of any common substance) then slowly drained away by boiler tubes for a generator turbine... same thing...
Its real mad scientist stuff but worth considering based just on the energy in those bolts.

Posted by 3dc 2008-08-06 17:23|| 2008-08-06 17:23|| Front Page Top

#20 I can see lots of military applicaiton for banks of this fast-discarhge ultracap. Quikc firing hypervelocity rail gun comes to mind, driven by a nuc reactor on a ship.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-06 18:18|| 2008-08-06 18:18|| Front Page Top

#21 portable railgun sniper rifle?

Posted by 3dc 2008-08-06 23:37|| 2008-08-06 23:37|| Front Page Top

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