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2005-03-02 Europe
Spanish foreign minister gloats over UK's coming demise
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Posted by Dan Darling 2005-03-02 1:00:45 AM|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Does this mean that the EU can sell off the Crown Jewels to pay down the debt?
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-03-02 1:47:37 AM||   2005-03-02 1:47:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Via EU Referendum:

...The case arose after Belgian import company Van Parys complained to Belgium's highest court after it was denied licenses in 1998 and 1999 to import a certain quantity of bananas from Ecuador. The refusal was based on EU import quotas and the Belgian court passed it on the ECJ.

Van Parys argued that the EU rules broke international trade regulations, the WTO having ruled in 1997 that the EU contravened world trading rules through its system of tariffs and quotas that protected European, African and Caribbean banana producers against competition from US companies exporting from Latin America.

However, the ECJ held that a WTO ruling does not override European law. "WTO agreements are not in principle among the rules which the Court must take into account when reviewing the legality of measures," the judges declared.

Crucially, the Court said any judicial ruling would trample on the rights of EU institutions – and we mustn't do that, must we. Thus, the only time WTO decisions can be considered is when the EU has already modified its own rules in order to abide by the trade body's rulings....

Good-bye WTO!
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-03-02 1:50:00 AM||   2005-03-02 1:50:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Here's a comment from a poster:

It ensures that WTO negotiations are at a European level and not a bilateral level which is logical. Only signatories to international agreements are bound to enforce them, and the United States has quite a list of rulings it has chosen to ignore or failed to implement. The WTO is not a representative body in any sense and is hardly one regarded with any popular support.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-03-02 1:52:27 AM||   2005-03-02 1:52:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Knowing The Sun, wanna bet that this minister probably never mentioned the United Kingdom once in the interview, let alone "gloated over its demise"?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 1:59:39 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 1:59:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I'll take that bet, via EU Referendum, if I read this correctly:

suppose they do not really mean to sound funny but they do. Café Babel is an online European youth magazine, created by several students who were in Strasbourg on Erasmus scholarships.
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-03-02 2:20:17 AM||   2005-03-02 2:20:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 C'mon Aris. That's a pathetic argument as it does not exclude the UK, but rather throws it in with the rest of the EU membership. Try again.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2005-03-02 2:30:33 AM||   2005-03-02 2:30:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 That's a pathetic argument as it does not exclude the UK, but rather throws it in with the rest of the EU membership

So you don't see any difference at all between "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of the United Kingdom", and "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of nation-states"?

I wonder -- can you see any difference between "I am happy over the demise of city-states" and "I am happy over the demise of Athens"?

Or for that matter any difference between "I am happy over the demise of monarchy" and "I am happy over the demise of Queen Elizabeth II"?

Silly me, when I read an article about someone gloating over the demise of a certain specific country, I expect him to atleast have mentioned that country, not made general comments about the evolution of politics and the role (or lack thereof) of nations.

A pathetic argument? If you are willing to eat the crap that The Sun's feeding you -- worse that Baghdad Bob, worse than Pravda -- be my guest. But I will keep on disputing their lies and twisted propaganda.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 3:19:33 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 3:19:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 
Posted by FlameBait 2005-03-02 3:59:14 AM||   2005-03-02 3:59:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 The Sun's ... worse that Baghdad Bob, worse than Pravda...

LOL! Ignorant. Hysteric. Pathetic. With a rich smothering of irrelevant sophism. Quintessentially Aris.
Posted by Bulldog  2005-03-02 4:01:05 AM||   2005-03-02 4:01:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Ignorant, hysteric, pathetic?

True, however: The Sun lies much more shamelessly than either Baghdad Bob or Pravda.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 4:11:55 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 4:11:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Um. No it doesn't.
Posted by Bulldog  2005-03-02 4:16:13 AM||   2005-03-02 4:16:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 But you can prove me wrong, Bulldog. Just find me Moratino's quote where he supposedly boasts that "BRITAIN’S days as an independent country will soon be over"

The first sentence in the article, and I'd bet my computer it's a shameless lie and that Moratino never even mentioned Britain.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 4:16:39 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 4:16:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 You find a transcript, you lazy scumbag. I've got work to do. Besides, isn't it obvious that Moratinos doesn't have to have mentioned Britain, explicitly, for that sentence to be accurate once you consider that the UK is one of those nation states which will be affected by the "surrender of member states’ sovereignty"?
Posted by Bulldog  2005-03-02 4:27:23 AM||   2005-03-02 4:27:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 I think a United States of Europe is not a bad idea in the long run. People, like Aris, seem to want it very badly. But sadly, they are willing to set up a monster that doesn't provide adequate representation, just to get it done.

Aris - I hope you get paid to come in here and cheerlead. Otherwise, rather than convincing a bunch of Americans - who really don't care if you bow before Brussels - you should be demanding that your rights are protected.

You are like the Palestinians - cheerleading for your leaders rather than holding them accountable to you. Rather than convincing me that you aren't getting taxation without representation - you should be convincing yourself....cause we don't really give a darn.
Posted by 2b 2005-03-02 7:51:44 AM||   2005-03-02 7:51:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Well now,Aris.It does not take a flash of brilliance to see that he meant all of Euorpe.I find it hard to believe you are so much in favor of giving up your freedom in favor of the EU super state.Awhile back I ask several questions about voteing rights in the EU and the answers I got boiled down to"ain't got none".2b said it better.
Posted by raptor 2005-03-02 8:07:06 AM||   2005-03-02 8:07:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 I don't like the thought of bein mixed up with those hairy greek arse bandits. The EU constitution referendum hasn't a snowball in hell's chance of succeeding in Britain. Look at some of the lunatic decisions we've had to accept via the Euro Court of Human Rights - hardly confidence inspiring. The Sun may be a piss-poor newspaper but it does accurately reflect the mood of the country in this regard.
Posted by Howard UK 2005-03-02 8:16:45 AM||   2005-03-02 8:16:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 as in all attempts to conquer - the British stand and fight.
Posted by 2b 2005-03-02 8:35:09 AM||   2005-03-02 8:35:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 You find a transcript, you lazy scumbag

Which would have been a much easier job, if the Sun had enough professionalism to mention *where* Moratino ever said such a thing and to whom. But ofcourse that would have made debunking its lies quite easier.

I have wasted time to debunk Sun lies a dozen times over. I don't plan to do it all over again every time an idiot claims Sun to be trustworthy again. I'm not getting paid for this either.

It's you who insulted me, Bulldog, it's not me who insulted you. It's you who called me a "scumbag" just because I don't accept the words of what is quite possibly the most lying so-called "newspaper" that has ever existed in the face of the world -- and now it's *you* who don't dare put your money where your mouth is.

Besides, isn't it obvious that Moratinos doesn't have to have mentioned Britain

Yes, it's quite obvious, "scumbag", that you don't give a damn about Ministry-of-Truth perversion of facts by adding interpretation and opinion in there without marking them as such. The fact that the article clearly implies something false-as-hell (a Spanish minister gloating over the demise of Britain) doesn't mean a damn to you.

Geez, "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of France" wouldn't have had the same propagandistic feel to it, would it? "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of Germany"? "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of Malta"? "Spanish Minister gloats over the demise of Spain"?

Why aren't *those* titles chosen for the head of the article? Geez, is it because they don't manipulate europhobia as efficiently?

After all the ends justify the means according to you, and so what are a dozen little lies, in order to support what to you is the greater Truth of the eeeeeevilness of the EU.

You, Bulldog, are indeed Minitru come to life. And you may definitely consider that an insult, scumbag.

And any of the rest of you -- if you don't care either whether Spanish minister actually mentioned Britain in discussing the accuracy of an article whose first sentence is "Britain's days as an independent country will soon be over, Spain’s foreign minister boasted yesterday.", then you are also contemptible tools of Minitru, who don't give a damn about factual truth when you are serving the Greater Truths of your private ideologies.

I don't like the thought of bein mixed up with those hairy greek arse bandits. [...]Look at some of the lunatic decisions we've had to accept via the Euro Court of Human Rights

Do you know that the European Court of Human Rights isn't actually connected to the EU, right, "hairy" Brit "arse bandit"?

The EU constitution referendum hasn't a snowball in hell's chance of succeeding in Britain.

And because UK loves being the little dishonest and whining saboteur, there's likewise a snowball's chance in hell of UK withdrawing from the EU.

FUCKING LEAVE THE EU ALREADY AND STOP OBSTRUCTING THE OTHER NATIONS.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 9:55:19 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 9:55:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 so there
Posted by shellback 2005-03-02 10:09:12 AM||   2005-03-02 10:09:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 so there
Posted by shellback 2005-03-02 10:09:14 AM||   2005-03-02 10:09:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 as in all attempts to conquer - the British stand and fight.

Yes, any one of those days the Brits (with the help of the always trustworthy The Sun) are gonna revise away the fact that it's they who applied to the European Communities for membership. They are also gonna revise away the fact, that it's the European Communities that first turned them away (French objections), and then they had to reapply a decade later.

The new "truth" (more accurately known as "lie") will be that the evil continentals tried to conquer Britain and in decade-long struggles the British people kept on bravely fighting against the tyrannical overlordship of the continental bureaucrats.

Above all else the questions that must never been asked are "Why don't the Brits just ask to leave then? Who is stopping them?"
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 10:11:18 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 10:11:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Hokey smokes, Bullwinkle! These guys are really uptight about whether it's Britian or all the other EU countries!

If anybody believes the Spanish guy, please see Yugoslavia. Oh, that's right.....
Posted by Bobby 2005-03-02 10:13:07 AM||   2005-03-02 10:13:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Who pissed in his Wheaties this morning?
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 10:13:24 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 10:13:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Who pissed in his Wheaties this morning?

We've established that. First it was the lying British tabloidism, then it was Bulldog.

But thanks for once again bravely bravely running away to hide behind personal comments, brave Sir Robert.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 10:20:39 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 10:20:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Go ahead and enjoy your new found European-ness - don't expect the Brits or Americans to come running when it f*cks up. The Euro Court may or may not be part of the EU - but it's certainly representative of the usual bullshit from the continent. Your screed included, Aris.
Posted by Howard UK 2005-03-02 10:22:28 AM||   2005-03-02 10:22:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 I see. I'm no longer even allowed to make a joking comment on a thread in which Aris the Great has spewed.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 10:24:52 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 10:24:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Obviously this is a hot button for our Euro friends. So, speaking as a neutral observer....

1) Aris, when Osama says kill all the infidels I'm included even though he didn't mention me by name. Also, since the Sun is a British paper it would be silly for them to use France or Germany or Poland as their example.

BUT.....

2) Bulldog, PeterUK, etc. Aris seems to have a point in requesting another cite for this quote. While I would not be surprised if Moratino believes this, I am surprised if he actually said it. So, are there some better sources available for this quote?

3) If the EU does become a one foreign policy area (aka sovereign state) I assume that you will be either a) removing all the ex-countries from the UN to be replaced by one representative, or 2) telling the US that we now get 50 seats. So, which is it?
Posted by AlanC  2005-03-02 10:27:17 AM||   2005-03-02 10:27:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 I think the original argument was how reporters will sensationalize stories to sell newspapers. Not Aris' national loyalty.
Posted by shellback 2005-03-02 10:32:03 AM||   2005-03-02 10:32:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 "Now the difficult part is approaching — the giving up of sovereignty in the dual arenas of foreign affairs and defence."

If the EU does become a one foreign policy area (aka sovereign state)

One must give up the idea of a sovereign state in order to become a sovereign state.
*snicker*
Posted by 2b 2005-03-02 10:33:54 AM||   2005-03-02 10:33:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Aris, while it's possible that The Sun shamelessly misquoted Mr. Moratinos (see, e.g., the New York Times), the statement about Britain losing its independence is right there in the very first sentence. If he's been misquoted, there should be a correction issued by the Spanish Foreign Ministry. While their website is in Spanish, their press releases so far don't include a protest or correction.
Posted by Steve White  2005-03-02 10:35:52 AM||   2005-03-02 10:35:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 I think I gave you guys the answer in #5 - Café Babel.

Check out EU Referendum.
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-03-02 10:41:11 AM||   2005-03-02 10:41:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 AlanC>

1) Well one big difference with your Osama analogy is that Moratino is not speaking about something that will happen to other nations only, to "infidels". He's including his own nation in this.

So what seems to me to have been a quite clear statement about his desires and hopes over voluntary European unity (his own nation included!) is transformed by Sun into the evil aggression and hostility and desire of conquest of Spaniards and EU folk supposedly hold against the British nation specifically.

If someone says "I hate all people", that's quite different to him saying "I hate black people" or "I hate Jewish people". And it's a lie-by-false-implication if one intentionally tries to present it as such.

Likewise if someone says e.g. "I am happy that European nations will be joined in a single political entity" and this is lyingly translated to "I am glad that UK will be destroyed as an independent nation"

3) Since we are far away from such an eventuality (I doubt it'll happen the next 20 years), it's too soon to even hypothesize what will be the case.

But here's a comment: if the EU got a veto in the UN, it'll be largely irrelevant whether it's counted as 1 or as 40 countries. So it'd probably accept to be counted as one.

In the Council of Europe, the situation is a bit different. Since each country sends a single judge to the European Court of Human Rights, and the EU member-states outnumber the non-EU European countries, I'm sure that each nation would keep on sending individual judges instead of the whole of the EU just sending one, which would vastly change the balance of power in favour of non-EU countries.

Assuming that is, that the C of E will still keep on existing independently and not have fully merged into the EU by that time, at which time the question becomes meaningless.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 10:57:44 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 10:57:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Anonymous2u> Ah, thank you very much: Here's the link to the interview, everyone!

Exactly as I predicted -- no mention at all of United Kingdom at all. Read the interview, people!

And then, Bulldog, let's see if you are shameless enough to claim that the Sun was still not lying.

Steve White, the thing is that the first sentence doesn't actually contain quotes, so they can always claim (just as Bulldog essentially did) that it's their interpretation of Moratino's words, and that they never claimed he actually said them.

That's why I'm calling them shameless.

And asked if the treaty would strip parliaments like Westminster of the right to set their own laws he replied: “Absolutely.”

Ofcourse if you read the actual question, it was this instead: "Does accepting the European Constitution mean a surrender of member states' sovereignty?"

To which he responded "Absolutely".

As always you can trust the Sun to be quite accurate about the words they place *within* quotes, but shamelessly shamelessly lie about all the words outside the actual quotation.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 11:09:18 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 11:09:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 Damn. I must be a psychic. I claimed that Sun lied based on my understanding of the Sun alone, I claimed that Moratino never mentioned the United Kingdom based on my understanding of the Sun alone... I'd not even read the original interview in the first place... and yet I was 100% correct.

*pats self in the back*
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 11:13:00 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 11:13:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Before you sprain your arm, think about what "a surrender of member states' sovereignty" means.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 11:16:45 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 11:16:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 i must say, AK is right on this particular quibble. "I hate religion" is not the same as, say, "I hate Islam" or "I hate the United Methodist Church". The Suns headline writer was twisting for an ideoligical point. OTOH, AFAICT, the Guardian and the Independent do more or less the same thing - this is just a Fleet Street thing - though we have some of it here as well, though not quite as blatantly.

Its still a big deal, that a senior pol is saying sovereignty is on the way out - perhaps not so much on the continent, but certainly in UK. This kind of thing dont help Tony - but then Spanish lefty pols probably dont have much love for Tony anyway. This thing about Iraq .....
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-03-02 11:25:52 AM||   2005-03-02 11:25:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 good strawman Aris! I'm impressed. You managed to deflect from the material fact that a senior pol said sovereignty is out and make this a quibble about the presentation of that fact.

Good job.
Posted by 2b 2005-03-02 11:33:31 AM||   2005-03-02 11:33:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 Aris the Grate is quite practiced with strawmen.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 11:37:12 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 11:37:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 maybe Aris gets a bonus when he does a good backflip. Gimme an "E"....
Posted by anon 2005-03-02 11:39:10 AM||   2005-03-02 11:39:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Thank you Aris for the actual reference.

Unfortunately I think that you are engaging is Sophistry here.

When the NHL cancelled the season, they did not say that the Boston Bruins season was cancelled. However, the headline in the local paper was Bruin's season cancelled! Was this wrong? Of course not it was a specific example of the general case. If Moritano says that ALL member states on accepting the constitution will lose their sovereignty that means that the UK will lose its soverignty, period, full-stop, end of discussion.

To then state that Moritano says the UK will lose its sovereignty is a factual statement, ie NOT a lie.

Liberalhawk, recast your analogy as "I hate all religions!" and see if it then must logically follow that you hate Islam (or Christianity, or Hinduism, or....). I think that it does.
Posted by AlanC  2005-03-02 11:57:19 AM||   2005-03-02 11:57:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 What a load. Would one of those who claims The Sun has misquoted Moratinos please point out the quote or quotes in The Sun's article which are attributed to Moratinos, which are wrong? You know how to recognise a quote? It's in "quotation marks".

A quote must be wrong. I'm not talking about what is the paper's interpretation of his remarks. And if you have quibbles with the interpretation, please tell the rest of us precisely which parts of the interpretation are logically incorrect.
Posted by Bulldog  2005-03-02 12:04:30 PM||   2005-03-02 12:04:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 2b> Truth vs lies aren't "quibbles about presentation", 2b. You are merely a liar.

And the statement about surrender of sovereignty would have been quite a bit more shocking if the European Union wasn't all about the mutual surrender of sovereignty in various policy areas since the very beginning of its conception.

Here's what he said: "Does accepting the European Constitution mean a surrender of member states' sovereignty? Absolutely. The member states have already relinquished control of certain economic and social competences [policy areas], including justice, liberty and security."

Ooh, shocking, that Moratino told us something everyone knew already.

But the Sun and its illiterate-or-dishonest fans want to present the EU Constitution as a dramatic change instead of a step in the process that's been openly been taking place for a very long time now.

So a mere further mutual "surrender of sovereignty" becomes "a death warrant of the sovereignty". And the Constitution now supposedly "strips parliaments like Westminster of the right to set their own laws"

Not unless such right has been stripped already, you lying sons of bitches.

The evolving process, versus the catastrophic change. The truth versus the lie. Saying that something already *is* versus saying that Constitution will alter it dramatically. Is this another quibble, 2b?

Robert and anon, you've lost the fucking argument, the lies of the Sun have been exposed. The Sun doesn't have a right to translate questions or answers without indicating it's so translating them. The Sun doesn't have the moral right to say that Moratino was asked whether the EU Constitution would strip national parliaments of the right to make their own laws, when he simply was NEVER ASKED SUCH A QUESTION.

How long will you keep on shamelessly defending Sun's shameless lies, dragging you both down the same murk. Moratino was NEVER ASKED SUCH A QUESTION.

And that's the fact.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 12:06:09 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 12:06:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 maybe the Sun printed this story to appeal to Britons who do not want to see England's soveriegnty taken away...thus selling more newspapers.
Posted by shellback 2005-03-02 12:15:04 PM||   2005-03-02 12:15:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Bulldog> Only Steve White used the word "misquote". I used the word "lie" instead. As i mentioned in #33, that's the exact argument about quotation marks that the Sun (and its avid fans like you) use. No quotation marks means an utter lack of responsibility about the truth-value of a sentence.

If I said that you admitted you worship Hitler, I'd not be misquoting you either. I'd simply be lying. And so is Sun lying.

"BRITAIN’S days as an independent country will soon be over, Spain’s foreign minister boasted yesterday."

Did he indeed boast that, Bulldog, yes or no?

AlanC> If Moritano says that ALL member states on accepting the constitution will lose their sovereignty that means that the UK will lose its soverignty, period, full-stop, end of discussion.

You know, I'm tired of debating the simple truth or lie of a matter, when the facts are plain. Moratino never boasted about UK soon ceasing to be an independent nation. Moratino never described the Constitution as a death-warrant of sovereignty, he described it as a step in a process, he said that sovereignty has already been surrendered in many areas. Moratino never said that the Constitution will strip national parliaments of the right to make their own laws. Moratino never mentioned the UK at all. Moratino said that if the EU constitution fails to be ratified by everyone, "another method of integration will have to be found".

If the Sun simply mentioned where the interview was given (the words Cafe Babel were enough for me to google up the interview), its readers would have been able to check up on the facts on their own.

But facts have to first pass through the Sun filter of blatant lies before they can be trusted to be read by the UK public, it seems. You can read the quoted answers, but the unquoted questions are distorted beyond recognition. Opinion is stated as fact, and interpretation as reality.

Viva the ministry of truth and its chief agent in Rantburg, Bulldog.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 12:20:05 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 12:20:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Maybe they printed it to get Aris' goat?
Posted by Bobby 2005-03-02 12:23:12 PM||   2005-03-02 12:23:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 "...murk..."? How quaint. Oh pshaw! Y'all surely recognize that the only people headed down the murk are the European people, except perhaps for the King of the Belgians, the E.U. bureaucrats, and certain Greek bureaucrat-wannabes.
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 12:23:16 PM||   2005-03-02 12:23:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Why would anyone want Aris' goat? Let's not go there.
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 12:24:41 PM||   2005-03-02 12:24:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 To "get my goat" only before the actual source of the interview was discovered. Once the link to the actual was found, they're only getting my gloat instead. :-)

*gloat*gloat*gloat*

I'm bookmarking this thread for whenever I need an example of Sun lies and ridiculous justifications thereof, including the "if it's not in a quote it can't be a lie, and newspapers need never distinguish clearly between facts and interpretations"-type of defense.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 12:36:51 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 12:36:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Liberalhawk, recast your analogy as "I hate all religions!" and see if it then must logically follow that you hate Islam (or Christianity, or Hinduism, or....). I think that it does.

Ok, so lets say Christopher Hitchens says "i hate all religions" (which i rather suspect he does) Lets say the New York Times headlines "Prominent war on terrorism supporter says he hates Islam" - would that be a fair headline? I dont think so.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-03-02 12:39:05 PM||   2005-03-02 12:39:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 LH, fair? What's unfair about it if it's true?

Now, your analogy is bad because the NYT is not tied to Islam the way that the Sun is tied to the UK.

Suppose, to your analogy, the Christian Science Monitor had a headline that "Christopher Hitchens says he hates Christain Science!"

Would that be fair? Of course it would. The paper doesn't care about Islam or Judaism only about Christain Science so that's what they stress.

It is not a lie, or even particularly mis-leading.
Posted by AlanC  2005-03-02 12:48:08 PM||   2005-03-02 12:48:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 When the NHL cancelled the season, they did not say that the Boston Bruins season was cancelled. However, the headline in the local paper was Bruin's season cancelled! Was this wrong?

If they said that "NHL cancels Bruins season" that would be profoundly misleading, I think.
How about this one "Bush cuts taxes for wealthy Jews" = well he did, didnt he?
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-03-02 12:51:01 PM||   2005-03-02 12:51:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 You know, in one sense this thread reminds me of some of the abortion debates. One side uses obfuscation and euphemism to try and soften the impact, the other side wants to point out all the gory details to harshen the impact.

Neither side is debating that what actually happens, happens, just the strength and clarity of the adjectives.
Posted by AlanC  2005-03-02 12:51:41 PM||   2005-03-02 12:51:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Aris, did I defend the Sun? Or did I ask you to contemplate on the meaning of "surrender of member states' sovereignty"?

If you think I was defending the Sun, you're doing EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 12:52:32 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 12:52:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 alan c - of course its misleading, cause it implies that Hitch singled out Christian Science, which he didnt. Also the CSM covers news about all religions, just as the Sun covers news about all Euro nations (though it would still be misleading even if they didnt.)

"Ford to the Bronx - Drop Dead!"




Posted by liberalhawk 2005-03-02 12:55:19 PM||   2005-03-02 12:55:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 It is good that the truth of the destruction of English freedom via the bureaufascism of the EU is coming out now, after being denied for the last 8 years by the Blairites.
Posted by Ernest Brown 2005-03-02 12:57:31 PM|| [http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com]  2005-03-02 12:57:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Neither side is debating that what actually happens, happens, just the strength and clarity of the adjectives.

thats true. Somebody posted the Sun Headline, AK as a good debater skipped the substance and attacked the headline. Instead of refocusing on the substance, a bunch of people chose to defend the Sun, thus letting AK off the hook on substance.

You will notice that in my first post on this, i tried to refocus on substance.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-03-02 12:57:40 PM||   2005-03-02 12:57:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 AlanC, here's a different analogy. E.g. George Bush says "I don't trust people easily", and a minority rights monitor/whatever translates that as "George Bush says he doesn't trust African-Americans easily".

AlanC, Moratino talked about European integration and boasted about the European project as a whole. He never mentioned or gave a hint that he was interested in any one particular country at all, with the exception of his own. Sun presented it as if he cared enough to not only mention UK specifically but to actually boast over its demise. A person that doesn't have the original interview has no way of knowing which parts are facts and which are interpretations.

For all we know Moratino may be just as happy with the United Kingdom outside the EU, just as I would be, he probably wants countries to join only voluntarily and with the full consent of their people.

But The Sun misleads the reader to feel hostility for this evil continental that is boasting over the demise of their country, whether they themselves want it or not.

That's a lie. It's not just a misinterpretation, because they never present it as *their* interpretation of his words, they present them as if he actually did the thing they describe to him. When you present an interpretation as a fact, that's a lie, regardless of whether you believe your interpretation to be correct.

And that leaves aside all the *rest* of their lies and misrepresentations about the specific questioning.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 1:04:30 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 1:04:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 From the Cafe Babel article:

Do you believe in the possible virtue of a two-speed Europe?

I think that the process of ratification is not going to fail. But of course, if it isn't ratified, another method of integration will have to be found.

Hmmm... I wonder what "other method of integration" he might be thinking of?
Posted by Dave D. 2005-03-02 1:05:17 PM||   2005-03-02 1:05:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 This thread brought to you by:

The Letters E and U
Posted by badanov  2005-03-02 1:06:55 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2005-03-02 1:06:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 It Is good that the truth of the destruction of English freedom via the bureaufascism of the EU is coming out now...

Yes Ernest B., it is, but what happens if the UK votes "NO" on the constitution? The French have no balls, but the Spaniards might (from the sound of the article) get the Germans to get together and physically threaten the UK....
Remember Hitler and Franco were buddies...

We in the US have problems too...

Our Supreme Court, a nine member politbureau, has determined that we are subject to European Law, so I guess the next step is to apply for EU membership?

The politbureau can invalidate any law and is answerable to no one.

Britain thinks THEY have problem?
Posted by BigEd 2005-03-02 1:10:51 PM||   2005-03-02 1:10:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 For all we know Moratino may be just as happy with the United Kingdom outside the EU, just as I would be, he probably wants countries to join only voluntarily and with the full consent of their people.

As Dave D. pointed out, from the interview:

But of course, if it isn't ratified, another method of integration will have to be found.

I think it's safe to say Moratino has a flexible definition of "consent".
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 1:11:55 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 1:11:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 liberalhawk> Not having the original interview, I could only attack what seemed to me the most obvious of lies, the idea that Moratino would single out United Kingdom. I bet that Moratino never even mentioned it -- I was correct.

The rest of the lies in the article were attacked by me after I had the interview itself.

If anyone wants to discuss the substance of the interview itself (in the link I gave), as opposed to the Sun loose "interpretation" thereof, be my guest.

Dave D> probably the two-speed Europe (or three-speed, or four-speed) suggested in the question?

If only UK objects, hopefully the rest of the 24 nations will manage to proceed with a slightly modified Constitution that binds only them after only a few years delay. UK renegotiates its relationship with the EU, and the rest of us keep our fingers crossed it won't be *too* obstructionist in that process.

I don't have much hope for that. I think the UK will keep on obstructing for half a decade at the very least before it lets other EU nations do what they want with themselves.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 1:14:09 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 1:14:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Did somebody get the fire extinguisher? All this talk aout nothing sure gets the thermometer jumping! I mean I've been to Europe and I still can't see what the excitement is all about.
Posted by AlmostAnonymous2520  2005-03-02 1:15:14 PM||   2005-03-02 1:15:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 Aris, did you read my post, #53?

What do you have to say for yourself?
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 1:15:28 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 1:15:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 BigEd: Please elaborate how we are subject to European law.
Posted by shellback 2005-03-02 1:19:20 PM||   2005-03-02 1:19:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Shellback: see this story.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 1:21:05 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 1:21:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 BigEd> but the Spaniards might (from the sound of the article) get the Germans to get together and physically threaten the UK....

The idea of Spain (or France) and Germany physically threatening another EU nation with military force is about as far removed from reality as saying that George W. Bush is a Vermontian Muslim with communist leanings in the pay of Osama Bin Laden.

People in Rantburg keep on claiming that I don't know squat about America, but it's comments like this that show how far removed from European reality some American people are.

You don't know diddly-squat about Europe, BigEd.

Robert> Given that the question itself suggested the two-speed Europe, I think we can be sure that forcing other nations was not firstmost in his mind.

And btw, in response to your comment #53, please stop bravely bravely running away and tell us what you actually think about the truthfulness of the Sun or lack thereof. Instead of making us guess about it.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 1:21:30 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 1:21:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 "The idea of Spain (or France) and Germany physically threatening another EU nation with military force is about as far removed from reality as saying that George W. Bush is a Vermontian Muslim with communist leanings in the pay of Osama Bin Laden."

Excellent point; Europeans have a long history of settling their disputes by dialog and compromise.
Posted by Dave D. 2005-03-02 1:33:14 PM||   2005-03-02 1:33:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 And btw, Robert, if I misinterpret your statements in comments in this thread, atleast everyone else visiting this thread can read your actual comments by themselves as well. And see how well I've "interpreted" them or not.

I wasn't a reporter reporting elsewhere on the words you spoke. It's extremely different to go somewhere else and making distorted representations of an interview, with readers not having a chance to figure out by themselves which is fact and which is fiction, since the Sun wasn't providing a link or a reference either.

Now the lies will be propagated and Europhobes will be claiming in a very short while "The Spanish foreign minister admitted that the European Constitution is a death-warrant for national sovereignty. Yes! "Death warrant"! That's the actual words he used. And he replied "absolutely" when asked whether the Constitution strips the right of national parliaments to make laws of themselves. And he openly gloated over the demise of the UK."
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 1:39:17 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 1:39:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Given that the question itself suggested the two-speed Europe, I think we can be sure that forcing other nations was not firstmost in his mind.

No doubt he simply intends to keep holding votes until he gets the result he wants. Or maybe he'll come up with a Third Way to get what he wants.

And btw, in response to your comment #53, please stop bravely bravely running away and tell us what you actually think about the truthfulness of the Sun or lack thereof. Instead of making us guess about it.

WTF? How am I "running away"? Why am I required to take a stand on what the Sun wrote? When did Rantburg become your personal pissing ground?

For what it's worth, the Sun read what they wanted to into what Moratinos said. They highlighted an aspect that made their point. Did they quote him exactly precisely? No -- and that's not right. They should have at least cited the source, and most properly should have given the full quote and made their argument from there.

Now, why did you go crazy in #42? Would you care to explain where I "shamelessly defend[ed] Sun's shameless lies"?
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 1:42:06 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 1:42:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 FYI - I gave up Aris for Lent and I highly recommend it to y'all.
Posted by Frank G  2005-03-02 1:44:46 PM||   2005-03-02 1:44:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 Excellent point; Europeans have a long history of settling their disputes by dialog and compromise.

I'd return your sarcasm to you, but I'm too tired for that, so here's the unsarcastic version: Americans have a long history of enslaving the black population, centuries and centuries of it. How likely do you think it is for black slavery to happen again any time soon?

Foolish "long history" pseudo-argumentation is for the people who don't have a clue of present-day realities and attitudes.

No present-day EU nation is going to physically threaten another EU nation. In the continent itself such a thing is inconceivable.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 1:45:43 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 1:45:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 WTF? How am I "running away"? Why am I required to take a stand on what the Sun wrote?

Well, you kinda commented on the thread, so I thought you should have an opinion on the content thereof, other than to make snarky one-liner comments on my person.

Thanks that you've clarified your position, though.

Would you care to explain where I "shamelessly defend[ed] Sun's shameless lies"?

Well, when you waved aside my attack on said Sun lies as "strawmen" it definitely seemed like a defense of said lies. If I misinterpreted that, I'm sorry.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 1:50:19 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 1:50:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 FYI - I gave up Aris for Lent and I highly recommend it to y'all.

Wise advice, but this was a case where it was SO easy to trap Aris in his own hypocrisy it was irresistible.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 1:51:28 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 1:51:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 Well, when you waved aside my attack on said Sun lies as "strawmen" it definitely seemed like a defense of said lies. If I misinterpreted that, I'm sorry.

Comment #38 -- I said nothing about your "attack", but rather about your past experience with strawmen.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-03-02 1:54:29 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-03-02 1:54:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Aris, I did not know why you remind me of Vizzini from Princess Bride flick.

"Inconceivable" clinched it.
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-02 1:56:43 PM||   2005-03-02 1:56:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 
Posted by half 2005-03-02 2:03:34 PM||   2005-03-02 2:03:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 uh oh.... looks liker the bill has come due. please delter.
Posted by half 2005-03-02 2:05:13 PM||   2005-03-02 2:05:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 sobiesky - lol!

Vizzini: Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong - that's what's so funny. I switched glasses when your back was turned. Ha-ha, you fool. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian, when *death* is on the line.". Hahahahahah.
[Vizzini falls over dead]
Posted by 2b 2005-03-02 2:07:35 PM||   2005-03-02 2:07:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 well, #68 might've been sarcastic but it was funny. Of course, anything could happen during the next 30 years of "elegant decay" in Europe.
Posted by shellback 2005-03-02 2:21:30 PM||   2005-03-02 2:21:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Frank G, Don't let Easter be a reason to start again. Some bad habits are best kicked permanently.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-03-02 2:23:02 PM||   2005-03-02 2:23:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 So I am kinda new here, and thought I understood what a troll was - as recently as yesterday. So will someone please explain the difference between Aris and a troll?
Posted by Bobby 2005-03-02 2:43:34 PM||   2005-03-02 2:43:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 A troll is a supernatural creature (either a dwarf or a giant) that is supposed to live in caves or in the mountains.
http://chem.ps.uci.edu/~bjfinlay/Troll.JPG

Aris is an unnatural creature (a geek that never sleeps) that lives in a darkened room in Athens, Greece.
http://users.otenet.gr/~katsaris/misc/grad8-800.jpg
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 2:56:13 PM||   2005-03-02 2:56:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 Jeebus...look what I missed out on. Mutually surrendered sovereignty? Sounds like voluntary dhimmitude to me. Bobby, if you want to see a troll...look up some postings by Murat. Tip: have a barf bag handy.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2005-03-02 3:01:38 PM||   2005-03-02 3:01:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 Good grief, I have to work for 2 hours and there's more than 40 replies.

To LH I will concede that the headline is misleading in the same way that most media headlines are misleading.

However, I have read nothing here or elsewhere that contradicts the contention that what Moratinos said was that adoption of the EU constitution meant the end of national sovereignty for whatever country adopted it, including the UK.

In a world where so much information is whizzing by it's easy to miss the local impact of some airy generalization pronounced by a politician until the real, specific meaning is revealed, shorn of all frills and diplomatic baggage.

The Sun seems to have provided a service to Brits that might not have been paying sufficient attention to the mumbles from Whitehall.
Posted by AlanC  2005-03-02 3:06:24 PM||   2005-03-02 3:06:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 JOKE THREAD:

Let's make up punchlines to this.

What is the difference between Aris and a troll?
Posted by badanov  2005-03-02 3:08:14 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2005-03-02 3:08:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 What is the difference between a Troll born North of the Arctic Circle and a Troll born South of the Arctic Circle?
A Northen Troll says “God Morgen.”
A Southern Troll says “God Morgen, ya all.”

Source: http://www.trollshop.net/trolls/troll-jokes/
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 3:41:15 PM||   2005-03-02 3:41:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 I fear brother Tom has fallen off the wagon, and evidently been savering up stuff.

Let's have an amen from the Choir!
Posted by R Foxx 2005-03-02 4:45:44 PM||   2005-03-02 4:45:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 I have sinned, brother Foxx. Like the Trojans before me, I have fallen prey to Greek deceit. As it says in Epeius I, Chapter 6, Verse 1, "Beware geeks bearing snits."
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 4:56:17 PM||   2005-03-02 4:56:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 A troll lives in Norway and Sun is deadly to him. But after all between rainy days and short winter days it is entirely possible for Norvegian trolls to survive.

Aris is a mystery: the only known troll who lives in a sunny country. World's greatest scientists are investigating his case.
Posted by JFM  2005-03-02 5:56:36 PM||   2005-03-02 5:56:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 Somebody posted the Sun Headline, AK as a good debater skipped the substance and attacked the headline.

I don't know what you mean there, Lh. The posted headline is not The Sun's own headline - which does not mention the UK at all.

Aris is not a 'good' debater. He's a dishonest, sophistic, unbalanced and evasive debater who, judging by the responses to him, enjoys little to no respect or sympathy in this forum. He does nothing to help his cause. Nothing about that is 'good' unless you think that the measure of successful debating is how much animosity you create.
Posted by Cleamp Angereling9543 2005-03-02 6:02:05 PM||   2005-03-02 6:02:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 I've never been dishonest, and I've never evaded a single relevant question posed to me. Unlike you "Cleamp Angereling9543" I've never hidden cowardly attacks behind false names. I've also never launched personal attacks on people's appearances, I've never googled their names to find pieces of embarrasing information like Tom and Frank, I've never mocked their usage of language like Frank G and .com, and I've never bravely bravely ran away like other trolls like Crawford are still doing, cowardily saying that they never meant their little jabs.

When I jab at people, Crawford, I don't pretend innocence afterwards. You certainly don't have the courage of a real debate, but do try to have atleast the courage of your insults.

And Cleamp, it's not the headline that mentions the UK. It's the first sentence of the article. Same deal.

All of you have turned the thread into a bunch of ad hominem again, instead of admitting that the Sun shamelessly lied about what it claimed -- even after I proved it to you. Your waste gave me the time to watch the last third of the 3rd season of "24" and revealed your petty characters and the impotency of your argument in trying to defend the indefensible. My gain, your loss. Cheers. :-)

Go on being informed by "The Sun", which is still the most shamelessly lying newspaper I've ever encountered. Little ignorant and parochial idiots whose minds are 60 years out of date, enough so that they think Germany will be exerting military aggression against UK any time soon.

Just answer me this: How in the world's name did I guess that the UK was never even mentioned in the article? Was it because I knew the Sun for what it was, and none of you did?

Yeah, it was.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 6:29:28 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 6:29:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#93 aris..does your mother know you are still up?
Posted by 2b 2005-03-02 6:36:31 PM||   2005-03-02 6:36:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#94 DOES THIS MEAN THAT EU WILL HAVE ONLY ONE SEAT IN THE U.N. AND IN THE SECURITY COUNSIL JUST LIKE U.S. OR THAT THE U.S. WILL HAVE SOME ADDITIONAL (STATES) MEMBERS???
Posted by wonderer 2005-03-02 6:40:43 PM||   2005-03-02 6:40:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#95 For the people who wondered what's the difference between a troll and me: 2b just answered it for you.

He's it.

Other examples of trolls here are Robert who wondered around threads calling me a "cunt", Frank and Tom who always posted immediately after I posted, not to answer or comment but just to write "ignore', and so forth and so forth.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 6:43:35 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 6:43:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#96 wondered> I have no clue whether EU will ever have only one seat in the UN or not. It's probably 20 years too early to start wondering about such a question.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 6:45:01 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 6:45:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#97 go to bed Aris, you are spinning out of control into a whiney baby.
Posted by 2b 2005-03-02 6:48:14 PM||   2005-03-02 6:48:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#98 Aris, I haven't read the other 96 messages on this thread yet... I just wanted to know, since there seems to be an Argue With Aris thread, if you saw the message re: de Villepin's statements regarding Georgia.

Since you've expressed concern about possible Russian ambitions towards Georgia in the past, do you have any concerns now that France appears to be adopting the Russian position regarding problems in the Pankisi Gorge?
Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-03-02 6:55:31 PM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]  2005-03-02 6:55:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#99 oh my god...Phil! You're gonna wake the baby!
Posted by 2b 2005-03-02 7:00:46 PM||   2005-03-02 7:00:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#100 I claim #100. Someone else can have #200.
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 7:02:45 PM||   2005-03-02 7:02:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#101 2b, be you a He?
Posted by trailing wife 2005-03-02 7:04:21 PM||   2005-03-02 7:04:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#102 Yeah, you're a crap debater alright, Aris. A useless piece of shit with far too much time on his hands yet who still fails to make any impact whatsoever. The King of Ad Hominem and the laughing stock of the 'burg. I'll admit your ludicrously pompous drama-queenery was amusing for a long time but the joke's worn very thin.

"The Sun", which is still the most shamelessly lying newspaper I've ever encountered.

And you're the most shamelessly clueless twat I've ever encountered. Your total lack of intelligence is the reason you are unable to even comprehend the journalistic style of a British tabloid newspaper without getting your frilly knickers in a twist. If you don't 'get' it, why do you read it? Just look away, and save yourself a coronary. The subtleties of low end journalism are way over your head, and I for one wouldn't expect any less from a stereotypically humourless socialist tranzi bigot.

Cleamp-whatever was me. My Rantburg cookie went AWOL.
Posted by Bulldog  2005-03-02 7:09:22 PM||   2005-03-02 7:09:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#103 How do you say "Why are you grinning at me, Private Pyle" in Greek?
Posted by 11A5S 2005-03-02 7:55:13 PM||   2005-03-02 7:55:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#104 Phil> "the message re: de Villepin's statements regarding Georgia"

No, I've not seen it yet. Will be right back at you after posting this.

Your total lack of intelligence is the reason you are unable to even comprehend the journalistic style of a British tabloid newspaper without getting your frilly knickers in a twist

Oooh, I don't understand the *subtleties* of a journalistic system that is dependent on lies and on mixing fact with blatant opinion without labeling which is which. Unfortunately for you, Bulldog, I understand such subtleties very well, that's why I was able to make a pretty good guess at the real content of the interview based on the mere scrap of real information provided in that tabloid shit you claim to call a newspaper.

A journalistic style that is dependent on blatant lies, is not a "journalistic style", it's something to use to wipe your arse with.

"The subtleties of low end journalism are way over your head,"

Then how was I able to figure out the truth out from that pack of lies? How was I able to guess the absense of any mention of the United Kingdom from the real interview, when Steve White thought that something that should have been denied by the Spanish government or whatever if it was false?

I understand the "subtleties" of such propaganda quite well. The difference between you and me is that I don't endorse it, nor do I find it deserving of the word "journalism", whether low-end or otherwise.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 8:02:34 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 8:02:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#105 Holy Kleenex, Batman, it was right under our nose, and we blew it!
First the Sun is a lie, then it's a lie because Britain isn't mentioned specificly, then it's a lie because the European nations need not give up their rights of representation, only Britain. OMG, WTF, I can't believe the clarity of it all completely avoided me!
Posted by Asedwich  2005-03-02 8:05:30 PM||   2005-03-02 8:05:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#106 Two months to May... Shazaam!
http://www.jimcarreywebsite.com/jgomer.jpg
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 8:05:53 PM||   2005-03-02 8:05:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#107 Asedwich, the article is a complete lie because there's not a single word outside quotes that refers to a real fact or to a real question. Real answers are coupled with utterly fake questions, and events take place that never happened.

Is that enough of a definition of a "lie" for you, Asedwich, or are you gonna doublethink your way out of it, by saying that since the Sun's a tabloid it doesn't need to be accurate about which questions were really asked and which statements were really made?

Blame the lies on the "journalistic style". I dare ya.

Phil> Yes, I do have concerns. I think that Chirac's government is playing a very dangerous game of Eurasian conciliation/appeasement. Disagreements between France and Russia over Lebanon (and other places) show us that it's not a complete alliance, but the Russophilic tendency in Chirac's government is definitely worrying.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 8:15:55 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 8:15:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#108 The Sun is garbage...case closed.
Posted by shellback 2005-03-02 8:26:12 PM||   2005-03-02 8:26:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#109 You haven't been at the 'burg long, shellback. The only thing that closes a case on the Greek is the clock running out at midnight.
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 8:30:07 PM||   2005-03-02 8:30:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#110 Or no one responding to his BS.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-03-02 8:32:24 PM||   2005-03-02 8:32:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#111 That's never happened, Mrs. D, not even when Frank and I tried to get everyone to ignore him. He's been going for 18 hours now and is probably a self-sustaining reaction by this point anyway. At best he stays in one thread.
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 8:36:43 PM||   2005-03-02 8:36:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#112 He's EUrofiliac. He's so besotted with the EU idea that once he can start gushing it, there's no end.

It is actually a defense mechanism. He knows, subconsciously, that many of concerns ranted on burg have merit, but his overdeveloped pride does not like bruising and he just jumps into the big river--De Nile.
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-02 8:46:59 PM||   2005-03-02 8:46:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#113 Hey Tom, I've been around long enough to know some people here like to gang up and accuse people of some mighty stupid s**t, as in Aris' case. I don't see him cheerleading for Europe at all. He's simply stating the Sun is full of garbage. We're not talking about the WSJ here, it's the damn Sun after all.
Posted by shellback 2005-03-02 8:52:59 PM||   2005-03-02 8:52:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#114 that many of concerns ranted on burg have merit

Many concerns ranted on burg have merit.

But most of them do not.

Some of them have so little merit that I could post them as parody. "Germany and Spain will militarily force UK to remain in the EU" Insert laughtrack.

Those kinds of "claims" remind me of those folk insistent that a Jewish-Masonic global conspiracy is intent on destroying the Greek Orthodox Church because it's the only thing that stands on its way. So ludicrous that it's a bitter grief that there exist people so ignorant or so fanatical as to take them seriously.

And when I'm bitterly grieving at the ignorance of humanity, I make bitter angry remarks. Perhaps because I believe there's more in stake on the survival of the EU than the question of whether we'll have 40 or 1 seats on the UN table.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 9:14:00 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 9:14:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#115 "Some" people here like to gang up on Aris, shellback? Would that be:

Rex #6, FlameBait #8, Bulldog #9, 2b #14, Howard UK #16, you #19, Robert #23, anon #39, Bobby #45, Tom #46, badanov #86, JFM #90, 11A5S #103, Asedwich #105, Mrs. D #110, and Sobiesky #112.

Tally 'em up -- about 16 "some" people. Perhaps you should ponder what sort of mental illness drives Aris to do this for 18 hours and God-only-knows how many words for making the sole point that The Sun is a tabloid and the article has a U.K. slant. What next -- an entire alternative world wide web dovoted to Aris' assessment of the NYT?
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 9:18:08 PM||   2005-03-02 9:18:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#116 Tom, you keep on repeating that "18 hours" as if it was 18 hours straight. In the meantime I had several hours of sleep, finished up some details on a website I'm constructing, and watched an entire third of a television season on DVD.

Get a grip and stop obsessing over my habits. They are not your concern. Seriously, do you have a crush on me or something? What's this obsessive thingy of yours where you not only search the web for photos of me but even evaluate my web habits?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 9:24:37 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 9:24:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#117 Aris, quite a few times I posted in your defense when I felt you have a good point that may have been misconstrued because, frankly, you're like the boy that cried wolf one time too many.

Unfortunately, these instances of clarity and well though out contributions on your side are rare. Wish that it were otherwise. At least, you are a good target to make fun of, that I have to admit.
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-03-02 9:26:42 PM||   2005-03-02 9:26:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#118 The Greek should not confuse the ability to Google "Katsaris photo" with a crush or "obsessive thingy". Nor should noting the time stamp on #4 be misconstrued as an evaluation of "web habits".

We should all ponder why the Greek enjoys being a target. He needs to get over it before May.
Posted by Tom 2005-03-02 9:34:17 PM||   2005-03-02 9:34:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#119 Sobiesky, I made the claim that the article is lying. I then proceeded to prove it.

I also called The Sun worse than Baghdad Bob or Pravda. Which based on all I've seen is also quite true, regardless of whether you excuse it away by calling it a "tabloid" or not.

For those claims, the first ad hominem insults started flying by Bulldog, calling me "ignorant", "hysteric", "pathetic" and ofcourse a "scumbag".

Then the chorus of idiots began, and as the claims about the lying content of the article wer all confirmed, the chorus immediately switched over to a discussion of my habits whether on the web or personal.

Cheers.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 9:34:24 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 9:34:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#120 The Greek should not confuse the ability to Google "Katsaris photo" with a crush or "obsessive thingy".

Not the ability. Just the desire, Tom. Just the desire.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-03-02 9:36:25 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-03-02 9:36:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#121 Soo, how 'bout them Illini?
Posted by badanov  2005-03-02 9:57:19 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2005-03-02 9:57:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#122 badanov - lol, that made me laugh. Something reading the first 120 posts didn't do (well, I did chuckle a few times)
Posted by Flomorong Gronter7111 2005-03-02 10:31:18 PM||   2005-03-02 10:31:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#123 That was me there. Another victim of the cookie monster.
Posted by Laurence of the Rats  2005-03-02 10:32:10 PM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/]  2005-03-02 10:32:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#124 Big Ed

Re: #60

Just because I criticize the Euro-fascists doesn't mean that I let the U.S. off the hook for statist anti-libertarian tendencies.

I leave that sort of mutton-headed false dilemma to chunderheaded Euro-chauvinists like Aris.
Posted by Ernest Brown 2005-03-02 10:33:51 PM|| [http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com]  2005-03-02 10:33:51 PM|| Front Page Top

23:58 3dc
23:33 3dc
23:24 Aris Katsaris
23:23 Sobiesky
23:16 DMFD
23:01 shellback
22:42 Frank G
22:36 badanov
22:33 Ernest Brown
22:32 Laurence of the Rats
22:31 Frank G
22:31 Flomorong Gronter7111
22:30 Tom Fiedler
22:22 Classical_Liberal
22:19 phil_b
22:16 RoachBOFH
22:15 Classical_Liberal
21:57 badanov
21:56 Sobiesky
21:51 Whiskey Mike
21:50 Sobiesky
21:36 Aris Katsaris
21:34 .com
21:34 Aris Katsaris









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