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2006-01-16 Home Front: WoT

Mexican soldiers crossing border into United States

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Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 08:18|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Marfa???

Marfa, TX is some miles from the border, probably between 50 and 100. If they are in Marfa, TX, then this is more than just a border crossing. This is an expidition by a foreign army into CONUS.

Posted by Texican">Texican 2006-01-16 08:50|| 2006-01-16 08:50|| Front Page Top

#2 Maybe we should put some special operations guys down there. (just a few would do) They could teach them all about ambushes, in fact you might even be able to call it a "crash" course.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2006-01-16 09:01|| 2006-01-16 09:01|| Front Page Top

#3 I don't think the country is ready - yet - for a repeal or modification of posse comitatus, although sadly I think things will get to that point sooner rather than later. I fear we will indeed find the North American command Rummy set up taking an increasing operational role on the ground as well as re: missile and shore defense.

In the meanwhile, more UAVs. In the hands of the Border Patrol. Armed.

At least one project I'm aware of is working the "see and avoid" issues of flying a lot of UAVs in civil airspace. We're gonna need to have that worked out shortly, I suspect.

Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 09:06|| 2006-01-16 09:06|| Front Page Top

#4 I'm no lawyer but I thought the posse comitatus laws forbid US Military from law enforcement activities. This is an armed penetration of our border by another nations military. I don't believe posse comitatus denies the United States military from defending its borders.
Second point. The 82d ABN Div was in New Orleans performing armed patrols.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-01-16 09:34|| 2006-01-16 09:34|| Front Page Top

#5 Texican, it doesn't mean they made it that far. The country is broken down into sectors, and for whatever reason they named that sector after Marfa.

Here's the sector map that the Border Patrol uses. It could be that they got in 100 feet, or a couple of miles. But all the way to Marfa...or Tucson, even, probably not.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-01-16 09:45|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ] 2006-01-16 09:45|| Front Page Top

#6 49Pan, it's true that posse comitatus forbids the use of the military from law enforcement activities on US soil. But where that stops and military attacks start will be argued fiercely in this case because the Mexicans will probably try to tie their activities to hot pursuit of criminals.

Not a plausible argument, but if it is made it will have to be addressed.

Re; the 82nd, 'humanitarian' efforts are allowed under posse comitatus even using regular troops as opposed to the Guard. And IIRC that's how the post-Katrina patrols were described.

But to get back to bigjim's suggestion in #2, there's no reason that Border Patrol working with law enforcement couldn't identify intruders using UAVs and other recon methods. And law enforcement agencies include snipers. But I don't think the majority of Americans will be happy about sniping at Mexican troops until/unless they come to see them as a threat.

A lot of groundwork needs to be laid for dealing with the whole Mexican situation. It's a big and dangerous matter for us, but amorphous and therefore hard for leaders to rally the country around.

Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 09:53|| 2006-01-16 09:53|| Front Page Top

#7 If the military is smart it will make sure posse commitatus is neither modified nor repealed. It is part of what makes the military so highly held in esteem. If the people think it may be used against them, the lost term "standing armies" may come back into common parlance.

Posted by Gen. James Mattoon Scott 2006-01-16 09:56|| 2006-01-16 09:56|| Front Page Top

#8 General, that's exactly what I hear from the military officers I know. They really really do NOT want to lose the bulwark against politicization of the professional military.

Remember folks: Hillary may be POTUS in a few years. Judge policies accordingly.

Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 09:59|| 2006-01-16 09:59|| Front Page Top

#9 LOTP - What about just plain protecting the US from another army? That sounds like what an army is for!
Not this Hillary might be Prez in some future alternate reality stuff.

Posted by 3dc 2006-01-16 10:29|| 2006-01-16 10:29|| Front Page Top

#10 THanks lotp, I am in the military and I would never want to be used against Americans. But we are here to defend America. I see nothing wrong with assisting law enforcment on this issue. Oh and yes, the thought of Hillary being Prez just scares the shit out of me, I am more fearful of what she would do to DOD that I ever was in combat.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-01-16 10:30|| 2006-01-16 10:30|| Front Page Top

#11 What about just plain protecting the US from another army?

When it comes to that - when the protection is against an army acting as such, they will.

Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 10:33|| 2006-01-16 10:33|| Front Page Top

#12 In one 2000 incident, more than 16 Mexican soldiers were arrested by border agents in a small town west of El Paso, in Santa Teresa, N.M., after Mexican soldiers fired on the agents, said T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council.

A little geography lesson. Santa Teresa is a New Mexico burb of the Texas city of El Paso. El Paso is the location of Fort Bliss. Fort Bliss is to be the new home of three brigades of the 1st Armored Division. The 1st AD's personnel are getting a lot of training in Iraq to operate in an environment very similar to that part of the border, both in topography and social behavior.

Posted by Thruling Thimble1239 2006-01-16 11:15|| 2006-01-16 11:15|| Front Page Top

#13 Like everything else in life, when a fav of the liberals ignors posse comitatus its OK, when someone the libs dislike then its a bunch of nazis. Didn't hear too much of a stink using federal troops in this event. Its all about who's ox is being gored.

Posted by Whaique Omerenter2485 2006-01-16 12:14|| 2006-01-16 12:14|| Front Page Top

#14 Pan,
I have to agree with LOTP on this one - look at it this way: don't give Dubya any power you don't want the Hildebeest to have.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2006-01-16 12:22|| 2006-01-16 12:22|| Front Page Top

#15 This report seems to be a stretch. Armed uniformed members of another country's army present in the US without an invitation is a VERY BIG DEAL, Posse Comitatus notwithstanding. I have also spoken to an Air Force vet & retired law officer, they were given a lot of training on PoCom issues & he also thinks it's important that federal military not be involved with civilian law enforcement. But illegal immigration is not immigration. Willful encursions by another country's military over a border is an INVASION.

Posted by Flerert Whese8274 2006-01-16 14:00|| 2006-01-16 14:00|| Front Page Top

#16 I don't get the posse commitatus argument. Maybe I just don't understand. No one is talking about using the US military against US citizens. I'm sure you are not saying that the fact that foreigners manage to illegally get on our soil means that the army is off limits for enforcement. So I guess I just don't understand how posse commitatus even enters the argument.

Besides, I don't want to deny the president powers to protect me just because someone like Hillary might come into office. People in power can more often than not be counted on to abuse their power. The system was set up with that expectation well in mind. What I do want is to assure that if the president does abuse his powers - that there is a check and balance to that power that can deal with it quickly and efficently and fairly.

Posted by 2b 2006-01-16 14:24|| 2006-01-16 14:24|| Front Page Top

#17 #13 - I was around in 1962, and the use of Federal troops at Old Miss was a very big deal at the time. That was the first time I ever heard of posse comitatus. Still don't understand it, but then I'm not a lawyer. The justification was the level of civil disorder along with a court order from the federal level being ignored. This country has been turning a blind eye to all sorts of mischief, mis/non/mal/feasance along the US/Mexican border for decades, which is not likely to end even if a nuke smuggled across that same border kills thousands of Americans. Hardly anyone seems to care about the security of our borders. --- The story in the link #13 supplied needs to be much better publicized. Every document referred to in that book should be scanned and posted on the web for all to review, many more people should be interviewed to flesh out that history and that info also posted for posterity's sake. There's too much history in little-known books being ignored.

Posted by Flerert Whese8274 2006-01-16 14:47|| 2006-01-16 14:47|| Front Page Top

#18 If you've ever spent time on the border, and I have at Bliss, you come to realize just what a farce is being perpetrated. You have to understand that most crime in Mexico is committed by the Federal Police. In this case, the drug dealers and/or smugglers are paying them to assure a safe crossing into the U.S. And they come in no more than a couple miles at most. Usually just hundreds of yards. If we had an honest government, a short diplomatic note saying that ANY crossing would result im immediate death, we could then progress to allowing local citizens to "hunt" on the border. This crap would stop within days. Word travels fast. By the way, think back, why are Bliss and Huachuca on the border ? To stop Mexican incursions. Same thing , just a hundred years later. Our boys are up by White Sands playing war games. Can't be bothered with border anymore.

Posted by SOP35/Rat 2006-01-16 14:50|| 2006-01-16 14:50|| Front Page Top

#19 The Posse Comitatus Act was passed in 1878 as part of the end of Reconstruction to remove the Army from civilian law enforcement and to return it to its role of defending the borders of the United States.

from a paper on applicability of posse commitatus to homeland security.

There is a line between law enforcement and defending the United States that is getting very blurry as a result of terrorism.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-01-16 14:55|| 2006-01-16 14:55|| Front Page Top

#20 I ask anyone who doesn't think there is a problem at the border - have you ever seen the border? It's not like a few Mexicans crossing here and there It's thousands of them, every single night. I remember back before they forced them to cross in Otay and Arizona, you could drive along the inside of the border in Tia Juana and for as many miles as you wished to drive, you could see hundreds and hundreds of them lined up waiting for an opportunity to cross. And that's just in TJ, where you could drive along the border and see them. This occurs all along the entire border.

Posted by 2b 2006-01-16 14:58|| 2006-01-16 14:58|| Front Page Top

#21 I suppose someone will come back and point out to me that no one here is saying that there is not a problem at the border. Ok fine. But I just don't think most people visualize the scope of numbers involved, every day of every year. And that doesn't include those stuffed into gas tanks, tunnels, cargo holds, etc.

Estimated numbers just for the Tuscon Sector:
The numbers of unauthorized immigrants smuggled across this porous border dumbfound the imagination. To date, the U.S. Border Patrol has apprehended 158,782 illegals in 2001. By the Border Patrol's own admission, it catches one alien in five, and admits that around 800,000 have slipped across the U.S. line this year. The local ranchers, who have been watching the border for several generations, strongly disagree. They contend the agency only nets one in 10, and estimate that in 2001 over 1.5 million unlawful immigrants have crossed into America in what the Border Patrol calls the Tucson Sector.

Posted by 2b 2006-01-16 15:13|| 2006-01-16 15:13|| Front Page Top

#22 Agreed with all that. However, until the general public understands the scope of the problem, use of troops to keep out these mini-incursions will cause a lot of opposition and controversy.

Keep an eye on em, push back quietly and in the meanwhile, educate the public. Quickly.

Posted by lotp 2006-01-16 15:19|| 2006-01-16 15:19|| Front Page Top

#23 Militarize the Border Patrol, put it and the Coast Guard under a separate branch of the DOD (Home Defense), build it up to three or four divisions operational, and put a stop to all illicit boundary crossings. Pass a law that they can only operate within 100 miles of the border or nearest land area to the border. Give them the ability, but don't demand they MUST follow "shoot on sight" orders. Allow it to be an individual initiative sort of thing, but BACK THEM UP when they do. Add three engineering brigades - one for the southern border, one for the northwestern border, and one for the northeastern border. Give them responsibility for building and maintaining border crossings, border fences, and armed interdiction zones.

We are in the early stages of a war against an enemy that will do anything, use any opportunity, and conduct any attrocity that will advance its cause. We cannot be complaisant about our undefended and uncontrolled borders.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2006-01-16 15:52|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2006-01-16 15:52|| Front Page Top

#24 The problem is not the people, it is the elites. 100 years ago, yellow journalists would have been having a field day with the border problem. Today, the yellow journalists are delighted with the border problem. all that's changed is what the yellow stands for.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-01-16 16:06|| 2006-01-16 16:06|| Front Page Top

#25 Andrei, you've lost another submarine???

If they disappear, will they be missed?

I remember Kiki Camerena (sp).

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-01-16 16:10|| 2006-01-16 16:10|| Front Page Top

#26 I thought we were the yellow journalists?

Posted by 2b 2006-01-16 16:20|| 2006-01-16 16:20|| Front Page Top

#27 We're not journalists. No one checks our facts for us in error.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-01-16 16:50|| 2006-01-16 16:50|| Front Page Top

#28 IIRC Kiki died after a horrific beating, torture, and being buried alive. We shut down the border politically and by EXTENSIVE inspections (I waited 15 hours in line at Mexicali and pushed our out-of-gas truck across the border, coming home from San Felipe). The killers IIRC where offered up by the Mexican gov't

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-01-16 17:40|| 2006-01-16 17:40|| Front Page Top

#29 I saw the movie and I remember the photo in the paper when they shut down the border.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-01-16 17:49|| 2006-01-16 17:49|| Front Page Top

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