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Report: Zark killed by explosions in Mosul
Today's Headlines
Headline Comments [Views]
Page 1: WoT Operations
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Page 4: Opinion
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Britain
UK to Send Home Failed Iraqi Asylum Seekers
Britain said yesterday it would resume the forced repatriation of failed Iraqi asylum seekers, but declined to give details about numbers or a timetable.
That would seem to make sense. If the answer's no, y'gotta go. The wimpiness about details seems to be standard issue for pols anywhere. Talk tough now, but if you do something it'll be in the sweet by and by.
“We did announce our intention to commence the enforced returns program to Iraq in February 2004. We’re working towards putting that in place,” a Home Office Interior Ministry spokesman told AFP.
Ummm... That was a year and a half ago?
On Thursday, Channel 4 television, citing Home Office documents, said the government planned to resume such repatriations this weekend and that about 15 Iraqis would be taken to the northern Iraq town of Arbil. There are about 7,000 Iraqi asylum seekers in Britain. Until now, they have only been sent home on a voluntary basis.
That makes sense. Not a lot of sense, but sense. In a politician kind of way.
Posted by: Fred || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I'll take "Great Big Ol' Clue Bat Thingy" for a thousand pounds, Alex.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 1:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Hey it's the UK Home Office they need never fear being repatreated. Hell will freeze over first.

I love the picture.
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 2:16 Comments || Top||

#3  LOL! Rantburg deserves many an award - but clearly the graphics deserve a Ranttzer.

Gotta admit, it it wasn't for Fred's insight, I'd have fallen hook line and sinker for this one.
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 6:26 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Steyn:Senate adopts 'exit strategy' from reality
A busy time in the U.S. Senate, the "world's greatest deliberative body." Judging from the 2006 conference report, the Senate subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human Services and Education -- Chairman Arlen Specter (R), ranking member Tom Harkin (D) -- has been deliberating especially hard:



"Sec. 221. (a) The Headquarters and Emergency Operations Center Building (Building 21) at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is hereby renamed as the Arlen Specter Headquarters and Emergency Operations Center.

(b) The Global Communications Center Building (Building 19) at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is hereby renamed as the Thomas R. Harkin Global Communications Center."

Good to see that even in the viciously partisan atmosphere of today's politics, Republicans and Democrats can still work together to carry out the people's business. In the same spirit, I wonder whether the Senate chamber itself should not be renamed the Abu Musab al-Zarqawi United States Senate. With increasingly rare exceptions, just about everything that emerges from the chamber tends to support the Zarqawi view of Iraq -- that this is a psychological war in which the Great Satan is an effete wimp who can be worn down and chased back to his La-Z-Boy recliner in Florida.

Last week, the Republican majority, to their disgrace and with 13 honorable exceptions, passed an amendment calling on the administration to lay out its "plan" for "ending" the war and withdrawing U.S. troops. They effectively signed on to the Democrat framing of the debate: that the only thing that matters is the so-called exit strategy. The only difference between Bill Frist's mushy Republicans and Harry Reid's shameless Democrats is that the latter want to put a firm date on withdrawal, so that Zarqawi's insurgents can schedule an especially big car bomb to coincide with the formal handover of the Great Satan's cojones.

"Exit strategy" is a defeatist's term. The only exit strategy that matters was summed up by George M. Cohan in the song the Doughboys sang as they marched off to the Great War nine decades ago:

"And we won't come back

Till it's over

Over there!"

And that's the timetable, too. If you want it fleshed out a bit, how about this? "The key issue is no longer WMD or even the role of the U.N. The central issue is America's credibility and will to prevail.'' That's Goh Chok Tong speaking in Washington last year. Unfortunately, he's not a U.S. senator, but the prime minister of Singapore, and thus ineligible to run, on the grounds that he's not a citizen of Blowhardistan. What does the Senate's revolting amendment tell America's enemies (Zarqawi) and "friends" (Chirac) about her will to prevail?

Any great power -- never mind the preeminent power of the age -- should be engaged with the world. That means, among other things, that it has a presence in those parts of the globe that are critical to its interest. For two years, the Democrats have assiduously peddled the line that Bush "lied" about Iraq. A slightly less contemptible class of critic has sneered that the administration never had any plans for postwar Iraq, hadn't a clue what it was getting into, couldn't tell the difference between a Sunni and a Shia and a Kurd if they were painted different colors and had neon signs flashing off the top of their heads. If there's anything to this feeble second-guessing, it's that the U.S. government simply didn't know enough about Iraq -- and, in a crude sense, they're right. U.S. taxpayers would be justified, for example, in feeling they're not getting their $44 billion worth from the intelligence community.

But the only way to know the country is to be there on the ground, in some form or other. I'm all for "Iraqification" -- though those Democrats urgently demanding everything be done by the locals will be the first to shriek in horror once the Iraqis start serious score-settling with the foreign insurgents. But, even with full-scale Iraqification, America would be grossly irresponsible if not clinically insane not to maintain some sort of small residual military presence somewhere in the western desert.

Sorry, but that's part of the deal of being the world's hyperpower. To pretend otherwise is an exit strategy from reality. If you're worried about the ''cost,'' stop garrisoning your wealthiest allies -- Germany, Japan et al. -- and thereby absolving them from stepping up to the traditional responsibilities of nationhood.

One expects nothing from the Democrats. Their leaders are men like Jay Rockefeller, Democrat of West Virginia, who in 2002 voted for the war and denounced Saddam Hussein as an "imminent threat" and claimed that Iraq could have nuclear weapons by 2007 if not earlier. Now he says it's Bush who "lied" his way into war with a lot of scary mumbo-jumbo about WMD.

What does Rockefeller believe, really? I know what Bush believes: He thought Saddam should go in 2002 and today he's glad he's gone, as am I. I know what, say, Michael Moore believes: He wanted to leave Saddam in power in 2002, and today he thinks the "insurgents" are the Iraqi version of America's Minutemen. But what do Rockefeller and Reid and Kerry believe deep down? That voting for the war seemed the politically expedient thing to do in 2002 but that they've since done the math and figured that pandering to the moveon.org crowd is where the big bucks are? If Bush is the new Hitler, these small hollow men are the equivalent of those grubby little Nazis whose whining defense was, "I was only obeying orders. I didn't really mean all that strutting tough-guy stuff." And, before they huff, "How dare you question my patriotism?", well, yes, I am questioning your patriotism -- because you're failing to meet the challenge of the times. Thanks to you, Iraq is a quagmire -- not in the Sunni Triangle, where U.S. armed forces are confident and effective, but on the home front, where soft-spined national legislators have turned the war into one almighty Linguini Triangle.






It's easy to laugh at the empty shell of a Jay Rockefeller, bragging about how he schmoozed Bashar Assad, dictator of a terrorist state, about Bush's war intentions. But look at the news from France and ask yourself what that's really about? At heart, it's the failure of Europe's political class to grasp the profound and rapid changes already under way. This Senate is making the same fatal error. I'd advocate throwing the bums out if there were any alternative bums to throw in. But maybe the Thomas R. Harkin Centers for Disease Control could persuade them to be the first deliberative body to donate itself to medical science
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 16:18 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  formatting WTF?
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 16:24 Comments || Top||

#2  "Blowhardistan"

Bam! LOL!
Posted by: .Emeril || 11/20/2005 16:35 Comments || Top||

#3  awfully wide ain't it
Posted by: Red Dog || 11/20/2005 17:16 Comments || Top||

#4  Formatting back to reg wide.

Mark Steyn #1

Chairman Arlen Specter:
Because the dems are way worser such treasonous bastards it sticks in my craw that we have to accept asshats like this by default.
Posted by: Red Dog || 11/20/2005 18:14 Comments || Top||

#5  I wouldn't mind if some of the Senators found an exit strategy from the Senate; namely, Harkin, Kennedy, Biden, Dingy Harry Reid, Hilderbeast, and a few others.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 18:54 Comments || Top||

#6  I hear you, Red Dog. I voted for McCain last year. I wasn't happy about it, but...
Posted by: Jackal || 11/20/2005 20:13 Comments || Top||


Gitmo Hunger Striker in ‘Imminent Danger’ of Death: Lawyer
The lawyer for a detainee at the US military prison in Guantanamo, Cuba said Friday that his hunger-striking client was in “imminent danger” of death or serious organ damage despite being force-fed. Washington lawyer Thomas Wilner said Kuwaiti detainee Fawzi Al-Odah has been losing weight even though his US military captors have been force-feeding him through a nose tube since early September, several weeks after Odah, 27, launched his hunger strike on Aug. 8. “The time we went down (to Guantanamo) in October, he had gone to 112 pounds (51 kilograms), and now in November he was down to 98 pounds (44.5 kilograms),” said Wilner, who returned from the prison on Nov. 7. “Whether they are not doing it adequately or competently, I don’t know, but the continued weight loss shows that something is wrong,” Wilner said.

Wilner said he obtained the weight information during his last visit, during which Odah passed the lawyer his own medical files. Wilner said he did not know how the detainee had obtained the files, which Wilner showed to doctors to assess Odah’s condition.
Posted by: Fred || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  There doesn't seem to be a downside to this. This guy gets his virgins; we get a dead terrorist. No innocents die.

Everyone wins.
Posted by: badanov || 11/20/2005 0:17 Comments || Top||

#2  purging or bolemic?
Posted by: Jan || 11/20/2005 0:35 Comments || Top||

#3  please let him choke on a pork rind
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 0:39 Comments || Top||

#4  Boo-fricking-hoo! Cry me a river and fill it with herring.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 0:48 Comments || Top||

#5  Ado and goodnight
Posted by: Captain America || 11/20/2005 0:59 Comments || Top||

#6  So? Why should I give a damn if he dies? Where do these lawyer types get off.
Posted by: 3dc || 11/20/2005 2:50 Comments || Top||

#7  Protein enemas.
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 3:07 Comments || Top||

#8  Yawn...wake me up when its over.
Posted by: CaziFarkus || 11/20/2005 6:22 Comments || Top||

#9  Take some 9-11 victim's relative and give him or her a gun and the chance to finish this slimy Muzzy bastard off. That's about all he's good for.
Posted by: mac || 11/20/2005 6:28 Comments || Top||

#10  This meter is clearly faulty. It should have pinned.
Posted by: Curt Simon || 11/20/2005 9:45 Comments || Top||

#11  Oooooooooh... The Incredible Shrinking Jidhadi!
3 months and he's lost...14 POUNDS! That's not a hunger strike, that's Weight Watchers.
Hurry up and die, asshole.

Posted by: tu3031 || 11/20/2005 11:13 Comments || Top||

#12  Shoot the lawyer and let the idiot die - a twofer. The world will be a better place.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 11/20/2005 16:01 Comments || Top||

#13  Lawyer is worried about losing a paying client.
Posted by: RWV || 11/20/2005 16:47 Comments || Top||

#14  I wish it all the best with it's Al-Quaeda diet.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles || 11/20/2005 17:30 Comments || Top||

#15  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out Fawzi Al-Odah. Yeh, I don't see the downside. Better yet, his attorney would also go on a hunger strike in protest.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 17:58 Comments || Top||

#16  The lawyer for a detainee at the US military prison in Guantanamo, Cuba said Friday that his hunger-striking client was in “imminent danger” of death or serious organ damage despite being force-fed.

Time to cue up the very, very little violin.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 11/20/2005 21:36 Comments || Top||

#17  The EVIL US military is clearly violating the detainees rights by denying him the 'euphoria' of starvation. Where's the left / ACLU to fight for his 'right to starve to death'?
Posted by: DMFD || 11/20/2005 23:53 Comments || Top||


Iraq
White House: "Highly Unlikely" that Zarq was killed
Much background deleted

The U.S. military is conducting tests to determine whether terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was among those killed in a weekend raid in northern Iraq, but a White House official called that prospect "highly unlikely." The raid took place Saturday in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, a U.S. counterterrorism official said Sunday. The official said U.S. commanders do not know whether al-Zarqawi -- whom U.S. authorities call al Qaeda's top man in Iraq -- was in the house, which was targeted because suspected al Qaeda members were thought to be inside.

Tell the Fat Lady she can go home.
In Beijing, China, a stop on President Bush's trip to Asia, National Security Council spokesman Frederick Jones discounted the prospect of al-Zarqawi's death. "The report is highly unlikely and not credible," he said.
Posted by: Jackal || 11/20/2005 21:15 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  the coward Zarqawi is unlikely to expose himself along with the "fighters" he sends out to die. He will be found, cowering under a child' s bed, someday, hoping to use the child as a shield. PUSSY is the best I can call this spitwad
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 21:28 Comments || Top||

#2  The story comes from CNN (Communist News Network) and can be discounted. My question is this: If it is so highly unlikely that we got Zarquawi, why bother to secure the boomers building and why perform DNA tests to determine if it was him?
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 21:41 Comments || Top||

#3  sssshhhhh
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 21:43 Comments || Top||

#4  Maybe they know for a fact that Zarq is in Iran calling the shots?
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 21:54 Comments || Top||

#5  From the WP:

There is a "30 percent" chance that one of the bodies is Zarqawi's, he said. But he warned: "We've had dry holes before."

Sounds to me like he was the target.
Posted by: BillH || 11/20/2005 22:15 Comments || Top||

#6  In Iran!!!??? Calling the shots!! MFer!! Man if that is the truth...then what is stopping the B2's?
Posted by: Long Hair Republican || 11/20/2005 22:39 Comments || Top||

#7  Facts on the ground, US and world politics, last but not least reality.
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 22:42 Comments || Top||

#8  the White House is gonna play this VERY cagey! Don't want false hopes...and DO want Zark's buddies in the dark for a bit!

My confidence is rising!! :)
Posted by: Justrand || 11/20/2005 22:53 Comments || Top||

#9  Justrand hit upon it; casting doubt on it leaves less room for AQ popping up with a "hey, it's not true!" that would embarass the US government had it been more optimistic and announcing it as a possibility.
Posted by: Edward Yee || 11/20/2005 23:00 Comments || Top||

#10  White House: "Highly Unlikely" that Zarq was killed

All right. All right. I settle for just "maimed." Perferrably in a very painful and deeply personal way.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 23:21 Comments || Top||

#11  Lol - "deeply personal" - I'll remember that one - and steal it, lol.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 23:42 Comments || Top||

#12  Bush I am sure by now is pretty damm gun shy when it comes to the media. If he claimed it possible and it wasnt him they would have crusified him later with the lieing to get attention off his failed war blah blah blah..

This way he is covered either way. After how the media turned a war with multiple reasons for happening into just one WMD that was just one in many not the sole reason. I dont know about you but if I was Saddam and the media were screaming WMD inspectors looking everywere lookin the strongest nation in the world that already beat you down once talkin about a rematch to the death fist thing I would do would be take the WMD and all associated gather together take a crew of guys bury it in the deepest hole possible then when the guys show up to get paid bury them no witnesses have the sons do it to assure silence. Hell the only one who would know the location would be you and the guys in the hole. The egyptans Mummys did it and we still havent found all the treasure.
Posted by: C-Low || 11/20/2005 23:50 Comments || Top||


BREAKING: Report: al-Zarqawi killed by explosions in Mosul
At least one Arab television media outlet reported that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of the al-Qaida in Iraq, was killed in Iraq on Sunday afternoon when eight terrorists blew themselves up in the in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul.

The unconfirmed report claimed that the explosions occurred after coalition forces surrounded the house in which al-Zarqawi was hiding.
Posted by: Brett || 11/20/2005 12:31 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  OhpleaseOhPleaseOhpleaseOhplease!

Wrap him in bacon boys and point the head south.
Posted by: GoldenshellbackII || 11/20/2005 12:40 Comments || Top||

#2  Recognizable body parts? DNA? DNC membership card?
Posted by: Thomoper Ebbonter9699 || 11/20/2005 12:41 Comments || Top||

#3  Visit Zarqa in Jordan and begin gathering DNA to use in forensic analysis. This needs to be verified thoroughly. Fortunately, this cretin is such a media whore that he'll release a video interview should he have had the incredible good fortune to stay alive. Please let him be dead.

I wonder if, after the Amman bombings, Jordan didn't start pulling in some markers to get the drop on this maggot.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 12:48 Comments || Top||

#4  Out of all this Sadam's son's have been the bravest. They fought to the death.
Posted by: Jomotch Chinesh1564 || 11/20/2005 12:49 Comments || Top||

#5  Brave?!?!??

My ass.

They repeatedly targeted women, children and unarmed worshippers.

And they didnt fight to the death, they blew themselves up rather than fight. Pussies.
Posted by: Oldspook || 11/20/2005 12:55 Comments || Top||

#6  Don't worry, he probably has (had?) a lot of stuff in the can. I understand that the live show from Amman was a real blast.
Posted by: Curt Simon || 11/20/2005 12:58 Comments || Top||

#7  Ah come on. This is a man who sends others to go Boom[tm]. These leaders are way too important to be bothered by way they advocate others to do. Skeptical meter on high.
Posted by: Snump Ebbiting5547 || 11/20/2005 13:04 Comments || Top||

#8  Quite frankly he was/is a liability to AQ. In the sense that he may be replaced with someone a bit smarter, I hope it isn't him.
Posted by: Jake-the-Peg || 11/20/2005 13:06 Comments || Top||

#9  begin gathering DNA

Just a guess, but I suspect that has been done wrt his close relatives some time ago. Probably via the Jordanian security apparatus as he has been an avowed enemy of the government.
Posted by: lotp || 11/20/2005 13:09 Comments || Top||

#10  lotp:
"Aren't you supposed to only swab our cheek for DNA"

"Nahhhh - we take limbs"
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 13:12 Comments || Top||

#11  Thomoper Ebbonter9699, post #2: "Recognizable body parts? DNA? DNC membership card?"

Caused a full-on coffee-through-nose snort!! Bravo! (and Spot-On!)
Posted by: Justrand || 11/20/2005 13:13 Comments || Top||

#12  Don't worry, he probably has (had?) a lot of stuff in the can. I understand that the live show from Amman was a real blast.

Broadcasts without direct reference to current events or a recent newspaper edition in the foreground don't carry much weight. Ask Osama.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 13:17 Comments || Top||

#13  What Hollywood will play his role in the coming movie? Depp, I believe.
Posted by: Brett || 11/20/2005 13:18 Comments || Top||

#14  That would be Hollywood star.
Posted by: Brett || 11/20/2005 13:19 Comments || Top||

#15  Dear "coalition forces:"

Well done. The beer's on me!
Posted by: Mike || 11/20/2005 13:21 Comments || Top||

#16  Debka was talking about senior al queda blowing themselves up earlier... matches up... fingers crossed
Posted by: Damn_Proud_American || 11/20/2005 13:30 Comments || Top||

#17  Threaten the King of Jordan on Friday and you're dead by Sunday...

Posted by: john || 11/20/2005 13:36 Comments || Top||

#18  If the boomerette led them to Zark, his fellow mujahids will just use this a further proof that a woman's place is in the home, and Allan smote Zark because he let a woman get involved.
Posted by: Penguin || 11/20/2005 13:37 Comments || Top||

#19  And here the Dems were on the talking heads shows this morning trying to explain why we need a "Political solution to the war in Iraq". I believe that's weenie-speak for "cut and run".
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 11/20/2005 13:38 Comments || Top||

#20  where is msm reports of this?
Posted by: Ding Dangalang || 11/20/2005 13:41 Comments || Top||

#21  Deacon, your translation is exactly right.

It's simple: the Dems never bought into the war, but they were 'forced' to do by having to vote on it a month before the 2002 election (Karl Rove is a genius). They've been trying to back out ever since.
Posted by: Steve White || 11/20/2005 13:41 Comments || Top||

#22  We can only hope the rumors of his demise are not greatly exaggerated. Hope the S.O.B is room temperature.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 13:47 Comments || Top||

#23  Threaten the King of Jordan on Friday and you're dead by Sunday...

Which begs the question (if this is true); Why didn't King Abdullah II cough up this prize morsel any earlier? I sincerely doubt the failed boomerette had direct knowledge of Zarq's whereabouts. That would stand in direct violation of all standard terrorist cell structures. For Zarq (pieces be upon him) to be fingered so promptly, there most likely had to be some pre-existing knowledge. Enquiring minds want to know!
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 13:52 Comments || Top||

#24  where is msm reports of this?
Posted by: Jomotch Chinesh1564 || 11/20/2005 13:53 Comments || Top||

#25  Recognizable body parts? DNA? DNC membership card?

French passport? UN ID card?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 11/20/2005 13:54 Comments || Top||

#26  where is msm reports of this?
Probally quad drouple checking thier sources.
Posted by: Jomotch Chinesh1564 || 11/20/2005 13:54 Comments || Top||

#27  Gunmen launch deadly ambush of Marine convoy
This is what CNN is headlining.
Posted by: plainslow || 11/20/2005 13:56 Comments || Top||

#28  Oh I hope its true. Where's that singing fat viking lady! This is great, lets see now who pick up the lead.
Posted by: 49 pan || 11/20/2005 13:56 Comments || Top||

#29  Fred, is it too early for a screamer on this? Bloody hell, I sure hope this is true. Our troops deserve a little holiday cheer.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 13:59 Comments || Top||

#30  No fat ladies can sing until the anouncement comes from US sources, I'd say. Oh, on the record US sources.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 11/20/2005 14:00 Comments || Top||

#31  The MSM will only report this pro-W news when it is triple-confirmed by AP/al Reuters via the US Military.

If true, I bet this raises W's polling by 10 points.
Posted by: Brett || 11/20/2005 14:13 Comments || Top||

#32  Zarqawi is a satan worshipper in a blood cult disguised as a mooslim. He is sentenced to die and may a million shards of fine glass penetrate his child molesting body one piece at a time. If he was given justice by his co-molesters to escape justice here on earth, then God's infinite justice will prevail. Unlike the pervert apostate Zarqawi, I will not pretend to know what God's plan will be for him. Zarqawi repeatedly elevated himself to the level of God and will now face the terrible truth... he is not God. If this event is used to provoke a response out of Zarqawi to deny his death as a coward that he is, then so be it. It will save time and money on doing DNA tests trying to verify if the suckling pig was finally well roasted. So how about it Zarqawi? Is you dead pig meat or are you live pig meat? If you alive pig-boy, then be it known that you are soon dead.
Posted by: Fun Dung Poo || 11/20/2005 14:15 Comments || Top||

#33  From this article:

"The family of al-Zarqawi, whose real name is Ahmed Fadheel Nazzal al-Khalayleh, reiterated their strong allegiance to Jordan's King Abdullah II in half-page advertisements in the kingdom's three main newspapers. "

Maybe dear old mom and pop Zark gave him up.
Posted by: Penguin || 11/20/2005 14:27 Comments || Top||

#34  If the boomerette led them to Zark, his fellow mujahids will just use this a further proof that a woman's place is in the home, and Allan smote Zark because he let a woman get involved.

That's okay - it cuts down their pool of potential boomers ....
Posted by: lotp || 11/20/2005 14:58 Comments || Top||

#35  so whats the latest?? ded or not, i see nothing on t.v news channels yet :(
Posted by: Shep UK || 11/20/2005 15:01 Comments || Top||

#36  Zen - Re your #23, I've been less than complimentary of Kingy Thingy, among a whole host of such tepid "friends", and got thoroughly lectured about how useful he is, a staunch ally, he has to be wary of his Paleo pop, etc, ad infinitum ad nauseum. Even got a Moderate Muzzy Watch when he gave some spiffy MSM quotes to show how good a guy he is. *gag*

Truth is, we have damned few "allies" in the WoT. Most of the ones who might be useful aren't very, Pervy, Abdullah (Jordan), Abdullah (SA), Yippie (*spit*), Mubarek, et al. The realpolitik types tell me we have to play along with 'em cuz they're in tenuous positions, are highly strategic, etc. But truthfully, they only help us when it's in their direct interests to do so, same as it would be if we weren't "allies" which translates to us dumping aid on them like every day's fucking Christmas. So the realpolitik strikes me as pure gas of the State Dept Brain Fart variety. With precisely that standard of return on investment.

Zarqi may be the sharpest knife in the drawer, literally, but he's among the dullest dimwits on the planet. Thank Gawd. Declaring war on Jordan and blowing up weddings full of Jordanians and Paleos should prove the point. NOW the Jordanians are interested and upset - cuz they've felt what their Iraqi neighbors have been going through over well over a year. The ClueBat paid them a personal visit. So NOW they're getting their back up. Pfeh. Bullshit. If he hadn't blown them up and threatened His Harleyness, we would receive the usual: dribbles of help for MASSIVE aid and a Jordanian population willing to fund, assist in logistics, the whole panoply of shit we have to deal with in the Sunni Triangle.

I believe the time has come to recall all of our "arrangements" and review them for whether they actually serve US and whether we get a decent ROI. I would drop every asshat deal like a rock. I would then consolidate that aid and make it clear that the pot is much bigger, now, for intel that pays off. Those who play ball get a payment. No takedowns of the people and orgs we want taken down, then no moola or arms or anything else. Think of it as I do about marriage, heh. I can pay alot, day in day out, for a diminishing return, or I can pay whatever I can negotiate when I actually feel like getting my ashes hauled - and I mean by a pro who can haul ashes with the best, lol.

I'll get strafed for this, but my personal truism is:
"Baby I don't wanna own it, I just wanna borrow it for awhile."

Same for these dipshit moronic accommodation deal with those who can, but don't, help. Pony up the goods and we'll pay. Otherwise, nada.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 15:07 Comments || Top||

#37  any sensible suggestions anyone to how long it may take to do a DNA analysis??? do they have little gadgets to do DNA tests within hours or does it have to go to some lame Lab for testing??
Posted by: Shep UK || 11/20/2005 15:16 Comments || Top||

#38  I don't think there is anything in this story. I hope I am wrong but where is the msm. Sky news would be all over this by now
Posted by: Ding Dangalang || 11/20/2005 15:17 Comments || Top||

#39  lol PD - remember the saying:

"If it flies, floats or f*&ks, it's cheaper to rent"
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 15:19 Comments || Top||

#40  MSM will run this sotry afte they see it on al-Jizz
Posted by: Crineger Omomoque9485 || 11/20/2005 15:37 Comments || Top||

#41  So who gets the $25,000,000.00? Our guys?
Posted by: Spavitch Flavins2154 || 11/20/2005 15:45 Comments || Top||

#42  Works for me, SF - they sure as hell earn what we used to call "spot bonuses" - every day. The C-SPAN coverage of the bitch-slap vote brought home to me just how disingenuous the anti-America forces are - and how precious the military and their sense of patriotism truly is. The other side can't even define it, and our people live it. So, hell yessssss, let's stop giving aid and our hard-earned tax dollars to assholes (Dhimmi salaries included, lol) and give it to our military families. Works for me and makes MUCH more sense, since they deserve it.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 15:51 Comments || Top||

#43  More info from DEBKA:

DEBKAfile Exclusive: US forces and forensic experts are examining the bodies of eight high-ranking al Qaeda leaders in Mosul to find out if their chief Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is among them.

November 20, 2005, 8:28 PM (GMT+02:00)

A sample of his DNA is in American possession for a match-up.

The bodies they are trying to identify are of 7 men and one woman, who blew themselves up Sunday, Nov. 20, after their hideout in northern Iraq was under siege by a large US force, backed by tanks and helicopters. The bodies are burned black and unrecognizable. Four Iraqi security officers were killed and 10 injured in the operation.

DEBKAfile’s military sources add that also Sunday, US and Iraqi forces raided al Qaeda sanctuaries in Baghdad and captured several suspects. They followed an intelligence tip which confirmed DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s disclosure (Issue 227 Oct. 28) of the arrival of Zarqawi and his top team to Baghdad on Oct. 15.
Posted by: Parabellum || 11/20/2005 15:54 Comments || Top||

#44  More from the AP:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. forces sealed off a house in the northern city of Mosul where eight suspected al-Qaida members died in a gunfight — some by their own hand to avoid capture. A U.S. official said Sunday that efforts were under way to determine if terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was among the dead...

In Washington, a U.S. official said the identities of the terror suspects killed was unknown. Asked if they could include al-Zarqawi, the official replied: "There are efforts under way to determine if he was killed."

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information.

American soldiers maintained control of the site, imposing extraordinary security measures, a day after a fierce gunbattle that broke out when Iraqi police and U.S. soldiers surrounded a house after reports that al-Qaida in Iraq members were inside.

Three insurgents detonated explosives and killed themselves to avoid capture, Iraqi officials said. Eleven Americans were wounded, the U.S. military said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
Posted by: Parabellum || 11/20/2005 16:12 Comments || Top||

#45  Gotta a feeling about this. Scuse me while I go warm up the Ululator.
Posted by: phil_b || 11/20/2005 16:19 Comments || Top||

#46  .com, I could not agree with you more. Anyone who thinks that bedding down with these Arab tyrants is "realpolitik" is nucking futs. Saudi Arabia is the penultimate example of what we can expect from any of these Islamist cesspits. Tons of technology and assistance repaid with the 19 on 9-11. Billions in armaments buys us virulent anti-American Wahabbist textbooks and Pakistani madrasahs full of Talebani.

No amount of backing, military aid or intelligence sharing will change the fact that they all approach reality with a rigid mindset of Arab versus non-Arab. We have, ourselves, become their "useful idiot." They paint us as "The Great Satan" in order to misdirect their peoples' rage from abusive governments like nowhere on earth.

It is most definitely time for quid pro f&%king quo. Only substantial material progress should be greeted with any sort of rewards. Lip service should be met with slammed doors and the choking off of all monetary support. Supposedly more level heads hereabouts will protest that this will only polarize these tinpot dictatorships against us all the more.

GUESS WHAT? Regardless of what they say, do, put in print or play on air, NONE OF THEM ARE OUR FRIENDS. Every single one of these @ssholes has stabbed us in the back at the earliest opportunity while they cheerfully rake in the bounty of our largess.

.com, I am more than glad to advocate what we both know to be true; Namely, that decapping these sh!tpots, one by one, will deliver better results than anything else we can do. Old school realpolitik once dictated that it is "Better the devil we know than one we don't."

THAT CRAP IS OVER WITH FOREVER. Weapons of Mass Destruction have put and end to that out-moded way of thought, permanently! There is no other alternate faction available to be sucked into the power vacuum left behind after whacking Iran's mullahs that could even approach the incredible evil those sanctimonious, genocidal psychotics represent. Even a military junta would be more sensible than the IRG and their twisted clerics.

And so it is with all these other f&%kwit pissholes. As proliferation becomes the norm we are confronted with cutting deals with absolute madmen. North Korea should have been enough to make this crystal clear.

If Islamists refuse to denouce violent jihad, then the gloves MUST come off. Waiting and hoping for things to get better only plays into their hands. We need to make it unbearably hot for any of these perfidious scumbags who want to dick us around.

What has been done to stop the slaughter in Darfur? Zilch. Has there been a single PEEP out of the Arab-ruled countries? Hell no! Yet, lobbing a few cruise missiles into Khartoum's statehouse during a full session would make it clear that genocide has a price tag.

We need to start affixing some very expensive price tags to destabilizing world peace. Trying to sandbag America with the blame for complicating ongoing negotiations with these back-stabbing traitors is merely playing into their hands by giving them the remotest credibility. The United States has done more towards the cause of world peace than all other nations combined. It's time to stop spilling our>/em> blood and, instead, use our fabulous technology to obtain results in a swift and unmistakeable fashion.

Only when these sh!theads find that their life of luxury is about to go up in smoke will they do diddly-squat about changing their ways. France and Spain has shown us what negotiating gets you. Enough of the diplomatic diddling. These Arab tyrannies cannot possibly hate us any more than they already do. We have nothing to lose. Let's make it clear that they have everything to lose.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 16:23 Comments || Top||

#47  Zenster.spot on.
Posted by: Ding Dangalang || 11/20/2005 16:29 Comments || Top||

#48  I don't know that I'd call bedding down with them a good idea, but they are what's there and I'd think carefully before I did anything that destabilized them all at once. In the review .com recommends, I'd want a priority list of who goes first and who's mostlikely to respond the the example of his neighbor.

It is interesting that we have this discussion of whether or not we've nailed Zarq the same weekend the Zark family takes out ads disowning him. Perhaps Abdullah got the family to give us the secret cell phone number.

I'm also not sure we're ahead of the game to pull the rug out from under Mubarrak and get the Muslim Brotherhood.
Posted by: Flock Wheasing2276 || 11/20/2005 16:38 Comments || Top||

#49  Sheesh. Cleanup on aisle 48.

Harmony, Zen, ya gotta love it, lol.

As we agreed not long ago, no more of this expensive nation-building. Costs too much in great people and treasure. Enough of the beneficiaries, and many of our own, don't appreciate the effort, so that's it. Afghanistan and Iraq. From here on out we decide who are the threats, figure out how to depose them and remove the threat, and they get to try putting it back together. If they fuck up and build another asshat regime, we whack that one, too. Rinse. Repeat. For spot stains, we employ the hunter / killer teams, lots of them. Starting somewhere much close than the M.E., lol.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 16:41 Comments || Top||

#50  J Post is reporting dirt nap for Zarq.

The Elaph Arab media website reported on Sunday that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of the al-Qaida in Iraq terror group, may have been killed in Iraq on Sunday afternoon when eight terrorists blew themselves up in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul.

The unconfirmed report claimed that the explosions occurred while coalition forces surrounded the house in which al-Zarqawi was hiding. American and Iraqi forces are looking into the report.
Posted by: Elmetch Hupainter6856 || 11/20/2005 16:42 Comments || Top||

#51  #48 bgrebel9---your long string of please^N power is screwing up the entire screen on page 1. Shorten it up and put it in several columns or use spaces between the pleases. Thank you for your cooperation.
Posted by: Al Aska Paul || 11/20/2005 16:50 Comments || Top||

#52  I'd think carefully before I did anything that destabilized them all at once.

Who's saying we should blanket bomb the entire neighborhood? Door to door sales calls will do just fine. I'd expect a little of keeping up with the Jonses once a few of the Smiths vanish not-so-silently in the night.

Yup, .com, the era of nation building is over with. If a country lets itself get overrun with vermin, we'll come in and spray for cockroaches, but they get to wipe down their own kitchen afterwards.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 16:50 Comments || Top||

#53  One other little point I'd like to add: We need to undo something Geo41 did in error, and that's restart the neutron weapon production lines. We may need to employ those team thingys I mentioned to make sure there isn't a problem doing this - and to make certain that the bunker buster program recently sabotaged is reborn. Teamwork is so very useful, don't you think? Lol.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 16:57 Comments || Top||

#54  I am sure glad we did not pull out of Iraq yesterday or we would of never got him.

Posted by: airandee || 11/20/2005 16:59 Comments || Top||

#55  "Gunmen launch deadly ambush of Marine convoy"

Yeah, 24 dead.

15 Innocent Civilians caught in the explosion and crossfire

8 Bad Guys

1 Marine

Think that headline is "loaded". Asshole Media.
Posted by: danking70 || 11/20/2005 17:01 Comments || Top||

#56  " Zenster.spot on."

I second that emotion.
Posted by: doc || 11/20/2005 17:11 Comments || Top||

#57  Bravo to .com. Iv'e said before, the Army should be for killing people and breaking things. No more nation building.

This will be misunderstood (itentionally by the moonbats), but here goes.

It is a mistake to teach our enemies that our army is anything other than lethal. They should fear an encounter with ou military.
Posted by: SR-71 || 11/20/2005 17:20 Comments || Top||

#58  Perhaps America needs to develop a Exterior "Police" force for Nation Building?
Posted by: Bright Pebbles || 11/20/2005 17:23 Comments || Top||

#59  If he hadn't blown them up and threatened His Harleyness, we would receive the usual: dribbles of help for MASSIVE aid

Jordan has been a major logistics transit pipe for the US in Iraq. I don't consider that 'dribbles'.
Posted by: lotp || 11/20/2005 17:31 Comments || Top||

#60  Threaten the King of Jordan on Friday and you're dead by Sunday lol! If it was Sparky Zarky, I'm guessing there's lots of truth to that one.

Been a pretty tough week for the Democrats...first the 403-3. Now their beloved hero Zarky...

mmmmm...I like crow pie. (mumble, mumble.. pretty convenient that it was a giant blast.. mumble, mumble).
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 17:37 Comments || Top||

#61  It seems that King Abdullah of Jordan is better than his dad, Hussain. Remember that Dear Old Dad was on Sammy's side during GW1, as he got all the oil Jordan needed from Sammy. The Arafish was on Sammy's side, too. Wonder how he is doing on the Inferno 3000 chicken rotisseree?
Posted by: Al Aska Paul || 11/20/2005 17:43 Comments || Top||

#62  I know that the jury's still out on this, lotp, but if Abdullah II was suddenly able to toss Zarq in our lap, how long ago could he have done this? Jordan definitely has been of value, if only as a model for a pluralistic Middle East country. Still, I find it more than a little conspicuous that, within minutes of directly threatening Kingy-Boy, suddenly we're suddenly mopping up what's left of one of al Qaeda's most elusive henchmen. I know that juxtaposition doth not imply sequence, but this one sure seems to be quacking like a duck.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 17:45 Comments || Top||

#63  This would be a hard week for the Dems and the MSM--first the nay vote on withdrawal from Iraq and then the icing of Zark.

If true, Thanksgiving and Christmas come early this year.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 17:51 Comments || Top||

#64  .com, one more thing... we need to maintain the actionable intelligence networks that AIM and GUIDE the hunter-killer teams.
Posted by: Edward Yee || 11/20/2005 18:00 Comments || Top||

#65  "major logistics transit pipe in Iraq."

Lol, I can read a map. And it means Israel is certainly helping to that same degree - and I have no qualms about dealing with them as a fellow democracy - and our only true WoT ally, though we bicker with them over the methods and means.

We disagree on this topic in general. You can say anything and characterize it any way you like. So what? You believe in the realpolitik game and I don't. Big deal.

EY - And do you actually think we get major actionable intel from Jordan? You can't prove it, and I won't ask you to, but your assumption begs the question: who really helps us and why. I say we can get a much better ROI by cutting loose the sometimes "allies" and pay for play. If the intel pans out, and we bag the desired baddies, then we pay. Got nothing to do with Govts, which yield a shitty return. As Zen says above, and I implied up in #36, why couldn't we have gotten this sort of intel, assuming the story is true, prior to the threats and actions against Jordan? Something's very rotten here. And it's been rotten for decades. It's a lousy game in which we pay heavy dues - and get little in return, and only when it would be in their interest, anyway. If you're getting paid regardless of the level of performance, there's damned little to motivation a better performance. It's called playing to the universal trait: greed.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 18:09 Comments || Top||

#66  Wonder how he is doing on the Inferno 3000 chicken rotisseree?

Interesting question, Al Aska Paul. I particularly like the part below:

Distinctive dual-live flame offers tremendous visual theatre from near and far, creating an alluring atmosphere for your customers.

What I'd give to see Arafat actually bathed in "dual-live flame" as he slowly renders. Boy howdy, talk about "tremendous visual theater"!
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 18:10 Comments || Top||

#67  I am going to have to agree with PD like many have.

I can only hope the the inteligence services of Jordan inteligence arm, who are second to none on the region, put extra effort into getting a location on Zark boy and passed it on. Jordan shares it's inteligence with Israel and the US. They are reliable. It is a good partner in the region in most other instances. No nation is going to put the well being of another nation over its' own. Thats reality.

I hope Zark bought it but will wait for DNA confirmation. Blowing themselves up may have been ment to deprive us of an information bonanza in any case. One of his AQ provided minders may have boomed him without his even knowing it even.
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 18:10 Comments || Top||

#68  What would be the coolest thing is to find out the tape that threatened Abdullah was a CIA plant. Too cool!
Posted by: badanov || 11/20/2005 18:10 Comments || Top||

#69  Geez, sorry for the mish-mashed English. Got in a hurry.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 18:10 Comments || Top||

#70  Zenster,

Your are absolutely right!! Jordanians (Palestinians) approved of Zarqawi killing Iraqis and members of the Allied Forces until they became targets of the degerate. Now, all of the sudden, they knew were the SOB was hiding. It remains me of the Saudis...when the vermin were targeting Westerners, they were more than glad to lend them a hand but when they became targets themselves, they were outraged and all of the sudden they were denouncing the terrorists.
Posted by: Omesing Thains5521 || 11/20/2005 18:11 Comments || Top||

#71  I would guess that Zaraqawi got sloppy with a hurried "Sorry, We were supposed to bomb the Bar Mitzvah" taped message.

Posted by: danking70 || 11/20/2005 18:14 Comments || Top||

#72  Poor, poor democrats. They stepped all in it again. Call for immediate withdrawal on Thurday and we kill Zarq on Sunday.

They swift-boated themselves roflmao.
Posted by: Evil Elvis || 11/20/2005 18:30 Comments || Top||

#73  One of his AQ provided minders may have boomed him without his even knowing it even.

I call this the "Jim Jones Effect" after the speculation that Jonesy-Baby might have been "helped along" when he suddenly displayed some unforeseen reluctance to participate with the rest of his Kool-Aid imbibing ovine bipeds.

One can only hope that Zarq was getting ready to unfurl a white flag when he got a brief glimpse of some underling pulling a thumbswitch out of his robes.

"Hey! That's only for the plebs you mor ..... [kablammo]"

I agree, .com. The sort of return on investment that we're getting is like trying to build a car from scratch by purchasing one part at a time from the local auto shop.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 18:31 Comments || Top||

#74  .com, who you callin' realipolitikeee??? LOL

Never said I like the young King, although he is worlds better than his father. And ... it's not at all clear JORDAN turned in Zarki boy either.

But the fact is that Jordan (an Arab country) HAS been quite helpful on the logistics side of the war. It was pretty widely rumored that SOCOM poured over the border into northern Iraq from Jordanian territory in 2003 and have been finding that border rather useful ever since.

That constitutes a risk on the part of the King and he deserves to have that acknowledged. Jordan isn't the magic kingdom, no matter how much you seem to like to lump them all together.

re: maps: Lots of room to land aircraft in Jordan here and there. Couple a' ports there too ... ones with big US military ships in 'em lately, to the great annoyance of al Q ...
Posted by: lotp || 11/20/2005 18:34 Comments || Top||

#75  Isn't the female homocide bomber who failed to detonate singing???
Posted by: bogeybob || 11/20/2005 19:01 Comments || Top||

#76  Heard Fox reporting that Zarquawi "might" have assumed room temperature a few minutes ago.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 19:07 Comments || Top||

#77  I stand by my posts, in toto. Not to replay it, but regards Turkey, you're not realpolotikeee? LOL, indeed.

Sheesh. I detect a moment of convenient relativism here, to make one argument, which is then discarded to make another.

a) No Jordan is not as "bad", or to put it positively, yields a better return than the bogus "Special Relationship" with the Saudis.

b) To then say I lump the two together negates it.

No country is a perfect ally, no question about it. Australia, under Howard, is as close as we will likely ever find. I'd vote for him in 2008, if he'd have us, lol.

The State Dept realpolitik game, used and abused by many before Bush, has saddled us with an amazing collection of accommodations which have, for decades, resulted in mountains of US cash going down a whole slew of rat-holes. Here are the USAID Greenbook and Yellowbook links. The entire lot are definitely overdue for reassessment - many are identifiable as Cold War relics, when keeping certain states out of the Soviet camp was deemed the pre-eminent consideration.

A wholesale review makes real solid sense, to me, anyway. I am disgusted by many of the accommodations we have in place. I believe our words and deeds should match.

That's my point and take.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 19:09 Comments || Top||

#78  And my point is that my friends in the Army would rather not have to fight EVERYWHERE at once.

Little bitty things like being able to bring in food, fuel, vehicles, ammo etc. across the border from Jordan ... it's the sort of thing that makes a soldier's little heart go pit-a-pat.

In fact, at odd moments I've been know to get a bit hot under the collar at people who preach a swaggering foreign policy in all parts of the world at once and then expect my buddies in green to go put their lives on the line to make it happen in unnecessarily complicated ways.
Posted by: lotp || 11/20/2005 19:14 Comments || Top||

#79  Isn't the female homocide bomber who failed to detonate singing???

good point. I'm having to reevaluate some of my previous comments. Good thing I like crow pie.
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 19:16 Comments || Top||

#80  BTW, on-topic, I hope the prick is dead and that it can be proven. That should generate some interesting fallout.

One thing occurred to me (and if someone else has already suggested it I missed it - so I apologize!):

What if, in his dispute with al Zawahiri and the "parent" alQ org, he stepped over the line and THEY set him up?

Wouldn't that be interesting?
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 19:18 Comments || Top||

#81  "Someone set up us the bomb" comes to mind.

Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 19:25 Comments || Top||

#82  lotp - What? Please clarify and expand. I'm very interested in knowing to whom you're referring - sans the faux cleverness of the manner in which it was written. Say it plain.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 19:26 Comments || Top||

#83  Wasn't Zawahiri the one asking for money? Wouldn't make sense to kill the goose.
Posted by: Spons Ulemp7990 || 11/20/2005 19:29 Comments || Top||

#84  SU - Unless you were refused and ignored.

lotp - Answer.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 19:34 Comments || Top||

#85  The entire lot are definitely overdue for reassessment - many are identifiable as Cold War relics, when keeping certain states out of the Soviet camp was deemed the pre-eminent consideration.

For how evil Soviet communism was (and Chinese communism still is), I am obliged to understand why those deeply flawed relationships were forged back then. I also agree than many, if not most of them, are long overdue for re-evaluation. One of my major points is that the proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction has completely changed the entire global equation. Pakistan is a sterling example of this.

Khan and the ISI's treachery has largely converted Pakistan into an enemy. Four years later, we have relatively little to show for the TENS OF BILLIONS of forgiven debt and military spending in Pakistan. By itself, the tension being created with India almost single-handedly outweighs any worth Pakistan has as an ally. Pile atop this the tremendous expenditure we are confronted with in unilaterally containing Iran's nuclear ambitions and Pakistan is little more than a dire foe.

I would cite Egypt as another case. The BILLIONS we pour into them is for what? We put paid to their recognition of Israel long ago and, since then, have been getting pretty much squat. We are now treated to the grim spectacle of Egypt husbanding Palestinian terrorism against Israel. Mubarak's suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood is with more of a mind to maintain his own tenuous grip on power than to assist with our national security aims. Egypt's covert nuclear weapons program well enough puts the lie to that notion.

This same story of opposing ends and thwarted democracy spews forth from so many of these supposed "allies" that America must seek to redefine what really serves its intrests best. Our dalliance with sundry Muslim tyrants demands a whole new system of accounting for the largesse we can no longer afford to strew in our path. Too often, that wealth is diverted towards ends that are wholly opposite our own. Khan forever proved that.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 19:45 Comments || Top||

#86  As I mentioned before, it is almost impossible to think that Zarq linked himself so closely with the failed Jordan boomette that she could subsequently finger him. Those odds appear many places behind the decimal point.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 19:53 Comments || Top||

#87  Excellent exposition, Zen. I agree with the entirety of your post, not that you need my agreement, lol. But well said, indeed.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 19:53 Comments || Top||

#88  I am disgusted by many of the accommodations we have in place. I believe our words and deeds should match.

And I heartily concur, .com. Our leaders, on both sides of the aisle, would do well to heed your advice.

SPECIAL NOTE: This thread epitomizes why I enjoy being here at Rantburg. Such lively and informed discussion of timely world events is one of the few antidotes to the creeping complacency that so threatens America today. I thank all of you, even my detractors.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 20:02 Comments || Top||

#89  Al Aksa Paul and Zen:

Speaking of flame shows, I was watching some History Channel footage, color no less, of Sherman flame-thrower tanks burning out Japanese diehards on Okinawa in 1945. Really impressive and horrific sight; that is, just what Jihadis need to see as they consider our surrender requests.
Flame-tanks haven't been used in many years, but it is my understanding that the Army still holds some in storage (M-60s iirc, not Shermans). It might be time to bring some of these out. It would also defy media standards of acceptability, which would be a bonus.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 11/20/2005 20:07 Comments || Top||

#90  Bringing the classic meaning back to fry em up, lol, AC. Indeed the MSM would simply explode.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 20:11 Comments || Top||

#91  If true (big "if"), the bats in Hell are flocking to welcome one of their own.
Posted by: Captain America || 11/20/2005 20:23 Comments || Top||

#92  lotp - #82 is waiting for a response. It is in reference to your #78. C'mon, you can do it.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 20:24 Comments || Top||

#93  Happy time is over.
You need to find those within these borders that want to attack US.

They are here already and they mean you harm.
Get er done.
Posted by: newc || 11/20/2005 20:27 Comments || Top||

#94  AC,.com, do either of you remember the Army's CCLAW project? It was a counter civilian tank-based laser designed to blind all unprotected people within sight. Public furor halted further development of the idea.

Back in that time, I arrived at the conclusion (as alluded to by SR-71) that America needed to develop battlefield weapons so horrific and lethal that our enemy's troops would simply refuse to fight against our forces and mutiny. I'm not talking about nerve gas or other slow-death atrocities.

What I want is for American troops to have arms that are so simultaneously irresistible and irreversibly fatal that little if any hope can be held of productively engaging our soldiers. I am sick and tired of our warriors risking precious life and limb against unworthy opponents.

Ramp up those shoulder launched F/A projectiles that selectively collapse buildings. Enhance our precision guided ordnance. Do whatever it takes to instill panic in our foes the instant we appear on the scene. Better yet, as mentioned before, intervene from afar and kill them all in their barracks before they even deploy against us.

The psychotic enemies we face need to be denuded of their fighting age men. Not just to cripple their military forces, but to inhibit genetic reproduction of cultural mindsets that oppose freedom and equality.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 20:29 Comments || Top||

#95  OK - as long as we're all swapping RB spit, I'm in agreement on the above - but I ain't kissing
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 20:30 Comments || Top||

#96  .com were you refereing to my "set us up the bomb" bit. I was referning to the asonished look on Zarks face as hit saw the flash and heard the boom.

I have a feeling he like so many AQ "true believers"Zarq actually was (I hope past tense to be sure) a coward and would not have "fought to the death." He would have tossed in the towel like many "top leaders" of AQ have. I am sure an AQ person was kept close to him to kill him or blow him to hell is his capture was certain.
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 20:35 Comments || Top||

#97  I see the MSM is trying to keep their spirits up. Here is how they are covering it:

White House Doubts al-Zarqawi among dead

I agree - its time to take our gloves off and start fighting these enemies both foreign and domestic. That inclues arresting and trying local enemies such as Ted Kennedy, Mike Al-moore, and yes, perhaps even some of the Republician 'leadershit' (misspelling intentional).
Posted by: CrazyFool || 11/20/2005 20:39 Comments || Top||

#98  SPo'D, no - I laughed when I read it, though.

I'm waiting for the snide slurs lotp posted in #78
to be clarified. I'm fed up with this faux insider shit. It's beneath a Mod and needs some airing out.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 20:42 Comments || Top||

#99  I hate to burst everyone bubble but the White House is finding this event highly unlikely....
So, what does the White House know that we don't?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/20/iraq.main/index.html

Anyhooo...if this turd died on the Christian Sabbath I find it....just!
Posted by: Long Hair Republican || 11/20/2005 20:43 Comments || Top||

#100  Your are absolutely right!! Jordanians (Palestinians) approved of Zarqawi killing Iraqis and members of the Allied Forces until they became targets of the degerate. Now, all of the sudden, they knew were the SOB was hiding.

Methinks if Abdullah tried to do anything earlier (had he wanted to), it's likely Jordan would've plunged into chaos. Now the population including the Palestinians is pissed off. Green light for the security services to... encourage... certain people to cough up information.
Posted by: Pappy || 11/20/2005 20:45 Comments || Top||

#101  Lol, Frank. No tongue? Wimp. ;-)

Zen - Indeed. SR-71 nailed an very important point - and as you say, research is geared toward removing boots on the ground in as many situations as possible - and making opposing us a guaranteed losing proposition. I am in total agreement about making it as horrific as possible, as well - though AC's point about the MSM will make it a massive shitfest. But that's the smallest price for such an effort - the much larger price is that we mourn those who have sacrificed - and will sacrifice in the future.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 20:46 Comments || Top||

#102  But Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said reports of al-Zarqawi's death were "highly unlikely and not credible."

I think I'll wait until after the Fat Lady's performance before I eat my pie.
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 20:50 Comments || Top||

#103  Pappy - Regards helping us whack Zarqi, and I'm with everyone here about whether this is bogus or bonafide, it should be simple to filter the source so that no one would ever know it came from Jordan, don't you think? I figure it could go through multiple people, unless the timing was ultra-critical - which it may have been.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 20:50 Comments || Top||

#104  Damn, 104 comments without Aris or Mike Sylwester, and we're not even sure he's croaked yet... the suspens is killing me...
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 11/20/2005 20:56 Comments || Top||

#105  Slow news day.
Posted by: Thavith Glaiting2310 || 11/20/2005 20:57 Comments || Top||

#106  Pappy is right about the dynamics among the wider Jordanian populace. And no, it isn't always easy to hide the locale/source of intel while also acting on it - short half life for this sort of thing.

Shouldn't obscure what Abdullah has done as an ally, tho.

Y'all are free to have whatever opinion you want, of course. Mine is based on firsthand accounts by people I know well who have spent time in the region of late - both in Amman and in more sandy places not too far away.
Posted by: lotp || 11/20/2005 21:20 Comments || Top||

#107  Of course we're free to have differing opinions, we don't need your approval.

Clarify #78. Coward.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 21:26 Comments || Top||

#108  1. Does giving aid to any particular country equate to not having to fight them? Please specify howso. This is a BS strawman and I've got a match.

2. It's unncecessarily complicated NOW. I suggest uncomplicating it. Another strawman, another match.

3. I know about those pit-a-pat goodies and life-giving resources, first-hand, not second-hand. That's three.

4. Swaggering? How is reassessing decades-old accommodations swaggering? How is matching our words and deeds swaggering? Isn't that something the we each should do personally? Can't our Govt live up to that same standard? If not, why not? Four.

5. Your buddies in green? Who do you think you are? You rub shoulders with them in your job and that embues you with their sacrifice and heroism? Pfeh, what utter bullshit. You bask in reflected light. And that's not a tan you're sportin', that's your bullshit level. Five.

Enough. More than enough. Your entire slur post is a strawman. You don't like me or my opinions? Who cares? I'm just tired of it.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 21:28 Comments || Top||

#109  to certain mods: I'd be careful to assume you know more than contributors who've beem abroad and tasted the bitter Islamic fruit. No offense intended, but existing in Saudi gives reality more than third-hand State and Diplo-Mil reports, from those who wish to promote. Capice?
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 21:35 Comments || Top||

#110  Does giving aid to any particular country equate to not having to fight them?

You'd bloody well think so. But, as I pointed out about Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, North Korea, Somalia .... Hell, give them money, are they grateful? No they're spiteful and they're hateful. [big grin]

I'm just sick of having to undo what our own money has been spent on doing by these loons.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 21:36 Comments || Top||

#111  one must cross one's fingers.
Posted by: 3dc || 11/20/2005 21:43 Comments || Top||

#112  Zenster - with your last post.... I hear a song in your words.... something like
THIS!
Posted by: 3dc || 11/20/2005 21:58 Comments || Top||


Debka Update: Eight high-ranking al Qaeda leaders blew themselves
Um, mouse, is that the headline you really want?
The US force, backed by helicopters and tanks, was led to the location by an intelligence tip. The troops had evacuated the area and were preparing to storm the building when the terrorists killed themselves.

Some Arab sources report that American unit is now busy trying to identify the 8 bodies, hoping against hope that Abu Musab al Zarqawi is among them. This is not confirmed by US military sources.
Posted by: anymouse || 11/20/2005 10:55 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  A two letter preposition---humble, but so important in the big scheme of things.
Posted by: Al Aska Paul || 11/20/2005 13:28 Comments || Top||

#2  Paul...you know all those stories about those "rightuous" holy warriors that are queer for each other's gear.
Posted by: anymouse || 11/20/2005 17:27 Comments || Top||

#3  Anymouse---You mean Jihadi Guy with the Queer Eye. Sorry, I was referring to Mullah Omar. Getting confused again.
Posted by: Al Aska Paul || 11/20/2005 17:31 Comments || Top||

#4  Heh, heh, heh. How do you do this?
Posted by: Chokedchicken6969 || 11/20/2005 17:39 Comments || Top||

#5  Paul...that's really good. BTW, I like the Al Aska monilker.
Posted by: anymouse || 11/20/2005 18:15 Comments || Top||

#6  Moniker? Hell, it's his title. The only imman with bejeweled snowshooos.
Posted by: Shipman || 11/20/2005 19:40 Comments || Top||

#7  jewel-becrusted pocket protector
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 20:43 Comments || Top||


DEBKA sez: Senior terrorists surrounded in Mosul
My fingers are crossed and my breath is held...
Posted by: phil_b || 11/20/2005 07:27 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  AP sez:
"In Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad, Iraqi officials said police and U.S. soldiers surrounded a house before dawn Saturday after reports that al-Qaida in Iraq members were inside, said Brig. Said Ahmed al-Jubouri, a Mosul police spokesman.

As a fierce gunbattle broke out, three insurgents detonated explosives and killed themselves to avoid capture. Five more died fighting, while four police officers also were killed. Al-Jubouri said officials were attempting to identify the dead insurgents."
Posted by: Glenmore || 11/20/2005 9:42 Comments || Top||

#2  we can only hope and pray Zarq is now in Hell with allan and his raisins.
Posted by: anymouse || 11/20/2005 9:49 Comments || Top||

#3  Yep, this is just more clear evidence that we are losing the war. Boy that Murtha really is on target. What a friggin maroon.

Although, wouldn't it be just too perfect, in a Rovian sort of way, to have Al Zarq confirmed killed the day after the dem's in Congress showed themselves to be spineless f-ing wimps.

We are winning this war. The president has to come out and state that clearly with the obvious evidence that is out there to back it up. Show to dem's and the MSM for the moonbat traitors that they are.
Posted by: Remoteman || 11/20/2005 11:53 Comments || Top||

#4  Here's hoping. Nailing Zarq would be some welcome news here at home and especially in Jordan. I'd love to see how the Arab world would spin their joy over this killer being caught against their wish for his terrorism to continue. They'd blow a gasket just trying to compose the headline.

Hooray, Zarq is dead! Boy, will we miss him ... [kablammo!]
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 12:10 Comments || Top||

#5  Ding Dang (if its true)
Posted by: Ding Dangalang || 11/20/2005 12:20 Comments || Top||


U.S., Iraqi Troops Raid Building in Mosul
U.S. and Iraqi forces raided a farmhouse in northern Iraq at dawn Saturday, searching for suspected members of al-Qaida in Iraq. Eight insurgents and four Iraqi policemen were killed, officials said. Brig. Said Ahmed al-Jubouri, the spokesman for the Mosul police, said Iraqi police and U.S. soldiers surrounded a house in the al-Sukar neighborhood of Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad. A fierce gunfight erupted and three of the insurgents detonated explosives, killing themselves. Five more died fighting, while four police officers were also killed, he added.

Al-Jubouri said officials were attempting to identify the dead insurgents. Nineva province Governor Duraid Kashmola confirmed the report, adding that one woman was among the dead insurgents.
Posted by: Fred || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Iraqi police?? Murtha said they were targetting only us*? Good work by both troops

*/bitter sarcasm
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 0:30 Comments || Top||

#2  There is a rumor floating around that one of the dead is Zarqawi.
Posted by: Grins Sluper5274 || 11/20/2005 6:35 Comments || Top||

#3  shhh....it's been around since june/july.
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 6:42 Comments || Top||

#4  What's giving those rumors a little more fuel is how two of the 2 terrorists blew themselves up. Zarkawi has always said he wouldn't be taken alive.
Posted by: BillH || 11/20/2005 8:06 Comments || Top||

#5  Debka is reporting the Zarqawi angle.
Posted by: doc || 11/20/2005 11:21 Comments || Top||


MNF kills 32 militants, arrests 69 suspected terrorists
The US marines killed 32 gunmen in a fresh clash which flared out in the Ramadi area Friday, a statement by the Multi-National Forces based in Iraq said. Witnesses told KUNA however that two civilians were killed and three were injured during the clash.

In the meantime, a force unit combined of the MNF and Iraq security men arrested 49 suspected terrorists in different areas of the Iraqi capital. The force has cracked down at 350 houses in the city to clean it up of what MNF has described as "terror acts". The iraqi side has led the operation, according to the statement. Another 20 suspected terrorists were arrested in the city of Dour, another MNF statement reported. Little resistance to the operation was reported.
Posted by: Fred || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Are those Australians?
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 6:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Aussies? Nope, their USMC Jarheads fightin' in dar Philippines, crica 1899-1902.
Posted by: The Happy Fliegerabwehrkanonen || 11/20/2005 9:19 Comments || Top||

#3  Yeah, USMC. The guy in the front is roumored to be a Greek greenie. LOL! Sorry, that's kinda inside baseball.
Posted by: abu Half || 11/20/2005 10:57 Comments || Top||

#4  Things are getting worse, definitely time to redeploy to the periphery. Besides, there aren't any Iraqi troops capable of fighting the insurgents.
Posted by: KBK || 11/20/2005 12:12 Comments || Top||

#5  LOL - boy that got the hackles up....
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 13:21 Comments || Top||


14 Iraqis killed, 20 wounded in two separate explosions in Baghdad
Up to 14 Iraqis were killed and 15 others were injured Saturday in a car bomb explosion on a roadway near a market in Diyala bridge area in northeast the Iraqi capital Baghdad. An Iraqi police source told KUNA that a booby-trapped vehicle parked near the Diyala bridge area blew up killing 11 Iraqis, including women, and wounding 15 others. The source denied reports that the explosion was targeting an Iraqi police patrol. Eyewitnesses indicated that the victims and wounded were rushed to hospital while the police sealed-off the scene. According to a source in the Ministry of Interior, the death toll of the explosion rose from 11 to 14 and the injured are now reported to number 18.

Meanwhile, a booby-trapped vehicle exploded in Al-Bataween area in central Baghdad targeting a patrol belonging to a ministry of interior force, injuring five Iraqis, including two members of law and order forces. An Iraqi police source indicated that the explosion seemed to be an ambush against the law and order forces.
Posted by: Fred || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


49 Die in Iraq Blasts
KUNA says 65 dead...
A suicide bomber detonated his car in a crowd of Shiite mourners north of Baghdad on Saturday, killing at least 36 people and raising the death toll in two days of attacks against Shiites to more than 120. Earlier Saturday, a car bomb exploded in a crowd of shoppers at an outdoor market in a mostly Shiite neighborhood on the southeast edge of Baghdad, killing 13 people and wounding about 20 others, police reported. Witnesses said they saw a man park the car and walk away shortly before the blast.

The second suicide car bomb exploded late in the afternoon as mourners offered condolences to Raad Majid, head of the municipal council in the village of Abu Saida, over the death of his uncle. Abu Saida is near Baqouba, a religiously mixed city 35 miles northeast of Baghdad. Police said about 50 people were injured. On Oct. 29, a bomb hidden in a truck loaded with dates exploded in another Shiite community in the same area, killing 30 people.

Ambulances streamed into the main hospital in Baqouba ferrying the wounded from Saturday's blast; many were rushed directly into operating rooms where doctors worked frantically to save them. Hospital facilities were so crowded that dazed and bloodied survivors — many with serious injuries — lay in agony on gurneys in the hallways because of the surgery backlog. Doctors and nurses in blood-spattered white uniforms rushed from gurney to gurney trying to determine who to treat first.
Posted by: Fred || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Telegraph: SAS mission to kill a Baghdad suicide squad
The SAS killed three suicide bombers in Baghdad as part of an undercover, shoot-to-kill operation in Iraq, it can be revealed. The three terrorists were all killed by SAS snipers armed with specialist rifles. Each terrorist was wearing a suicide vest laden with commercial explosives. It is understood that they were intending to target cafes and restaurants frequented by members of the Iraqi security forces.

A 16-man unit of the SAS, acting on intelligence obtained by an Iraqi agent working for the Secret Intelligence Service (MI6), shot dead the would-be bombers in a combined SAS and American operation in July this year.

Details of the mission codenamed Operation Marlborough have remained secret until now - primarily because it was launched in the same week that a Metropolitan Police firearms unit in London shot dead Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian electrician, in the mistaken belief that he was a suicide bomber.

It marked one of the most successful counter-insurgency operations undertaken by British forces since the start of the Iraq conflict. It is the first time it has become clear that the SAS is working with American special forces on a permanent basis in Iraq. The troops were part of Task Force Black, the coalition's special forces unit based in Baghdad. It is composed of a squadron of SAS troopers and members of the Delta Force - the clandestine American army special forces unit - plus other elements of British and American forces. It acts on intelligence gathered by a network of Iraqi spies working for the CIA and MI6.

The unit only undertakes "black", or covert, operations and is one of the few coalition units in Iraq with the specific task of launching attacks against suicide bombers.
Posted by: Pappy || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Teamwork works! Nice job, gentlemen. Thank you.
Posted by: trailing wife || 11/20/2005 5:07 Comments || Top||

#2  Have a nice day!
Posted by: Curt Simon || 11/20/2005 7:43 Comments || Top||

#3  good hunting, gentlemen. as deep intel improves, this will happen more and more.
Posted by: anymouse || 11/20/2005 9:05 Comments || Top||

#4  I wonder why they are talking about these guys at all? Ever since the start of the WoT, there has been a SOCOM "shadow war" going on all over the planet, vigorously whacking bad boys in ops like this, but with almost no publicity.

The last press release, perhaps a year ago, was that over 200 of these black ops Rambos had been killed so far in the WoT--not individuals who go into that night easily. Tens of thousands of villains have most likely met their end due to the direct and intel-gathering operations of these SOCOM types.

http://www.socom.mil/
Posted by: Anonymoose || 11/20/2005 10:18 Comments || Top||

#5  Nobody does breathless coverage better than the Tgraph.
Posted by: abu Half || 11/20/2005 10:58 Comments || Top||

#6  That, and a key fact: The op is LONG over. Well, this particular one, and from what I can see there's NO actionable intel that could be used AGAINST Task Force Black or against whoever MI6 recruited (amongst the indigs? WOW!) to be eyes and ears for TF Black, if only because the article only identifies units. Good show of journalistic prudence by the Telegraph.

Anonymoose, no calling them Rambo. Outsmarting the enemy preempts that. ;)
Posted by: Edward Yee || 11/20/2005 12:17 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine-Jordan
Jarko Disowned By Family over Threat to King Abdullah

Family members of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi have renounced the Jordanian-born Al-Qaida in Iraq chief, telling King Abdullah II that they would "sever links with him until doomsday."

Al-Zarqawi, whose real name is Ahmed Fadheel Nazzal al-Khalayleh, claimed responsibility for the 9 November deadly attacks on three Amman hotels, which killed 59 people.

He took his name from the city of Zarqa, 27km northeast of Amman.

In half-page advertisements on Sunday in Jordan's three main newspapers, 57 members of the al-Khalayleh family, including al-Zarqawi's brother and cousin, also reiterated allegiance to the king.

Al-Zarqawi had threatened to kill the king in an audiotape on Friday.

"As we pledge to maintain homage to your throne and to our precious Jordan ... we denounce in the clearest terms all the terrorist actions claimed by the so-called Ahmed Fadheel Nazzal al-Khalayleh, who calls himself Abu Musab al-Zarqawi," the family members said.

"We announce, and all the people are our witnesses, that we - the sons of the al-Khalayleh tribe - are innocent of him and all that emanates from him, whether action, assertion or decision."

Family protection

The statement is a blow to al-Zarqawi, who will no longer enjoy the protection of his tribe and whose family members may seek to kill him.

The statement said anyone who carried out such violence in the kingdom does not enjoy its protection.

"A Jordanian doesn't stab himself with his own spear," they wrote. "We sever links with him until doomsday."

Sunday's message was similar to one sent by some members of al-Zarqawi's clan to Abdullah last year.

That message, which contained fewer signatories, also severed links with the leader for claiming a failed terror plot in April 2004 that targeted the Amman headquarters of the Jordanian intelligence agency, the prime minister's office and the US embassy.

Bedouin tribe

Al-Khalayleh is a branch of the Bani Hassan, one of the area's largest and most prominent Bedouin tribes, which along with several other tribes form the bedrock of support for the royal family's Hashemite dynasty.

Relatives hold senior posts in the army and other government
protection.

Al-Zarqawi has often boasted of his family's influence when he was jailed in his native Jordan, said Yousef Rababaa, an ex-convict who shared al-Zarqawi's cellblock for four years until both were freed under a royal amnesty in 1999.

"Prison wardens and other prisoners feared him because of his family connections and influence," he said recently.

Al-Zarqawi was sentenced to death in absentia for planning another conspiracy that led to the 2002 killing of US aid worker Laurence Foley.

He also leads a campaign of bombings and kidnappings in Iraq, and the United States has offered $25 million for information leading to his capture.


Even his own family realized he's a mutant, and King Abdullah probably has their number as well...
Posted by: BigEd || 11/20/2005 11:18 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Al-Zarqawi was sentenced to death in absentia for planning another conspiracy that led to the 2002 killing of US aid worker Laurence Foley.

Yep, when ol Zarko's killing infidels it ain't a big deal. But when he start shitting in his own nest, well...bad for business.
Posted by: tu3031 || 11/20/2005 11:59 Comments || Top||

#2  Zarqawi is a satan worshipper in a blood cult disguised as a mooslim. He is sentenced to die and may a million shards of fine glass penetrate his child molesting body one piece at a time. If he was given justice by his co-molesters to escape justice here on earth, then God's infinite justice will prevail. Unlike the pervert apostate Zarqawi, I will not pretend to know what God's plan will be for him. Zarqawi repeatedly elevated himself to the level of God and will now face the terrible truth... he is not God. If this event is used to provoke a response out of Zarqawi to deny his death as a coward that he is, then so be it. It will save time and money on doing DNA tests trying to verify if the suckling pig was finally well roasted. So how about it Zarqawi? Is you dead pig meat or are you live pig meat? If you alive pig-boy, then be it known that you are soon dead.
Posted by: Fun Dung Poo || 11/20/2005 14:20 Comments || Top||

#3  This has the ring of a "please don't kill us!" epiphany on the part of his tribe.

The BBC describes his tribe in ass felching terms.
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 19:31 Comments || Top||


DEBKAfile: Zarqawi threatens a general assault on Jordan.
DEBKAfile Exclusive: Zarqawi threatens a general assault on Jordan. Amman will become a second Baghdad – unless King Abdullah surrenders to his terms, including closure of the Israeli embassy

November 19, 2005, 8:57 PM (GMT+02:00)

Al Qaeda’s Iraq chief Abu Musab al Zarqawi is reported by DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources to have confronted King Abdullah of Jordan with a five-point ultimatum to save his kingdom from a general offensive:

1. Jordan must expel forthwith all American and British military forces. DEBKAfile adds: several thousand US troops are based in the Hashemite kingdom, including special forces defending the Jordanian-Iraqi border from both sides. US air force personnel fly helicopter and fighter aircraft missions against terrorist targets in Iraq from Jordanian air bases. American troops in Iraq receive supplies from rear bases in the kingdom. US tankers regularly dock at Jordan’s Red Sea port of Aqaba with fuel supplies for the American army in Iraq. They are escorted by US warships. The British forces in Iraq are mostly Royal Air Force units.

2. Jordan must close the Israeli embassy in Amman.

3. The training of Iraqi police contingents in Jordan must cease. They are given courses at facilities especially set up in the kingdom. Jordanian instructors drill new Iraqi recruits.

4. Jordan must shut down prison facilities holding Iraqi inmates.

5. The Jordanian embassy in Baghdad must close and its staff withdrawn from Iraq. DEBKAfile’s sources add:

In the ongoing investigation of al Qaeda’s triple hotel attacks in Amman Nov. 9, which left 57 dead, Jordanian security services have found three local terror groups which act as Zarqawi’s surrogates:

Bayat al Imam: (The Imam’s Oath), an extremist group founded in 1994, many of whose members trained in Al Qaeda’s camps in Herat, W. Afghanistan.

Jundi al-Shem: This Jordanian group of terrorists is associated with the violent Ansar al-Islam which operates in the Kurdish regions of Iraq.

Brigades of Monotheists: Servants of the One God.

Jordanian, American and Israeli intelligence take Zarqawi’s threats of an offensive against the Hashemite kingdom with the utmost seriousness. They have detected initial signs of preparedness for action among the the arch-terrorist's sympathizers in Jordan.
Posted by: 3dc || 11/20/2005 03:47 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Based on remarks by Kerry and Murtha, Zarq appears to be announcing Mission Accomplished in Iraq. On to Hashemite and Saud!
Posted by: john || 11/20/2005 7:18 Comments || Top||

#2  If the Jordanians are moving equipment to the Syrian border, this may be the reason. It appears the Jordanians are going to cut right into Zarqawi's base of operation that Washington has tolerated in Syria. The Syrians can't cover all the other borders with sufficient force, something will pop and the rotten house will collapse. Its difficult the organize a 'general assault' when your rear areas are being overrun. King Abdullah doesn't have to worry about the Dems or MSM or an ineffectual UN. And he knows that GWB will not interfere. He knows where real power lies. The tail is about to wag the dog.
Posted by: Glock Thrang2756 || 11/20/2005 9:37 Comments || Top||

#3  Way to go with that "winning hearts and minds" thing, Zark, old boy. Keep it up; at the rate you are burning through allies, in another couple of months you won't have a pot to piss in.
Posted by: Sgt. Mom || 11/20/2005 9:40 Comments || Top||

#4  Man, that crazy Zark! He don't get along with nobody. I'm starting to think that boy just ain't right.
Posted by: SteveS || 11/20/2005 11:11 Comments || Top||

#5  This is just so rich. Seems like the average Jordanian (Arab or Palestinean) is no longer so enamored of Zarq. Zarq's butt is being kicked all over the place in Iraq and all he can do is attack soft civilian targets. I think even Jihad Unspun is running thin on material. And then for him to pull this "Lion of Islam" charade...it is theater of the absurd.
Posted by: Remoteman || 11/20/2005 12:05 Comments || Top||

#6  If the other threads are true, i.e. Zarquawi is a crispie critter, he can't very well launch any attacks anywhere.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 13:54 Comments || Top||

#7  To expand on Glock's theory: Jordan moves equipment to Syrian border. Assad feels heat, knows he could find himself in a two-front war, possibly a three or four-front war, if Israel or Turkey join.

So he hands Zarqawi's location over to Jordan, who hands it over to US and Iraq.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 11/20/2005 13:58 Comments || Top||

#8  Mr. Crawford, I like the way you think. That scenario is very intriguing.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 14:07 Comments || Top||

#9  I guess it was all right to talk about the "umma" and the Caliphate as long as it didn't interfere with the "kingdoms" of the area. Turkey was ok as a target - it's a secular government. Iraq was ok as a target - it was a madman's government. Even Syria and Lebanon are acceptable targets - they're kind of a cross between Turkey and Iraq. Threatening the Hashemite Kingdom is obviously a no-no, and Zark-boy went too far. The death of Hariri stirred the pot, and things are not going well in Lebanon and Syria for the AQ crowd. Jordan is PISSED, and things are getting tight there, not only for AQ, but for Syria as well. Now we need to find some way to stir up trouble in Iran, and keep them so occupied they can't meddle in Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria. Personally, I'd like to see a pincher-movement from Afghanistan and Iraq on Tehran, with a blocking movement by Russia to the north and an amphibious assault on the south, but I don't think this administration has large enough gonads. If Zarq is indeed dead, look for things to get VERY muddy, very fast, everywhere.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 11/20/2005 16:37 Comments || Top||


Israeli Navy to get 2 more Dolphin subs
EFL
There was no surprise in the Israel Navy over the weekend report that German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's outgoing government has agreed to sell Israel two submarines for a deeply discounted price.

German news magazines Der Spiegel and Focus reported on Saturday that the submarines would be built in Kiel for a total of about €1 billion (NIS 5.4 billion) and the federal government would pick up one-third of the cost.

The navy has been seeking two more of the state-of-the-art diesel/electric subs to add to its fleet of three Dolphin-class subs which Germany practically donated after the 1990 Gulf War.

But the German government has repeatedly turned down the request, reportedly because of reports Israel had outfitted the submarines with Israeli-made, sea-launched cruise missiles. Sensitive armaments deliveries need approval from Berlin's secretive security council.

According to German media reports, Schroeder's Social Democrat-Greens government had long been hesitant about the deal, which would help its indigenous shipbuilding industry, because it feared that Dolphins armed with nuclear weapons would threaten Middle East stability.

For the past two years, reports have appeared periodically of an impending Dolphin sale, but this report came following warming defense ties between Israel and Germany. Israel and Germany recently agreed for the first time to hold joint ground forces maneuvers this coming year, most probably on German soil. This came about following a visit to Israel earlier this month by Gen. Wolfgang Schneiderhan, chief of staff of the German Armed Forces.

The air force and the navy have both conducted joint exercises over the years, and there has been an exchange of military delegations and observers. But this would be the first joint ground exercise, reportedly focused on urban counter-terrorism, sniper squad and special operations missions.

The two new Dolphin submarines would reportedly be built at the Kiel-based Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG, the world's biggest builder of non-nuclear submarines.

The Dolphin-class submarines are the most expensive platforms in the IDF's arsenal. Germany donated the first two submarines to Israel as a gift after the first Gulf War and split the cost of the third. Navy sources said the newer Dolphins will be able to stay submerged for a longer period than the present ones.

The major obstacle has been the cost of the submarines. A senior Navy source said that there was much debate in the IDF over the necessity of more surface vessels; there was no question that Israel needed more submarines. The source added that Israel was looking to recreate Germany's 1990 generosity.

"The disengagement is having an impact on the Germans and we don't expect a problem with their permits," the source told The Jerusalem Post.

Other senior naval officers have said they expect ties to improve due to the changing political environment both here and there. "There is a life span to these submarines," a senior Navy officer said, adding that the first Dolphin-class submarine is already seven years old. The Navy plans to upgrade its Dolphins so that they can remain under water for a longer length of time.

The Dolphin was built according to Israeli specifications gleaned from Israel's experience. Its short and stout shape was tailor-made for Israel's special needs and it reportedly has considerable commando capability. It has a crew of 35 and can support 10 additional passengers
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 01:57 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Mullahs to Mull Dolphin Mathematics.

/It's a short and stout formulary
Posted by: Red Dog || 11/20/2005 3:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Israel and Germany recently agreed for the first time to hold joint ground forces maneuvers this coming year, most probably on German soil

Holey Moley!
I hear the games begin with an German aroumed assault against lightly armed, urban entrenched, yet this time well supplied Zionist forces.
Posted by: Shipman || 11/20/2005 11:06 Comments || Top||

#3  Shipman. You are wrong. The subject of the wargame is: the EU sends a force to help the paleostinians (1). In 48 hours the Isrealis surround it, capture it, cover it in tar and feathers and put it in planes heading to Berlin. (2)

(1) Not absurd. There are people this side of teh ocean who advocate just this: send the European armies to Middle East and expel Tsahal out of the occupied territories. By force.

(2) I have seen too many German soldiers shopping in uniform (and in groups) at working hours to not be sceptical about present day German Army. My guess is that after end of cold war it has gone downhill both for credits, training and discipline.

Posted by: JFM || 11/20/2005 13:56 Comments || Top||

#4  One of the Google Ads for this:

"Check out great deals on Us Navy submarines at Ebay and save..."
Posted by: Phil || 11/20/2005 14:32 Comments || Top||


Southeast Asia
Don't Link Us To Terrorism, Sez Malaysia's Najib
Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak Saturday said others should not be quick to point fingers at Malaysia whenever there were terrorist attacks or incidents of unrest in their countries. He said Malaysia had never been responsible for such incidences but in fact had played a positive role in helping bring stability to the region.

On the involvement of Malaysians in terrorist activities abroad, Najib described it as most unfortunate.

"It's very unfortunate that Malaysians like Dr Azahari Husin and Nordin M Top played leading roles in the Jemaah Islamiah terrorist organisation in Indonesia, but these are matters beyond our control," said Najib.

On Nordin Mat Top, the right-hand man of Asia's most wanted terrorist, Dr Azahari Husin whose reign of terror ended after being killed in a shootout with Indonesian police in East Java on Nov 9, Najib said the fugitive was still believed to be in Indonesia but if he managed to escape to here the task of hunting him down would be Malaysia's responsibility.

Earlier, Najib had witnessed a mass circumcision ceremony at the Sekolah Kebangsaan Wira near here and also gave away bicycle gifts to 267 pupils who excelled in the Ujian Penilaian Sekolah Rendah (UPSR) examination in the Pekan district.
Mass circumcision... I'm imagining a Busby Berkeley choreography with lots of shiny knives...
Posted by: Pappy || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  a mass circumcision ceremony

Oy gevalt, and not a mohel in sight!
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 0:37 Comments || Top||

#2  What about Thailand's 1000 dead from cross border nutcases?
Posted by: 3dc || 11/20/2005 2:16 Comments || Top||

#3  When I think of Malaysia I think of "Thai islamic insurgents" and piracy on the sea.
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 2:19 Comments || Top||

#4  I can damn sure assure you that the mass circumcision ceremony participants were not really interested in the bicycle gifts.
Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom || 11/20/2005 3:31 Comments || Top||

#5  Malaysia is responsible for breeding and letting those demented souls grow there. As a peace loving Indonesian who also affected by their deeds, if I caught Mr. Top, I'd love to skin the satan's own baby boy alive.
Posted by: Glaique Hupinert9616 || 11/20/2005 8:15 Comments || Top||


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
Iran MPs vow to end atomic checks if sent to UN
TEHERAN - Iranian lawmakers on Sunday voted to oblige their government to stop allowing snap UN checks of atomic sites and to resume uranium enrichment if Teheran is sent to the UN Security Council. In the vote, broadcast live on state radio, 183 out of 197 lawmakers present voted for the bill.
The other 14 were detained and haven't been heard from since.
The legislation must now be approved by Iran’s constitutional watchdog, the conservative 12-man Guardian Council.

Iran faces referral to New York for possible sanctions after failing to convince the world its atomic scientists are focusing on power stations rather than warheads. The board of governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) will meet in Vienna on Thursday to decide on what steps to take with Iran’s case.
Oh yeah, they're going to get right on it ...

Lawmaker Alaeddin Boroujerdi, head of parliament’s foreign policy and security commission, exhorted opposition parliamentarians from the reformist camp to show a united front in the national interest. “This is not a factional, political issue it is a national issue,” he said in the debate.

The bill calls for Iran’s government to stop following the Additional Protocol to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which allows snap UN checks of atomic sites. It also calls on Iran to resume all activities that it stopped voluntarily. Foremost among these is the moratorium on enriching uranium.

Despite Western pressure on it to halt nuclear activity, Iran earlier this week said it had begun processing a new batch of uranium. Iran insists on developing its own nuclear fuel cycle to produce fuel for power stations.
The sound you hear is the lips falling off.
But Washington fears Iran will enrich uranium to a high, weapons-grade level, rather than the low level needed for power stations such as the one it is building with Russian help at the Gulf port of Bushehr.

Gholamreza Aghazadeh, the head of Iran’s Atomic Energy Organisation, attended the parliament meeting and said the bill gave a clear message to the IAEA. “If the board of governors transgresses people’s rights, nations are entitled to preserve their rights,” he said.
Sorta like how Saddam had to preserve the 'national dignity' of Iraq ...
Iran’s chief atomic negotiator Ali Larijani has previously threatened to end snap checks and resume enrichment if Tehran’s case is sent to New York. But parliament’s bill turns this threat into law which the government must follow.
Posted by: Steve White || 11/20/2005 12:31 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Is there anyone else in the world asking for an asswhipping than the kleptocrat Mullahs?
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 15:17 Comments || Top||

#2  Or more deserving? Lol.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 15:22 Comments || Top||

#3  should've said "more" - but you got the drift. The MM's aren't holy, nor are they interested in Islam except in a way to create, gain, and maintain power. They are all rich beyond the dreams of common Iranians and live like princelings. My idea of the decap strike is to identify the homes, assets, facilities, everything the MM's own (they're no secret....) and along with aiming at the MM's, take out their sources of power/riches. It would shake them to the bone and, done surgically, even more scary
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 15:38 Comments || Top||

#4  There wouldn't be a Toyota dealership left in Iran, lol. Melike.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 15:47 Comments || Top||

#5  I want to hear a new song - "The Flight of a Thousand Tomahawks" - and I want it to be based on fact.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 11/20/2005 16:45 Comments || Top||


Home Front: Culture Wars
CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described (by disaffected CIA)
Clean house, Porter. Sedition and treason by Clinton holdovers should have show trials. HT Drudge, same as my other post
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Here's my question:

Do we really need every golden throat crawling up the ass of every CIA field officer whenever a terrorist breaks a nail?
Posted by: badanov || 11/20/2005 0:29 Comments || Top||

#2  If these brutes were yanking fingernails off of burglers to get their fences' names, I'd have a real big problem.

Instead, we are dealing with cretins who are out to kill scores of people at a time. Time is of the essence and every minute saved can save a human life (or ten). If these sick f&%ks want to engage in the slaughter of innocent people they had better be ready to take singing lessons when they get inside.

NOTE: For anyone who wants to preach to me about "do unto others ...":

If I was caught in the commission of a terrorist act, I'd expect nothing less than the most brutal treatment possible from my captors.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 0:46 Comments || Top||

#3  If I was a CIA agent revealing info damaging to my country - I'd expect the same
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 0:58 Comments || Top||

#4  lol.
making them stand and listen to Eminem which made them frantic?
Torture?
I love it
Posted by: Jan || 11/20/2005 1:02 Comments || Top||

#5  1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

..heck i do this almost everyday with my oldest.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

..it's a good technique, sure straightens out my suckutary secretary anyway.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

...yea, the medical bills can be a bitch.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

..sure works with the mother inlaw.


5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

..sounds like my last fishing trip in the lower peninsula.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

BFD, me and the wifey *do* this every friday nite.

Posted by: Ruff || 11/20/2005 3:08 Comments || Top||

#6  I'm not keen on the cold room, which can lead to bronchitis/pneumonia in succeptible subjects, but otherwise... when my then-teenaged mother was running messages for the Dutch Underground in WWII, she would have been shot if caught, and quite possibly tortured first to reveal those hiding her and other Jews.
Posted by: trailing wife || 11/20/2005 5:03 Comments || Top||

#7  That's totally, cool, TW. I had a great great etc. female ancestor who ran messages for the Americans against the British.
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 6:10 Comments || Top||

#8  Hmmm...sorry...didn't meant to try and cash in on the extraordinary bravery of your mother through claims to some distant ancestor... just thought it an interesting side note :-)
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 6:14 Comments || Top||

#9  The Islamofascists have yet to hit us with their worst. When they do, lifeboat ethics might change the way we do things.
Posted by: CaziFarkus || 11/20/2005 6:21 Comments || Top||

#10  CF,

You're right. It will probably take at least one, and possibly several, attacks of the same order as 9-11 to get most people to wake up again. Some people, particularly those on the left, will have a major decision to make. Some of them will decide to aid and abet the enemy openly, as opposed to the plausibly deniable help they now render.
Posted by: mac || 11/20/2005 6:45 Comments || Top||

#11  I don't believe this "confession" for a minute, for the simple reason that the CIA has been doing research on these technologies since at least the early 1970s.

Think of all the pharmaceuticals alone that anyone could use: addictives, hallucinogens, endorphine blockers, hormones, neuro-chemicals, and god knows what else.

Maybe a dozen different chip implants: drug dispensers, microphones, transceivers, explosives, etc.

We can re-program these cruds with drug-induced hypnosis and turn them into assassins or traitors, even without them being aware of it. A pound or two of advanced plastic explosives implanted in their abdomen could bring down a large building.

There really is no limit to what we can technologically do--so why the insistence on using techniques of World War II vintage?

Unless your intent is disinformation.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 11/20/2005 9:58 Comments || Top||

#12  2b, you are being uebersubtle -- I'm not trying to cash in on my mother's youthful adventures either, except inasmuch as my own life has been fairly uneventful, with so few useful episodes to add to the discussion, especially in comparison to so many here (and in some cases those "here" are off adventuring in exotic areas of the globe, or in exotic areas of America, at least as compared to the outer suburbs of Cincinnati, Ohio). I think its appropriate that you know of a female ancestor who was actively involved in our Revolution -- especially as so many women at the time were apolitically concerned exclusively with home and family. Clearly you've inherited her political interest, despite the distance in generations!
Posted by: trailing wife || 11/20/2005 10:19 Comments || Top||

#13  Think of all the pharmaceuticals alone that anyone could use: addictives, hallucinogens, endorphine blockers, hormones, neuro-chemicals, and god knows what else.

Yeah!
Posted by: abu Half || 11/20/2005 10:27 Comments || Top||

#14  I don't have any qualms against using torture even for revenge, but I found a good article on using a trytophan free diet to get the bastards to talk:

from http://www.tothepointnews.com (pay site with some free articles)

HOW TO GET A TERRORIST TO SING LIKE A CANARY WITHOUT TORTURE Print E-mail
Written by Dr. Jack Wheeler
Thursday, 06 January 2005
It is such a repulsive sight to watch showboating Senators harangue Alberto Gonzales regarding torturing terrorists. I would love to see Pat Leahy or Ted Kennedy in a street fight. Their life would depend on their willingness to use any and all means necessary to survive. Then, if they did, we would need one of their liberal colleagues condemn them: “You had no right to save yourself by not fighting fair!”

The only practical argument against torturing terrorists is that it’s so undependable: the guy will say anything to stop the torture. Often, a dramatic presentation of the threat of torture works better. Take the Israeli way:

When a Palestinian terrorist is captured, how many Israeli lives can be saved depends on how quickly and efficiently Shin Bet (Israeli Security) agents can make him squeal. They strip him naked and sit him in a chair with his legs forced apart. They bring in a large Doberman pincher whose muzzle is placed inches from his genitals. They explain: “This is Herman. Herman is a very unusual dog. Herman can smell when someone is lying. When someone lies, it gets Herman very mad. And when Herman gets mad, he bites - really hard. So we suggest you tell us the truth.”

Works like a charm.

There is, however, an interrogation method far more effective than torture, or the threat of it, that is foolproof, immediate, and humane. It works the first time, every time, with everybody -- no exceptions. Yet it is harmless, completely reversible, with no aftereffects.

First, a little background in brain chemistry. Your brain synthesizes, or manufactures, natural brain chemicals called neurotransmitters, which are necessary for the proper functioning of various activities. Neurotransmitters are chemical messengers which transmit the appropriate signals through brain circuits for thinking, feeling, and motor action. One such neurotransmitter is called serotonin. Serotonin is an "inhibitory" neurotransmitter, and its constant presence is absolutely required for a normal and non-psychotic state of mind.

Neurotransmitters are synthesized in the cell bodies of the neurons in the brain from specific nutrients in one's diet. Norepinephrine, for example, responsible for alertness and mental energy, is synthesized from the amino acid phenylalanine and a number of additional co-factors. Caffeine works by stimulating the release and prolonging the activity of norepinephrine.

The neurotransmitter serotonin is synthesized from the amino acid tryptophan. Without tryptophan, the brain cannot make serotonin. This mechanism applies not only to the human brain, but to the brain of every species in the animal kingdom, from dogs to rats to elephants to birds.

There have been numerous experiments that demonstrate the effects of a tryptophan-free diet on brain function in humans. Within about four hours, brain serotonin levels drop like a rock. Lacking the inhibitory regulation of serotonin, the brain becomes incapable of modulation. The individual possessor of such a brain rapidly becomes angry, depressed, and impulsive -- incapable of controlling his emotions.

The last thing a captured terrorist, intent on withholding information and resistant to interrogation, wants is to be uncontrollably impulsive. Such an individual would be putty in the hands of a skilled interrogator.

The means of converting a terrorist into putty is TFM Interrogation, using tryptophan-free meals (TFMs). Not protein-free meals. Meals engineered to have only tryptophan excluded, and all other essential amino acids present. Protein is, of course, a package or assemblage of various combinations of amino acids.

With a protein-free meal, blood amino levels will drop, causing the liver and other organs to start extracting aminos from blood albumin, then from muscle, then from organ tissue. Such amino extraction will include tryptophan. In other words, deprived of dietary protein, the body will cannibalize itself in order to supply the brain with tryptophan and other vital aminos.

But a meal engineered to provide all necessary aminos except tryptophan exclusively will not cause such cannibalization. The liver has no capacity to notice the lack of one single amino such as tryptophan, just the overall lack of entire assemblies of aminos, or protein.

A TFM is a semi-synthetic meal replacement, prepared in the form of a porridge, for example. It can contain plenty of real starch, plenty of real fat, plenty of real sugar or honey -- plenty of real chocolate if desired. What it cannot contain is any complex protein at all. Instead, it must contain about 30 grams of a synthetic mixture of all essential aminos in crystalline form -- specifically excluding tryptophan. Further, such a mixture should contain the same ratio of aminos as milk or meat, but with an extra amount of the aminos phenylalanine and tyrosine, which will both block any tryptophan extracted from the body reaching the brain, and increase the subject's levels of anxiety and anger.

Three such TFMs should be given to the subject over 12 hours, with the subject not having anything to eat prior to the first TFM for several hours. After four hours, the subject will become agitated, depressed, angry, and impulsive. He obviously must be heavily guarded and possibly restrained. Over the next eight to twelve hours, his symptoms will increase, becoming suicidal. Subjected to a TFM diet over a period of several days, he will become fully psychotic.

After a round of interrogation during a TFM period, the subject should then receive a normal meal with complex protein -- or simply the TFM with one or two grams of crystalline tryptophan added (it's tasteless so he won't notice any difference). He will calm down and feel pleasant. Then a "good cop" interrogator can step in and soothe him. Next meal time, it's back to the TFM, and back the subject goes into uncontrollable impulsiveness. The subject will quickly develop a real fear of the "bad cop" interrogator who interrogates him during the TFM periods.

There are no side or after-effects of TFM Interrogation. It is completely reversible immediately within an hour or less after one regular non-TFM meal. TFM Interrogation can be performed in the field, at Gitmo, anywhere. Red Cross observers or even Pat Leahy could be present. They could even analyze the subject's blood -- for whatever they test for, they wouldn’t think of testing for a lack of tryptophan. And even if they did, what would be the complaint? Malnutrition? Malnutrition that lasts for less than 24 hours?

TFM Interrogation is an ultimate form of interrogation - soon to be utilized by the Pentagon to protect America from the bad guys.
Posted by: Eric || 11/20/2005 10:51 Comments || Top||

#15  hey Eric, don't give away all the secrets

TW, "my own life has been fairly uneventful"; It's what is in your heart and mind, knowing that you would act if called upon. I love hearing about great deeds by ancesters, it's what makes us what we are.
Posted by: Jan || 11/20/2005 11:58 Comments || Top||

#16  http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/1632233

AMY GOODMAN: Were you having discussions with other interrogators?

TONY LAGOURANIS: Sure. We all talked about it. I discussed this with my team leader all the time. The people I was working with all the time. You know part of the problem back then too, is that I was still under the impression that we were getting prisoners who had intel -- who had intel to give us, and you know, I still thought that these were bad guys.

I was believing the intelligence reports that came in with the prisoner. I believed the detainee units, but later it became clear to me that they weren't -- they were picking up just farmers, you know, like these guys were totally innocent and that's why we weren't getting intel. And it just made what we were doing, like, seem even more cruel.

I wonder how long you people are gonna keep up the pretense to yourselves that these "interrogation techniques" are only used against "bad guys".

I still remember the time when you people were keeping up the pretense to be against torture -- that was ofcourse when you were still trying to deny the fact that it was taking place.

From a dispute concerning the facts, you people have now fallen/collapsed/retreated to a Clintonian dispute about definitions. Waterboarding's not really torture anymore, is it?

And what's the definition of "is" again?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 11/20/2005 12:15 Comments || Top||

#17  eric,
My wife is in the Psych field. She says long term it will damage them and she dosen't want anything to do with rehabbing anybody who experienced this.
Posted by: 3dc || 11/20/2005 12:18 Comments || Top||

#18  Think of all the pharmaceuticals alone that anyone could use: addictives, hallucinogens, endorphine blockers, hormones, neuro-chemicals, and god knows what else.

Hey! Leave Joe out of this!

Extremely interesting article, Eric.

After four hours, the subject will become agitated, depressed, angry, and impulsive. He obviously must be heavily guarded and possibly restrained. Over the next eight to twelve hours, his symptoms will increase, becoming suicidal.

Maybe the imams are already using this technique.

Aris, don't think I'm too happy about this turn of events. I'll ask how you would feel if some al Qaeda goon blew apart the Parthenon while it was crowded with tourists. Like Bali, think of the catastrophic drop in Greek tourism. Your country would lose, not only a priceless historical monument but untold millions, if not billions, in revenue. Now, imagine the attacks continuing.

Are you telling me that you would maintain the moral high-ground and keep letting innocent people die for the sake of leaving murderous thugs unruffled? Like I opened with; These are not cat burglers, they are mass murderers. Time is of the essence when dealing with these maggots. If the TFM dietary method works so well, use it. But whatever it takes, the message to all terrorists must be that apprehension will result in extreme discomfort and possibly permanent damage or death.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 12:28 Comments || Top||

#19  You know those military types, Zen, they're all fascists! Lol. "you people", LOL.

Somebody doesn't have enough potatos grapes to peel, lol.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 12:45 Comments || Top||

#20  You know those military types, Zen, they're all fascists!

Yeah, .com, especially us Merkins. Think of all the territory we captured during WWII that we refused to relinquish. Oh wait, that's right, America only retained an insignificant fraction of land captured during that costly and bloody war which we did not start. Yeah, we're fascists all right, sending out massive foreign aid, even to Iran and North Korea.

I'm waiting for your reply, Aris. You have always kept your discourse civil and I look forward to how you would deal with al Qaeda blasting the Parthenon and Acropolis to smithereens during the crowded summer season. Remember what mullah Omar said about the Afghan Buddhas; "We are only breaking stones." Your country's entire tourist base relies upon "stones", however beautifully piled up they might be. Do you think al Qaeda would have the least compunctions about sledge-hammering them into powder?
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 13:01 Comments || Top||

#21  "You People" is still preferable to his execrable use of "y'all"
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 13:25 Comments || Top||

#22  BTW - Eric - Tryptophan-free? At Thanksgiving time? Turkey, milk....naptime
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 13:30 Comments || Top||

#23  Waterboarding's not really torture anymore, is it?

Never was.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 11/20/2005 13:52 Comments || Top||

#24  I have been tortured by the MSM for years. You think listening to Ted Kennedy, John F. Kerry, Dingy Harry, Hildebeast, BJ, BS, Michael Moore, etc. and ad nauseum isn't torture. If it isn't, I don't know what is. I'd rather endure my fingernails being pulled out, my gonads electrified, cold food, water torture, dragging a cat's nails across the blackboard, no cable TV, etc.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 14:04 Comments || Top||

#25  You have always kept your discourse civil

*blink* I have?? Am glad you think so, but that's one bit praise I am definitely not worthy of. At best I attempt to keep it *intelligent* (or atleast sentient).

And as for how I'd deal with al Qaeda blasting the Parthenon, I feel that this is a largely irrelevant question -- I'm not disputing the current moral superiority of America over the Islamofascists afterall -- the Islamofascists are genocidal murderers while the USA are mere torturers: that's a vast difference.

It's the morality of torture techniques, period, that I challenge -- torture techniques that are used against innocents as well. Not just against murderers, not even just against burglars. Against innocents.

So, to sum up my answer, I don't know *which* country I'd like to attack after Parthenon blew up, but I am pretty sure that I'd not advocate for torturing innocents -- nor would I consider it an issue that wouldn't be worth knowing about if it was taking place (or that the government had the right to keep secret), or a trivial issue to laugh at and ignore.

Sparta was far worse than Athens in every civilization issue worth knowing of, but in the end it was Athens's own folly and arrogance and yes its own bits of tyranny in the areas it controlled that led to its eventual downfall. And more and more, the United States end up reminding me of Imperial-Athens.

If you don't care about the basic immorality of using torture techniques against innocent, think about the harm that the use of torture does in the propaganda warfare. Which nation's people will want you to deliver it of its oppressors anymore, when they know of the means you are using to do so?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 11/20/2005 15:40 Comments || Top||

#26  My father-in-law had a good friend, Paul Webb, who was a prisoner-of-war in Japan for almost three years. Out of 27 men who were in his cell-block, only five survived. Nine of them were tortured so severely they died.

My dad was at Bastogne with the 9th Arty Regt, supporting the 101st. He also helped liberate Dachau. I told him once that I couldn't believe that any human being could do what I'd read about (I was about 15 then). He had photos, not only of Dachau but of some of the Americans captured during the Battle of the Bulge.

Everyone who isn't directly involved in fighting this damned war wants everyone to play nicey-nice. War is not nice, it's hell. This blue-suiter never expected to be on the perimeter at Khe Sahn in 1971, trying to shoot black shadows in the kunai grass, but when I was there, I had no qualms at shooting at anything that moved. War means imposing your will upon someone else at the least possible cost. All the crap about "Geneva Convention" and "torture" and the rest is just that - male bovine feces, mostly fermented and recycled by a bunch of people who have no experience with warfare. Personally, I'd gladly grab a couple of hundred of them and use them as perimeter detection systems - when they scream, I'd know we were being attacked. At least that way, they'd serve some useful purpose.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 11/20/2005 15:54 Comments || Top||

#27  That's a mighty broad brush you're wielding there. Make sure you don't accidentally get any on someone who isn't a "torturer", even by your inane definition.

The proof of the pudding is never found in the second-hand blather of voyeurs who safely pontificate from afar. It's when it's up close and personal - and *fresh* - that words mean something. When your mother is killed by some "revolutionary" outfit, who cares what stripe of stupidity they sport on their banners, and by accident or not, then you can come to us and waggeth the Greek digit, demanding whatever it is you're demanding. Sans reality, you're just jerking off for the peanut gallery.

Hit the tip jar for spewing pointlessly. Then go peel some olives.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 15:58 Comments || Top||

#28  Oops, my #28 obviously, I hope, applies to #25. And OP makes my point very clearly.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 16:01 Comments || Top||

#29  If my definition of torture is inane, .com, then what's your definition of it? Before it was proved that Americans used it, I very much doubt you people here would have refused to recognize waterboarding as such.

As such, I see your technique for the obnoxiousness it is. "your mother killed", "the Parthenon destroyed".

Blah, blah -- glad you mock as meaningless the answer I was pressed in two posts into giving, about the unanswerable question of what I "would" act like. Glad you felt the need to raise the stakes -- not just the Parthenon destroyed, but my mother killed! How *civil* of you.

Truth is ofcourse none of us knows whether we'll keep to or lose our principles when something so traumatic happens.

Truth is ofcourse that there's also a difference between that, and never having any principles at all. I don't know if I'd end up wanting to torture innocent Muslims if my mother was killed by one. I don't know if my moral core would ever be so fundamentally changed as to want to harm innocents and think it utopian "nice-niceness" to try and do otherwise.

But unless *your* mother was murdered in this fashion, what's your justification for acting like you're acting *now*?

Or have you justified your own loss of principles by mere whatifs, .com? How convenient. You don't even need such trauma, you've what-ifed your way into immorality.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 11/20/2005 16:19 Comments || Top||

#30  These are merely allegations, unsubstantiated and unsourced. How fucking convenient for ABC and self-appointed demagogues. Such crap is floated everyday - for money, for moonbattery, for partisan politics, for whatever - and few are ever found substantial. ABC, the wank-o-matic's delight. They just renewed their MSM credentials.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 16:21 Comments || Top||

#31  #17 3dc---Re: rehabbing torture victims. Hey, your wife and mine should get together and talk shop, heh. From my reading and researchers my wife knows, the hard core jihadis are broken people. They are incapable of empathy, so they cannot be rehabbed. Unfortunately, there is nothing to be done about them but do what is necessary to never have them terrorize anyone again.

Herman the dawg sounds like a very convincing argument for cooperation with your interrogators, though.
Posted by: Al Aska Paul || 11/20/2005 16:23 Comments || Top||

#32  trepanning with a door-knob cutter and craftsman drill is a start
Posted by: Frank G || 11/20/2005 16:26 Comments || Top||

#33  How am I acting, Aris? I challenge you for your voyeur status, which renders everything you say to what I described: safely pontificating from afar, second-hand BS. THAT is true. Everything else you've posted is just opinion and endless blather.

As for I'd do? Lol, that's none of your business, lol. I didn't start this pointless excursion into your bloated ego, you did. I've got a pin, however. Hit the tip jar or piss off.
Posted by: .com || 11/20/2005 16:27 Comments || Top||

#34  Aris, you keep misdirecting the discussion by imputing the torture of "innocent" people. I only advocate using forceful interrogation against those who are captured amongst incontrovertible evidence of terrorist activity. Someone taken prisoner from a car bomb factory. People caught in possession of an IED. A person whose laptop is crammed with jihadist manuals and email addresses of known operatives.

These sick, twisted f&%ks are out to kill the maximum number of people possible in the least amount of time. They have essentially forfeited all consideration of their humanity by already having abandoning it themselves. Are we supposed to reinstall some sense of decency into these cretins for our own moral gratification? Is it even worthwhile?

I don't think so. Again,Aris, how would you feel about al Qaeda if they decided to utterly cripple your country and destroy some of your most nation's most cherished relics? You've yet to provide any really cogent answers. Condemning America does not excuse you from nor substitute for answering the question.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 16:37 Comments || Top||

#35  Old Patriot---Many thanks for your comments. They are right on the mark. All this torture talk in the MSM is just another tool to use to attack the administration, military, and intelligence services. It is just used as a dagger to put one of a thousand cuts into the government.

It burns my ass to see and hear these LLL pontificating and trying to tear down any authority behind the barrier of safety that our military and other agencies risk their lives for.

I for one would like to see terrorists that get caught interrogated, intel acquired, brought before a military tribunal, sentenced, and executed---swift, clean, and humane. People do not realize that the terrorist will give no quarter. Our troops in Iraq know it. The public needs to know it.

The Administration needs to communicate to the public the kind of people we are dealing with. Stop the freedom euphenisms crap. It is getting old. They need pictures of Saddam's mass graves, blown up and maimed children from suicide bombers, decapitated prisoners. The LLL is using these type of shock images as a tool. People need to know the depths of depravity of these terrorists. Right now everything is sanitized.
Posted by: Al Aska Paul || 11/20/2005 16:37 Comments || Top||

#36  These jihadist pricks would torture/kill anyone of us for the hell of it. They don't give a flip what anyone thinks. They would kill or torture Aris (his mother, his father, his sister, his aunt, and his dog) in a heartbeat. They have no regard for civilization.
Posted by: Gruling Spomort3668 || 11/20/2005 17:06 Comments || Top||

#37  Amphetamine makes you release more Serotonin.

Prozac is an SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor).

I'd bet to my last dollar we know about SSREs where E=Excitor and Anti-Amphetamines. Smoking or Snorting these would lose those 4+ hours.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles || 11/20/2005 17:20 Comments || Top||

#38  Amphetamine makes you release more Serotonin.

Prozac is an SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor).

I'd bet to my last dollar we know about SSREs where E=Excitor and Anti-Amphetamines. Smoking or Snorting these would lose those 4+ hours.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles || 11/20/2005 17:22 Comments || Top||

#39  Any chance RantBurg might hold a Job Fair?
Posted by: Shipman || 11/20/2005 17:51 Comments || Top||

#40  Most excellent idea Shipman. LOL.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 17:52 Comments || Top||

#41  .com, for all your shrills about my so-called "jerking-off", it's you who dragged my mother into this. It's you (and Frank ofcourse) who never debate with those pesky little things known as "arguments", but need to drag in your opponents' families, nationalities, personal histories, and ofcourse financial offerings. Given how much Internet costs in Greece, I'm probably wasting more money for my participation in this forum for a month than you have paid your whole existence here.

Zenster> Aris, you keep misdirecting the discussion by imputing the torture of "innocent" people.

First of all, I was talking about innocent people, not "innocent" people.

Secondly, I am not misdirecting any discussion. I'm simply starting from the fundamentals: When most people in Rantburg don't give a damn about the torture of possibly innocent Muslims, there'd be no absolutely no point to start debating with you on a far more controversial issue -- the torture of the definitely guilty.

And I've already fully answered your answer to the extent it pertains to the issue of torture, something which ofcourse .com then criticized. If you found my answer inadequate please explain how it was so.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 11/20/2005 19:08 Comments || Top||

#42  Aris, I find your answers wanting. Below are the only passages that remotely address the issue:

And as for how I'd deal with al Qaeda blasting the Parthenon, I feel that this is a largely irrelevant question -- I'm not disputing the current moral superiority of America over the Islamofascists afterall -- the Islamofascists are genocidal murderers while the USA are mere torturers: that's a vast difference.

It's the morality of torture techniques, period, that I challenge -- torture techniques that are used against innocents as well. Not just against murderers, not even just against burglars. Against innocents.

So, to sum up my answer, I don't know *which* country I'd like to attack after Parthenon blew up, but I am pretty sure that I'd not advocate for torturing innocents -- nor would I consider it an issue that wouldn't be worth knowing about if it was taking place (or that the government had the right to keep secret), or a trivial issue to laugh at and ignore.


In your first paragraph you properly distinguish between terrorists and those who seek to interdict them. Yet, in both your second and especially the third paragraph, where you purport to answer my question, you veer off into the torturing of innocents.

Again, what if the Parthenon had just been demolished with great loss of life and you apprehended an operative with partial plans and a portion of the explosive supplies for a similar destruction of the Acropolis. Would you defer inflicting any physical pain upon said terrorist and willingly risk further catastrophic loss of life in the name of maintaining the moral high ground?

I would find it extremely dificult to conscience having let more droves of people perish because I shrank from making a mass murderer uncomfortable.

And this is the larger scale issue we face today. The terrorists we are apprehending do not seek to merely destroy historic monuments, they aspire to use NUCLEAR WEAPONS for the destruction of major metropolitan cities. Try to remember how disappointed the 9-11 conspirators were that the twin towers did not topple over onto so many other city blocks full of unsuspecting people.

This is the ruthless and barbaric mindset we are up against. By replying that, "I don't know *which* country I'd like to attack after Parthenon blew up", you also sidestep another even more critical issue.

The fight against terrorism is no longer a battle waged on any particular soil or against any particular nation. Like it or not, Islamists have effectively turned this conflict into a religious war. The global Muslim community has done so little to purge its ranks of jihadists and the endless supply of terrorists have derived from such a broad swath of this planet's Muslim population, that it is rapidly becoming necessary to depose terror sponsoring nations plus extrajudicially and summarily execute Islamist leaders responsible for propagating international terrorism.

I repeat, your replies were unclear at best and I wonder if you are really willing to more closely identify relevant issues in your answers.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 20:55 Comments || Top||

#43  Again, what if the Parthenon had just been demolished with great loss of life and you apprehended an operative with partial plans and a portion of the explosive supplies for a similar destruction of the Acropolis. Would you defer inflicting any physical pain upon said terrorist and willingly risk further catastrophic loss of life in the name of maintaining the moral high ground?

No, probably not. But unlike what you claim that's not the proper analogy by far. You can't even pretend to claim that *all* the people that were so imposed "physical pain" had "partial plans" for similar destructions. You can't even pretend that all the people tortured knew of imminent nuclear bombings -- that all of them knew of plans of any imminent bombings at all. At best you can say that *some* of them knew.

You simply torture people that you think *might* have information. Indeed you torture people that *might* be terrorists, and they often prove to be (surprise, suprise) not.

So, now it's you who are misdirecting the conversation -- directing it away from what is actually happening to hypothetical questions about what-if scenarios.

But I'll play your game and tell you this: When the time comes where I feel the need to torture people for information, that need will be so urgent that I'd feel it well-worth it to pass a few years in jail afterwards for whatever torture I impose. If the stakes were so high that I'd willing to torture people, then they must also be high enough that I'd willing to spend some time in jail for them.

Can the torturers of the American military say likewise, if they feel that their torturing likewise saved tens or hundreds of lives? Recruit your torturers from those people who are selfless enough to spend jailtime afterwards!

The global Muslim community has done so little to purge its ranks of jihadists and the endless supply of terrorists have derived from such a broad swath of this planet's Muslim population, that it is rapidly becoming necessary to depose terror sponsoring nations plus extrajudicially and summarily execute Islamist leaders responsible for propagating international terrorism.

Indeed. And tell me, do you feel the torturing techniques of the American military has made the job of Islamist leaders harder or *easier* in propagating and propagandizing international terrorism?

My bet is "easier". If I was an Islamist leader I'd be happy to hear of America losing what I'd see as pretense to moral/ethical/cultural superiority. And if I were an Islamist leader, I'd be unhappy if people on the street could make the plain comparison "Americans don't torture people, but our government does".

You think that torture makes you safer? I think that torture has made American lives a hundred times more unsafe.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 11/20/2005 21:51 Comments || Top||

#44  TW sorry for the late comment - but I missed your response. I hope you don't think that I was implying that you were trying to cash in on your mom's bravery! I was very sincere and think that you have every reason to be proud.

I just felt the need to clarify because my attempt to be at one with you paled so poorly that I felt embarrassed by it. But thanks for your kind and gracious response. :-)
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 21:54 Comments || Top||

#45  Appeasement of the islamofascists does not work. France has tried to appease the jihadists. Spain has tried to appease the jihadists. I don't know why anyone in the West would expect to get a pass from the jihadists. They hate all of us in the West. This is a war against our culture. If it is not addressed now, it will have to be addressed 50 years from now by our children and 50 years later by our children's children. Forget appeasement. It does not work. Reconsider history and those who tried to appease Nazi Germany. How well did that work? The appeasers were foolish. We are in a struggle to the end. If we don't end the islamofascists/jihadists, we will end up their slaves or dead. Our culture will not exist unless we address this here and now.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen || 11/20/2005 22:11 Comments || Top||

#46  Aris, while I have, admittedly, been less than sympathetic to those who have snared in America's web of prosecuting terrorism, I will also say that I am less than happy about simple farmers and the like being subjected to physical interrogation.

You will note, in these arguments, my own careful designation of torture recipients being ones who are directly connected to acts involving imminent murder of more civilians.

I'd also like to point out, as Robert Crawford noted, that "water boarding" does not constitute a significant degree of physical torture. The treatment elicits a panic response from the suspect but does not result in any lasting physical harm, as actual drowning would. Likewise much of the physical duress described in the leading article of this thread.

When I mention torture, I am referring to the real thing, as in car batteries and the like. And yes, I'd prefer that our side not become expert in it. In fact, your own response provided goes a long way towards my own feelings about it:

When the time comes where I feel the need to torture people for information, that need will be so urgent that I'd feel it well-worth it to pass a few years in jail afterwards for whatever torture I impose. If the stakes were so high that I'd willing to torture people, then they must also be high enough that I'd willing to spend some time in jail for them.

Again, the physical discomfort and deprivation we are currently subjecting terrorist suspects to does not amount to the physical torture I would expect to spend years in jail for participating in.

Indeed. And tell me, do you feel the torturing techniques of the American military has made the job of Islamist leaders harder or *easier* in propagating and propagandizing international terrorism?

No. In the last year I have come to the conclusion that we long ago passed the point of no return. Islamists are so busy recruiting and brainwashing new killers that no action upon our own part, save a first-strike nuclear attack, could worsen our international image with these killers. NOT, because we have done so many ghastly things, but because our image has already been so distorted and twisted by these psychotics that little else we can do could make things any worse.

We are now in a life or death struggle with jihadist Islam and it is not inappropriate for us to utilize lifeboat ethics in dealing with it. The stakes are already far too high for any real mercy or restraint to be shown. Such demonstrations have consistently been turned against us to our own detriment.

Iraq has provided a vital lesson to world concerning Muslim on Muslim violence. Once such internecine strife is over, we can only expect worse treatment at the hands of whomever emerges. The glee with which Muslims kill each other is sufficient message to myself, that I no longer hold much sympathy to those who would promote it.

As I have mentioned before. A TINY FRACTION of this world's population is diverting resources so tremendous that the net result is thousands of people dying each day from avoidable starvation, disease, tyranny and oppression. I look towards the swift annihilation of these psychotic fanatical elements so that these vast expenditures can once again be directed towards the ends of fighting famine, dictatorship, illiteracy, disease and other afflictions that beset mankind.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 22:28 Comments || Top||

#47  Prozac is an SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor).

I'd bet to my last dollar we know about SSREs where E=Excitor and Anti-Amphetamines. Smoking or Snorting these would lose those 4+ hours.

I know LSD is a serotonin agonist.

But the interrogation transcripts would be a bit, uh dodgy.
Posted by: Eric || 11/20/2005 22:41 Comments || Top||

#48  "..there'd be no absolutely no point to start debating with you on a far more controversial issue -- the torture of the definitely guilty."


It's rather obvious that it is POINTLESS to torture innocent iraquis because, well, the definition of innocent implies they're not involved. If they're not involved, they can't contribute viable inelligence. Well duh.

Umm, Aris, are you sure you didn't mis-speak in that above sentence I quoted? I would cheerily endorse the torture of an obviously guilty Iraqui terrorist with actionable intelligence relating to car bombings, the majority of which also (surprise!) kills innocent Iraquis more often than (or instead of) American soldiers. I can understand why you are so concerned about the iraqui innocent that has been BLESSED BY YOUR ATTENTION, as well as understand why you'd ignore the reservations and qualifications everyone has put on their support for the torture of the guilty, but you'd buy more sympathy with me if you didn't handwave the innocent victims of terrorists that would be saved by such intelligence into second class status because you did NOT BLESS THEM WITH ***YOUR*** ATTENTION. Don't demand that we recognize YOUR nuances when you ignore the nuances of others. You're not that morally special.

The moral force of your argument derives from the high moral position put on the innocent. Agreed. However, ALL innocents possess that high moral position, not just the ones to whom a Euro, such as yourself, happens to pay attention. As the occupiers of Iraq, The US is responsible for security, although the moral and legal responsiblity for the actual killing of Innocent Iraqui civilians lies with the terroristic arrangers and implementers of car bombings, kidnappings and drive-by shootings. Thus, the moral question arises: is it right to do nothing if such inaction causes innocents to perish? Apparently, there seems to be a difference in moral opinion in this area between Euros and Americans: By their actions and words, one would say that the Euros hold that moral stigma attaches to those who murder the innocent directly, but NOT to those capable of stopping the murder but elect to do nothing to stop it. Rantburgers, for the most part, hold to the opposite, and thus attach moral stigma to Bush Sr's inaction when the Shias rebelled, for not pushing on in GWI and capturing Saddam himself, AND for the deaths of all the innocents between GWI and II because of that inaction. Call it a cultural difference and stop being intolerant.

Once one decides to act, things DO get messy. While the euros seem to have no problem with the principle of "the greatest good for the greatest number" as it applies to socialism and Communism in Russia and China, it appears that that principle is lost when it comes to this issue. Simply put, Terrorists and tyrants are acting in a calculated fashion that takes advantage of the Euro moral position by ensuring that any action taken against them takes out a few innocents. Reluctant to kill 10 innocents to save 100, the Euros do nothing and advocate doing nothing while the 100 are slaughtered. Americans do the math and conclude that "doing the greatest good for the greatest number" requires that action be taken. At the end of the day, 90 more innocents are alive. You, as a Euro, will doubtless equivocate, demur, and argue that the 100 would not have necessarily died if the Americans took no action, while by taking action, the 10 were surely killed, but the perversity of that position is this: in order for Americans to prove their position, they'd actually have to do nothing, letting 100 innocents die. And even then, the Euros won't admit the Americans were right, and argue that the NEXT 100 won't necessarily die.

Second class innocents.

I should, by the way, point out that, by this argument, invasion of Iran is not morally prudent: The Mullahs, despite all that they do and the future threat they pose, are simply not killing enough of their own people to justify the collateral damage inevitable in a GW-II style war.

I have to hit the sack now. I'm sure Aris will come up with something to cloud the issue, but to me, it all boils down to this question: are you guilty if you could have stopped a murderer, but chose not to?

Kitty Genovese would love to put in her two cents, but she's indisposed at the moment.
Posted by: Ptah || 11/20/2005 22:49 Comments || Top||

#49  Ptah, Ptah, don't you see. It's far easier to follow a dogma that deems you superior by your willingness to do nothing.

I think you nailed the most important part of the question.
Posted by: 2b || 11/20/2005 23:10 Comments || Top||

#50  Truly fine observations, Ptah. Aris, I hope you will examine the contrasts drawn between idealistic European and pragmatic American mindsets. They serve to explain a lot regarding why Europe has been stagnating for the last several decades and why America has had to intervene to save Europe from itself, not once but twice, during the last century.
Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 23:33 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan-Pak-India
Nuggets from the Urdu Press
October the cruel month
Writing in the Jang, historian Dr Safdar Mehmood stated that the greatest-in-history earthquake had hit Pakistan in the month of October. In October, too, Pakistan had to fight its war in Kashmir after the Indians grabbed it unfairly. Also in October Liaquat Ali Khan, the first prime minister, was killed. In October the governor general Ghulam Muhammad dissolved the Constituent Assembly. In the same month did Ayub Khan and Iskander Mirza impose Pakistan’s first martial law. Finally, Pervez Musharraf too overthrew the government of Nawaz Sharif in the month of October.

Offended by truth?
The daily Nawa-e-Waqt, in its column Sarerahe, greatly minded the letter supposedly written by the federal education ministry to the provincial textbook boards that in future, instead of simply praising the Muslim rule in India, facts may be given and great rulers like Ashoka be described objectively while, instead of describing the great religious achievements of Aurangzeb, his treatment of non-Muslims too be described. Further, the British period may be positively assessed and instead of Muslim commanders, the achievements of Alexander the Great be highlighted. The column expressed great anger at the instruction.

Finland’s telephone dept earns more than Pakistan
Writing in the Jang, Dr Farooq Hassan stated that America had only temporarily suspended its laws stopping aid to Pakistan, meaning that Pakistan’s war against terrorism was of no use and that Pakistan could be subjected to stoppage of aid any time. About Pakistan’s $12 billion of reserves, one had to note Finland’s telephone department making a profit of $18 billion.

Exploiting the earthquake
The daily Khabrain highlighted the criminal activities of the citizens in the aftermath of the biggest earthquake in Pakistan’s history. People were reported looting the dead bodies and houses of the affectees, dacoits were reported as looting the citizens while the entire nation was in mourning. There were citizens who came out in Lahore collecting money by the roadside, saying that it would go to the quake victims. The paper also reprimanded the TV cable owners for showing songs and dance. It criticised the showing of films in cinemas halls too.

Earthquake as divine punishment
According to the Jang, a large number of religious leaders in Lahore stated that the earthquake that killed thousands of people in Pakistan was divine punishment for the people’s dereliction from Islam. Those who reprimanded the Muslims and asked them to start praying for forgiveness were Dr Sarfraz Naeemi, Allama Maqsood Qadiri and Hafiz Abdul Ghaffar Ropari. One Ibtisam Elahi Zaheer came up with an interesting theory,: that ordinary innocent Muslims are punished with death by God if the rulers are bad.

Was it punishment of God?
Speaking to the daily Pakistan, senator SM Zafar said that floods in America and the earthquake in Pakistan had been interpreted as divine punishment. But there was a difference in the Muslim mind. If the calamity fell on a non-Muslim state it was called the curse of God, but when it fell on a Muslim, it was called a test. He said that the main thing was whether it was a test or a curse. The important thing was to prepare for the next one and plan for self-protection.

Dam-building forbidden by Islam
Reported in Khabrain, religious leader Abdul Wahab Chachar, Sheikhul Hadith of Jamia Sharia Rohri, said in Karachi that the Kalabagh Dam was not allowed by Islam in light of the fatwa given by 300 ulema 15 years ago. No one had opposed the fatwa by another fatwa, therefore the dam could not be built.

Imam Mehdi is about to appear!
Quoted in Khabrain, chief of Jamia Ashrafia Maulana Abdur Rehman Ashrafi stated that Imam Mehdi had made his entry and was about to appear in public. He said that the coming of Imam Mehdi will be a clear sign of Qiamat (End of the World). He added that the recent earthquake was a low-grade sampling of what will happen on the Day of Judgement. He said that one Maulana Sarfraz had been told by Allah that Imam Mehdi was about to make his first announcement. It was also revealed that Imam Mehdi would appear while Sarfraz was alive and Sarfraz was already 86 years old. Sarfraz went for Hajj every year to meet Imam Mehdi there because it was divinely ordained that the Imam would be there.

Mehmood Mirza’s challenging book
Writing in the Jang, Prof Dr Manzur Ahmad stated that Mehmood Mirza’s book Muslim Riasat Jadeed Kaisay Banay had challenged traditional thinking in Islam. Muslims were generally opposed to new knowledge and did not like freedom of expression in this regard. The self-criticism seen in the works of Sir Syed, Allama Iqbal and Dr Fazlur Rehman was no longer in evidence. Religious leaders did not allow any analytical rationalism in discussions. There was a reluctance to express new thoughts because of fear of violence. There was much deductive thinking from the scripture and jurisprudence based on an intellectually debased level by the clergy. Above all, the Muslims were not able to reconcile modern economics to Islam because of their reading of medieval juristic opinion that they treated as final.
Posted by: Fred || 11/20/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  One Ibtisam Elahi Zaheer came up with an interesting theory,: that ordinary innocent Muslims are punished with death by God if the rulers are bad.

Obviously false, or else they would all be dead by now.

Muslims were generally opposed to new knowledge and did not like freedom of expression in this regard.

Tell us something new.

Religious leaders did not allow any analytical rationalism in discussions.

And their point is?

There was a reluctance to express new thoughts because of fear of violence.

Boy howdy, a little synaptic activity can sure cause a ruckus!

Above all, the Muslims were not able to reconcile modern economics to Islam because of their reading of medieval juristic opinion that they treated as final.

Which goes a long way towards explaining why Islam remains stuck in the stone-age. This reminds me very little of Charles H. Duell saying back in 1899 that; "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

Posted by: Zenster || 11/20/2005 2:17 Comments || Top||

#2  No one had opposed the fatwa by another fatwa, therefore the dam could not be built.

Gotta admit it does sound a little like the local EPA/Greenie permiting department.
Posted by: Shipman || 11/20/2005 10:22 Comments || Top||

#3  Godamer! No dam allowed by a 300 to 0 fatwa vote? Actually, it is probably a good thing there. If they built a dam with the engineering knowledge locally available, there would probably be a dam failure and thousands would drown downstream.

Ima votin for no dam in this instance.
Posted by: Al Aska Paul || 11/20/2005 13:19 Comments || Top||



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Two weeks of WOT
Sun 2005-11-20
  Report: Zark killed by explosions in Mosul
Sat 2005-11-19
  Iraqi Kurds may proclaim independence
Fri 2005-11-18
  Zark threatens to cut Jordan King Abdullah's head off
Thu 2005-11-17
  Iran nuclear plant 'resumes work'
Wed 2005-11-16
  French assembly backs emergency measure
Tue 2005-11-15
  Senior Jordian security, religious advisors resign
Mon 2005-11-14
  Jordan boomerette in TV confession
Sun 2005-11-13
  Jordan boomerette misfired
Sat 2005-11-12
  Jordan Authorities interrogate 12 suspects
Fri 2005-11-11
  Izzat Ibrahim croaks?
Thu 2005-11-10
  Azahari's death confirmed
Wed 2005-11-09
  Three hotels boomed in Amman
Tue 2005-11-08
  Oz raids bad boyz, holy man nabbed
Mon 2005-11-07
  Frankenfadeh, Day 11
Sun 2005-11-06
  Radulon Sahiron snagged -- oops, not so

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