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2013-06-30 Europe
EU demands explanation after reports of NSA spying
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Posted by tipper 2013-06-30 08:00|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [552 views ]  Top

#1 EU demands explanation after reports of NSA spying

Get in line.
Posted by Procopius2k 2013-06-30 08:37||   2013-06-30 08:37|| Front Page Top

#2 I feel sorry for any NSA analyst required to read top secret internal EU communications. There are only so many possible variations of "What's for lunch?"

Snark of the day
Posted by Matt 2013-06-30 11:32||   2013-06-30 11:32|| Front Page Top

#3 "I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED to find that there is gambling spying going on here." :Louis Renault in 'Casablanca'. This is what these guys do. They're a lot like lawyers:They'll find work, even if they have to make it up.
The only issue here is that they got caught publicly. There's apt to be more repercusions on this than over the NSA metadata farm in Utah.
Posted by ed in texas 2013-06-30 13:35||   2013-06-30 13:35|| Front Page Top

#4 Sorry, but no, you don't spy on friends.
You don't bug the offices of friends.
You don't watch every communication between friends.

If you regard the EU and EU countries as "target", there will be a price to pay. The price of trust.

Don't tell me that this has anything to do with fighting terror.

Seriously I am not amused, and I really consider myself a true friend of the U.S.

But this is a bridge too far

Posted by European Conservative 2013-06-30 14:05||   2013-06-30 14:05|| Front Page Top

#5 But, but, but Wolfgang Schmidt must be green with envy. :-(
Posted by Besoeker 2013-06-30 14:17||   2013-06-30 14:17|| Front Page Top

#6 Remember, these were the guys who were for Obama.
Posted by Ptah 2013-06-30 14:31||   2013-06-30 14:31|| Front Page Top

#7 "It's for the children".
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2013-06-30 15:13||   2013-06-30 15:13|| Front Page Top

#8 Maybe they're just trying to figure out where all those hundreds of thousands 'untraceable' small donations that came out of Europe for the 2008 Obama election came from. Got to send a 'thank you' note. That's the ticket.
Posted by Procopius2k 2013-06-30 15:30||   2013-06-30 15:30|| Front Page Top

#9 The bottom line is this: to the Intel types who do this, there are only two groups in the world: The people whom they cannot do this to, and everybody else. Group 1 is small and actually 'those who we don't DARE get caught by'. You'll note that the publis generis never enters this consideration. And not merely American; the Brits and French have been at this since before there was a US.
Swowden is, however looking more like a troll every day.
Euro Conserv: You're right. The problem is, these guys don't recognize the concept of 'friends'. Just people they can lean on. Remember the KGB's "if you're innocent you've got nothing to worry about"?
Posted by ed in texas 2013-06-30 15:58||   2013-06-30 15:58|| Front Page Top

#10 "These" people can't do such things without the approval of the President.

As a matter of fact, we all have things to hide. That's why we wear clothes and shut the door when using the wash room.

We are currently negotiating a free trade agreement with the U.S. Of course certain conditions have to be met, it's a give and take. Now we find out that the U.S. places bugs in places where it isn't supposed to (translation: flagrantly breaking the law). This seriously puts negotiations into jeopardy.

It's about trust and these revelations are very damaging.

The NSA has no business to find out where I'm going, whom I'm talking to, whom I'm trading with etc. Simply no business.

We are in a common fight against terror and of course we cooperate. Cooperation needs trust. If you consider us "targets", then it's time to reconsider our relations.

Seriously, this needs to STOP.
Posted by European Conservative 2013-06-30 16:12||   2013-06-30 16:12|| Front Page Top

#11 Le squirrel
Posted by regular joe 2013-06-30 17:53||   2013-06-30 17:53|| Front Page Top

#12 "Sorry, but no, you don't spy on friends."

Sure you do. What if you have learned of a spy cell in your country that is connected somehow to a friendly country and you have the means of collecting some further information in that friendly country on behalf of that friendly government?

What if you are able to learn that a company in a friendly company has been penetrated by a third country and is having their technology stolen?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9803666/Middle-class-German-couple-spied-for-Russia-for-20-years.html

Wonder if we helped with that investigation in any way.
Posted by crosspatch 2013-06-30 18:59||   2013-06-30 18:59|| Front Page Top

#13 That's called cooperation between intelligence services, not spying.

We're not talking about keeping track of terrorist groups in Germany or other European countries, we're talking about blanket spying on all phone and internet activities of all citizens in my country.

This is unacceptable.

And bugging the offices of our highest political representatives is what in diplospeak is called an "unfriendly act"

I am in favor of a free trade agreement with the U.S., but I'd stop all talks until this is sorted out.

This means a full apology of the President and a binding confirmation that this won't happen again.

I would not have trade talk with a business partner who breaks into my computers.

I'm serious folks.
Posted by European Conservative 2013-06-30 19:28||   2013-06-30 19:28|| Front Page Top

#14 Don't hold your breath, EC. this Administration is great at apologizing to our enemies, but when it comes to our friends ... forget about it.
Posted by Glenmore 2013-06-30 20:02||   2013-06-30 20:02|| Front Page Top

#15 There is a reason why Obama had to buy invite his small crowd in Berlin this time.
Posted by European Conservative 2013-06-30 20:08||   2013-06-30 20:08|| Front Page Top

#16 I'm very sorry EC, but you must realize with Tyrant Obama in office, that isn't going to happen. He will stab anyone and everyone in the back to get what he wants or thinks he wants. He has no shame, no sense of honor or decency or any other quality that might come close to qualifying him as a human being. He shits on people and tells them to like it or he'll have our press call them racists and worse.
Posted by Silentbrick - Schlumberger Squishy Mud Division 2013-06-30 20:11||   2013-06-30 20:11|| Front Page Top

#17 When you have the conservative, US friendly German press up in arms that means something.

Oh well but Ms. Rice sees no problems. It's going to be a long three years
Posted by European Conservative 2013-06-30 20:19||   2013-06-30 20:19|| Front Page Top

#18 EC, the NSA is saying "but we prevented 50 terrorist attacks" and we are supposed to believe them? The government never lies ;-|

This is the problem with all this secrecy. With regular courts, the proceeding are open for all to see. We the people can judge the fairness for ourselves. With the Black Courts (e.g. FISA) there is no public oversight. When the NSA is accused of violating FISA, that is the last straw. If true, that is a violation of the US Constitution.

Of course FISA doesn't help you EC. I agree that friends should be treated as friends. That kind of intelligence gathering needs to be focused (coordinated and shared), not shotgunned for "Big data" analysis.
Posted by Tarzan Bucket4506 2013-06-30 21:29||   2013-06-30 21:29|| Front Page Top

#19 I see lots of problems: if we're innocent and Snowden's been spewing a bunch of lies and half-truths, and the stuff he's releasing has been carefully massaged by foreign intelligence groups, well, we can't really _do_ anything about that without wrecking what real intelligence capabilities we have.
Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2013-06-30 21:36||   2013-06-30 21:36|| Front Page Top

#20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYq90TEdxIE

hear past the noise pop and you might hear the end of an American century
Posted by Devilstoenail 2013-06-30 21:47||   2013-06-30 21:47|| Front Page Top

#21 plus your also massively outnumbered and the technological advance the west has may suddenly turn. Not only that the EU advocated for a world currency (very similar to bitcoin) rather then the dollar. Now if world opinion turned so much against you (and were only past a decade in this century) then you would lose more tax revenue then you could dream of - and the US government would owe the world so quickly so big.

While the west is the west it's good, but we cannot turn on each other because as above financially that would be it. Militarily your strength would be nil and the US people would be on the bad end of the line.

On top of this how do you now think the UK people feel about Europe? They love the US and hate Europe, this is bad bad news. A year and a half before an election.

Bad
Posted by Devilstoenail 2013-06-30 21:54||   2013-06-30 21:54|| Front Page Top

#22 Thing From Snowy Mountain,
All the more reason for the Intelligence guys to keep that legal line bright and clear as opposed to depending on secrecy to keep transgressions hidden.

I have an operational definition of good and bad. Good is anything you do that benefits you. Bad is also anything you do that benefits you. Hey, are you trying to hurt yourself? Of course not.

The difference is that bad benefits you right now but leads to your long term determent. Good almost always hurts right now but leads to your long term betterment.

Look at the ten commandments and they fit this definition to a tee. If you look at the US Constitution, the same applies.

Short term expediency, in secret, leads to distrust by the American people. I call that a bad thing.

BTW, my rule of thumb is that if I think that I can survive a good decision, I will take it. The cost of a bad decision is that eventually, you have to make another decision. The fallacy is that, like the man jumping off the building, they always think that there will be that opportunity to make another bad decision.
Posted by Tarzan Bucket4506 2013-06-30 21:54||   2013-06-30 21:54|| Front Page Top

#23 To Tarzan Bucket - yesterdays - or maybe the day before - China lowers interest rates, it will hurt short term but benefit long term.

Why are we still suffering, and maybe in ten years they won't

We all know the right choice, it's just making the right decision
Posted by Devilstoenail 2013-06-30 21:57||   2013-06-30 21:57|| Front Page Top

#24 I meant to add financial times in that -
Posted by Devilstoenail 2013-06-30 21:58||   2013-06-30 21:58|| Front Page Top

#25 Devilstoenail,
The US values its allies and shares a lot of its intelligence with them, and vice versa.
Posted by Tarzan Bucket4506 2013-06-30 22:02||   2013-06-30 22:02|| Front Page Top

#26 Oversight is key in a free democratic state.

I always admired the US Constitution, because in this constitution it's not the government telling people what they can do but the people telling the government what it can do.

And what it friggin' cannot.

This kind of secrecy leads to abuse of power and tyranny.
Posted by European Conservative 2013-06-30 22:04||   2013-06-30 22:04|| Front Page Top

#27 Devilstoenail,
China, being a dictatorship, suffers from severe handicaps. In a war game, economic or shooting, I wouldn't want to trade places.

“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.” ~Winston Churchill.

We are still exhausting all the bad possibilities. :-(
Posted by Tarzan Bucket4506 2013-06-30 22:07||   2013-06-30 22:07|| Front Page Top

#28 touche Tarzan,

but it's not up to me or the one liners that prove otherwise.

Those guys at the top will battle it out, and things like this will be turning points.

Posted by Devilstoenail 2013-06-30 22:15||   2013-06-30 22:15|| Front Page Top

#29 EC, I'm reading this and it sounds like you're saying "All the more reason for you to CONFESS!"
Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2013-06-30 22:16||   2013-06-30 22:16|| Front Page Top

#30 Sounds like more distrust Snowy Mountain?
Posted by Devilstoenail 2013-06-30 22:19||   2013-06-30 22:19|| Front Page Top

#31 Middlemen 'If I've learned one thing, it's that business is a lot like sex. Getting in is easy, pulling out is hard.

Posted by Devilstoenail 2013-06-30 22:21||   2013-06-30 22:21|| Front Page Top

#32 The question is very simple:

Does the people control its intelligence services or do the intelligence services control the people.

I come from a country that knows a lot about the second option. You don't want to try it out.
Posted by European Conservative 2013-06-30 22:28||   2013-06-30 22:28|| Front Page Top

#33 I can answer that one EC, but it's not the answer we wish it were.
Posted by Besoeker 2013-06-30 22:38||   2013-06-30 22:38|| Front Page Top

#34 Sorry for breaking in.... I was just enjoying some Raul Malo and caught your post. Back to Malo now.
Posted by Besoeker 2013-06-30 22:41||   2013-06-30 22:41|| Front Page Top

#35 Funny you should mention past abuses by Germany. It's one of the reasons I'm actually reluctant to engage in the sorts of public disclosures that would essentially amount to intelligence disarmament. We did that in the aftermath of WW1 and it didn't work out that well. I think the catchphrase used then was "Gentlemen do not read each others' mail."
Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2013-06-30 23:11||   2013-06-30 23:11|| Front Page Top

#36 We're on the horns of a dilemma, IMHO. I don't feel particularly trustful of the current administration. I also don't feel particularly trustful of people like your government who basically shut down _their_ energy infrastructure in favor of Gazprom. Finally, I think we have real problems with both foreign-government-sponsored-groups that not only support random violence in the form of terrorism, but are attempting nuclear proliferation.
Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2013-06-30 23:16||   2013-06-30 23:16|| Front Page Top

23:16 Thing From Snowy Mountain
23:11 Thing From Snowy Mountain
23:09 European Conservative
23:04 JosephMendiola
22:41 Besoeker
22:38 Besoeker
22:35 JosephMendiola
22:28 European Conservative
22:22 JohnQC
22:21 Devilstoenail
22:19 Devilstoenail
22:16 Thing From Snowy Mountain
22:15 Devilstoenail
22:07 Tarzan Bucket4506
22:04 European Conservative
22:02 Tarzan Bucket4506
21:58 Devilstoenail
21:57 Devilstoenail
21:54 Tarzan Bucket4506
21:54 Devilstoenail
21:47 Devilstoenail
21:36 Thing From Snowy Mountain
21:29 Tarzan Bucket4506
20:19 European Conservative

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