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2006-10-20 Science & Technology
Troubling Bacteria Found In Meat
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Posted by anonymous5089 2006-10-20 05:20|| || Front Page|| [7 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 This is likely the result of millions in the West taking antibiotics every time they get the sniffles for the past forty or so years.

Two years ago I overheard two young mommies at the local food store talking about how to trick the pediatrician into prescribing antibiotics for one of their children when he had a cold. "Just tell his receptionist over the phone that the phlegm is green", said one to the other, "even if it isn't. Then they'll give it to you."

Anecdotal, yes, but there are a lot of people out there who take an antibiotic every time they feel a little under the weather. There's lots of people out there whose attitude is, "Well I'm sick, I have to do SOMETHING!" Since more that 99% of colds are caused by some virus, and not bacteria (and even most bacterial colds go away in 7-10 days without antibiotics), giving an antibiotic to these patients accomplishes exactly nothing in terms of therapeutic benefits and harms the patient by exposing them to risk of bacterial resistance.

Message to 'burgers (and everyone else): taking an antibiotic won't make you feel better with that miserable head cold, but it could kill you in the end. Try and get some rest, take OTC cold meds to treat the symptoms, and/or just suck it up and deal. It'll go away in a week or so.

It would be shame if the era of antibiotics came to an end because a bunch of wimps who were too fragile and wimpy to put up with a little suffering misused them.
Posted by no mo uro 2006-10-20 06:37||   2006-10-20 06:37|| Front Page Top

#2 There's no selective pressure to maintain resistance to an unused drug, so I wouldn't be surprised if older, unused drugs are suddenly useful again.
Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford  2006-10-20 07:44|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-10-20 07:44|| Front Page Top

#3 We MUST stop using Antibiotics as a routine addition to farm animals food.

Although it sounds like it isn't this is still firmly in line with my libertarian principles. This is because the widespread over-use of antibiotics has external effects.
Posted by Bright Pebbles in Blairistan 2006-10-20 08:33||   2006-10-20 08:33|| Front Page Top

#4 I never met a bacteria that didn't taste delicious.
Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader  2006-10-20 09:42||   2006-10-20 09:42|| Front Page Top

#5 What we need to do is allow the irradiation of beff and other natural products.

Its kills ALL the bacteria, and is harmless to health -- and the nutter scares about radiation have been completely disproven.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-20 09:54||   2006-10-20 09:54|| Front Page Top

#6 I misworded that: not "allow" - we should *mandate* that all foods be irradiated for sterility.

Almost all your spices are already.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-20 09:55||   2006-10-20 09:55|| Front Page Top

#7 Yogurt or in my case Soy Yogurt every once in awhile will push any bad stuff out of your gut and replace it with good bacteria.

Posted by 3dc 2006-10-20 10:02||   2006-10-20 10:02|| Front Page Top

#8 Healthy folks can have C-dif and do have C-dif in the gut. Normally the other fauna/bacteria in the gut keeps C-dif in check but if C-dif happens to take off for whatever reason and you get a raging case of it, consider your ass p0wned!!

have fun NOT! ;-)
Posted by RD 2006-10-20 10:10||   2006-10-20 10:10|| Front Page Top

#9 I hear the voice of experience RD. How long did the IV follow you around?
Posted by Shipman 2006-10-20 10:49||   2006-10-20 10:49|| Front Page Top

#10 Irradiation is not even "radiation" i.e. electromagnetic radiation.

It's a electron beam.

Posted by Bright Pebbles in Blairistan 2006-10-20 11:54||   2006-10-20 11:54|| Front Page Top

#11 Bright Pebbles: wrt "radiation." Fermilab makes us take this dull course every couple of years. (PDF handout) Definitions start on p4.
Posted by James">James  2006-10-20 14:15|| http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]">[http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]  2006-10-20 14:15|| Front Page Top

#12 Bright Pebbles: wrt "radiation." Fermilab makes us take this dull course every couple of years. (PDF handout) Definitions start on p4.

LBNL makes us do the same thing (along with fire safety, wmd, and other "refresher" courses). The easiest one is probably the 30-minute video and open book test required for access to the ALS (Advanced Light Source) though GERT (General Employee Radiation Training) is also pretty easy.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg  2006-10-20 15:20|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com]  2006-10-20 15:20|| Front Page Top

#13 BTW, I really haven't been sick in almost 3 years - ever since I started working at LBNL. When I first started I was just getting the flu, but it went away completely after a single day.

My othr co-workers get sick frequently enough that I've come to believe that working outside, for the most part, and coming into contact with hundreds of other people every day has actually strengthened my immune system. There was a study done awhile back that showed that kids who played outside or in the dirt got sick less often than kids who spent most of their time indoors playing video games.

Even my asthma has improved significantly.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg  2006-10-20 15:23|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com]  2006-10-20 15:23|| Front Page Top

#14 There was a study done awhile back that showed that kids who played outside or in the dirt got sick less often than kids who spent most of their time indoors playing video games.

Here's a lengthy excerpt from an article entitled "Germs of Endearment", published in Science News back in 1999:

While raising barricades against deadly scourges, however, the industrialized world has also shielded people from the microbes and parasites that do no harm. Does it matter?

A growing number of scientists now suspect that stamping out these innocuous organisms is weakening some parts of children's immune systems, allowing other parts to grow unchecked. Such an imbalance, they theorize, triggers a host of illnesses, including asthma, allergies, and even such autoimmune diseases as rheumatoid arthritis and the most severe type of diabetes.

This notion, called the hygiene hypothesis, arose from scientists' inability to explain the rising prevalence of asthma and allergies in many developed nations. The National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute estimates that in the United States, for example, the incidence of asthma is now 1.75 times what it was in 1980, and for children less than 4 years old, 2.60 times the earlier incidence. Pollution and allergens—such as mold and pollen—can take some of the blame, but not all of it. "One needs an explanation" for these trends, says Graham A.W. Rook of the University College London Medical School, who is one of the chief advocates of the hygiene hypothesis. "People should be getting healthier, not less healthy.

"For several years, investigators have been uncovering signs that illness can result when the immune system lacks practice fighting bacteria and viruses. This evidence, however, has been circumstantial and too sparse to convince most scientists. "It's greeted with some skepticism, and quite rightly, because we need more evidence," says Richard Beasley of the University of Otago's Wellington (New Zealand) School of Medicine. "In many respects, it's still early days, but the evidence is starting to build.

"Recently, several epidemiological and experimental studies have converged to put the hygiene hypothesis on firmer ground. Some researchers are already trying to create vaccines that mimic potentially crucial immune effects of the microbes that society has banished. According to the hygiene hypothesis, the immune system is like a set of scales that sometimes tips sharply enough to send a person's health tumbling. One arm of the immune system deploys specialized white blood cells, called Th1 lymphocytes, that direct an assault on infected cells throughout the body. Counterbalancing this, another arm of the immune system tries to hit the intruders even earlier. It produces antibodies that block dangerous microbes from invading the body's cells in the first place. This latter strategy exploits a different variety of white blood cells, called Th2 lymphocytes. The Th2 system also happens to drive allergic responses to foreign organisms.

At birth, an infant's immune system appears to rely primarily on the Th2 system. According to the hygiene hypothesis, the Th1 system can grow stronger only if it gets exercise, either through fighting infections or through encounters with certain harmless microbes. Without such stimulation—and ordinary colds and flu don't seem to do the trick—the Th2 system flourishes and the immune system teeters toward allergic responses.


Early support for this view came from Julian M. Hopkin, now at the University of Wales Swansea, and his colleagues. In 1997, they reported on a study of 867 Japanese children given a vaccine against tuberculosis. Those who showed a strong Th1 response—indicating previous exposure to the bacterium that causes the disease—had far fewer allergies and asthma than did those who didn't show a Th1 response. Furthermore, among the children who had allergies, some showed a decrease in allergy symptoms after receiving the vaccine. The ones with a strong Th1 response to the tuberculosis vaccine were six to nine times as likely to benefit as were children who did not have such a response. In the past, some scientists speculated that the Th1 system required periodic infections, particularly in childhood, in order to develop properly, but most researchers now dispute that idea.

Rook argues that the main problem may be that kids have become too squeaky clean. He suspects that children need contact not with disease-causing agents but with innocuous microbes in soil and untreated water—particularly organisms called mycobacteria—to give the Th1 system enough of a workout. "The [lymphocytes] have got to be kind of marinated in this stuff in the early years of life," he says. If they aren't, he says, the Th2 system grows ever stronger, priming the immune system to overreact to allergens. Mycobacteria (red) found in dirt and untreated water may help people cultivate a well-balanced immune system. (Hopkin)

Recent epidemiological research has further hinted that the cleanest environments may be the best breeding grounds for allergies and asthma. In the January Journal of Clinical and Experimental Allergy, Swiss researchers reported that hay fever was less common for farm children than for urban children or for rural children who didn't live on farms. Several years ago, scientists found that children in large families—particularly the younger siblings of brothers—had fewer allergies than children in small families did. Researchers speculated that exposure to the germs brought home by older siblings protected the younger children from allergies. Bolstering that idea, a study in the Feb. 6 Lancet found that children from small families who entered day care before age 1 were less likely to develop allergies than those who entered day care later. No such difference emerged for children from larger families, suggesting that early day care may have stood in for the protection provided by dirty older siblings.


I will certainly vouch for much of the above based strictly on personal experience. I have lived with "clean-freaks" who routinelty caught every bug that went around while I was laid low maybe once or twice a year.

I purposefully innoculate myself by eating food that I have stored for extended periods. It saves me money and my gut is exceptionally resistant to bacteria. I just finished eating some frozen ground sausage that had been in my freezer for some two years. I've eaten tortillas that were well over 30 days old and refrigerated items some two months old.

I would estimate that I get a mild case of food poisoning once every three to five years from this practice. I know that my immune system benefits from it and I have perfect attendance workplace bonuses to back this up. I'll also add that having household pets is a marvellous way of gaining limited microbal exposure.

As a food service operations manager, I would NEVER extend this practice to into my professional capacity, nor do I EVER feed my household guests any such thing. However, I can cheerfully estimate that over my lifetime I have saved many thousands of dollars and enjoyed remarkably good health to boot.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-10-20 18:02||   2006-10-20 18:02|| Front Page Top

#15 Zen, your post remindes me of something:

Weastly = Zenster

Westley: Really? In that case I challenge you to a battle of wits.

Vincini: For the princess? To the Death? again> I accept!

Westley: Good. Then pour the wine. cylinder> Inhale this, but do not touch.

Vincini: I smell nothing.

Westley: What you do not smell is called Iocane powder. It is
odorless, tasteless, dissolves instantly in liquid, and is among the
more deadly poisons known to man.

Vincini: Hmm!

glasses again> Westley: Alright, where is the poison? The Battle of
Wits has begun. Its ends when you decide and we both drink and find
out who is right, and who is dead.

Vincini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I
know of you: Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into
his own goblet or his enemies? Now, a clever man would put the poison
into his own goblet because he would know that only a great fool would
reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool so I can clearly
not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was
not a great fool--you would have counted on it--so I can clearly not
choose the wine in front of me!
Posted by bombay">bombay  2006-10-20 18:12||   2006-10-20 18:12|| Front Page Top

#16 Interesting bit about mycobacteria. Plantsmen and forest biologists have long known about the well-documented beneficial effect of these on plants - without exposure to these mycobacteria, trees do not absorb nutrients well and are less resistant to fungi and other diseases.

Perhaps this paradigm extends to animals, as well.

Don't know about the old tacos, though. Toilet porcelain is difficult to repair.
Posted by no mo uro 2006-10-20 18:22||   2006-10-20 18:22|| Front Page Top

#17 I purposefully innoculate myself by eating food that I have stored for extended periods. It saves me money and my gut is exceptionally resistant to bacteria. I just finished eating some frozen ground sausage that had been in my freezer for some two years. I've eaten tortillas that were well over 30 days old and refrigerated items some two months old.

LOL You'd like Mt wife's cooking then, or at least you'd survive it.
We let our daughter get pretty sloppy and she is remarkably healthy.
Me... I was born with bad guts and havve spent too much time in hospitals to be cavalier.
This makes some tender moments at the finner table when Iinquire as to the age or provenance of certain items.
Posted by J.D. Lux 2006-10-20 18:37||   2006-10-20 18:37|| Front Page Top

#18 RC, a good point about older drugs,

Note this is a spore forming bacteria. They lay dormant for very long periods and therefore the usual kind of loss of resistance path is suspect.
Posted by bombay">bombay  2006-10-20 19:15||   2006-10-20 19:15|| Front Page Top

#19 Don't know about the old tacos, though.

Not tacos, no mo uro, tortillas. They are an unleavened Mexican flat bread. In testimony to the extreme cleanliness of where they are produced, I have had packages of them well over a month old that do not show the slightest hint of mold or discoloration. The only disadvantage is that they do not fluff up as much when heated due to moisture loss.

I do have a batch of taco meat that is over two weeks old. I ate some last night and it was fine. The heavy load of spices and salt, plus being "canned" helps. I save glass jars, load the freshly cooked food into them, preferrably right to the top, and then press down on the lid as I screw it shut. With meats, I try to leave a nice layer of fat on top so that it creates a congealed barrier between any trapped atmosphere and the actual food. Once the contents cool, they usually pull a slight barometric vacuum and the lid dimples down. This gives me a firm indicator of any bacterial activity as there will usually be gases generated that compromise the lid's pull-down.

For safety's sake, I also run my refrigerator at nearly its lowest temperature setting. This is a critical part of my extended storage program. I pay some forty extra dollars per year in electricity and my produce suffers occasionally, but the storage duration of my cooked foods is tremendous. Whole cuts of meat stored near the freezer show no signs of off-flavor after nearly an entire week. Dairy products last several extra days and so do juices, cheese or eggs. This allows me to shop less frequently, consume less time, use less petrol, take better advantage of sales and distribute key ingredients across several different dishes.

The result is not just increased savings but better variety and the ability to afford slightly higher quality cuts of meat without busting the budget.

And in reference to the initial post by no mo uro, I agree and assiduously avoid taking antibiotics if I do not absolutely have to. I firmly believe that their overuse in animal husbandry has resulted in a significant increase of drug resistant bacterial strains and possible health complications for humans as well. Western society is one of the most drastically overmedicated cultures in all history.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-10-20 19:30||   2006-10-20 19:30|| Front Page Top

#20 Zen, you have to be careful of cold as an assurance. I've learnt that lesson thanks to my buddy Pseudomonas Fluorescens - back in the Biochem lab days. Such a cool bug!
Posted by bombay">bombay  2006-10-20 19:44||   2006-10-20 19:44|| Front Page Top

#21 One of the problems with antibiotics is that newer ones are often chemical modifications of the old ones. So the bugs whose DNA is constantly being modified by the latest up-to-date antibiotic are still also pressured by the old chemistry still present in the new antibiotic. Off hand, can't think of old antibiotics that have recovered much utility against specific bugs once initial efficacy has worn off.
Second the comment about yogurt. Should be active cultures present, the kind you can use to make more yogurt with. I have recommended my patients eat a few days worth of this yogurt after coming off a course of antibiotics to prevent diarrhea afterward. Those who develop diarrhea while taking antibiotics I generally tell to stop the antibiotic right away & start on yogurt. Has worked like a charm so far. Haven't had patients with C. Difficile.
Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2006-10-20 19:49||   2006-10-20 19:49|| Front Page Top

#22 Sorry about confusing tacos and tortillas - I was reading too fast.

The bit about storing meat under congealed fat in a cool place certainly makes sense. Dry cured sausages are kept this way in several cultures - chourizo and some types of sopressata come to mind.

A couple of years back I picked up one of those vacuum lock machines, which takes your dimpled lid concept to the next level, and I can heartily recommend them for everything except leavned baked goods. I routinely keep venison or beef in the freezer (set at the lowest setting as you suggest) for over a year with literally no change in flavor. (Incidentally, for those hunters out there, don't bother cutting your venison into steaks, and don't bother hanging your deer too long. After the animal rigors up and then relaxes, cut it up into chunks that will weigh enough to feed however many people at a sitting you desire, and vacloc those chunks. Then take a piece out 3-4 days ahead of the time you plan on eating it and put it in the fridge on a plate uncovered until you cook it. It'll do its aging then and you can either cook it in one piece or cut it into steaks at that time.)

Fish doesn't quite go that long but many times longer than simply wrapped or in zipperlock bags.

Overall sounds like a good plan, Zenster.
Posted by no mo uro 2006-10-20 19:56||   2006-10-20 19:56|| Front Page Top

#23 The other problem with Antibiotics, and it is a simple fact, we our outclassed and out gunned.

Bacteria love to swap DNA and they love to divide. We simply can't hang.
Posted by bombay">bombay  2006-10-20 20:04||   2006-10-20 20:04|| Front Page Top

#24 Zen, you have to be careful of cold as an assurance.

Agreed, that's why I try to get the vacuum pull-down on the storage jars. I also have a very good nose and eye for significant shifts in aroma or appearance. Any bubbling type activity is a dead giveaway. Plus, I always have the option of simply throwing the stuff out.

no mo uro, you might be amazed at the perfromance specs of those food vacuum storage units. I once worked for the leader in that field (their name rhymes with "cillia"). Their product was essentially an aquarium pump with a high school diploma plus some bells and whistles. I worked with a fine engineer who desperately attempted to ensure that their product specifications actually met the advertised claims. Need I mention how unpopular he was?

We measured the actual vacuum pull-down and it was the equivalent of driving your food to Denver, Colorado. Namely, the pressure reduction equated to that encountered at a one mile elevation. The net result is that if the only thing you are doing is cutting up and storing large quantities of cheese, all's well.

Ground meats performed poorly due to entrapped air. You'll notice how the bags have that special "quilted" texture. That is specifically for allowing trapped air to exit past the food's smooth surfaces. Trust me, all the money is made on the bags, even though the machine markups are breathtakingly astronomical.

For immediate bag-and-freeze operations, you are using the system in its most optimal mode. You are spot on in performing any "dry aging" of meats post-thaw. Any bacterial growth is minimized by the refrigerated environment and, if well covered, the odds of exposure to other contaminating sources is negligible.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-10-20 20:39||   2006-10-20 20:39|| Front Page Top

#25 Yo, antibiotics. Due to very poor veinous circulation in my legs, about every 3 months I develop skin ulcers on my ankles that take months to heal. It really sucks. The Docs usually put me on Cipro for about a 2 week regimen. After day two of that, I feel so bad on so many levels, that I want to kiss the .357 I then beg the Docs to put me on Rocefin I.V. So clean and powerful. What a relief. Cipro is nasty.
Posted by Asymmetrical Triangulation 2006-10-20 22:29||   2006-10-20 22:29|| Front Page Top

#26 I'm going to start having a helping of dirt with every meal from now on.
Posted by gorb 2006-10-20 22:50||   2006-10-20 22:50|| Front Page Top

#27 I'm going to start having a helping of dirt with every meal from now on.

LOL gorb! bon appetite

flashback: careful when eating dirt as the cat might have made a contribution.
Posted by RD 2006-10-20 23:08||   2006-10-20 23:08|| Front Page Top

13:56 Anonymoose
23:56 Zenster
23:53 Zenster
23:53 Old Patriot
23:52 3dc
23:46 3dc
23:30 JosephMendiola
23:26 twobyfour
23:20 JosephMendiola
23:18 NoBeards
23:13 3dc
23:10 mrp
23:08 RD
23:05 Chinter Flarong
23:04 3dc
22:59 RD
22:50 gorb
22:47 RD
22:44 Old Patriot
22:30 Old Patriot
22:29 Asymmetrical Triangulation
22:26 Kalle (kafir forever)
22:22 3dc
22:20 Gen. G. S. Patton (Ret)









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