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2005-11-20 Home Front: Culture Wars

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described (by disaffected CIA)

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Posted by Frank G 2005-11-20 00:00|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Here's my question:

Do we really need every golden throat crawling up the ass of every CIA field officer whenever a terrorist breaks a nail?

Posted by badanov 2005-11-20 00:29|| http://www.freefirezone.org/firststrike.html]">[http://www.freefirezone.org/firststrike.html] 2005-11-20 00:29|| Front Page Top

#2 If these brutes were yanking fingernails off of burglers to get their fences' names, I'd have a real big problem.

Instead, we are dealing with cretins who are out to kill scores of people at a time. Time is of the essence and every minute saved can save a human life (or ten). If these sick f&%ks want to engage in the slaughter of innocent people they had better be ready to take singing lessons when they get inside.

NOTE: For anyone who wants to preach to me about "do unto others ...":

If I was caught in the commission of a terrorist act, I'd expect nothing less than the most brutal treatment possible from my captors.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-20 00:46|| 2005-11-20 00:46|| Front Page Top

#3 If I was a CIA agent revealing info damaging to my country - I'd expect the same

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-11-20 00:58|| 2005-11-20 00:58|| Front Page Top

#4 lol.
making them stand and listen to Eminem which made them frantic?
Torture?
I love it

Posted by Jan 2005-11-20 01:02|| 2005-11-20 01:02|| Front Page Top

#5 1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

..heck i do this almost everyday with my oldest.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

..it's a good technique, sure straightens out my ~~suckutary~~ secretary anyway.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

...yea, the medical bills can be a bitch.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

..sure works with the mother inlaw.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

..sounds like my last fishing trip in the lower peninsula.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

BFD, me and the wifey *do* this every friday nite.

Posted by Ruff 2005-11-20 03:08|| 2005-11-20 03:08|| Front Page Top

#6 I'm not keen on the cold room, which can lead to bronchitis/pneumonia in succeptible subjects, but otherwise... when my then-teenaged mother was running messages for the Dutch Underground in WWII, she would have been shot if caught, and quite possibly tortured first to reveal those hiding her and other Jews.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-11-20 05:03|| 2005-11-20 05:03|| Front Page Top

#7 That's totally, cool, TW. I had a great great etc. female ancestor who ran messages for the Americans against the British.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-20 06:10|| 2005-11-20 06:10|| Front Page Top

#8 Hmmm...sorry...didn't meant to try and cash in on the extraordinary bravery of your mother through claims to some distant ancestor... just thought it an interesting side note :-)

Posted by 2b 2005-11-20 06:14|| 2005-11-20 06:14|| Front Page Top

#9 The Islamofascists have yet to hit us with their worst. When they do, lifeboat ethics might change the way we do things.

Posted by CaziFarkus 2005-11-20 06:21|| 2005-11-20 06:21|| Front Page Top

#10 CF,

You're right. It will probably take at least one, and possibly several, attacks of the same order as 9-11 to get most people to wake up again. Some people, particularly those on the left, will have a major decision to make. Some of them will decide to aid and abet the enemy openly, as opposed to the plausibly deniable help they now render.

Posted by mac 2005-11-20 06:45|| 2005-11-20 06:45|| Front Page Top

#11 I don't believe this "confession" for a minute, for the simple reason that the CIA has been doing research on these technologies since at least the early 1970s.

Think of all the pharmaceuticals alone that anyone could use: addictives, hallucinogens, endorphine blockers, hormones, neuro-chemicals, and god knows what else.

Maybe a dozen different chip implants: drug dispensers, microphones, transceivers, explosives, etc.

We can re-program these cruds with drug-induced hypnosis and turn them into assassins or traitors, even without them being aware of it. A pound or two of advanced plastic explosives implanted in their abdomen could bring down a large building.

There really is no limit to what we can technologically do--so why the insistence on using techniques of World War II vintage?

Unless your intent is disinformation.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-11-20 09:58|| 2005-11-20 09:58|| Front Page Top

#12 2b, you are being uebersubtle -- I'm not trying to cash in on my mother's youthful adventures either, except inasmuch as my own life has been fairly uneventful, with so few useful episodes to add to the discussion, especially in comparison to so many here (and in some cases those "here" are off adventuring in exotic areas of the globe, or in exotic areas of America, at least as compared to the outer suburbs of Cincinnati, Ohio). I think its appropriate that you know of a female ancestor who was actively involved in our Revolution -- especially as so many women at the time were apolitically concerned exclusively with home and family. Clearly you've inherited her political interest, despite the distance in generations!

Posted by trailing wife 2005-11-20 10:19|| 2005-11-20 10:19|| Front Page Top

#13 Think of all the pharmaceuticals alone that anyone could use: addictives, hallucinogens, endorphine blockers, hormones, neuro-chemicals, and god knows what else.

Yeah!

Posted by abu Half 2005-11-20 10:27|| 2005-11-20 10:27|| Front Page Top

#14 I don't have any qualms against using torture even for revenge, but I found a good article on using a trytophan free diet to get the bastards to talk:

from http://www.tothepointnews.com (pay site with some free articles)

HOW TO GET A TERRORIST TO SING LIKE A CANARY WITHOUT TORTURE Print E-mail
Written by Dr. Jack Wheeler
Thursday, 06 January 2005
It is such a repulsive sight to watch showboating Senators harangue Alberto Gonzales regarding torturing terrorists. I would love to see Pat Leahy or Ted Kennedy in a street fight. Their life would depend on their willingness to use any and all means necessary to survive. Then, if they did, we would need one of their liberal colleagues condemn them: âYou had no right to save yourself by not fighting fair!â

The only practical argument against torturing terrorists is that itâs so undependable: the guy will say anything to stop the torture. Often, a dramatic presentation of the threat of torture works better. Take the Israeli way:

When a Palestinian terrorist is captured, how many Israeli lives can be saved depends on how quickly and efficiently Shin Bet (Israeli Security) agents can make him squeal. They strip him naked and sit him in a chair with his legs forced apart. They bring in a large Doberman pincher whose muzzle is placed inches from his genitals. They explain: âThis is Herman. Herman is a very unusual dog. Herman can smell when someone is lying. When someone lies, it gets Herman very mad. And when Herman gets mad, he bites - really hard. So we suggest you tell us the truth.â

Works like a charm.

There is, however, an interrogation method far more effective than torture, or the threat of it, that is foolproof, immediate, and humane. It works the first time, every time, with everybody -- no exceptions. Yet it is harmless, completely reversible, with no aftereffects.

First, a little background in brain chemistry. Your brain synthesizes, or manufactures, natural brain chemicals called neurotransmitters, which are necessary for the proper functioning of various activities. Neurotransmitters are chemical messengers which transmit the appropriate signals through brain circuits for thinking, feeling, and motor action. One such neurotransmitter is called serotonin. Serotonin is an "inhibitory" neurotransmitter, and its constant presence is absolutely required for a normal and non-psychotic state of mind.

Neurotransmitters are synthesized in the cell bodies of the neurons in the brain from specific nutrients in one's diet. Norepinephrine, for example, responsible for alertness and mental energy, is synthesized from the amino acid phenylalanine and a number of additional co-factors. Caffeine works by stimulating the release and prolonging the activity of norepinephrine.

The neurotransmitter serotonin is synthesized from the amino acid tryptophan. Without tryptophan, the brain cannot make serotonin. This mechanism applies not only to the human brain, but to the brain of every species in the animal kingdom, from dogs to rats to elephants to birds.

There have been numerous experiments that demonstrate the effects of a tryptophan-free diet on brain function in humans. Within about four hours, brain serotonin levels drop like a rock. Lacking the inhibitory regulation of serotonin, the brain becomes incapable of modulation. The individual possessor of such a brain rapidly becomes angry, depressed, and impulsive -- incapable of controlling his emotions.

The last thing a captured terrorist, intent on withholding information and resistant to interrogation, wants is to be uncontrollably impulsive. Such an individual would be putty in the hands of a skilled interrogator.

The means of converting a terrorist into putty is TFM Interrogation, using tryptophan-free meals (TFMs). Not protein-free meals. Meals engineered to have only tryptophan excluded, and all other essential amino acids present. Protein is, of course, a package or assemblage of various combinations of amino acids.

With a protein-free meal, blood amino levels will drop, causing the liver and other organs to start extracting aminos from blood albumin, then from muscle, then from organ tissue. Such amino extraction will include tryptophan. In other words, deprived of dietary protein, the body will cannibalize itself in order to supply the brain with tryptophan and other vital aminos.

But a meal engineered to provide all necessary aminos except tryptophan exclusively will not cause such cannibalization. The liver has no capacity to notice the lack of one single amino such as tryptophan, just the overall lack of entire assemblies of aminos, or protein.

A TFM is a semi-synthetic meal replacement, prepared in the form of a porridge, for example. It can contain plenty of real starch, plenty of real fat, plenty of real sugar or honey -- plenty of real chocolate if desired. What it cannot contain is any complex protein at all. Instead, it must contain about 30 grams of a synthetic mixture of all essential aminos in crystalline form -- specifically excluding tryptophan. Further, such a mixture should contain the same ratio of aminos as milk or meat, but with an extra amount of the aminos phenylalanine and tyrosine, which will both block any tryptophan extracted from the body reaching the brain, and increase the subject's levels of anxiety and anger.

Three such TFMs should be given to the subject over 12 hours, with the subject not having anything to eat prior to the first TFM for several hours. After four hours, the subject will become agitated, depressed, angry, and impulsive. He obviously must be heavily guarded and possibly restrained. Over the next eight to twelve hours, his symptoms will increase, becoming suicidal. Subjected to a TFM diet over a period of several days, he will become fully psychotic.

After a round of interrogation during a TFM period, the subject should then receive a normal meal with complex protein -- or simply the TFM with one or two grams of crystalline tryptophan added (it's tasteless so he won't notice any difference). He will calm down and feel pleasant. Then a "good cop" interrogator can step in and soothe him. Next meal time, it's back to the TFM, and back the subject goes into uncontrollable impulsiveness. The subject will quickly develop a real fear of the "bad cop" interrogator who interrogates him during the TFM periods.

There are no side or after-effects of TFM Interrogation. It is completely reversible immediately within an hour or less after one regular non-TFM meal. TFM Interrogation can be performed in the field, at Gitmo, anywhere. Red Cross observers or even Pat Leahy could be present. They could even analyze the subject's blood -- for whatever they test for, they wouldnât think of testing for a lack of tryptophan. And even if they did, what would be the complaint? Malnutrition? Malnutrition that lasts for less than 24 hours?

TFM Interrogation is an ultimate form of interrogation - soon to be utilized by the Pentagon to protect America from the bad guys.

Posted by Eric 2005-11-20 10:51|| 2005-11-20 10:51|| Front Page Top

#15 hey Eric, don't give away all the secrets

TW, "my own life has been fairly uneventful"; It's what is in your heart and mind, knowing that you would act if called upon. I love hearing about great deeds by ancesters, it's what makes us what we are.

Posted by Jan 2005-11-20 11:58|| 2005-11-20 11:58|| Front Page Top

#16 http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/1632233

AMY GOODMAN: Were you having discussions with other interrogators?

TONY LAGOURANIS: Sure. We all talked about it. I discussed this with my team leader all the time. The people I was working with all the time. You know part of the problem back then too, is that I was still under the impression that we were getting prisoners who had intel -- who had intel to give us, and you know, I still thought that these were bad guys.

I was believing the intelligence reports that came in with the prisoner. I believed the detainee units, but later it became clear to me that they weren't -- they were picking up just farmers, you know, like these guys were totally innocent and that's why we weren't getting intel. And it just made what we were doing, like, seem even more cruel.

I wonder how long you people are gonna keep up the pretense to yourselves that these "interrogation techniques" are only used against "bad guys".

I still remember the time when you people were keeping up the pretense to be against torture -- that was ofcourse when you were still trying to deny the fact that it was taking place.

From a dispute concerning the facts, you people have now fallen/collapsed/retreated to a Clintonian dispute about definitions. Waterboarding's not really torture anymore, is it?

And what's the definition of "is" again?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-11-20 12:15|| 2005-11-20 12:15|| Front Page Top

#17 eric,
My wife is in the Psych field. She says long term it will damage them and she dosen't want anything to do with rehabbing anybody who experienced this.

Posted by 3dc 2005-11-20 12:18|| 2005-11-20 12:18|| Front Page Top

#18 Think of all the pharmaceuticals alone that anyone could use: addictives, hallucinogens, endorphine blockers, hormones, neuro-chemicals, and god knows what else.

Hey! Leave Joe out of this!

Extremely interesting article, Eric.

After four hours, the subject will become agitated, depressed, angry, and impulsive. He obviously must be heavily guarded and possibly restrained. Over the next eight to twelve hours, his symptoms will increase, becoming suicidal.

Maybe the imams are already using this technique.

Aris, don't think I'm too happy about this turn of events. I'll ask how you would feel if some al Qaeda goon blew apart the Parthenon while it was crowded with tourists. Like Bali, think of the catastrophic drop in Greek tourism. Your country would lose, not only a priceless historical monument but untold millions, if not billions, in revenue. Now, imagine the attacks continuing.

Are you telling me that you would maintain the moral high-ground and keep letting innocent people die for the sake of leaving murderous thugs unruffled? Like I opened with; These are not cat burglers, they are mass murderers. Time is of the essence when dealing with these maggots. If the TFM dietary method works so well, use it. But whatever it takes, the message to all terrorists must be that apprehension will result in extreme discomfort and possibly permanent damage or death.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-20 12:28|| 2005-11-20 12:28|| Front Page Top

#19 You know those military types, Zen, they're all fascists! Lol. "you people", LOL.

Somebody doesn't have enough ~~potatos~~ grapes to peel, lol.

Posted by .com 2005-11-20 12:45|| 2005-11-20 12:45|| Front Page Top

#20 You know those military types, Zen, they're all fascists!

Yeah, .com, especially us Merkins. Think of all the territory we captured during WWII that we refused to relinquish. Oh wait, that's right, America only retained an insignificant fraction of land captured during that costly and bloody war which we did not start. Yeah, we're fascists all right, sending out massive foreign aid, even to Iran and North Korea.

I'm waiting for your reply, Aris. You have always kept your discourse civil and I look forward to how you would deal with al Qaeda blasting the Parthenon and Acropolis to smithereens during the crowded summer season. Remember what mullah Omar said about the Afghan Buddhas; "We are only breaking stones." Your country's entire tourist base relies upon "stones", however beautifully piled up they might be. Do you think al Qaeda would have the least compunctions about sledge-hammering them into powder?

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-20 13:01|| 2005-11-20 13:01|| Front Page Top

#21 "You People" is still preferable to his execrable use of "y'all"

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-11-20 13:25|| 2005-11-20 13:25|| Front Page Top

#22 BTW - Eric - Tryptophan-free? At Thanksgiving time? Turkey, milk....naptime

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-11-20 13:30|| 2005-11-20 13:30|| Front Page Top

#23 Waterboarding's not really torture anymore, is it?

Never was.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-11-20 13:52|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-11-20 13:52|| Front Page Top

#24 I have been tortured by the MSM for years. You think listening to Ted Kennedy, John F. Kerry, Dingy Harry, Hildebeast, BJ, BS, Michael Moore, etc. and ad nauseum isn't torture. If it isn't, I don't know what is. I'd rather endure my fingernails being pulled out, my gonads electrified, cold food, water torture, dragging a cat's nails across the blackboard, no cable TV, etc.

Posted by John Q. Citizen 2005-11-20 14:04|| 2005-11-20 14:04|| Front Page Top

#25 You have always kept your discourse civil

*blink* I have?? Am glad you think so, but that's one bit praise I am definitely not worthy of. At best I attempt to keep it *intelligent* (or atleast sentient).

And as for how I'd deal with al Qaeda blasting the Parthenon, I feel that this is a largely irrelevant question -- I'm not disputing the current moral superiority of America over the Islamofascists afterall -- the Islamofascists are genocidal murderers while the USA are mere torturers: that's a vast difference.

It's the morality of torture techniques, period, that I challenge -- torture techniques that are used against innocents as well. Not just against murderers, not even just against burglars. Against innocents.

So, to sum up my answer, I don't know *which* country I'd like to attack after Parthenon blew up, but I am pretty sure that I'd not advocate for torturing innocents -- nor would I consider it an issue that wouldn't be worth knowing about if it was taking place (or that the government had the right to keep secret), or a trivial issue to laugh at and ignore.

Sparta was far worse than Athens in every civilization issue worth knowing of, but in the end it was Athens's own folly and arrogance and yes its own bits of tyranny in the areas it controlled that led to its eventual downfall. And more and more, the United States end up reminding me of Imperial-Athens.

If you don't care about the basic immorality of using torture techniques against innocent, think about the harm that the use of torture does in the propaganda warfare. Which nation's people will want you to deliver it of its oppressors anymore, when they know of the means you are using to do so?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-11-20 15:40|| 2005-11-20 15:40|| Front Page Top

#26 My father-in-law had a good friend, Paul Webb, who was a prisoner-of-war in Japan for almost three years. Out of 27 men who were in his cell-block, only five survived. Nine of them were tortured so severely they died.

My dad was at Bastogne with the 9th Arty Regt, supporting the 101st. He also helped liberate Dachau. I told him once that I couldn't believe that any human being could do what I'd read about (I was about 15 then). He had photos, not only of Dachau but of some of the Americans captured during the Battle of the Bulge.

Everyone who isn't directly involved in fighting this damned war wants everyone to play nicey-nice. War is not nice, it's hell. This blue-suiter never expected to be on the perimeter at Khe Sahn in 1971, trying to shoot black shadows in the kunai grass, but when I was there, I had no qualms at shooting at anything that moved. War means imposing your will upon someone else at the least possible cost. All the crap about "Geneva Convention" and "torture" and the rest is just that - male bovine feces, mostly fermented and recycled by a bunch of people who have no experience with warfare. Personally, I'd gladly grab a couple of hundred of them and use them as perimeter detection systems - when they scream, I'd know we were being attacked. At least that way, they'd serve some useful purpose.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2005-11-20 15:54|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2005-11-20 15:54|| Front Page Top

#27 That's a mighty broad brush you're wielding there. Make sure you don't accidentally get any on someone who isn't a "torturer", even by your inane definition.

The proof of the pudding is never found in the second-hand blather of voyeurs who safely pontificate from afar. It's when it's up close and personal - and *fresh* - that words mean something. When your mother is killed by some "revolutionary" outfit, who cares what stripe of stupidity they sport on their banners, and by accident or not, then you can come to us and waggeth the Greek digit, demanding whatever it is you're demanding. Sans reality, you're just jerking off for the peanut gallery.

Hit the tip jar for spewing pointlessly. Then go peel some olives.

Posted by .com 2005-11-20 15:58|| 2005-11-20 15:58|| Front Page Top

#28 Oops, my #28 obviously, I hope, applies to #25. And OP makes my point very clearly.

Posted by .com 2005-11-20 16:01|| 2005-11-20 16:01|| Front Page Top

#29 If my definition of torture is inane, .com, then what's your definition of it? Before it was proved that Americans used it, I very much doubt you people here would have refused to recognize waterboarding as such.

As such, I see your technique for the obnoxiousness it is. "your mother killed", "the Parthenon destroyed".

Blah, blah -- glad you mock as meaningless the answer I was pressed in two posts into giving, about the unanswerable question of what I "would" act like. Glad you felt the need to raise the stakes -- not just the Parthenon destroyed, but my mother killed! How *civil* of you.

Truth is ofcourse none of us knows whether we'll keep to or lose our principles when something so traumatic happens.

Truth is ofcourse that there's also a difference between that, and never having any principles at all. I don't know if I'd end up wanting to torture innocent Muslims if my mother was killed by one. I don't know if my moral core would ever be so fundamentally changed as to want to harm innocents and think it utopian "nice-niceness" to try and do otherwise.

But unless *your* mother was murdered in this fashion, what's your justification for acting like you're acting *now*?

Or have you justified your own loss of principles by mere whatifs, .com? How convenient. You don't even need such trauma, you've what-ifed your way into immorality.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-11-20 16:19|| 2005-11-20 16:19|| Front Page Top

#30 These are merely allegations, unsubstantiated and unsourced. How fucking convenient for ABC and self-appointed demagogues. Such crap is floated everyday - for money, for moonbattery, for partisan politics, for whatever - and few are ever found substantial. ABC, the wank-o-matic's delight. They just renewed their MSM credentials.

Posted by .com 2005-11-20 16:21|| 2005-11-20 16:21|| Front Page Top

#31 #17 3dc---Re: rehabbing torture victims. Hey, your wife and mine should get together and talk shop, heh. From my reading and researchers my wife knows, the hard core jihadis are broken people. They are incapable of empathy, so they cannot be rehabbed. Unfortunately, there is nothing to be done about them but do what is necessary to never have them terrorize anyone again.

Herman the dawg sounds like a very convincing argument for cooperation with your interrogators, though.

Posted by Al Aska Paul">Al Aska Paul 2005-11-20 16:23|| 2005-11-20 16:23|| Front Page Top

#32 trepanning with a door-knob cutter and craftsman drill is a start

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-11-20 16:26|| 2005-11-20 16:26|| Front Page Top

#33 How am I acting, Aris? I challenge you for your voyeur status, which renders everything you say to what I described: safely pontificating from afar, second-hand BS. THAT is true. Everything else you've posted is just opinion and endless blather.

As for I'd do? Lol, that's none of your business, lol. I didn't start this pointless excursion into your bloated ego, you did. I've got a pin, however. Hit the tip jar or piss off.

Posted by .com 2005-11-20 16:27|| 2005-11-20 16:27|| Front Page Top

#34 Aris, you keep misdirecting the discussion by imputing the torture of "innocent" people. I only advocate using forceful interrogation against those who are captured amongst incontrovertible evidence of terrorist activity. Someone taken prisoner from a car bomb factory. People caught in possession of an IED. A person whose laptop is crammed with jihadist manuals and email addresses of known operatives.

These sick, twisted f&%ks are out to kill the maximum number of people possible in the least amount of time. They have essentially forfeited all consideration of their humanity by already having abandoning it themselves. Are we supposed to reinstall some sense of decency into these cretins for our own moral gratification? Is it even worthwhile?

I don't think so. Again,Aris, how would you feel about al Qaeda if they decided to utterly cripple your country and destroy some of your most nation's most cherished relics? You've yet to provide any really cogent answers. Condemning America does not excuse you from nor substitute for answering the question.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-20 16:37|| 2005-11-20 16:37|| Front Page Top

#35 Old Patriot---Many thanks for your comments. They are right on the mark. All this torture talk in the MSM is just another tool to use to attack the administration, military, and intelligence services. It is just used as a dagger to put one of a thousand cuts into the government.

It burns my ass to see and hear these LLL pontificating and trying to tear down any authority behind the barrier of safety that our military and other agencies risk their lives for.

I for one would like to see terrorists that get caught interrogated, intel acquired, brought before a military tribunal, sentenced, and executed---swift, clean, and humane. People do not realize that the terrorist will give no quarter. Our troops in Iraq know it. The public needs to know it.

The Administration needs to communicate to the public the kind of people we are dealing with. Stop the freedom euphenisms crap. It is getting old. They need pictures of Saddam's mass graves, blown up and maimed children from suicide bombers, decapitated prisoners. The LLL is using these type of shock images as a tool. People need to know the depths of depravity of these terrorists. Right now everything is sanitized.

Posted by Al Aska Paul">Al Aska Paul 2005-11-20 16:37|| 2005-11-20 16:37|| Front Page Top

#36 These jihadist pricks would torture/kill anyone of us for the hell of it. They don't give a flip what anyone thinks. They would kill or torture Aris (his mother, his father, his sister, his aunt, and his dog) in a heartbeat. They have no regard for civilization.

Posted by Gruling Spomort3668 2005-11-20 17:06|| 2005-11-20 17:06|| Front Page Top

#37 Amphetamine makes you release more Serotonin.

Prozac is an SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor).

I'd bet to my last dollar we know about SSREs where E=Excitor and Anti-Amphetamines. Smoking or Snorting these would lose those 4+ hours.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2005-11-20 17:20|| 2005-11-20 17:20|| Front Page Top

#38 Amphetamine makes you release more Serotonin.

Prozac is an SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor).

I'd bet to my last dollar we know about SSREs where E=Excitor and Anti-Amphetamines. Smoking or Snorting these would lose those 4+ hours.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2005-11-20 17:22|| 2005-11-20 17:22|| Front Page Top

#39 Any chance RantBurg might hold a Job Fair?

Posted by Shipman 2005-11-20 17:51|| 2005-11-20 17:51|| Front Page Top

#40 Most excellent idea Shipman. LOL.

Posted by John Q. Citizen 2005-11-20 17:52|| 2005-11-20 17:52|| Front Page Top

#41 .com, for all your shrills about my so-called "jerking-off", it's you who dragged my mother into this. It's you (and Frank ofcourse) who never debate with those pesky little things known as "arguments", but need to drag in your opponents' families, nationalities, personal histories, and ofcourse financial offerings. Given how much Internet costs in Greece, I'm probably wasting more money for my participation in this forum for a month than you have paid your whole existence here.

Zenster> Aris, you keep misdirecting the discussion by imputing the torture of "innocent" people.

First of all, I was talking about innocent people, not "innocent" people.

Secondly, I am not misdirecting any discussion. I'm simply starting from the fundamentals: When most people in Rantburg don't give a damn about the torture of possibly innocent Muslims, there'd be no absolutely no point to start debating with you on a far more controversial issue -- the torture of the definitely guilty.

And I've already fully answered your answer to the extent it pertains to the issue of torture, something which ofcourse .com then criticized. If you found my answer inadequate please explain how it was so.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-11-20 19:08|| 2005-11-20 19:08|| Front Page Top

#42 Aris, I find your answers wanting. Below are the only passages that remotely address the issue:

And as for how I'd deal with al Qaeda blasting the Parthenon, I feel that this is a largely irrelevant question -- I'm not disputing the current moral superiority of America over the Islamofascists afterall -- the Islamofascists are genocidal murderers while the USA are mere torturers: that's a vast difference.

It's the morality of torture techniques, period, that I challenge -- torture techniques that are used against innocents as well. Not just against murderers, not even just against burglars. Against innocents.

So, to sum up my answer, I don't know *which* country I'd like to attack after Parthenon blew up, but I am pretty sure that I'd not advocate for torturing innocents -- nor would I consider it an issue that wouldn't be worth knowing about if it was taking place (or that the government had the right to keep secret), or a trivial issue to laugh at and ignore.

In your first paragraph you properly distinguish between terrorists and those who seek to interdict them. Yet, in both your second and especially the third paragraph, where you purport to answer my question, you veer off into the torturing of innocents.

Again, what if the Parthenon had just been demolished with great loss of life and you apprehended an operative with partial plans and a portion of the explosive supplies for a similar destruction of the Acropolis. Would you defer inflicting any physical pain upon said terrorist and willingly risk further catastrophic loss of life in the name of maintaining the moral high ground?

I would find it extremely dificult to conscience having let more droves of people perish because I shrank from making a mass murderer uncomfortable.

And this is the larger scale issue we face today. The terrorists we are apprehending do not seek to merely destroy historic monuments, they aspire to use NUCLEAR WEAPONS for the destruction of major metropolitan cities. Try to remember how disappointed the 9-11 conspirators were that the twin towers did not topple over onto so many other city blocks full of unsuspecting people.

This is the ruthless and barbaric mindset we are up against. By replying that, "I don't know *which* country I'd like to attack after Parthenon blew up", you also sidestep another even more critical issue.

The fight against terrorism is no longer a battle waged on any particular soil or against any particular nation. Like it or not, Islamists have effectively turned this conflict into a religious war. The global Muslim community has done so little to purge its ranks of jihadists and the endless supply of terrorists have derived from such a broad swath of this planet's Muslim population, that it is rapidly becoming necessary to depose terror sponsoring nations plus extrajudicially and summarily execute Islamist leaders responsible for propagating international terrorism.

I repeat, your replies were unclear at best and I wonder if you are really willing to more closely identify relevant issues in your answers.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-20 20:55|| 2005-11-20 20:55|| Front Page Top

#43 Again, what if the Parthenon had just been demolished with great loss of life and you apprehended an operative with partial plans and a portion of the explosive supplies for a similar destruction of the Acropolis. Would you defer inflicting any physical pain upon said terrorist and willingly risk further catastrophic loss of life in the name of maintaining the moral high ground?

No, probably not. But unlike what you claim that's not the proper analogy by far. You can't even pretend to claim that *all* the people that were so imposed "physical pain" had "partial plans" for similar destructions. You can't even pretend that all the people tortured knew of imminent nuclear bombings -- that all of them knew of plans of any imminent bombings at all. At best you can say that *some* of them knew.

You simply torture people that you think *might* have information. Indeed you torture people that *might* be terrorists, and they often prove to be (surprise, suprise) not.

So, now it's you who are misdirecting the conversation -- directing it away from what is actually happening to hypothetical questions about what-if scenarios.

But I'll play your game and tell you this: When the time comes where I feel the need to torture people for information, that need will be so urgent that I'd feel it well-worth it to pass a few years in jail afterwards for whatever torture I impose. If the stakes were so high that I'd willing to torture people, then they must also be high enough that I'd willing to spend some time in jail for them.

Can the torturers of the American military say likewise, if they feel that their torturing likewise saved tens or hundreds of lives? Recruit your torturers from those people who are selfless enough to spend jailtime afterwards!

The global Muslim community has done so little to purge its ranks of jihadists and the endless supply of terrorists have derived from such a broad swath of this planet's Muslim population, that it is rapidly becoming necessary to depose terror sponsoring nations plus extrajudicially and summarily execute Islamist leaders responsible for propagating international terrorism.

Indeed. And tell me, do you feel the torturing techniques of the American military has made the job of Islamist leaders harder or *easier* in propagating and propagandizing international terrorism?

My bet is "easier". If I was an Islamist leader I'd be happy to hear of America losing what I'd see as pretense to moral/ethical/cultural superiority. And if I were an Islamist leader, I'd be unhappy if people on the street could make the plain comparison "Americans don't torture people, but our government does".

You think that torture makes you safer? I think that torture has made American lives a hundred times more unsafe.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-11-20 21:51|| 2005-11-20 21:51|| Front Page Top

#44 TW sorry for the late comment - but I missed your response. I hope you don't think that I was implying that you were trying to cash in on your mom's bravery! I was very sincere and think that you have every reason to be proud.

I just felt the need to clarify because my attempt to be at one with you paled so poorly that I felt embarrassed by it. But thanks for your kind and gracious response. :-)

Posted by 2b 2005-11-20 21:54|| 2005-11-20 21:54|| Front Page Top

#45 Appeasement of the islamofascists does not work. France has tried to appease the jihadists. Spain has tried to appease the jihadists. I don't know why anyone in the West would expect to get a pass from the jihadists. They hate all of us in the West. This is a war against our culture. If it is not addressed now, it will have to be addressed 50 years from now by our children and 50 years later by our children's children. Forget appeasement. It does not work. Reconsider history and those who tried to appease Nazi Germany. How well did that work? The appeasers were foolish. We are in a struggle to the end. If we don't end the islamofascists/jihadists, we will end up their slaves or dead. Our culture will not exist unless we address this here and now.

Posted by John Q. Citizen 2005-11-20 22:11|| 2005-11-20 22:11|| Front Page Top

#46 Aris, while I have, admittedly, been less than sympathetic to those who have snared in America's web of prosecuting terrorism, I will also say that I am less than happy about simple farmers and the like being subjected to physical interrogation.

You will note, in these arguments, my own careful designation of torture recipients being ones who are directly connected to acts involving imminent murder of more civilians.

I'd also like to point out, as Robert Crawford noted, that "water boarding" does not constitute a significant degree of physical torture. The treatment elicits a panic response from the suspect but does not result in any lasting physical harm, as actual drowning would. Likewise much of the physical duress described in the leading article of this thread.

When I mention torture, I am referring to the real thing, as in car batteries and the like. And yes, I'd prefer that our side not become expert in it. In fact, your own response provided goes a long way towards my own feelings about it:

When the time comes where I feel the need to torture people for information, that need will be so urgent that I'd feel it well-worth it to pass a few years in jail afterwards for whatever torture I impose. If the stakes were so high that I'd willing to torture people, then they must also be high enough that I'd willing to spend some time in jail for them.

Again, the physical discomfort and deprivation we are currently subjecting terrorist suspects to does not amount to the physical torture I would expect to spend years in jail for participating in.

Indeed. And tell me, do you feel the torturing techniques of the American military has made the job of Islamist leaders harder or *easier* in propagating and propagandizing international terrorism?

No. In the last year I have come to the conclusion that we long ago passed the point of no return. Islamists are so busy recruiting and brainwashing new killers that no action upon our own part, save a first-strike nuclear attack, could worsen our international image with these killers. NOT, because we have done so many ghastly things, but because our image has already been so distorted and twisted by these psychotics that little else we can do could make things any worse.

We are now in a life or death struggle with jihadist Islam and it is not inappropriate for us to utilize lifeboat ethics in dealing with it. The stakes are already far too high for any real mercy or restraint to be shown. Such demonstrations have consistently been turned against us to our own detriment.

Iraq has provided a vital lesson to world concerning Muslim on Muslim violence. Once such internecine strife is over, we can only expect worse treatment at the hands of whomever emerges. The glee with which Muslims kill each other is sufficient message to myself, that I no longer hold much sympathy to those who would promote it.

As I have mentioned before. A TINY FRACTION of this world's population is diverting resources so tremendous that the net result is thousands of people dying each day from avoidable starvation, disease, tyranny and oppression. I look towards the swift annihilation of these psychotic fanatical elements so that these vast expenditures can once again be directed towards the ends of fighting famine, dictatorship, illiteracy, disease and other afflictions that beset mankind.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-20 22:28|| 2005-11-20 22:28|| Front Page Top

#47 Prozac is an SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor).

I'd bet to my last dollar we know about SSREs where E=Excitor and Anti-Amphetamines. Smoking or Snorting these would lose those 4+ hours.

I know LSD is a serotonin agonist.

But the interrogation transcripts would be a bit, uh dodgy.

Posted by Eric 2005-11-20 22:41|| 2005-11-20 22:41|| Front Page Top

#48 "..there'd be no absolutely no point to start debating with you on a far more controversial issue -- the torture of the definitely guilty."

It's rather obvious that it is POINTLESS to torture innocent iraquis because, well, the definition of innocent implies they're not involved. If they're not involved, they can't contribute viable inelligence. Well duh.

Umm, Aris, are you sure you didn't mis-speak in that above sentence I quoted? I would cheerily endorse the torture of an obviously guilty Iraqui terrorist with actionable intelligence relating to car bombings, the majority of which also (surprise!) kills innocent Iraquis more often than (or instead of) American soldiers. I can understand why you are so concerned about the iraqui innocent that has been BLESSED BY YOUR ATTENTION, as well as understand why you'd ignore the reservations and qualifications everyone has put on their support for the torture of the guilty, but you'd buy more sympathy with me if you didn't handwave the innocent victims of terrorists that would be saved by such intelligence into second class status because you did NOT BLESS THEM WITH ***YOUR*** ATTENTION. Don't demand that we recognize YOUR nuances when you ignore the nuances of others. You're not that morally special.

The moral force of your argument derives from the high moral position put on the innocent. Agreed. However, ALL innocents possess that high moral position, not just the ones to whom a Euro, such as yourself, happens to pay attention. As the occupiers of Iraq, The US is responsible for security, although the moral and legal responsiblity for the actual killing of Innocent Iraqui civilians lies with the terroristic arrangers and implementers of car bombings, kidnappings and drive-by shootings. Thus, the moral question arises: is it right to do nothing if such inaction causes innocents to perish? Apparently, there seems to be a difference in moral opinion in this area between Euros and Americans: By their actions and words, one would say that the Euros hold that moral stigma attaches to those who murder the innocent directly, but NOT to those capable of stopping the murder but elect to do nothing to stop it. Rantburgers, for the most part, hold to the opposite, and thus attach moral stigma to Bush Sr's inaction when the Shias rebelled, for not pushing on in GWI and capturing Saddam himself, AND for the deaths of all the innocents between GWI and II because of that inaction. Call it a cultural difference and stop being intolerant.

Once one decides to act, things DO get messy. While the euros seem to have no problem with the principle of "the greatest good for the greatest number" as it applies to socialism and Communism in Russia and China, it appears that that principle is lost when it comes to this issue. Simply put, Terrorists and tyrants are acting in a calculated fashion that takes advantage of the Euro moral position by ensuring that any action taken against them takes out a few innocents. Reluctant to kill 10 innocents to save 100, the Euros do nothing and advocate doing nothing while the 100 are slaughtered. Americans do the math and conclude that "doing the greatest good for the greatest number" requires that action be taken. At the end of the day, 90 more innocents are alive. You, as a Euro, will doubtless equivocate, demur, and argue that the 100 would not have necessarily died if the Americans took no action, while by taking action, the 10 were surely killed, but the perversity of that position is this: in order for Americans to prove their position, they'd actually have to do nothing, letting 100 innocents die. And even then, the Euros won't admit the Americans were right, and argue that the NEXT 100 won't necessarily die.

Second class innocents.

I should, by the way, point out that, by this argument, invasion of Iran is not morally prudent: The Mullahs, despite all that they do and the future threat they pose, are simply not killing enough of their own people to justify the collateral damage inevitable in a GW-II style war.

I have to hit the sack now. I'm sure Aris will come up with something to cloud the issue, but to me, it all boils down to this question: are you guilty if you could have stopped a murderer, but chose not to?

Kitty Genovese would love to put in her two cents, but she's indisposed at the moment.

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2005-11-20 22:49|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2005-11-20 22:49|| Front Page Top

#49 Ptah, Ptah, don't you see. It's far easier to follow a dogma that deems you superior by your willingness to do nothing.

I think you nailed the most important part of the question.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-20 23:10|| 2005-11-20 23:10|| Front Page Top

#50 Truly fine observations, Ptah. Aris, I hope you will examine the contrasts drawn between idealistic European and pragmatic American mindsets. They serve to explain a lot regarding why Europe has been stagnating for the last several decades and why America has had to intervene to save Europe from itself, not once but twice, during the last century.

Posted by Zenster 2005-11-20 23:33|| 2005-11-20 23:33|| Front Page Top

23:53 DMFD
23:50 C-Low
23:49 DMFD
23:46 Rafael
23:42 .com
23:33 Zenster
23:21 Zenster
23:10 2b
23:05 John Q. Citizen
23:00 Edward Yee
22:55 John Q. Citizen
22:53 Justrand
22:49 Ptah
22:42 Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom
22:41 Eric
22:39 Long Hair Republican
22:30 Monsieur Moonbat
22:28 Zenster
22:23 2b
22:19 John Q. Citizen
22:15 BillH
22:11 John Q. Citizen
22:03 JosephMendiola
21:58 3dc