Article

2005-02-17 Home Front: Tech

As high-tech exports drop, US warned it could lose competitive edge

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by phil_b 2005-02-17 12:44:17 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The root cause it that the titans of industry prefer to outsource overseas rather then retain or hire US citizens. I know that from personal experience. An H2B visa holder is even preferable to a citizen as they can kick them out of the country if they don't play good yes men.

Posted by 3dc 2005-02-17 2:19:03 AM|| 2005-02-17 2:19:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 From a WashTimes article:
"The Task Force on the Future of American Innovation was formed by scientific societies, universities, businesses like IBM, Hewlett Packard, Texas Instruments and Intel and trade associations like the National Association of Manufacturers."

There are many different axes being ground, some nationalistic, some altruistic, some mercenary, and some of the people behind this organization are the ones demanding work visas so they can import cheap labor - not supporting any US effort to increase the native development of qualified engineers and scientists.

There's a lot to this issue, certainly more than merely producing qualified people. It's cost of research, cost of production, corporate tax laws, and a hundred other issues.

Posted by .com 2005-02-17 2:35:41 AM|| 2005-02-17 2:35:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 3dc to blame industry completly misses the point. If US companies don't source at the lowest cost their competitors will and drive out of business. Its how capitalism works.

.com, I agree there are many issues at work, but funding coparative ethnic studies or whatever, in preference to science and engineering is a big part of the problem and causes other problems like the woeful ignorance of basic science that leads to the global warming/kyoto lunacy amoungst other things.

Posted by phil_b 2005-02-17 2:47:12 AM|| 2005-02-17 2:47:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I doubt there's more than a hair's difference between us, phil_b.

I'm certainly not in favor of the PC-ized education system. We don't need ethnic studies. If doesn't have squat to do with anything whatsoever.

We do need mathematicians, physicists, every scientific discipline, every medical discipline, and engineers of every stripe.

Assuming we're talking about tech-intensive companies, per the article, I have an observation to offer...
King Stockholder runs the show in "new" corporations - hungry for development capital - that period before they prove their mettle and win market share. Then, unless the corp management is stupid and terminally greedy, they are subordinated to research, which rises to maintain the market share through innovation. The stockholders come because you're a Rolex in your industry, not because they're bribed and begged. Declining companies failed to continue putting research first - or failed to pay to get the talent for research to develop new and better products. Even the inertia of the giants can come to a grinding halt without continued emphasis on research. IBM is one of those which damned near fell on its face, thanks to its upper management's inability to accept the fact that no company is too big to fail.

Posted by .com 2005-02-17 3:01:48 AM|| 2005-02-17 3:01:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Article: According to the report, enrollment in science and engineering classes at US universities dropped 10 percent for US citizens between 1994 and 2001 but increased by 25 percent for foreign-born students.

It's weird how supposedly intelligent people can come up with the idea that Americans are less interested in science. The reason foreign enrolments are increasing and American enrolments are falling is because foreigners are becoming more prosperous - and more able to afford American college educations. Foreigners aren't stupid - they just have less money.

Note also that a rise in the number (and therefore the quality) of foreign applications will coincide with a fall in American enrolments - technical schools tend to accept applicants based on academic ability. If they want to ensure that more Americans enter technical schools, they need to start discriminating against foreign applicants instead of treating foreigners as if they were Americans. After all, it is not the taxpayers' responsibility to subsidize the educations of foreign students.

Bottom line - I think this is world citizen thinking on the part of both the corporations and the colleges. The colleges don't feel any allegiance to Americans, and - instead of doing the logical thing and accepting more Americans - just want a forum to keep themselves in the public eye. The corporations, staffed as they are by foreigners on US soil, don't feel any allegiance to Americans and just want to sound like they're doing something to divert the political heat they get by outsourcing.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-02-17 4:06:27 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-02-17 4:06:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Article: Chinaâs output in that sector, for example, shot up more than eight-fold -- from 30 billion dollars to 257 billion over the decade -- while in the United States, it just doubled from 423 billion dollars to 940 billion.

Some of this is double-counting, with regard to China's numbers. If China were really manufacturing that level of product, it would be a First World country rather than one of the poorer Third World countries. Note that China's total industrial output was just over $1T. The idea that IT is 25% of China's economy while being under 10% of the US economy is so ludicrous, I think the guys who write this kind of stuff ought to be stripped of their college degrees and be sentenced to having to retake all of their college courses.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-02-17 4:25:20 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-02-17 4:25:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Following on from Zhang's point. My brother is a US university prof in a scientific/technical discipline and at any time he has 6 to 8 grad students. They are overwhelmingly non-American (perhaps 80%). He says the quality of overseas applicants is so much better and he is only required to get the best candidates. There are two issues here. One is not enough good people go into scientific technical education. The other is the USA should stop subsidized education of foriegners. While it is admirable (and almost totally ignored) that almost all the worlds leading scientists and engineers get educated at US and to a lesser extent UK and Australian universities, you are training your future competition.

Posted by phil_b 2005-02-17 4:50:30 AM|| 2005-02-17 4:50:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 phil_b: Following on from Zhang's point. My brother is a US university prof in a scientific/technical discipline and at any time he has 6 to 8 grad students. They are overwhelmingly non-American (perhaps 80%). He says the quality of overseas applicants is so much better and he is only required to get the best candidates. There are two issues here. One is not enough good people go into scientific technical education. The other is the USA should stop subsidized education of foriegners.

I think great people go into technical education. In head-to-head competition - based on academics alone - Uncle Sam is only 5% of the world's population, yet generates 20% of the best technical minds. The problem isn't a lack of good technical minds - it's a lack of political will - in the sense of imposing the requirement that Federally-funded colleges admit foreigners only to the extent that they pay the full price of their education.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-02-17 5:00:06 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-02-17 5:00:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 #7

Do most of these graduate students than leave, taking their training with them?

Posted by gromgorru 2005-02-17 5:19:54 AM|| 2005-02-17 5:19:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 gromgorru, some stay, some leave. I couldn't give you numbers. My brother is one of the foreign grad students who stayed and now heads a Federal Drug Administration Committee amoungst other things. One clear benefit to the US is high quality immigrants.

Posted by phil_b 2005-02-17 5:47:20 AM|| 2005-02-17 5:47:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 GG, lots of them stay, seduced by the freedom and affluence of the U.S. Many of those that go back were also so seduced, but couldn't come up with a legitimate visa allowing them to stay. (Daddy worked exclusively with post docs, so I grew up hearing about this dilemma). So, they take their taste for affluence and freedom back with them to their home countries. Truth to tell, while we are thusly creating our future competition, this is also an extremely effective missionary program.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-02-17 5:58:39 AM|| 2005-02-17 5:58:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 It's weird how supposedly intelligent people can come up with the idea that Americans are less interested in science.

There's probably a difference but "less interested" might not be quite the right way to describe it. "More fearful of" or "less educated about" would likely be closer to the truth. As a society our lack of scientific education / understanding begins with out failed public schools but that's another rant entirely.

Posted by AzCat 2005-02-17 6:50:33 AM|| 2005-02-17 6:50:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Right. We don't have to raise all the future techs to prosper, we just have to integrate them into our economy. And no other system is set up to reward innovation (without corruption and more visible gov't drags) like ours. Funny Rantburg article not too long ago about top European research scientists all coming over...

Posted by someone 2005-02-17 7:59:05 AM|| 2005-02-17 7:59:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 US business leaders and government have created the problem. The US used to have the top R&D labs in the world. Companies have been shutting them down, filling them with H1B's or outsourcing them for years. Bell Labs is a shadow of it's former self. Same for Parc, TJ Watson, Sarnoff, etc. It's expensive and difficult to get an education for technology. Why would a smart student bust their butt getting a degree and then a graduate degree in math, engineering, or science when they are going to end up unemployed. Why not get a law degree and make a ton of money suing people.

Posted by AJackson 2005-02-17 8:00:08 AM|| 2005-02-17 8:00:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 As the US share in global high-tech exports was dropping, China, South Korea and other emerging Asian economies boosted theirs from seven percent in 1980 to 25 percent in 2001, according to the study.

I'm curious - how are these guys defining "exports"? If a U.S. company does its R&D here but sets up shop in China for the sole purpose of manufacturing the end product to be sold worldwide (as is the case in many instances), are those products "exports" of China exclusively?

"US employers are being forced to look overseas, as they face shortages of qualified technically trained talent in the US," said Craig Barrett, chief executive officer of Intel Corporation, a member of the task force.

I've heard of quite a few instances where engineers have gone unemployed for a long time due to their qualification level - the pay they would command is more than a company is willing to shell out, not to mention the age angle. (young engineers == more energetic, less out-of-company obligations, etc etc....you know the drill)

Personally, I think Barrett is just shoveling warm meadow muffins.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-02-17 10:48:52 AM|| 2005-02-17 10:48:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 #15
I've heard of quite a few instances where engineers have gone unemployed for a long time due to their qualification level - the pay they would command is more than a company is willing to shell out, not to mention the age angle. (young engineers == more energetic, less out-of-company obligations, etc etc....you know the drill),

I am one of those people. Motorola told me when I was part of one of their massive layoffs that they intended to replace me with 5 Indian engineers. I had been doing R&D and D for them for 13 years. Now, my resume scares the heck out of other people and doesn't fit any of PeopleSoft's PeopleClick filters that all the Fortune 500 hire through.

I have two smart sons. I directed one toward journalism and the other art. I would not wish engineering on any American with the current corporate environment.

Posted by 3dc 2005-02-17 12:21:58 PM|| 2005-02-17 12:21:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 sounds like the Chinese reps from Loral have spoken

Posted by Frank G 2005-02-17 12:26:32 PM|| 2005-02-17 12:26:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Now, my resume scares the heck out of other people and doesn't fit any of PeopleSoft's PeopleClick filters that all the Fortune 500 hire through.

Similar story here. My own field of study is pretty obscure, but along the way I've developed some skills that would be useful to industry. I thought I'd found a good match a while back, with a huge company that makes the devices that I'd been using in my work. This was just a technician's job, but, hey, it was something I could do, and even a "mere" technician can pull down more than a PhD doing basic, arcane research. So I applied, as directed, through the web site.

I was rejected in minutes. By the web site. By software.

An industry that can afford to let software do its hiring is not an industry that is in dire need of trained people. When industry headhunters are hunting my pure scientist pals, then I'll believe that there's really a tech shortage.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2005-02-17 2:00:00 PM|| [http://darkblogules.blogspot.com] 2005-02-17 2:00:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 If you trace down the core article it comes from AFP - Agence France Presse

Fricking French....

Posted by 3dc 2005-02-17 2:31:12 PM|| 2005-02-17 2:31:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 #8 The problem isn't a lack of good technical minds - it's a lack of political will - in the sense of imposing the requirement that Federally-funded colleges admit foreigners only to the extent that they pay the full price of their education.
ZF is correct. As a recent Ph.D. in Physics I can say that the lack of young americans interest in the sciences and engineering is purely financial and the goverments policies are exaserbating the problem. It takes to long and has to much oportunity-cost for americans to go into the sciences and engineering. Stop the subsidizing of forgein students education and the universities will have to start recruiting from US high schools. They will have to revamp their programs so it doesn't take 6 years to get an advanced degree which cost the students many years of lost income. And while I can't say anything good about the public school system, but it only takes a small numbers of the best students to decide to become scientist/engineers instead of laywers to change the system from what it is now.

Posted by RPB 2005-02-17 3:28:36 PM|| 2005-02-17 3:28:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 law students wouldn't become engineers and scientists just like that - they typically CAN'T do the math required, nor do they want to

Posted by Frank G 2005-02-17 3:34:44 PM|| 2005-02-17 3:34:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 The flaw in the "outsourcing helps America" nonsense is what is showing here.

To maintina the "top of the food chain" technology jobs, we have to have lots of college educated peopel taking on technology tegress, with hard math, hard science and solid engineering. And the best fo thos are generally proven through experience gained in the very jobs we are shipping overseas.

So people like my son, they see no tech jobs worth having at the entry level, only "senior" positions are open (and naturally a lot fewer of them). So he goes away from the science/engineering/math technology "feeder" degree, and is looking into management instead.

Outsorucein is decimating our entry level technology job market to the point where nobody wants to go in it. And when the current generation retires out, there will be no Americans to follow-on in thier footsteps outside of those who hold high Security Clearances and have worked for the government their whole career.

Outsourcing must be stopped - punitive taxes must be applied to reflect the true cost to society for outsourcing should be placed on the companies that do this. Outsource DOES cost the nation - and the companiues that do it have not saved the economy uch anything - they have just invisibly shifted the price to people down the pipe who will pay severely later.

We punish speeders because they endanger others. Why are these outsourcing companies given a free ride when they are endangering the very survivability of the republic?

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-17 4:36:12 PM|| 2005-02-17 4:36:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Old Spook
As one of the senior jobs outsourced. Tell me how the heck I can get a high Security Clearance and feast on those jobs when all those jobs require an existing high security clearance before they will hire you. Its a catch 22. I was in the commerical field but the overlap is extreme with current security type jobs.

Posted by 3dc 2005-02-17 5:15:51 PM|| 2005-02-17 5:15:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 t's all about Money OldSpook. Greed is driving the outsourcing. We have a pretty large number of corporate leaders and management who have little loyalty to our country apparently and only care about their over generous pay and benefit packages. They do lots of things that damage our economy to make sure they can live like royalty. I don't begrudge anyone who earns a good living and a generous salary and benefit package but lots of this is just insane.

My daughter got her master in Physics last spring. She is working as a high school math teacher.( Same place Mom works and the school she graduated with honors from..) She is qualified to teach Calculus. She teaches Freshmen Algebra this year. She was told that 38% of the freshmen class this did not graduate from middle school they were passed through. How are we going to compete with raw material like that?

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-02-17 5:26:08 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-02-17 5:26:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 You know Seduced By Freedom WBAPGNFAB.

Posted by Shipman 2005-02-17 8:14:08 PM|| 2005-02-17 8:14:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 The flaw in the "outsourcing helps America" nonsense is what is showing here.

To maintina the "top of the food chain" technology jobs, we have to have lots of college educated peopel taking on technology tegress, with hard math, hard science and solid engineering. And the best fo thos are generally proven through experience gained in the very jobs we are shipping overseas.

So people like my son, they see no tech jobs worth having at the entry level, only "senior" positions are open (and naturally a lot fewer of them). So he goes away from the science/engineering/math technology "feeder" degree, and is looking into management instead.

Outsorucein is decimating our entry level technology job market to the point where nobody wants to go in it. And when the current generation retires out, there will be no Americans to follow-on in thier footsteps outside of those who hold high Security Clearances and have worked for the government their whole career.

Outsourcing must be stopped - punitive taxes must be applied to reflect the true cost to society for outsourcing should be placed on the companies that do this. Outsource DOES cost the nation - and the companiues that do it have not saved the economy uch anything - they have just invisibly shifted the price to people down the pipe who will pay severely later.

We punish speeders because they endanger others. Why are these outsourcing companies given a free ride when they are endangering the very survivability of the republic?

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-17 4:36:12 PM|| 2005-02-17 4:36:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2005-02-17 4:36:12 PM|| 2005-02-17 4:36:12 PM|| Front Page Top

01:59 IDidSoToo
00:03 OldSpook
23:43 2b
22:49 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
22:44 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
22:44 Prince Abdullah
22:42 CrazyFool
22:39 Pappy
22:29 Alaska Paul
22:29 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
22:21 Old Patriot
22:18 Jacqueline
22:14 someone
22:11 Old Patriot
22:08 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
22:03 Alaska Paul
21:56 Jacqueline
21:50 Wuzzalib
21:50 Tom
21:49 Old Patriot
21:48 Frank G
21:45 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
21:40 Chase Unineger3873 aka Jarhead
21:39 Bomb-a-rama