Article

2005-01-09 Terror Networks & Islam

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Posted by TomAnon 2005-01-09 11:09:31 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "You can make the argument that weâre better off with him (at large)," Krongard said. "Because if something happens to bin Laden, you might find a lot of people vying for his position and demonstrating how macho they are by unleashing a stream of terror."

Yes, you can make the argument, but that doesn't make it correct. I just wonder how many terrorists are running around with great ideas they are holding on to, unimplemented, waiting for Osama to find the great beyond so that they may then unleash their super idea to show the terrorist world that they are the wothy successor to OBL. By this logic, we should keep it a secret when we waste him so that all his successors don't implement their plans.

This is just making excuses for failure.

This guy was at the CIA? Almost makes me feel qualified.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-09 12:09:49 PM|| 2005-01-09 12:09:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 " I just wonder how many terrorists are running around with great ideas they are holding on to, unimplemented, waiting for Osama to find the great beyond so that they may then unleash their super idea to show the terrorist world that they are the wothy successor to OBL. "

I dont think they are waiting for OBL to go anywhere. Where in the terrorist manuals does it say OBL has to be dead in order to implement a terrorist act ? It wouldnt take much to show him up right now.

Posted by tex 2005-01-09 12:26:39 PM|| 2005-01-09 12:26:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Osama Better Alive than Dead

Quite true. We need to capture him first, publicly try him and then make him dead.

Somehow, this moron wails about the danger of apirants to bin Laden's throne needing to establish their terrorist credentials while totally ignoring the potential value of lengthy infighting over who wears the crown.

This is like being afraid of taking down the Mafia dons because they might form a bigger syndicate.

Posted by Zenster 2005-01-09 3:03:41 PM|| 2005-01-09 3:03:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 no trial - execution on the spot.

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-09 3:17:41 PM|| 2005-01-09 3:17:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 How about no trial and a slow death in an iron cage in lower Manhattan or outside the Pentagon.

Posted by Tom 2005-01-09 3:39:15 PM|| 2005-01-09 3:39:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 no trial - execution on the spot.

Nope, it's far more important to apply rule of law, especially in this particular case. It is crucial for all Islam to finally understand that this shaaria horseshit of theirs will forever be trumped by constitutional law. There needs to be made a clear demonstration that Allah cannot save maggots like bin Laden from answering for their crimes.

The trial and execution of Osama should serve as the starting gun of a worldwide hunt for all Islamist terror advocates with the simple aim of killing them all.

Preach violent jihad - catch a bullet. No exceptions or exemptions. Aspire to civilian atrocities and you are dead meat. No options.

Posted by Zenster 2005-01-09 3:53:21 PM|| 2005-01-09 3:53:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Better look at the circus Milosovic's trial has turned into and which will be Saddam's. I'm with Frank, shot resisting capture.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-09 3:58:02 PM|| 2005-01-09 3:58:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Better look at the circus Milosovic's trial has turned into and which will be Saddam's.

No milquetoast World Court ~~three ring circus~~ trial for bin Laden. Swift and sure trial by an American military tribunal for waging war against our nation's people and then a brief visit with the firing squad.

Videotape bin Laden's execution and cremation, then distribute it throughout the Arab world. Let them know what awaits anyone who seeks to harm our nation.

Posted by Zenster 2005-01-09 4:08:38 PM|| 2005-01-09 4:08:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 If it were that easy, I'd agree, but the Ramsey Clarks and showboating Democrats like Pelosi will prevent it and it will become a farce. First step is to file a motion that the military court does not have jurisdiction because 9/11 was not an act of war by a foreign power, it was a criminal act and should be tried in the approrpiate civilian courts. Civilian courts will not be able to resist.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-09 4:14:26 PM|| 2005-01-09 4:14:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Civilian courts will not be able to resist.

Nothing a presidential directive couldn't cure. Go ahead with the judicial challenges, just make sure that bin Laden's trial runs concurrently. Osama and his turban would be up the chimney long before a final ruling ever got handed down in the courts.

Posted by Zenster 2005-01-09 4:29:03 PM|| 2005-01-09 4:29:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I'm with Frank, shot resisting capture.

No, Mrs. David. Shot trying to escape after interrogation would better.

Posted by SwissTex 2005-01-09 5:19:22 PM|| 2005-01-09 5:19:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "A.B. 'Buzzy' Krongard," eh? How many more of these J Leverett Saltonstall WASP incompetents are still mucking up the top echelons of the CIA? Would it be too much to ask of our intelligence agency to recruit and promote some of the thousands of brilliant Asian-Americans who actually know the regions and speak near and far eastern languages?

Raze the CIA to the ground. Start over, already.

Posted by lex 2005-01-09 5:36:30 PM|| 2005-01-09 5:36:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Since you asked, Lex, here's what the boys at Princeton had to say about Buzzy:

A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard '58 once punched a great white shark in the head on a bet. He practices lethal martial arts with an intensity that is frightening. And the only guns he collects are ones he can use.

Colleagues and family say they're not surprised Krongard chose a second career in the perilous world of international espionage. He's a former Marine with an outspoken nogutsnoglory persona that made him stand out among the reserved, grayflanneled ranks of investment bankers.

Some intelligence experts say Krongard might be just what the CIA needs now. He earned a reputation for being brutally honest while building Baltimore brokerage Alex. Brown into a respected Wall Street player before Bankers Trust bought it in 1997.

"It's going to be a breath of fresh air out at Langley. Buzzy is certainly sympathetic to the mission of the agency, but isn't at all hesitant to speak out about problems," says R. James Woolsey, the CIA director from 1993 to 1995.

Critics say the CIA has lost its analytical depth -- it failed to foresee India's nuclear tests last May, for instance -- and is in need of a major overhaul. "It's not a one-to-one translation from Wall Street to the intelligence community. But unlike an agency insider, Buzzy will be able to use his principles of management to help improve the agency," Woolsey says.

What does Krongard say he can offer? "My main job is to be helpful. I'll pick up towels in the men's room if they want," he says. "What I will be doing is assist in strategic matters. Many Wall Street analysts do things and collect information in ways not dissimilar to what we do here. The only difference is methodology."

Krongard is a larger-than-life character whose words often beg to be accompanied by the Marine anthem. ( I always thought it is a Hymn. What do I know, I didn't go to Princeton.)Friends say he exudes a stormthebeach brand of patriotism.

Krongard's second career was born over a lunch late last year with his old friend Tenet, who raised the possibility that Krongard come work for the CIA.

Krongard's business experience began 36 years ago when he went to work for his father-inlaw's label and patch company in Baltimore after a threeyear stint in the Marines. He got hooked on the art -- and adrenaline -- of dealmaking when negotiating the sale of the company. He knew finance was for him. In 1971, he joined what was then called Alex. Brown & Sons as a finance associate. Under Krongard's leadership as CEO at Alex. Brown, the firm was transformed from a regional brokerage into a Wall Street force, all the while remaining headquartered in Krongard's native Baltimore. Between 1992 and 1996, the firm's revenue grew from $445 million to more than $1 billion. The firm also became a leader in underwriting initial public offerings, a lucrative business that made Alex. Brown an attractive target for Bankers Trust. The bank bought the firm for $1.7 billion last year, and the deal left Krongard with $71 million in Bankers Trust stock. In his last year at the firm, Krongard made $4 million in salary and bonus.

Krongard likes honing his marksmanship with his favorite 9mm Glock or SIG-Saurer handguns at the firing range on his 93acre estate near Baltimore. But he also enjoys intellectual pursuits. He can carry on for hours about his favorite philosophers -- Socrates, Spinoza, and Hume -- or about his favorite paintings in the Louvre. And if Krongard is as driven in his new job as he is about his physical fitness, the spy world had better watch out.

Consider this recent demonstration: Krongard, in the basement gym of his Baltimore home, asks me to punch him in the gut. After some trepidation, I land a right jab squarely on Krongard's taut abs. "Come on now," Krongard shouts. "Is that all you got?" I swing again. And again. "Geez, is that all you got? I mean really hit me." I deliver one last punch, this time with a wind-up. A grimace doesn't even cross Krongard's face. "Boy, you don't hit very hard, do you?" Disappointed, Krongard returns to practicing moves on a rubber dummy.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-09 6:17:37 PM|| 2005-01-09 6:17:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Thanks for the research Mrs. Davis. The guy sounds incredibly reckless. A lot of people made a lot of money during the boom times of the 80's and 90's, that hardly qualifies them as a good CIA analyst.

Posted by TomAnon 2005-01-09 6:38:17 PM|| 2005-01-09 6:38:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 J Leverett Saltonstall WASP incompetents

lex - what's your connection to MA? I never caught it.

Posted by Raj 2005-01-09 6:51:39 PM|| 2005-01-09 6:51:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I read this and thought if we get Osma he will spill his guts and when he does it better be made very public, just like his execution. Don't keep everything about it secret. Let all the info out. Screw the Saudi princes that are still paying his bills. He is staying hidden by this money and help from Pakistani govermental types. Let the world know who they are.

This clown Krongard is just another rich weirdo who should go back to banking and keep his mouth shut. His opinion doesn't count for much.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-01-09 6:54:17 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-01-09 6:54:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 That's one of those names like Bourke Hinckenlooper you just don't forget.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-09 7:02:09 PM|| 2005-01-09 7:02:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 After sifting and applying the WTF?, BS!, and Who Cares? tests, I saw 2 things:
1) I tend to trust Woolsey because he's anything but an idiot and looney.
2) But the article did say that Tenet was Buzzy's good friend (uh, oh)...

Sigh. I'll go with Woolsey, Tenet might've had a hot sister or something.

Posted by .com 2005-01-09 7:06:55 PM|| 2005-01-09 7:06:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I read this and thought if we get Osma he will spill his guts and when he does it better be made very public, just like his execution. Don't keep everything about it secret. Let all the info out. Screw the Saudi princes that are still paying his bills. He is staying hidden by this money and help from Pakistani govermental types. Let the world know who they are.

Bingo, SPoD. We need to find out who's been financing this maggot, then put them and all their buddies through the wringer a few times. This is one food chain that needs to be carefully disassembled link by link. No expense should be spared (e.g., using fMRI or other sophisticated analysis techniques) in doing so. No pains should be spared either, at least upon Osama's part.

From Saudi Royals to the lowliest backstreet hood, once they are identified we need to apprehend and interrogate every single one and then kill them. No one gets out of the net alive. The terror world needs to be shown that their activities are nothing but a one-way ticket to the graveyard.

Posted by Zenster 2005-01-09 7:09:58 PM|| 2005-01-09 7:09:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Zen, here's an OT link for you.

Posted by .com 2005-01-09 7:12:00 PM|| 2005-01-09 7:12:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Mrs D, you've drunk too much kool aid. The myth of the macho CIA ivy leaguer is outdated at best.

What does "Buzzy" know about the middle east? About jihad and jihadists? Iran? In that region the CIA has next to no (Gerecht would say none at all) productive assets. I think it's long past time the CIA started recruiting non-blue-eyed, dark-skinned second-generation persian-americans and pakistani-americans and arab-americans, regardless of their macho credentials or investment banking skills. Wrong century for that.

Posted by lex 2005-01-09 7:53:28 PM|| 2005-01-09 7:53:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Raj - my sources within Langley complained long and bitterly about the dead weight of all the WASPy incompetents hired in the 1950s and 1960s. Perhaps they no longer clog the agency to such an extent, but the ascension of Buzzy Boy does not inspire confidence.

Posted by lex 2005-01-09 7:56:00 PM|| 2005-01-09 7:56:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Thank you, .com.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant.

Posted by Zenster 2005-01-09 7:59:38 PM|| 2005-01-09 7:59:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 I don't know why you think I've drunk any kool-aid, lex. I agree with you. But that is what's on the web for Krongard's WASPy background.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-09 8:00:02 PM|| 2005-01-09 8:00:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 On the princeton.edu website, Mrs D. Nothing wrong with dear old princeton but the mythology mill's working overtime here. We have an agency that is, acc to (Princeton grad and former Bernard Lewis student) Reuel Marc Gerecht, "flying blind in the middle east." This region presents the most important security threats we face. Why would we tap to head the agency someone whose within-memory experience is almost entirely in arranging private placements in Baltimore?

This is insane. There are thousands of brilliant asian- and arab-americans in this country who have forgotten more about the middle east and south asia than Buzzy will ever learn. Why promote the latter over the former?

Posted by lex 2005-01-09 8:16:28 PM|| 2005-01-09 8:16:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Grrrrrr.....

[rant]
Can the labels - there are brilliant people who know their shit. They do not need to be of any particular ethnic stripe, but they do need to have no foreign matter in their value system. Words don't cut it. Life experience is essential, and Buzzy doesn't have it unless they left out being raised in Baghdad or Beijing for 10 yrs or so.

There are good reason why a second, or even third, generation whatever-ethnicity should be viewed with strong suspicion and given an extremely careful vetting - those people who immigrate bring their shit with them. The evidence for this is absolutely irrefutable - look at Chinatown, look at Detroit, look at the whole of the UK. It takes both a long time and a certain type of person to throw off the "traditions" (read: baggage and indoctrination) and actually internalize the values you have. Multiple generations for most families. I know a LOT of transplanted Middle-Easterners, Pakiwakis, Saudis, Jordanians, Paleos, you name it. And those who have been in the US only one generation are still full of third world idiocy. I only know 2 who are members of families on the second generation (i.e. grandchildren of the original immigrants) and they STILL have the tell-tales. Why? Indoctrination passed down from moron to idiot and idiot to fool. Stupidity is a family affair. Passing on stupidity is the norm.

I would be far more comfortable with a 5+ generation American who was raised in multiple locations overseas, than an immigrant of less than 3 generations who lives in the US. I suggest that you are 100x better off with someone who is generationally steeped in the American values system and then goes overseas - and notes the differences from our POV, than the reverse.

And a corollary... I do NOT subscribe to the idiocy of the various myths, Indian programmers, et al. Such horseshit - and common knowledge to those who've been there / done that. TFBS - Total Fucking BullShit. There are good and bad, smart and stupid, looney and sane people everywhere, but what is instilled in your early years is extremely hard to jettison, even when you know, on an intellectual level, that it's crap. I've seen it in Saudi and Pakiwaki "friends" who seem so logical, able to abstract and theorize, work hard as the devil, and accomplish great things - then you hit one of those ethical buttons, such as the Paleos, and BOOM! Instant Foam-at-the-Mouth Moron. Implacably, undoubtedly, irretrievably indoctrinated and knee-jerk. Pavlov's Pooch had nothing on these guys.

Give me an American, nothing less, who knows his shit about them, not one of them who thinks he's now an American. He's not, unless his great grandfather was an adopted orphan.
[/rant]

My $0.02.

Posted by .com 2005-01-09 8:39:12 PM|| 2005-01-09 8:39:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 "hit one of those ~~ethical~~ ethnic buttons"

Posted by .com 2005-01-09 8:41:36 PM|| 2005-01-09 8:41:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 "Because if something happens to bin Laden, you might find a lot of people vying for his position and demonstrating how macho they are by unleashing a stream of terror."

On the other hand, they may decide to show their stones by whacking the competition. That's worth it's weight in popcorn!

Posted by BH 2005-01-09 11:09:22 PM|| 2005-01-09 11:09:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Give me an American, nothing less, who knows his shit about them, not one of them who thinks he's now an American. He's not, unless his great grandfather was an adopted orphan.

[OT]

So, .com, where do you stand on Schwarznegger running for president?

[/OT]

Posted by Zenster 2005-01-09 11:25:01 PM|| 2005-01-09 11:25:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Another Ivy League turd trying to make excuses and whitewash his buddies' failures.

THIS is why I am favoring a "purge" that the press is whining about - its jerks like this that killed Ops.

And this is why the CIA need to start recruiting from the Red States instead of the Ivy League. The Ivy League no longer represents the best this nation has to offer - it has rotted from the inside out since the time of "God and Man at Harvard".

The best we have are now at the State Universities out here in Flyover land. Precisely the people the Old Boys Club at the top look down their nose at - and ignore.

And BH, you make exactly the point I am going to amplify. I know this mindset. Its not "blowing up the Infidel" that gets you ahead with these types. Its gunning down your rivals that gets you there. The Infidel is only for fund raising amongst the fat moneybag windbag wannabes like the Saudi's, and the compliant power hungry mullahs that deliver the cannon fodder to them and launder the money for them.

The real movers and shakers will go for the throat if they have a chance to grab the top spot - and once they do, they purge all they way down the line, for loyalty - anyone that is competent and possibly disloyal will be "neuatralized" as a threat to the new leadership.

These guys learned how to operate at the knee of western organized crime and eastern totalitarians, and put their own fanatic fundamentalists twist on it.

This twit from the upper echelons is just as misinformed as the Police Chief's computer was about Simon Pheonix in Demolition Man.

And no, I've not taken the oath again yet. Once I do I will have to shut up about this kind of thing.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-09 11:27:47 PM|| 2005-01-09 11:27:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Another Ivy League turd trying to make excuses and whitewash his buddies' failures.

THIS is why I am favoring a "purge" that the press is whining about - its jerks like this that killed Ops.

And this is why the CIA need to start recruiting from the Red States instead of the Ivy League. The Ivy League no longer represents the best this nation has to offer - it has rotted from the inside out since the time of "God and Man at Harvard".

The best we have are now at the State Universities out here in Flyover land. Precisely the people the Old Boys Club at the top look down their nose at - and ignore.

And BH, you make exactly the point I am going to amplify. I know this mindset. Its not "blowing up the Infidel" that gets you ahead with these types. Its gunning down your rivals that gets you there. The Infidel is only for fund raising amongst the fat moneybag windbag wannabes like the Saudi's, and the compliant power hungry mullahs that deliver the cannon fodder to them and launder the money for them.

The real movers and shakers will go for the throat if they have a chance to grab the top spot - and once they do, they purge all they way down the line, for loyalty - anyone that is competent and possibly disloyal will be "neuatralized" as a threat to the new leadership.

These guys learned how to operate at the knee of western organized crime and eastern totalitarians, and put their own fanatic fundamentalists twist on it.

This twit from the upper echelons is just as misinformed as the Police Chief's computer was about Simon Pheonix in Demolition Man.

And no, I've not taken the oath again yet. Once I do I will have to shut up about this kind of thing.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-09 11:27:47 PM|| 2005-01-09 11:27:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-09 11:27:47 PM|| 2005-01-09 11:27:47 PM|| Front Page Top

03:08 Seafarious
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23:47 Phil Fraering
23:36 Zenster
23:28 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:27 OldSpook
23:26 Old Patriot
23:25 Zenster
23:23 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:15 BH
23:09 Old Patriot
23:09 BH
23:04 Sock Puppet of Doom
22:52 BH
22:47 Steven Den Beste
22:46 Dave D.