Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Fri 09/10/2004 View Thu 09/09/2004 View Wed 09/08/2004 View Tue 09/07/2004 View Mon 09/06/2004 View Sun 09/05/2004 View Sat 09/04/2004
1
2004-09-10 Home Front: Politix
Rather / 60 Minutes investigated
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by mojo 2004-09-10 11:52:40 PM|| || Front Page|| [7 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 
I hear the sound of wing beats...wait...look, up there! What is it? It is the slap fairy coming to pay CBS a visit!
Posted by CiT 2004-09-10 12:12:24 AM||   2004-09-10 12:12:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 holy sheet--Man, could it be any more obvious? If that signature on the right was typed using a '72 era typewriter, The first "o" in "Colonel" should line up exactly with the "y" in "Jerry". And the second "m" in "Commander" should line up with the "C" in "Colonel". Pure fabrication from the CBS "experts" who are moonlighting on the Kerry campaign--oh, but they're not biased!
Posted by Dar  2004-09-10 12:15:36 AM||   2004-09-10 12:15:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 I'll be interested to see if CBS outs the 'source(s)' of this fraud. Popcorn's ready!
Posted by PBMcL 2004-09-10 12:19:40 AM||   2004-09-10 12:19:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#4  Maybe the looney left can accuse Michael Ledeen of forging these too, seeing how their Niger charges kinda collapsed ...
Posted by Dan Darling  2004-09-10 12:21:48 AM|| [http://www.regnumcrucis.blogspot.com]  2004-09-10 12:21:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Dan Rather and the left have been putting the USofA Security in jeopardy for way to long. Let's be clear here , CBS network has fallen and can't get up. We know now and every American will soon learn that the old Media Monopoly has been lying to them . Once this hit's the front page tomorrow or the next day, I think the heart of the US citizens will change on how they look at the evening news and the dead tree press.
Hail to the bloggers and the talk show hosts of today's conservative AM radio. Long live Rush Limbaugh who started this incredible revolution!!

Posted by Long Hair Republican  2004-09-10 12:24:19 AM||   2004-09-10 12:24:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 "BWAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha!"
-- Karl Rove
Posted by mojo  2004-09-10 12:43:43 AM||   2004-09-10 12:43:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Big Media needs to drop its advocacy and go back to reporting the news, Sgt Friday style: Just the Facts ma'am.

It has been repeatedly spanked by blogs and talk radio - and this demonstrates the duplicity of MSM, and thier liberal bias that leads them to fraud like this.

Nice side effect: Kitty Kelley is going to be grilled when her book comes out. Seems the nuclear explosion over the "AWOL Forgery" is going to be fratricidal given all the innuendo and lies in her slash attack on Bush.
Posted by OldSpook 2004-09-10 1:26:34 AM||   2004-09-10 1:26:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Obviously, the adage "dead men tell no tales" is in play for the Dummycrats.
Posted by Capt America  2004-09-10 1:53:22 AM||   2004-09-10 1:53:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Obviously, the adage "dead men tell no tales" is in play for the Dummycrats.
Posted by Capt America  2004-09-10 1:53:42 AM||   2004-09-10 1:53:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Remember the indignance of the MSM media to the fact that the CIA allowed forged documents to be used in the case for invading Iraq? Remember how condescending they were about how important fact checking was?
Posted by Super Hose 2004-09-10 4:30:07 AM||   2004-09-10 4:30:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Typefaces and kerning: why do they hate us?

/gunga Dan
Posted by MrO 2004-09-10 6:08:51 AM||   2004-09-10 6:08:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-10 6:28:34 AM||   2004-09-10 6:28:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 This is going to be hilarious!

1) Rather & 60 Min. runs with forged documents.

2) Kitty Kelly's book found to be mostly fabricated.

3) Ben Barnes is called a liar by his own daughter.

Too freaking funny!, I wouldn't be surprised that in the aftermath of this debacle we learn that the whole sordid mess was somehow orchistrated by that DNC dumbass Terry McCauliff(sp?).
Posted by RJB in JC MO 2004-09-10 6:28:42 AM||   2004-09-10 6:28:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 If there's even a hint that these documents came from the Kerry campaign, they should send some forensic guys over there to check on the authenticity of Kerry's service records posted on his web site. Better yet get Kerry to release source documents from Navy files.
Posted by GK 2004-09-10 6:31:56 AM||   2004-09-10 6:31:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 #12...AC...great logo...

Suffice it to say it'll be a REAL long time before any MSM will post documents on their website in support of their story line. They'll tell us..."we've got the documents to prove the story and you'll just have to trust us."
Posted by Mark Z.  2004-09-10 6:36:30 AM||   2004-09-10 6:36:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 If there's even a hint that these documents came from the Kerry campaign

I suspect their source was Ben Barnes, who happens to be the vice-chairman of the Kerry campaign in Texas and is on the short-list for appointees if Kerry gets elected.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-09-10 6:41:19 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-09-10 6:41:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 RC, the LGF minions have been zeroing in on Barnes as the likely suspect (start at about #240).
Full disclosure: "Shiplord Kirel" and my humble self are the same person, er, lizard.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-10 6:49:05 AM||   2004-09-10 6:49:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 I suspect the MSM will go back under their rocks and stay away from anything negative about Bush from anyone.
Rather is deservedly damaged goods. I wonder how CBS will justify keeping him employeed? Rather a liberial democrat texan gets this crap from another liberal democrat texan who actually got it from moveon.org who got it from some of the "new" hires to Keery campaign who are too dumb and young to know there were no " personal computers" in the 1970's because they are so young there always have been personal computers. Wonder if CBS gives up their source to redeem themselves? Whats the criminal penalty for faking these kinds of papers?
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-10 6:52:38 AM||   2004-09-10 6:52:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Last night I replicated Charles Johnson's feat of duplicating one of the Killian memos using MS Word on its default settings, and got an EXACT MATCH to the memo on CBS's web site. Piece of cake.

When I was in the Army from 1970-1973, my weapon of choice was the Smith-Corona manual typewriter (I spent the last year of my tour of duty writing course materials for the U.S. Army Signal School). There were no Selectric typewriters or any other electric, as they were too expensive. Also, needless to say, there were no PCs nor any Microsoft Word.

Someone ought to get his ass handed to him for this stupid stunt, that's for sure. Personally, I won't be satisfied by anything less than Dan Rather doing a "Bud Dwyer" on the next edition of 60 Minutes. (Bud was a Pennsylvania politician who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar back in the 80's; he blew his brains out with a .44 Magnum during a live news conference.)
Posted by Dave D. 2004-09-10 7:09:03 AM||   2004-09-10 7:09:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Ben Barnes says he was Lt Governor of Texas when he helped Pres Bush get into the Air National Guard.
Here is a list of Texas Lt Governors.
Barnes became Lt Governor of Texas at the beginning of 1969.

The President entered the Texas Air Guard in May 1968 after his graduation from Yale.

Time to scratch ones head I guess. . .
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-10 7:38:33 AM||   2004-09-10 7:38:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Dave D so you are the man I cursed. 05b pack mule here.
Posted by incarnate of lee atwater 2004-09-10 8:37:08 AM||   2004-09-10 8:37:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 I just read on Drudge that Killian's widow has some serious doubts about the memos. She said this on Larry King which has got to drive the LLL media NUTS. I hope Blather get canned, but I doubt it.
Posted by Cyber Sarge  2004-09-10 9:38:31 AM||   2004-09-10 9:38:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Both Fox and CNN are running this story on there websites. NICE!
Posted by domingo 2004-09-10 9:53:22 AM||   2004-09-10 9:53:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 hell - i got out of the USMC in 1997 & i was still using a typewriter for memos.

morons.
Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-09-10 10:01:52 AM||   2004-09-10 10:01:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 A story within the story here is how the other MSM outlets are going to cover this. I bought the print edition of the NYT today to check (and besides, my cat is trained to rip it to pieces.) They run a story on page A-19 (right next to "Foreign Minister of Liechenstein Blasts US Beet Policy, As Bush Continues to Falter.") The article refers only to Col. Killian's son "questioning" the memos, and omits any reference to the font and signature issues, or to the role of bloggers in bringing the story to light.
Posted by Matt 2004-09-10 10:23:48 AM||   2004-09-10 10:23:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Dan Rather is a liar. Or guilty of extreme journalistic malpractice, to coin a phrase. To be fired is too good for him.
Posted by eLarson 2004-09-10 10:29:52 AM||   2004-09-10 10:29:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 I hope, at the least, the lib MSM turns inward and feeds on itself to shred CBS. Seeing any one of these liberal propaganda machines collapse is a victory for truth--and to see them eat one of their own would just make it that much more entertaining.
Posted by Dar  2004-09-10 10:31:45 AM||   2004-09-10 10:31:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Between this and the Navy's investigation of SKerry's Silver Star (which the MSM obviously refuses to report - but it will get out since they no longer have a monopoly). I think (and hope) the Dems are in for a rude awakening.

I don't think the MSM will 'feed on itself' but go into full ass-covering mode. They still think that they have a monopoly and all they need to do is ignore it or outright lie about it and it will be taken care of. If CBS does out their 'source' they will probably lie about who it was.

I would not trust them if they told me my own name.
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-09-10 10:42:25 AM||   2004-09-10 10:42:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Dan Rather is a lying piece of crap, and I expect his resignation on my desk by Monday morning.
Posted by Chris W.  2004-09-10 10:42:36 AM||   2004-09-10 10:42:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909-1.html
"More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity.

"These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:"

Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.
The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.
The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.
The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.
The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers."

Doesn't exactly shred CBS but the point is implicit when you shred CBS's 'evidence' Hopefully it will get more explicit over a time. I think the story will have legs. And might run all the way to the DNC. IDIOTS! HA!

Posted by domingo 2004-09-10 11:06:37 AM||   2004-09-10 11:06:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Pat Caudell, Dem Pollster and former Carter communications guy on Fox just now sez: "If this is traced back to Kerry operatives (and CBS will eventually have to give up their source names) then the election's over... I'm being honest because I'm trying to save my party"
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-10 11:21:19 AM||   2004-09-10 11:21:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 I'll never figure out Caudell, weird fella.
Posted by Shipman 2004-09-10 11:43:40 AM||   2004-09-10 11:43:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 I too duplicated the "18 August" memo using my computer (Mac), Word X, default settings, Times-Roman 12 pt. Freaking scary in a way, and appalling that the folks at CBS, who apparently had some questions about the authenticity of the memos, went ahead with the story anyway. Demonstrates pretty well the depth of hatred the CBS News team has for GWB.
Posted by Steve White  2004-09-10 12:19:57 PM||   2004-09-10 12:19:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 I've read lots of speculation as to how this happened.
Could it be that the Donks simply think that we are too stupid to know the difference?
Posted by SR-71 2004-09-10 12:25:57 PM||   2004-09-10 12:25:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 It would be just too rich if Dan Rather turned out to be the one to put the final nail in Kerry's coffin. If Bush wins, I may have a few "Thanks, Dan" bumperstickers made up.
Posted by Matt 2004-09-10 12:30:59 PM||   2004-09-10 12:30:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Rather vouches for the docs. Powerline has a latest post questioning where Gunga Dan would've got the docs. Hint: remember the Ben Barnes interview...

Rather's done.
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-10 12:49:06 PM||   2004-09-10 12:49:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Re Comment 17: Hey Atomic Conspiracy... why not just use your real name on both sites?

(And which of "Shiplord Kirel" and "Atomic Conspiracy" is the real name, and which is the pseudonym, anyway?)

Anyway, I'm laughing my ass off about the whole thing. The Kerry campaign is being laid low because they depended on Microsoft.

This has GOT to be causing heavy cognitive dissonance over at Crashdot.
Posted by Phil Fraering 2004-09-10 12:49:43 PM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]  2004-09-10 12:49:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 I don't think the people who perpetrated this think people are too stupid to notice these are forgeries. What I think is they hoped and did get these "memos" out on MSM and since it is CBS 60 Minutes people will believe anyway even if CBS airs a retraction. It really depends on how vociferous CBS is in doing the retraction. Think NYT.
Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-09-10 12:51:01 PM||   2004-09-10 12:51:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Do any of us question, that if it were not for the advent of "new media", that this story would have been buried by the lamestream media - never to see the light of day?

MSM is as credible and hip as the Tammy Fay Baker show. They have fans that love them and that's all they choose to see. They are CLUELESS that the majority of the US population thinks they little more than cheap, transparent, charlatans counting on suckers to turn a quick buck. They won't "wake up" any more than Tammy Fay and her followers did. Their circle will just become smaller and tighter and their airtime will be reduced to 30 or 60 minute cable spots supported by informercials and book sales.

Barbra Waa, waa already looks eeirly similar to Tammy Faye.
Posted by B 2004-09-10 12:51:25 PM||   2004-09-10 12:51:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Phil - WTF? Blaming MS? It's get a grip time - you're ABM t-shirt needs a wash, duud. Sheesh. Wotta stretch.
Posted by .com 2004-09-10 12:53:57 PM||   2004-09-10 12:53:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Oh, God!!! Please make it stop...please make it stop...PLEASE MAKE IT STOP....
Posted by Dan Rather 2004-09-10 12:54:54 PM||   2004-09-10 12:54:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Deacon Blues, I think you are absolutely right - but I think they underestimated the ability of the blogs to conclusively expose this and publicize it.

Mark your calendars. 9/9/04 markes the day that the MSM was confined to their wheelchairs.
Posted by B 2004-09-10 12:57:48 PM||   2004-09-10 12:57:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Daily Kos defends the document's authenticity over at:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603

Frankly, without:

- access to the original documents
- access to comtemporanous documents from Killian's 'letters to myself' file (if such things exist),
- access to someone in the unit who remembers the equipment

I don't see how this subject can be put fully to rest.

Posted by mhw 2004-09-10 1:00:12 PM||   2004-09-10 1:00:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Off Topic: B, can you drop me an email...
Posted by Seafarious  2004-09-10 1:03:08 PM||   2004-09-10 1:03:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 mhw - You're kidding, right? Are you listening to the technical arguments? Just the kerning / leading issues in superscripts (in a smaller font face) and proportional fonts - features not available on typewriters in circa 1972 - ALONE makes this a non-starter.
Posted by .com 2004-09-10 1:06:10 PM||   2004-09-10 1:06:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Dan,

Do I hear the fat lady singing?

Time to consider your options.
Posted by RN  2004-09-10 1:09:04 PM||   2004-09-10 1:09:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Like I would so believe Kos Files over Powerline and LGF's Charles Johnson!
('Course Mickey Kaus doesn't have a pro-Dimocrat agenda...NOT!)
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-09-10 1:11:17 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-09-10 1:11:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 .com

no I'm not kidding

I'm pretty skeptical
I've skeptical of things I want to believe in; even including things I do believe in.

For example, IBM might have made a small batch of times roman, proportional spacing, raised subscript typewriters for the Space program that were surplused and somehow obtained by the 111th.
Posted by mhw 2004-09-10 1:15:42 PM||   2004-09-10 1:15:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 .com, D00d, pull up Microsoft Word for yourself and check... try typing in "4077th" in regular typing mode, and watch as it AUTOMATICALLY turns the "th" into a special superscripted glyph.

Or at least it did when I tried the demo yesterday.

Whoever typed this probably didn't even NOTICE they were doing it at the time.

(I believe this feature/bug/whatever can be turned off if you're technically adroit enough. But you have to actually THINK about what you're doing.)

I guess this is just another illustration that one man's bug is another man's feature. :-)
Posted by Phil Fraering 2004-09-10 1:17:25 PM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]  2004-09-10 1:17:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 mhw...wow! sometimes you just gotta look reality in the face. There's a difference between wearing rose colored glasses and being willfully blind.

I didn't take you for a lemming.
Posted by B 2004-09-10 1:19:26 PM||   2004-09-10 1:19:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 mhw - read elsewhere that there were some expensive proportional spacing typewriters around but not in that font and there were no "th" keys available. Forgeries!
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-10 1:19:26 PM||   2004-09-10 1:19:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 I wonder if a tipping point has been reached. Kinda like "Oh, good, my dog's found the chainsaw."
Posted by Phil Fraering 2004-09-10 1:19:44 PM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]  2004-09-10 1:19:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Rather has reached the Tipping Point. See the recent post "Rather Authenticates Memos"
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-10 1:22:27 PM||   2004-09-10 1:22:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 For example, IBM might have made a small batch of times roman, proportional spacing, raised subscript typewriters for the Space program that were surplused and somehow obtained by the 111th.

O.K., so now the cat's outta da bag. The 111th was assigned to fly air security over Area 54, giving them access to computer systems on board the Alien space craft located there.
Posted by RN  2004-09-10 1:22:51 PM||   2004-09-10 1:22:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 B
not a lemming more of a probabilitiest.

At the moment there is a greater than 99% chance that they were forgeries.

But you must remember that the law of large numbers assures us that every day a few billion to one chances hit.
Posted by mhw 2004-09-10 1:24:50 PM||   2004-09-10 1:24:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 fair enough - but your odds would be much, much, better betting the farm on a lottery ticket.
Posted by B 2004-09-10 1:31:04 PM||   2004-09-10 1:31:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 ... or capturing Putin for $20 million.
Posted by Dar  2004-09-10 1:33:43 PM||   2004-09-10 1:33:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 B
I should also tell you I like your handle.
Its what Faith called Buffy.
Posted by mhw 2004-09-10 1:38:19 PM||   2004-09-10 1:38:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Well, there is also the matter of vertical spacing. The spacing in this alleged memo matches that of Word, but does not match ANY known typewriters OR typesetting systems from the early 70s.

Remember, in a typewriter, what is, is -- the spacings can't change except in increments of a fixed height = to the typehead size.
Posted by anon 2004-09-10 1:49:04 PM||   2004-09-10 1:49:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 RN :

I think the "humans" in this photo are the ones with IBM proportional type font typewriters.

Area 54
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-10 1:50:52 PM||   2004-09-10 1:50:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Anon, Selectrics had continuous feed platens where you could push in on the left side and adjust with the right to any height. That's how they did the form feed precisely for each line on the memo meticulously adjusting the leading to resemble wordprocessors to be invented 20 years later. Pretty clever.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-10 1:55:50 PM||   2004-09-10 1:55:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 That's them alright!

Quick! Dan, see if you can get an interview. Something about seeing GW at the Area 54 canteen having a beer, while moving his arms in circles.

"watch closely, the wrist with the watch is the boggie"
Posted by RN  2004-09-10 1:56:46 PM||   2004-09-10 1:56:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Maybe the fat lady will eat Dan Rather and end the misery for us all?
Posted by Silentbrick  2004-09-10 2:39:24 PM||   2004-09-10 2:39:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 Slashdot does cover it. The leftist who run it just choose to leave it off the front page.


Bush Service Memos Questioned

Some of the links are pretty nice.
Look at this one comparing Msword typed document to Rathers....
Image with Rather's document in Red and MS-Word one in Blue

Case closed! No question of forgery with partial spacing and such.. If I go dig an old Royal or Underword - or even a Selectric out of the basement ... fonts, spacing nothing look like that word processed Demorcatic Forgery.
Posted by 3dc 2004-09-10 6:53:56 PM||   2004-09-10 6:53:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Gad-zooks 3dc -

There aren't any blue background dots.

Guess we are in trouble. . . . .NOT
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-10 7:05:51 PM||   2004-09-10 7:05:51 PM|| Front Page Top

21:46 UFO
21:46 UFO
21:19 UFO
20:02 UFO
19:47 UFO
19:47 UFO
19:41 Anonymous6390
19:41 Anonymous6390
16:25 UFO
16:25 UFO
16:22 UFO
16:22 UFO
16:19 UFO
16:19 UFO
16:15 UFO
16:15 UFO
16:11 UFO
16:11 UFO
16:04 Unknown Flying Object
16:04 Unknown Flying Object
16:02 UFO
16:02 UFO
16:00 UFO
16:00 UFO









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com