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2004-05-16 Home Front: WoT

Rumsfeld Established Secret Program to Photo POWs in Sexual Positions

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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-16 10:59:03 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I am to the point that, I do not give a flying fuck how humiliated a bunch of murderers feel. If sexual humiliation is what it takes to make them talk and save the lives of Allied troops and of truly innocent Iraqis, I say DO IT!

Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-05-16 11:57:25 AM|| 2004-05-16 11:57:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 If they feel sexually humiliated I dont really care either..they can thank their bloody lucky stars we didn't decide to flay them alive or put them into plastic shredders or shoot every third one of them just for sh*ts and giggles. Comparisons of us to other dictators and torture regimes are false. We are not always good guys, but we damn straight aren't the most evil ones out there.

Posted by Valentine 2004-05-16 2:42:47 PM|| 2004-05-16 2:42:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Exclusive: same white porch chair turns up in different terror videos, proving that Mossad, Charles Johnson and the CIA are responsible for all terror blamed on Muslims. Marc Perkel for President. "Get Out of the Dark and Go With Marc."

http://marc.perkel.com/archives/000233.html

Posted by Muslim Lover 2004-05-16 3:05:39 PM|| 2004-05-16 3:05:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Keep in mind Seymour Hersh is a Chomskyite, a habitual liar, and in general a very nasty piece of work.

Posted by virginian 2004-05-16 3:06:12 PM|| 2004-05-16 3:06:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I am to the point that, I do not give a flying fuck how humiliated a bunch of murderers feel.

But the question is: would you give a flying fuck about how humiliated a bunch of Iraqi non-murderers would feel? And whose word exactly are you taking that all those humiliated were "murderers"? Has there even been such a claim made by the prison officials, that all the people there are "murderers"? Or are you just feverishly hoping that everyone there is a murderer, lest it turns out that some of them aren't?

If sexual humiliation is what it takes to make them talk and save the lives of Allied troops and of truly innocent Iraqis, I say DO IT!

If these techniques have brought any result so far, we've not yet been told about it.

My guess is that such tactics have probably cost the lives of Americans and innocent Iraqis. If I was an Iraqi and I knew that the Americans were actually being *civilised* with suspects, I'd inform them of suspicious moves I'd noted -- if I was wrong, then the suspect would just get some hours or days of harsh-but-not-too-harsh treatment and then he'd be let go. Not too bad, to possibly save the lives of many more innocents.

But if I was an Iraqi and I knew that the Americans were in the habit of torturing and humiliating people, no way would I hand over some possibly innocent fellow Iraqi to their hands, to be sexually molested, humiliated, tortured by Americans. In that case I would want to be absolutely certain before I told any American about *any* suspicious Iraqis. Which means I wouldn't inform them until it was too late for it to make a difference.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 3:37:58 PM|| 2004-05-16 3:37:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Victory Now Please TROLL 2004-05-16 3:55:31 PM|| 2004-05-16 3:55:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Aris, what you say is true, that many Iraqis will turn away from cooperation as a result of this scandal. But how many? I'd venture that the number of Iraqis informing Americans about suspicious activity is very, very small. The ones that do are doing so under tremendous risk, and they are probably motivated by reasons that are far more important than some one-time prisoner abuse scandal.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-16 4:14:58 PM|| 2004-05-16 4:14:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Aris,

Stop trolling and go finish those Olympic venues. We Americans are coming over there to win a bunch of medals and we don't like shoddy facilities!

Posted by JDB 2004-05-16 4:42:37 PM|| 2004-05-16 4:42:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 "As it stands right now, it is clear that this is a nation full of crying women."

Insert crying Dimocrats and you have the picture.

Posted by Bill Nelson 2004-05-16 4:47:36 PM|| 2004-05-16 4:47:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 JDB> Unlike what you may think, "troll" doesn't mean "person that disagrees with you". It doesn't even mean "person that annoys you". And (though I know that this may surprise you), it doesn't even mean "person who disagreed with the Iraq invasion".

I'm not a troll. Even though I'm quite certain that I'm a nuisance to many of you who only like to hear the echoes of your own thoughts reaffirmed, that's not the definition of a troll either.

And as a sidenote, since I'm not a construction worker I can't "go finish those Olympic venues".

Now why don't you stop being a little nationalistic fuck instead?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 4:53:09 PM|| 2004-05-16 4:53:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Would someone kindly take the time to explain to me the difference between the hooded folk who offed Berg, the hooded folk who formed homoerotic pyramids in the two cell blocks set aside for the hardest of the hardcore at Abu G, and the hooded propagandists in the LEFTmedia???

Posted by Garrison 2004-05-16 4:54:01 PM|| 2004-05-16 4:54:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Aris isn't a troll. He's a bigot.

Get the terms straight, people.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-16 5:23:22 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-16 5:23:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 I'm proud to be a nationalistic f*ck!
(Clearly, nationalism is the ultimate sin to Katsaris.)
Throughout our 228 year history, Americans have done a lot of good in the world and very little bad.
We're a good people.
This "article" by Seymour "My Lai Massacre" Hersh is a pile of horseshit and has already been refuted by the Pentagon.
And what we do to Iraqi detainees isn't based on what the "average Iraqi" will do next based on the prisoners' treatment--all Iraqis know well that whatever we do to their fellow Iraqis in Abu Ghraib can't begin to touch what Saddam had done to thousands of their countrymen in the same place.
Why do you post here, AK, you America-hating, Communist troll?
This is an American blog and most of the posters are proud to be Americans--why do you come here if you continually have a problem with that?
Islamist terrorists declared war on America, our nation.
We are fighting back as a nation, with the help of 36 other countries.
Most of us are proud to do so--I had ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War.
My dad fought in WWII, when Hitler managed to round up 38,000 of most of Greece's Jews.
Stop with the USA bashing. Now.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 5:25:42 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 5:25:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Robert Crawford> No, you are a troll, and Jen's a bigot. Learn the meaning of the words.

Jen> "Why do you post here, AK, you America-hating, Communist troll? "

I'm not America-hating, I'm not Communist, and I'm not a troll. I dare you to find me anything of mine that I *actually* said, not of the things that you *imagined* me (in your diseased little mind) saying, that indicates any of the three above.

"This is an American blog "

It's located in the *Inter*net, and I didn't see an "Only Americans should post" disclaimer.

"and most of the posters are proud to be Americans--why do you come here if you continually have a problem with that?"

I don't continually have a problem with that. I only have a problem with that when you are using American pride as an excuse to ignore or distort facts. The same way that I now have a problem with it when you are using American pride as an excuse to call me a troll, a Communist and America-hating when I'm neither of the three.

"Islamist terrorists declared war on America, our nation. We are fighting back as a nation, with the help of 36 other countries?"

Did I ever deny that?

"Stop with the USA bashing."

I don't bash the USA. Except in the fevered imagininings of your diseased mind, ofcourse.

"Clearly, nationalism is the ultimate sin to Katsaris"

One of the ultimate sin's most deadly expressions, yeah.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 5:40:29 PM|| 2004-05-16 5:40:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 I never use American pride to ignore or distort facts.
I do use American self-interest as a guide, though.
In our dealings with other countries, we think too much about what's good for them and not what's good for us.
Time to get selfish.
If you bastards on the Left didn't want America to rise up and be filled with national fury and take it to war, you should have talked Bin Laden out of declaring war on America.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 5:44:28 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 5:44:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 If you bastards on the Left didn't want America to rise up and be filled with national fury and take it to war,

Actually I did want America to rise up in fury and take it to war. So there's yet *another* assumption of yours about me shot down.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 5:48:14 PM|| 2004-05-16 5:48:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 You are a nut, Katsaris--one of those crazy Greeks that's had sex with too many goats, drunk to much ouzo and who was born with feta cheese for brains.
Whatsa matter?
Didn't the Americans tip you well enough when you worked as a drinks waiter on that cruise ship?

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 5:51:31 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 5:51:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Jen, you might want to calm down; I've noticed you've been very touchy during the last few weeks. I've disagreed with stuff that Aris has said, too, but that doesn't give me an excuse to blast him. You only do that when they say something truly stupid. And as for this being an American blog, so what? We need the opinions of others. We need to talk with them. We need to learn from them. And they need to learn from us. We're not doing any favors to those who come here wanting to discuss if we blast them for having different opinions. It's only to be expected. Somewhere between your opinion, and Aris's, and even Murat's, is the truth. And we need to find that before time runs out for all of us.

Having said that, I do agree with you that we should be proud to Americans. We should respect and defend our national heritage, because if we don't, if it isn't important to us, then some one else will be glad to come along and replace it for us.

I don't mean to reprimand you, not at all. Whatever the reason (and there are many, or so it is claimed), America doesn't have a great reputation in the world. It's a reputation that is undeserved. We aren't perfect, but when you compare us to other countries, we're light-years ahead of them. What we need to do is to prove to others that Americans aren't the ignorant and arrogant bigots that the left and most of the world so often claims - while keeping our best interests in mind all the while. We need to correct others when they're wrong, but (hard as this is for me to admit, as I'm someone who claims to always be right) we do need to allow for the possibility that we might not be entirely right, either. And if that's the case, we need to fix it. That's how America got to be great: fixing her mistakes instead of hiding them.

America didn't start this war, but we do need to end it, and it's people like you, Jen, who help to remind us of just how important it is that America be kept first and foremost in our minds. Just don't let it get out of hand, or you'll find yourself becoming like the bastards we're fighting.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-16 5:54:28 PM|| 2004-05-16 5:54:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I see you're down to the incoherent insults stage. Faster than I expected, though that's where you always end up in.

I wonder -- do you even know what you are angry about? How exactly did I supposedly bash America in this thread? When I said that I believe that the abuse at the prison may have cost American lives, while others claimed that it may have saved them? I genuinely believe what I said. So how is that America-bashing, please let me know?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 5:56:05 PM|| 2004-05-16 5:56:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Aris is certainly not a troll. He makes a legitimate point and its a lot more coherent than most of the frothing at the mouth found in the mainstream media, not to mention some of the people attacking him here. Disclaimer: Aris used to drive me totally nuts, until one day I realized that he is representative of a large section of society although considerably more articulate and knowleable than most. Love or hate Aris, but be aware that a lot of people think like him. Fail to engage with people like Aris and you will lose.

Posted by Phil B 2004-05-16 6:03:34 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:03:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Phil. I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with you about AK.
He's never managed to put together a coherent thought or position to "engage" with him on; it's always vitriolic, inchoate raging at most of the rest of us who think what we think, based on our research, convictions, extensive reading, reasoned thought, patriotism and Conservative ideology.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 6:08:39 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 6:08:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Aris is right that the prison abuse may cost lives. Think about it from a soldier's point of view. Would you rather your enemy surrender or fight to the death? If he keeps on fighting because he'd rather die than show up in photos on the BBC website, you're more likely to die too.

Please stick around, Aris--this American is interested in hearing from you.

Posted by James 2004-05-16 6:09:36 PM|| [http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com] 2004-05-16 6:09:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Aris is part of the segment of the world's population known as "bitter losers". He's more interested in crowing about the failings of the US than dealing with the failings of his own society.

Aris -- the problem I have with you is that you're entirely too quick to believe crap like the allegations Hersh has made. Ya know those kooks that planted bombs in Greece last week? Hersh is a cheerleader for people like that. He gets off on smashing society. He'll believe any story you tell him, and the uglier it is, the better, so long as it's something bad about the US.

I will apologize for calling you a bigot; I read entirely too much into your first few comments. I've run into entirely too many Europeans who think Europe is the end-all and be-all of culture, and sometimes I see (or think I see) that attitude in your comments.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-16 6:13:32 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-16 6:13:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Aris=smart guy, not a troll, and doesn't give a fuck about prevailing Greek or European attitudes; a rare rare beast where he's from I assure you. I am a fan.

And since I do my share of trolling myself, I know one when I see one.

Posted by BMN 2004-05-16 6:17:27 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:17:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 BMN, are you sure you want to proudly proclaim the fact that you're a troll?

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-16 6:19:12 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:19:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 I'm not a troll--I bait trolls. That's trolling. I'm not proud of it particularly but it can be fun.

Aris is no troll.

Posted by BMN 2004-05-16 6:20:33 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:20:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 "America doesn't have a great reputation in the world."
Actually, it does have a great reputation--I've travelled extensively in Europe, China, Egypt, the Middle East and the former Soviet Union.
To believe otherwise is to buy into the Leftist myths.
"Just don't let it get out of hand, or you'll find yourself becoming like the bastards we're fighting."
This got "out of hand" on 9/11 when 3,000 American civilians were slaughtered in cold blood just minding their own business peacefully.
We will *never* be like the scum we're fighting and never have been.
And that goes double for me personally.
To me Katsaris embodies the Ungrateful, Complaining, Palm Out European with the added twist that Greeks tend to hate us more than the others because they think we favor Turkey (their age-old enemy since the Pelopenesian Wars) too much.
I am sick of these people who want our tourism, our foreign aid and our trade but want to tell us on a daily basis how full of sh*t we are.
And the more we do this navel-gazing and whining about
"Why do they hate us?" and "What if we're 'mean' to the enemy? I'm afraid we'll become just like them if we actually fight back!", the closer we come to defeat in this war.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 6:20:43 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 6:20:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 And Seymour Hersh is King Troll, as far as I'm concerned. Remember his "reporting" on TWA 800?

Posted by BMN 2004-05-16 6:23:21 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:23:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 When I said Aris had a legitimate point, I didn't say I agreed with him, I don't, but I do think his arguement is on the right playing field (can't think of a better metaphor). If there is any real news in the prisoner abuse story (except the Left's desperate need to find a rationalization for their belief system) it is the importance of the rule of law and behaviour consistent with a civil society. What happened should be a lesson about easily they can breakdown and how much we lose when they do.

If there is any lesson in the Iraq experience, it should be that democracy and civil society is not something you can switch like a lightbulb. It takes years to build. Was Iraq worth trying? Absolutely! Will it succeed? I genuinely don't know? But I do know there is a long way to go.

Posted by Phil B 2004-05-16 6:32:05 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:32:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Robert Crawford> Aris is part of the segment of the world's population known as "bitter losers". He's more interested in crowing about the failings of the US than dealing with the failings of his own society.

I'm interested in dealing with the failings in my own society, but I'm mainly interested in dealing with those problems in forums that Greek people frequent. I could discuss them with you, but what would you know about e.g. the role of the Greek Radio-television Council in promoting censorship? What would you know about the relationship about the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Archbishopry of Athens, and the state's interaction with the church's doing? What would you know about the issue of the new identity-cards or the Kapodistrias plan of district-unification? You could hardly participate in such a debate, I'd just be speaking and you'd be either nodding or flaming. And since you don't vote in Greece, you'd not be having much influence in matters even if I convinced you.

So, here I talk about *international* issues instead. Which means talking about America when America is involved in some international issue, and talking about Russia when Russia is involved in some such issue, and talking about whichever country comes up as prominent in international issues. And I also talk quite about the EU ofcourse.

Aris -- the problem I have with you is that you're entirely too quick to believe crap like the allegations Hersh has made.

I didn't even comment (one way or another) on the allegations that Hersh made, exactly because I don't know how much truth there is in them. My participation on this thread began when I responded to another person's comment.

I will apologize for calling you a bigot; I read entirely too much into your first few comments

And I apologize for calling you a troll.

I've run into entirely too many Europeans who think Europe is the end-all and be-all of culture, and sometimes I see (or think I see) that attitude in your comments.

It's not the end-all and be-all of culture. But currently it's one half of Western civilisation -- and the contempt that so many people here have for it often annoys me. By the nature of the civil and political rights that both Europe and America holds dear, they are natural allies. If you ignore that, if you lump Europe together with America's enemies just because they don't agree with you on the Iraq issue, have contempt for those supposedly appeasing Euros, and you're yourselves limiting the chances that Western civilisation has to end up victorious in the face of the threats facing it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 6:32:42 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:32:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 BMN: Difference between troll and trolling noted and logged. Thanks.

Jen: Hey, I think Europe's being stupid, too; I agree with quite a bit of what you say, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that a little bit of moderation - not in the message itself but perhaps in the way it's presented - makes them more likely to listen to what we have to say. Attack them and they'll retreat to their Fortress of Stupidity; discuss with them and maybe they'll understand (and if they don't, then you tell 'em how dumb they are).

And I don't think we'll ever be like the scum we're fighting, not if we prosecute those of us who step out of line and remember that we do stand for something more. It's that something more that makes life worth living, and that keeps us from turning on each other - something that the Muslim world has never figured out, and in fact wants to destroy.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-16 6:37:26 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:37:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 As good people strip away the rose colored glasses, it becomes more and more clear that the little Aris' of the world have nothing to offer but blame.

Blame and shame - the name of the Arab and EU game. Aris has no answers, no solutions, nothing to offer but blame.

You may get a rise out of posters on this board, Aris, but the people who really matter have opened their eyes to the fact that that the Islamists are savages and must be delt with as such.

Welcome to the year 2000. Your 20th Century dialog is yesterdays blather. Yawn. It's tiresome to hear you desperately attempt to maintain the moral superiority that you still believe you hold but have long since lost.

We've moved beyond you Aris. Blame and shame away...we listen the same way a husband listens to a nagging wife as he waits for the divorce papers to go through.

Posted by B 2004-05-16 6:40:34 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:40:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Phil, BMN, James> thanks.

B> One thing I've noted about you is that you never quote me when you respond. And in your case, the reason for that is that you never reply to what I actually say. Your post here could be equally well placed to any other thread I've ever participated in, because it yet again failed to refer to anything that I *actually* said. I supposedly offered "blame and shame"? Not in this thread atleast. I have no solutions? Actually I have suggested solutions in several occasions, regarding what to do about several different issues of the WOT.

So, yet again, as others have done occasionally, and as *you* are doing on purpose, you just don't care about my actual words and opinion and are just trying to stereotype me instead in order to fit your preconceptions of me.

Not gonna play that game, sweetie.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 6:54:10 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:54:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 the contempt that so many people here have for it often annoys me.

And what annoys most of us here, is the irrational ranting and raving of the USA haters in Europe. So it's the chicken or the egg argument. What came first?

Europe and America ... are natural allies.

I think this myth has been put to rest about a year ago. Or at least its truthfullness severly questioned.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-16 6:57:39 PM|| 2004-05-16 6:57:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 "And what annoys most of us here, is the irrational ranting and raving of the USA haters in Europe."

Good. It should. The irrational ranting and raving of USA haters in Europe annoys me too.

It's just that the irrational ranting and raving of Europe haters in USA also annoys me.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 7:05:01 PM|| 2004-05-16 7:05:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 In actual fact, AK, our contempt (Hate's too strong a word) for EUrope is quite rational--there are quite a few reasons, all of which you've been given here many times.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 7:13:44 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 7:13:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Not gonna play that game.

The point is, Aris, we aren't playing your game anymore. We are going to crush the Islamofanatics and your EU socialism is failed.

Besides, nobody cares about your solutions to end terrorism anymore than they care about mine. What matters is that Americans who do matter and who do have the power to act are going to do what it takes to stop the fanatics from ending our freedoms. And we, the nationalistic fucks, are going to support them en masse. I live among the LLL and I can tell you that they have changed dramatically in their opinions as they come to realize just how savage, backwards and destructive the Islamists are to the civilization that we live in. The UNSCAM has shattered their illusions about the Europeans having anything to offer us. And while the hardcore among them can't let go of their need to hate Bush, they can't even get enough support to float a radio station in 2 of the largest cities in our nation. That tells you where the majority of us stand.

You are just a meaningless armchair quarterback, as am I. But the difference between you and me is that I'm willing to back the people who are making a difference. You are busy nagging them with your "brilliant ideas" that are failed holdovers from the last century.

And...it is a fact that blame is the name of the EU and Arab (and Aris) game. Believe or don't believe it. It's still true.

Posted by B 2004-05-16 7:15:33 PM|| 2004-05-16 7:15:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Jen> And just as many times I've countergiven the ways that most of those reasons could also apply, only slightly modified, to the USA itself. France supporting a dictator? So has USA, in the recent past. Germany causing the holocaust 60 years ago? USA used to have slavery 140 years ago. Europe has too much unemployment? USA has too much of a crime-rate.

And so forth, and so forth. And that's not USA-bashing, Jen, because then you'll also have to accuse me of Europe-bashing.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 7:20:22 PM|| 2004-05-16 7:20:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 B> So now you've changed your problem with me from "you don't offer solutions", to "you don't support the people that I support".

We're coming closer to the truth.

If by "support" you mean "I don't want them to commit what I see as foolish mistakes", you are right, I don't support them.

But if by support you mean "wish the best for them" then you are wrong, I most definitely wished for a quick American victory in Iraq and a defeat of the various fascist groups there, past and present.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 7:26:36 PM|| 2004-05-16 7:26:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 "I'm interested in dealing with the failings in my own society, but I'm mainly interested in dealing with those problems in forums that Greek people frequent."
That leaves out RB.
I suggest you take your own council and confine yourself to those Greek forums where you profess to know something about what you're babbling about.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 7:27:24 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 7:27:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Sorry Jen, I'm also a citizen of the world, not just of Greece. If Fred asks me to leave I'll do so since this is his site, but you don't have the authority.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 7:31:17 PM|| 2004-05-16 7:31:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Your professed predilections for fora are just like your views, nothing but pure BS.
What's sad is that I don't even think you're representative of a lot of Greeks, but on this forum, that's what you've become.
Too bad for Greece.
Don't expect a lot of tourists for the Olympics, if the U.S. even decides to send our team.
Good thing I saw the Parthenon a long time ago.
What was the last remarkable thing Greece produced after 5th Century B.C. black-figured vases?
*crickets*

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 7:37:38 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 7:37:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 . By the nature of the civil and political rights that both Europe and America holds dear, they are natural allies.

I think and pray you are right on this.

Posted by Shipman 2004-05-16 7:39:40 PM|| 2004-05-16 7:39:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Jen? Please STFU.

Posted by Fury 7 2004-05-16 7:41:05 PM|| 2004-05-16 7:41:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 F7, I will never shut up about or be ashamed of being an American.
And you know I'm right or you wouldn't be so bothered.
Guess I'm disturbing your "One World" Kumbaya vibes.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 7:48:58 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 7:48:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Jen> You constantly strive to prove me right about your person.

What was the last remarkable thing Greece produced after 5th Century B.C. black-figured vases?

Well, not that this has to do anything with whether *I* am right or wrong in my views but it's been said that the Pap test has saved millions of lives.

In short, it'd be politer if your first gave me a chance to respond before letting the crickets sing.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 7:52:39 PM|| 2004-05-16 7:52:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Sorry to get in the middle of a "personal attack" thread but. . .
virginian > Keep in mind Seymour Hersh is a Chomskyite, a habitual liar
Hersh is NOT a Chomskyite or even necessarily a leftist.
He IS an opportunistic liar, who is well known for creating mythical sources. He has done it to both left and right. His only goal is to make himself look good and impress Chomsky-like people. The bad part is that it works, and he gets recognition from others in the press. Fortunately, a lot of 'creative journalists' are getting caught and the overall trust in the press is dropping way down. Very soon they will need to change their ways or find new jobs.

Posted by Urako 2004-05-16 8:14:48 PM|| 2004-05-16 8:14:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 I don't agree with alot of things Aris sez,but do we have to beat him into he ground when he has an opin.He don't agree with you Jen probably never will does that mean smash him.

Posted by djohn66 2004-05-16 8:19:52 PM|| 2004-05-16 8:19:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 How about we bury the hatchet on the condition that Aris waves the American flag on opening day ceremonies at the olympics.

On second thought, since I generally don't wish violence on anyone, let's just agree to disagree :)

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-16 8:28:15 PM|| 2004-05-16 8:28:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 No Aris, what I was saying was that you don't matter. What matters is that American might will smash the Islamofascists regardless of your snotty little comments or the EU attempts to make them feel bigger by lashing out at the US.

Despite what you may read in the American media, all Americans are becoming united against the threat against us. We have the will, we have the might and we have the money. We've been holding back, but with each atrocity, we harden our resolve and become more committed.

Posted by B 2004-05-16 8:32:23 PM|| 2004-05-16 8:32:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 B> No Aris, what I was saying was that you don't matter.

But I wouldn't "matter" even if I agreed with you on every single comment you made, so that's clearly not the reason of your dislike of me. The reason is that I disagree with you.

What matters is that American might will smash the Islamofascists

Hopefully. But not certainly. Any war can be lost from lack of means, or of will, or of *wisdom*. Your country and administration may have the first two, but does it have the third?

"We have the will, we have the might and we have the money. "

Oy vey. Yeah, yeah, indeed. Did I ever question your will, your might or your money? It's very good that with each atrocity you harden your resolve.

But though resolve and might are needed, they are not *enough*, when wisdom is lacking.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 8:43:09 PM|| 2004-05-16 8:43:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 *sigh* when wisdom is lacking

Oh boy, here we go. Does this mean that Euros are genetically smarter? Is that your viewpoint?

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-16 8:58:19 PM|| 2004-05-16 8:58:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Are you joking?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 9:03:28 PM|| 2004-05-16 9:03:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Aris, you say that I don't like you because I disagree with you. Where are you examples that say I disagree with you. Prove that I disagree with you.

snicker.

Posted by B 2004-05-16 9:12:23 PM|| 2004-05-16 9:12:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Aris, you do often come across as espousing a position of 'Americans are so unsophisticated unlike us wise Europeans.'

Posted by Phil B 2004-05-16 9:13:30 PM|| 2004-05-16 9:13:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 B> You said that American might will smash the Islamofascists. I said that's not yet certain.

That's disagreement. Your attempt at humour isn't working.

Phil B> I think that 90% of people are idiots or just plain ignorant, regardless of continent.

How that shows is revealed in governmental policy differs. I think that European governments are often idiotic in regards to economics. I think that American governments are often idiotic in their attitudes towards the application of military force and its mid to long-term consequences.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 9:20:33 PM|| 2004-05-16 9:20:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 Oh Aris,and by what definition are we idiotic towards mil. ops, yours.I don't see Greece coming up with anything for the WOT or any solutions,so if we are the ones dying I think we get to say how it goes.

Posted by djohn66 2004-05-16 9:52:35 PM|| 2004-05-16 9:52:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 Phil B - that's Aris' whole gig. Only Aris thinks we are so stupid as to believe that he is actually trying to have a discussion rather than get some meaning in his meaningless life by talking down his nose at the silly, foolish Americans.

Aris - I now remember why I always scan over your posts. You have nothing of interest to say, only your feeble attempts to make yourself feel superior. You need to get a real life so you don't need to come in here to puff yourself up.

Posted by B 2004-05-16 9:55:22 PM|| 2004-05-16 9:55:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 I am bummed to see such a flamefest in normally thoughtful Rantburg.

I agree with Aris that it is bad that the lack of discipline in the Abu Garib and the release of the photos has offended the Iraqis whose cooperation we need. This was indeed unhelpful.

HOWEVER, when interrogating hardcore enemy prisoners, I hope that we are taking full advantage of the fact that they come from a misogynistic, homophobic culture. "Sexual humiliation" may well the ideal way to break certain prisoners down.

I saw one quote where a prisoner said he'd rather be killed than treated like a woman. That might give our interrogator something to work with.

I recall several stories revealing the sexual hangups of the 9/11 hijackers. Atta clearly despised women and may have been a repressed homosexual. If we had picked him up, interrogation tactics based on 'sexual humiliation' would have been worth a try.

Gen. Boykin, who has been criticized for taking his job too religiously, has clearly studied the enemy to learn his weaknesses. It would be a shame if the prison scandal eliminates a potentially valuable way to extract information.

Posted by JAB 2004-05-16 10:31:50 PM|| 2004-05-16 10:31:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 This is the best open source intel site on the web. I learn from everyone here, even the obvious Islamists (from them I learn our enemies' prejudices and blind spots).

I want to hear what non-Americans have to say. I often disagree with them, but I still want to hear what they say.

Some time back, LGF ran a poll on whether or not to abandon the Gaza settlements. A clear majority of the _readers_ voted in favor of the pull out. The forum _participants_ were taken aback. They shouldn't have been, since they ran everyone with a dissenting viewpoint off the board months before.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-16 10:37:04 PM|| 2004-05-16 10:37:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Oh Aris,and by what definition are we idiotic towards mil. ops

Well, in Iraq, you attacked the least securable country in the region, the one that'd offer the least benefits in case of victory (and even those small benefits would only occur after a decade or more), the one that'd offer the greatest losses in case of defeat, the one that was only periphally connected to support of terrorism, and the main argument (currently atleast) for why you went there is in order to be in a place where they have you surrounded from all sides.

In Kosovo America with its bombings ended up defacto supporting the terrorists of UCK. You didn't actually stop the ethnic cleansing, you simply ensured that it'd be the Albanians that'd ethnically cleanse the Serbs rather than vice versa and you also provided the UCK terrorists a base from which they could launch attacks to FYRO Macedonia, thus initiating a new civil war in a new country.

I had supported the invasion of Haiti, but even that in retrospect seems to have been a mistake since Aristide later revealed himself a butcher. That one may be excused however as he hadn't by that time.

"I don't see Greece coming up with anything for the WOT or any solutions,so if we are the ones dying I think we get to say how it goes."

What does Greece have to do with my opinions? Has nationalism rotted your brain *so* much

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 10:37:55 PM|| 2004-05-16 10:37:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Yes I am a Nationalist,so are alot of Americans better get used to it.

Posted by djohn66 2004-05-16 10:49:53 PM|| 2004-05-16 10:49:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 And so are a lot of Greeks, unfortunately.

But as long as you are a nationalist and thus only think of people as expressions of their nations rather than as individuals, then you won't be able to understand that what Greece has or hasn't done and whether Greece (or Europe) is better or worse, is actually quite irrelevant to my arguments and any valid refutation of them.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 10:55:12 PM|| 2004-05-16 10:55:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 Well, in Iraq, you attacked the least securable country in the region

And you of course, being a European, knew the outcome in advance? Perhaps that explains a lot of Europe's impotency: you presuppose failure in everything, so why bother striving for change, for the better?

the one that'd offer the least benefits in case of victory

A prosperous, democratic Iraq is not a benefit???

the main argument (currently atleast) for why you went there is in order to be in a place where they have you surrounded from all sides

What??? The reason for going into Iraq was multi-faceted with the potential benefits of an invasion outweighing the negatives or risks. That's why the decision was made. The chapter on Iraq hasn't been finished yet, so don't be too quick to put this into the 'military failures' category.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-16 11:04:16 PM|| 2004-05-16 11:04:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 I hadn't thought of this before, but the Abu Ghraib guards may simply have been setting up pictures for blackmailing known terrorists, so that they would return and spy on their erstwhile comrades. These are tried and true techniques for recruiting spies from the other side. (Get incriminating pictures of enemy personnel and then blackmail them).

None of this any different from what happened during the Cold War. Compromising homosexuals was a prime technique, until both sides made it a non-issue by not making homosexuality a disqualifying factor for sensitive positions. In honor-bound Muslim societies, such pictures would have been dynamite and a useful tactic. It's pretty weird how the press hasn't covered any of the stuff about classic espionage techniques. There's nothing particularly new about these tactics.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-05-16 11:08:49 PM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-05-16 11:08:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Speaking of nationalism, apparently this is something to be ashamed of in Europe. Flag waving is considered...embarrassing. Unless you're a football/soccer fan. Aris wouldn't like America.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-16 11:11:23 PM|| 2004-05-16 11:11:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 "And you of course, being a European, knew the outcome in advance? "

What does my being a European have to do with anything? You keep on wanting to represent me as much of bigot as some other posters here are.

But, as for whether I knew the outcome in advance, I knew that the Iranian-backed Islamofascists would make a bid for power, yeah. Everyone knew that who had eyes to see, the same way everyone knew that the three ethnic groups of Iraq would be hell to keep them together and independent.

I had admittedly not expected it to be so soon as it ended up being, I thought it'd be in a few years time instead. But still. (though the SCIRI group may still may such a bid in a few years if the Sadr group fails now)

"A prosperous, democratic Iraq is not a benefit???"

First of all, yeah, it's a benefit but not nearly as much of a benefit as a prosperous and democratic Syria or Iran would be.

And secondly, due in part to its location, a prosperous democratic Iraq is nearly impossible to happen until *after* the War on Terror is won.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 11:16:24 PM|| 2004-05-16 11:16:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 Aris, you are wrong.

Point by point (not that you deserve the attention but maybe a public thrashing might wake you up, or expose your denial problem).

1) its NOT the least securable country in the region. Iran is.

Seacoast, and mountainous borders on all other sides, and covered infiltration overland routes all over the place.

Iraq has large expanses of desert, which are quite easy to patrol and secure, if you throw enough manpower and technology at it. Optical, thermal and infared work quite well in that environment.

The latter was lacking (an actual effort to secure these borders), and certainly the US Dept of Defense can be faulted at underestimating the lack of enthusiasm of the Iraqis, which resulted in porous borders from Syria and Iran, which are belatedly being slowly but surely closed.

So you're dead wrong there.

Greatest potential losses in a defeat? Care to substantiate that? Military victory was relatively casualty free - and quickly accomplished thanks to the elan and capabilities of the US and British and Allied armed forces. As for the occupation and pacification, current casualty rates are miniscule compared to those of Korea, Vietnam, and WW2.

As for you claims of Peripherally involved in terror - you are so wrong here its laughable! Consider that Abu Nidal was there, and the number of terror training areas in Iraq prior to the war was second only to pre-war Afghanistan, and currently only Iran and possibly Sudan come close. Add to that the well documented (pre-war, by the US, UK, France and Russia) pursuit of WMD in violation of multiple UN resolutions, including throwing out UN inspectors, and add in Iraqi funding of Palestenian Fanatic Boomers and its pretty clear that Iraq is a participant in terror.

But almost as important is the geopolitical area: are you truly so self blinded that you cannot see its the geographic hub of the area? Iran can no longer support Hezbullah in Syria and Israel directly - it must now send funds (with the potential for tracing or loss - its easier for middle-men to hijack bearer bonds and cash for private use than it is barrels of explosives), or else they have to make shipments indirectly by way of possibly unfriendly third party nations. Similarly, Syria cannot help the Taliban in Afghanistan or anyone in Sudan. The lack of a land route thruough the center of the region is definitly cutting into operations over there, the hyped-up news[paper reports notwithstanding: with a Liberated Iraq athwart the land route, terror is forced into using much more easily coutnered methods. A simple intelligent serach of naval searches and seizures should show the vulnerability and transparency of sea-based shipment compared to the clandestine land routes.

And finally, Iraq was the right choice geopolitically because it puts imminse pressures on Iran and Syrai - history teaches that dictatorships cannot survive intact in the face of an adjacent thriving large democracy.

As for former Yugoslavia, its got you Greeks scared shitless in that they could tear off a part of Greece or embroil Grgeece in a terror war with seperatists on its own soil. You're as clean in the former Yugoslav republic as the Turks are in Kurdistan - which is to say, not at all. You bring nationalism to this by criticising us as a nation, then using nationalism as an excuse to fling factless biased epithests at the US leadership: you tar us with it, so be ready to see it coming back at you. So why do you not expect to be held accountable for Greek nationalisim in return? You are a democracy aren't you ? (except when it comes to your fascist behavior toward Turks on Cypress)

So, care to slither away, or do you want more?

Posted by OldSpook 2004-05-16 11:18:13 PM|| 2004-05-16 11:18:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 I've been around RB for awhile and haven't posted a lot lately because of a new job and other commitments. That said.....
Frankly Jen and Aris, I am tired of the serial bitch-slap contest that occurs every time you both land in the same thread. Why not take it outside to the parking lot?

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-16 11:22:51 PM|| 2004-05-16 11:22:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 whitecollar, do you see me continuing? Nope. I walked away.
What's the point?
AK is *always* right and I'm an American "nationalistic f*ck."
And he got to dominate the thread and hijack it back to what he wanted to talk about, as usual.
AK's still here and I'm out here bored in the parking lot.
Satisified?

Old Spook, thank you. Excellent job.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 11:32:59 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 11:32:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 OldSpook> It's 6AM over here. So very please if I'll make this set of responses to you the last comments on this thread, don't consider it "slithering away". I've never slithered away in my life.

1) its NOT the least securable country in the region. Iran is.

In Iran the grip of the mullahs on power is weak enough, than an American intervention would quite possibly get tons of supporters. Also Iran is much more ethnically homogeneous (there exist minorities, Kurds, Baluchis, so forth, but much smaller in percentage in comparison to the ones of Iraq) which means that a straightforward democracy is much easier implementable without fear of one group overly oppressing all others, without fear of a civil war between ethnic groups.

Moreover, you'd have neither Saudi Arabia, nor Syria at your sides. You'd have isolated Iraq instead, where if the Mujahideen-e-Kalq were to infiltrate they would be *helping* you overthrow the mullahs, not work against you.

And the sea coast is not a problem when you own the seas.

Next point in a next comment.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 11:33:20 PM|| 2004-05-16 11:33:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 Greatest potential losses in a defeat? Care to substantiate that?

If you had gone and were defeated in Syria, then you'd not actually lose anything -- Syria is already as hardcore a part of the Islamofascist axis as can be. If you gone and were defeated in Iran, your losses would be minimal -- perhaps the mullahs would strengthen their rule at the very worst, but Iran is already at the center of the Islamofascist axis.

But a defeat on Iraq, means that the Islamofascist axis suddenly gains a whole new country -- and not just *any* country, but the final connecting link that'll unite Syria and Iran via Baghdad in a huge link of happy-happy Islamofascist joy, all of them having declared allegiance to one another, the biggest Islamofascist superpower that the world has yet seen.

Last point in the last comment.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 11:39:27 PM|| 2004-05-16 11:39:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 whitecollar redneck, perhaps you'd prefer it that Katsaris's posts remain here unchallenged for all their disinformation, confused thinking and obfuscations, but now that RB's getting pretty popular, I don't think it's a good idea.
I usually follow AK around on purpose to set the record straight with facts and the truth.
Or to get some help from other RBers, like the excellent commentary and analysis to be found above by Old Spook, "B" and Robert Crawford.
But if you rather I didn't...do you speak for all of RB?
Maybe I should just bow out and let RB become America-Hating HQ...?
The Left is always screaming about "free speech" and "tolerance" except when it comes to an opinion and a voice they don't agree with.
And I'm not the only person here who's disagreed with AK profoundly or who's disagreed with him vehemently on this thread, so why was I singled out?
Because I'm a woman and the "little women" are supposed to shut up when they're told to?
That would make you a true redneck, white collar or no.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 11:45:21 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 11:45:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 AK, the USA is not going to "lose" in Iraq.
Last time I looked (5 minutes ago), we were still in control of the country.
When the time comes for Assad to fall in Syria, that will be easy.
We could take Syria anytime--their military is pathetic.
(And Israel is right there, too.)
Iran is crumbling from the inside.
Again, militarily no real challenge for the US to conquer.
We chose Iraq for a number of reasons, but one of them was because Saddam had the strongest army in the region supposedly.
You wanted America to attack Syria. We didn't.
Get over it.
Assad isn't worthy of cleaning Rumsfeld's jockstrap and neither are you.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 11:52:15 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 11:52:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 As for you claims of Peripherally involved in terror - you are so wrong here its laughable! Consider that Abu Nidal was there,

Wow! Abu Nidal! I'm now *so* convinced that he was more important a target than the combined headquarters of Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and Hamas that Damascus was.

and the number of terror training areas in Iraq prior to the war was second only to pre-war Afghanistan,

What, the terror training areas of the MEK, the ones who opposed the mullahs of Iran?

and add in Iraqi funding of Palestenian Fanatic Boomers and its pretty clear that Iraq is a participant in terror

The funding of Palestinian fanatic boomers was the only real participation of Iraq in terror, but it doesn't even compare to the role Syria plays in Palestinian terrorism.

But almost as important is the geopolitical area: are you truly so self blinded that you cannot see its the geographic hub of the area?

Yeah, you went in a place where they have you surrounded. I said that already.

Iran can no longer support Hezbullah in Syria and Israel directly

Which weirdly enough would have also happened if Syria was attacked (my own personal choice) or Iran itself (the hardcore risky choice but still saner than Iraq).

Similarly, Syria cannot help the Taliban in Afghanistan or anyone in Sudan.

Which weirdly enough would have again happened if Syria itself had been attacked. My own personal choice as I believe I've mentioned.

And finally, Iraq was the right choice geopolitically because it puts imminse pressures on Iran and Syrai - history teaches that dictatorships cannot survive intact in the face of an adjacent thriving large democracy.

But Iraq can't thrive as long as Syria and Iran are on its sides. So it would have made more sense to take care one of *those* first, and let *that* one be the example of democratic reform. Except in that case you'd also have direct and immediate benefits.

As for former Yugoslavia, its got you Greeks scared shitless in that they could tear off a part of Greece or embroil Grgeece in a terror war with seperatists on its own soil.

Um no. We don't have any separatists on our own soil. Check it out.

You're as clean in the former Yugoslav republic as the Turks are in Kurdistan - which is to say, not at all.

Are you talking about FYRO Macedonia? If so, then we've never sent army in there, and the last piece of military conflict over the general place was in the Balkan wars or so when it got liberated from the Ottomans. And perhaps also during WW2, the situation with the Bulgarians was a bit confusing.

You bring nationalism to this by criticising us as a nation, then using nationalism as an excuse to fling factless biased epithests at the US leadership: you tar us with it, so be ready to see it coming back at you.

Um, give me examples here, please. And keep in mind the difference between governments and ntations, pretty please.

So why do you not expect to be held accountable for Greek nationalisim in return?

Because every person is responsible for his own ideas. Since I'm not a nationalist, and have consistently fought against it, I can't be blamed for its doings.

You are a democracy aren't you?

Of course. If you want to criticize my vote feel free to do so. I just don't see why I'm blamed for other people's votes.

except when it comes to your fascist behavior toward Turks on Cypress

That's "Cyprus". And the last fascist behavior by Greeks towards Turks on Cyprus was during the time of the junta of colonels, 30 years ago, btw.

Goodnight.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-16 11:55:09 PM|| 2004-05-16 11:55:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Bullshit, AK.
Old Spook nailed you and no fair to act like you have to go somewhere so that you can get the "last word"/dernier mot, which is all you care about.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-16 11:59:18 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-16 11:59:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 "no fair"? Are you still in kindergarten?

You are right it's not 6AM, it's 7AM now.

Tell you what, Jen, you go and have yourself the last word if you want, and I'll respond tomorrow if I feel like it -- and if I don't you can simply add "slitherer" to the bunch of insults whose truth or not you don't care about, same as "troll" and "communist". This thread will still be here. And now, goodnight.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-17 12:15:37 AM|| 2004-05-17 12:15:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#78 Whoa Whoa whoa people!! You are giving the goat loving, commie pinko Aris to much of your time.
How many times do we have to tell these third worlder's not to bring a knife to a gun fight!! Beating this ignorant med-fly up makes my day. But you have given his ignorace to much time, he is a waste and so is the time spent on this idiots comments.

Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-05-17 1:26:11 AM|| 2004-05-17 1:26:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#79 LHR - right you are. I'm going to go hit Fred's tip jar to help pay for the bandwidth I wasted and to help pay for the cleaning lady needed to sweep up this broken glass.

Posted by B 2004-05-17 7:33:13 AM|| 2004-05-17 7:33:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#80 I do note that you didn't actually bother to respondm Jen, so your earlier comments were just as they seemed -- insults for insults' sake.

And Long Hair Republican, why are you actually striving to fulfill all the stereotypes about Republicans that you can find?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-17 8:02:12 AM|| 2004-05-17 8:02:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#81 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Victory Now Please 2004-05-16 3:55:31 PM|| 2004-05-16 3:55:31 PM|| Front Page Top

16:03 M. Murcek
11:30 Halfass Pete
10:37 Halfass Pete
17:30 Victory Now Please
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17:14 Faisal
11:09 growler
07:42 Anonymous5089
04:02 gromky
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01:46 Aris Katsaris
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23:56 Quana