The Battle of Vicksburg, or Siege of Vicksburg, was the final significant battle in the Vicksburg Campaign of the American Civil War. In a series of skilled maneuvers, Union Maj. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant and his Army of the Tennessee crossed the Mississippi River and drove the Confederate army of Lt. Gen. John C. Pemberton into defensive lines surrounding the fortress city of Vicksburg, Mississippi. Grant besieged the city from May 18 to July 4, 1863, until it surrendered, yielding command of the Mississippi River to the Union. . . .
On July 3, Pemberton sent a note to Grant, who, as at Fort Donelson, first demanded unconditional surrender. But Grant reconsidered, not wanting to feed 30,000 hungry Confederates in Union prison camps, and offered to parole all prisoners. Considering their destitute state, dejected and starving, he never expected them to fight again; he hoped they would carry home the stigma of defeat to the rest of the Confederacy. In any event, it would have occupied his army and taken months to ship that many troops north.
Surrender was formalized by an old oak tree, "made historical by the event." . . .
Posted by: Mike ||
07/04/2007 09:56 ||
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Because the city fell on July 4, 1863, and due to lingering memories of the harshness of the Union force's siege, the people of the city did not celebrate Independence Day for the next 81 years, until 1944.
Some people hold a grudge
Posted by: Steve ||
07/04/2007 19:31 Comments ||
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#2
I have visited the memorials lining the site of the battle. Very emotional. 1,000 miles to the east (give or take) the Army of Northern Virginia finds defeat... :((
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands, which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain Inalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . . .
Posted by: Mike ||
07/04/2007 09:49 ||
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Thanks Mike for the posting. It is good to remind all of us what makes this such a great country--the precepts on which it was founded and continues to live.
Russia warned today that it would position its rockets close to the Polish border and point missiles at US bases in Europe if Washington rebuffed its latest offer of cooperation on missile defence.
Russia's hawkish first deputy prime minister, Sergei Ivanov, made it clear that Moscow would be forced "to respond" if the Bush administration snubbed Vladimir Putin's offer to work together on missile defence using a Soviet-era radar base. "If our proposal is not accepted we will take adequate measures. An asymmetrical and effective response will be found," he said. This response would include basing "new rocket forces in the European part of Russia" in the enclave of Kaliningrad, he said. The Russian missiles would be able to "parry the threats that will arise from the [US] missile defence system," he added.
The Kremlin's latest warning comes after two days of meetings between Mr Putin and George Bush at the US president's seaside family retreat in Kennebunkport, Maine. Ahead of the talks the Pentagon had incensed Mr Putin by announcing plans to place elements of its missile defence shield in Poland and the Czech Republic. Mr Putin has derided US claims that the system is aimed at dealing with rogue missiles fired by Iran and North Korea, saying it is actually aimed at Russia.
It's all about me, ME, ME!!!!
Last month Mr Putin suggested the US scrap its existing plans and instead share a Soviet-era radar station in Azerbaijan. During talks this week he went further - offering to work with the US administration over missile defence within the framework of the Nato-Russia Council, and promising use of another early-warning system in southern Russia.
Mr Bush's answer, however, was decidedly lukewarm. Although the president praised Mr Putin's offer as "innovative and strategic", he made it clear that Washington was likely to go ahead anyway with its missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic. "As I told Vladimir, I think that the Czech Republic and Poland need to be an integral part of the system," Mr Bush said.
Most experts now believe that Russia will take active military countermeasures. They include targeting the US's new defence bases in central Europe with Iskandar missiles based in Kaliningrad. Russia will also upgrade its nuclear missile arsenal, put more missiles on mobile launchers and move its fleet of nuclear submarines to the north pole, experts predict.
Mr Putin - who is in Guatemala to hear the fate of Russia's bid to host the 2014 Winter Olympics - struck a conciliatory note today, describing US-Russian relations as "mutually satisfactory". "I am sure that, despite known disagreements, which are unavoidable in an open and honest dialogue, the policy of comprehensive development of bilateral ties in all areas will continue," he said.
Mr Ivanov is, like his boss, a former KGB agent and he is a strong candidate to succeed Mr Putin as president next year. He said that if the Bush administration accepted Mr Putin's offer there would be no point in talking about a "new cold war". "You, journalists, will forget the term 'cold war' after that. It will just disappear. Ground for using it will just cease to exist," Mr Ivanov said at a news conference in Tashkent.
And I'm sure you have lots of experience making ... things ... cease to exist.
#1
Russia warned today that it would position its rockets close to the Polish border and point missiles at US bases in Europe if Washington rebuffed its latest offer of cooperation on missile defence
So what? Russia isn't going to attack anyone. And they sure as hell aren't going to try to shoot down an interceptor that's going after an Iranian nuke.
The only thing all this monkey motion will result in is lots of extra costs to the Russian government.
Perhaps it will be the excuse he needs to build a few more subs or nukes or something I don't know.
Am I missing something? I don't even know why everyone seems to be going ape over this.
#2
It matters not what Putin does, but what he says, because he's most interested in affecting European public opinion, and they are scared. Scared of their declining birthrates, scared of their rising social costs, scared of their rising Muslim populations, scared of Iran, scared of Pakistan, and scared most of all by Russia, and the more scared people are, the higher the price of petroleum and natural gas, of which Russia has much and Europe has little. Russia has only two resources: nuclear weapons and non-nuclear energy, and it can leverage the one to enhance the value of the other. And the ONLY way out of the dilemma is to reduce the demand for energy. Good luck.
#3
The only thing all this monkey motion will result in is lots of extra costs to the Russian government.
The other thing it does is make it a lot harder for Angela Merkel, or any other Euro, to conduct Ostpolitik against the Amis. May also make them think twice about where they get their energy.
I always knew the Russians were bullies, but they were supposed to be smart chess players, too. This is just dumb at any level except the ruskie military-industrial complex.
#6
Here's my response: you are going to target them anyway, why the bluster?
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/04/2007 22:57 Comments ||
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#7
Much like Islam, RasPutin needs to publicly be called upon his bullshit. Excalibur may be a wee bit over the top, but I'd rather see that sort of behavior modification than for us to sit idly by.
Happened Monday, but I don't remember seeing it on Rantburg
Giving up his seat to a wounded soldier, an Army officer strapped himself to the side of an Apache helicopter gunship that airlifted them out of a furious firefight in Iraq, the military said Monday.
Realizing that Spc. Jeffrey Jamaleldine needed medical attention fast, Crist put the critically wounded man in his own spot on the Apache on Saturday. Crist then rigged a harness to strap himself to the fuselage and crouched on the stubby left gun wing of the aircraft. With Chief Warrant Officer Kevin Purtee, of Houston, at the controls and Crist hanging on for dear life, the Apache flew out of the battle zone. It kept low, about 200 feet, until it reached a field hospital, the military said.
Jamaleldine, 31, of Fort Smith, Ark., was later reported in stable condition.
Army officials could not immediately recall an Apache ever being used before for a medical evacuation and certainly not with the co-pilot riding outside.
Crist and Purtee, from Company B, 1st Battalion, 149th Aviation Regiment, were part of a four-Apache team that came to help U.S. troops pinned down under heavy fire in Ramadi.
By the way, those are 'bought and paid for' troops, Woozle.
#2
Course they're bought and paid for Lil Papoose. You all are. I assume from your insinuation you're on active duty in the Corps, correct ? Are you in Iraq or some US supply depot ? The troops courage is never in question, just their judgement in being used as pawns in the global game played out on Wall Street. You lifer NCO's can talk big, but you're not walking patrol getting your limbs separated from the remainder of your carcass. Besoeker, you mean Army Aviation doesn't even maintain its own birds anymore ? And, bye the bye, Lil Papoose, Happy Fourth.
#3
Course they're bought and paid for Lil Papoose. You all are. I assume from your insinuation you're on active duty in the Corps, correct ? Are you in Iraq or some US supply depot ? The troops courage is never in question, just their judgement in being used as pawns in the global game played out on Wall Street. You lifer NCO's can talk big, but you're not walking patrol getting your limbs separated from the remainder of your carcass. Besoeker, you mean Army Aviation doesn't even maintain its own birds anymore ? And, bye the bye, Lil Papoose, Happy Fourth.
#4
Course they're bought and paid for Lil Papoose. You all are. I assume from your insinuation you're on active duty in the Corps, correct ? Are you in Iraq or some US supply depot ? The troops courage is never in question, just their judgement in being used as pawns in the global game played out on Wall Street. You lifer NCO's can talk big, but you're not walking patrol getting your limbs separated from the remainder of your carcass. Besoeker, you mean Army Aviation doesn't even maintain its own birds anymore ? And, bye the bye, Lil Papoose, Happy Fourth.
#5
I assume from your insinuation you're on active duty in the Corps, correct?
Civil Service. Something about not being medically fit for duty/deployment...
Are you in Iraq or some US supply depot?
A nice little training facility in the Mojave, a few hours east of your IP address. I'd invite you over, but you'd probably say something stupid like you do in your posts, and the resulting paperwork would be a bitch.
The troops courage is never in question, just their judgement in being used as pawns in the global game played out on Wall Street.
Did it hurt when they installed the cliche chip?
You lifer NCO's can talk big, but you're not walking patrol getting your limbs separated from the remainder of your carcass.
That's probably because I've already had my 'limbs separated from my carcass'. Actuallly, the spinal cord. I got a free two-year stay in Bethesda as a result. And btw- I'm a mustang.
#6
Ouch! Woozle' does it hurt to get slapped like that?
'Course, you've meen proven a moron, so you could be too dumb to know that you've been hit.
By the by Woozle' enjoy your 4th and keep in mind that its protected by soldiers that are bought and paid for.
Enjoy your freedon, loser.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/04/2007 14:19 Comments ||
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#7
Ouch! Woozle' does it hurt to get slapped like that?
'Course, you've meen proven a moron, so you could be too dumb to know that you've been hit.
By the by Woozle' enjoy your 4th and keep in mind that its protected by soldiers that are bought and paid for.
Enjoy your freedom, loser.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/04/2007 14:19 Comments ||
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#8
Hah! You thought I was gonna post it 3 times! Loser.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/04/2007 14:21 Comments ||
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#9
Please, Mike N, don't call Woozle Elmeter2970 a moron. It's so important to used the correct terminology, and while a bit old fashioned, I stand by the label of imbecile in his case. He isn't smart enough to aspire to being a moron, I'm afraid.
#10
The troops courage is never in question, just their judgement in being used as pawns in the global game played out on Wall Street.
Why didn't I think of that? It's all so clear now. Well, since you're so smart Woozle, why don't you explain more of the subtle details of your hare-brained theory to all of us here so we can all have a good laugh analyze it.
#11
Kewl! Funny some of the things you think of in a crisis situation. FYI I would bet that they don't teach this in Army Aviation School (and never will). Good job!
#12
Has someone thought to point out to dear little Woozle that the pejorative term of "lifer", meaning a career military person is just so... well, several wars ago?
And that deploying the "chickenhawk" insinuation at Chez Rantburg might be opening oneself up for the Mother of all Bitchslaps? (humming to myself, looking around for the mop and the paper towels, which will be needed to mop up the mess, once everyone is done with educating Little Woozle)
#13
We could start, Sgt. Mom, by educating him as to what Pappy means when he says he's a mustang. Wasted effort tho - he not only has no clue, he doesn't even know there's a clue train to take delivery from.
Wannabe boy with ethical and intellectual zits. Probably facial ones too, the kind with yellow heads that keep needing popping.
It's pretty pathetic when your fiercest anti-troop rhetoric is 2nd hand outdated 60s stuff. Tie dyed insinuations, grimy from spending so many years on top of the boards and bricks shelves in the commune and being pawed by 'free spirits' who don't make regular acquaintance of soap and water.
Watched it happen the first time around. It was pathetic then, but some of my age group did eventually grow up.
It's REALLY pathetic when it's regurgitated 40 years later.
#15
The troops courage is never in question, just their judgement in being used as pawns in the global game played out on Wall Street.
Woozle, since you've been an e-Jihadists for the Ummah-Corp fill us in, which Grade Schools and/or Hospitals are you and your ass-clowns gonna blow up for allah?
Do yourself and us a favor and spill the beans on the Islamic Terrorist.
The War against the Islamicist Fascism and Muslime Terrorism could use a tip from an insider like you, so switch sides to the The United States of America the very Best..
#17
RD, I don't think Woozle's a jihadi, e- or otherwise.
He's just got a head full of half-understood superficial thoughts he's seen others string together. No doubt he thinks he believes them. Probably thinks he's Speaking Truth to Power. I mean, he went right to the SOURCE of the conspiracy, those nasty troop-sacrificing Wall Street ... um ... whatevers.
If I sound pissed, it's because I am. I lived through the sliming of my family members and friends during and after Nam. It's bad enough that Woozle boy pukes up tired old memes from the Nam ear and tries to throw them at today's professional, volunteer force.
It's the fact that he adds in his heartfelt belief that they're too STUPID to avoid being manipulated by the Capitalists that tips me into the pissed off side of the online street.
I've taught his like in college. I've also taught some who are serving in uniform now, putting their comfort and lives on the line through a conscious choice to defend and protect us. One group was far and away better as students, more functional in their lives and bigger contributors to our society.
I agree, lotp - he's it's not smart enough for that.
Speaking of smart, I'll bet that egggggs-cellent bitch-slap you gave him/it will be smarting for a week! :-D
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/04/2007 17:17 Comments ||
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#20
This whole idea that only a person that isn't smart enough to be an independent thinker would want to volunteer for the military is just something these clowns tell themselves so they can feel superior. Some people have to make excuses for themselves by knocking down others. Not being good enough to cut it is far too harsh for their fragile self esteem.
These people have obviously no idea what it takes to fly for the Airforce for instance and I'm sure Pappy can tell this bafoon what percentage of Marine officers have college degrees. Real ones I might add, not some crap they through at a football player so he can play for the Hurricanes.
Woozle, you might as well face up to what the rest of us already know, you can't cut it and you can't face.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/04/2007 17:52 Comments ||
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#21
Sorry, Pappy, didnt know your story or I wouldnt have cut on you. I dont get to Twentynine Palms that often, but I could stop next time I drive to Vegas winter only and have a cup with you. Doubt anything serious would occur. Actually, preventing anymore Marines or Army grunts from going through what you have is what motivates me. What isnt being mentioned is the 50-60,000 wounded, some so bad that functioning normally is out of the question. And these are 20 yr. olds. I was in and out of hospitals for several years myself, but nothing as serious as your injuries. The reason , LOTP, I refer to an old war is because it was my war. I was there and know what it was like and know what Im talking about. I dont know anything about this war, except I see recurring patterns and realize these troops may have it even rougher than any military group before them. To go and fight is one thing. To go and be maimed for no real reason is quite another. At unit reunions now, none of us can justify why we were in Nam. What was accomplished ? This thing, if it was confronted properly, is as important, if not more so, than the Nazi menace. Lets destroy the enemy, not our armies. I agree with Gen. Curtis LeMay: if the war is worth fighting, then its worth killing the enemy as fast as possible without mercy to end it as soon as practicable. I know this isnt a military forum, but TW your posts are thoughtful normally, but you dont know dip about battlefields. And Mike N., youre the dizziest SOB thats ever posted here, so no comment on your upchucks.
I'll buy that. You DON'T know what's happening with this war, or our troops. You're viewing it all through your experience and you're either too lazy or too _______ to go find out the facts on the ground.
There are serious issues around this protracted, multi-dimensional Long War. I hear them debated and evaluated every day in my workplace. But by and large they are not the issues you assume. (Hint about my workplace: most people are in green. Or khaki. And not one of them is a 'boy' or 'girl', age notwithstanding.)
Whatever you may think -- or more exactly, assume -- the vast majority of those in theater in Iraq, Afghanistan and more obscure places do not think that they are deployed for 'no reason'. They may have serious issues with tactics and strategy. Maybe some of the reservists and national guard are not as prepared for real combat and SASO as the active duty pros. (Although, the ones I've talked with are and are pretty damn well informed too.)
Bottom line up front, Woozle. Your meme is both tired and uninformed.
But if your concern for the wounded is genuine (and I will assume it is), then you might find the California equivalent of my uncle Lefty.
At 84, this Silver Star / multiple Bronze Star awardee and 3 time wounded at the frontlines of Bastogne vet served until this year as Commander of the Order of the Purple Heart -- and drove to pick up other vets who (like him) limp and are in regular pain. They meet incoming soldiers at the airport. They provide coffee and a knowing ear when needed. They visit in the hospital and provide hours of support during the pain and confusion.
What they do NOT do is pity those men and women. Not in the condescending but uninformed way you seem to be doing. Instead they meet them as colleagues and companions, as after-battle buddies.
It's one place you could start -- providing you check your assumptions at the door and are willing to grow and to learn.
And when you're ready for the graduate course, google "effects based operations" and see if you can wrap your mind around the idea that our commanders have multiple objectives in Iraq and Afghanistan, attrition of the enemy being only one.
#23
Woozle, a polite hint: Today is a really poor choice of days to be disparaging our military. Just sayin'.
At unit reunions now, none of us can justify why we were in Nam. What was accomplished ?
May I suggest any of a number of books by Ayn Rand? Viet Nam had to be fought because it was essential that America stand up to communism. That war operations were dictated by politicians resulted in the same senseless carnage we're witnessing today in the Politically Correct Iraqi conflict (albeit at a significantly lower level). Consider that the economic drain upon the Soviet Union to aid North Vietnam's military may have helped tip its artificial economy over the edge. More than anything, just like with Islam, communism had to be fought wherever we could.
This thing, if it was confronted properly, is as important, if not more so, than the Nazi menace.
No doubt about that. Too bad that so many politicians and American citizen simply do not get it.
Lets destroy the enemy, not our armies. I agree with Gen. Curtis LeMay: if the war is worth fighting, then its worth killing the enemy as fast as possible without mercy to end it as soon as practicable.
It's hard to agrue with military logic. The absence of a proper military enemy has confused this current conflict to no end. When our politicians finally wake up and can bring themselves to name the enemy that confronts us, perhaps that will change.
Don't confuse doctrine with strategy or tactics, by the way. When I say that Woozle is unfamiliar with current doctrine I'm talking about all the tools available to commanders, the skills, procedures, weapons, methods that troops are taught and commanders can call upon. THOSE have changed significantly since Viet Nam, not to mention the majority of LeMay's career.
LeMay was the father of the Strategic Air Command.
The outgoing commander of the current STRATCOM, which is far more than SAC ever was in its heyday, is a Marine.
If you understand why we now have the integrated command that STRATCOM represents, and why its outgoing Marine commander is moving up to Vice Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, you'll begin to see what I mean about different doctrine.
What the pols and the White House direct the military to do using that doctrine is a separate issue.
#30
Sorry, Pappy, didnt know your story or I wouldnt have cut on you. I dont get to Twentynine Palms that often, but I could stop next time I drive to Vegas winter only and have a cup with you.
Thank you for the offer. Some day, perhaps.
What isnt being mentioned is the 50-60,000 wounded, some so bad that functioning normally is out of the question. And these are 20 yr. olds.
Please keep in mind that, even a decade ago, the number of wounded would have been much higher. And a significant percentage of the current wounded would have been returning in body bags. One can thank technology and leadership for that.
And while they are young, and I tend to call them 'my kids' (Besoeker does too), my marines and corpsmen are 'in' because, for most of them, they want to be there. They are smarter, more mature, and more focused, yes- better than most of the population they came from. Calling them 'bought and paid for' disparages them.
At unit reunions now, none of us can justify why we were in Nam. What was accomplished ?
May I suggest going to Westminster? On certain days, the residents fly flags of the Republic of Vietnam along its streets. Perhaps they can tell you.
#31
Woozle dear, I did make the point that I'm pretty much the Platonic Ideal of civilians. Of course I know nothing about matters military. Who would be silly enough to think I did?
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Russia warned today that it would position its rockets close to the Polish border and point missiles at US bases in Europe if Washington rebuffed its latest offer of cooperation on missile defence. 
