Article

2022-03-17 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

Proposed 'Fifteen Point Peace Plan' in Russia-Ukraine War Is a Total Defeat for Putin, but Zelensky Is Biding His Time

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Posted by Besoeker 2022-03-17 02:52|| || Front Page|| [11128 views ] Top

#1 biding his time
For four weeks? While his people are getting slaughtered? So he can achieve a peace settlement that's much worse than what he rejected in February? Maybe he doesn't think of them as his people

Posted by Glaviper Shaising2951 2022-03-17 05:51|| 2022-03-17 05:51|| Front Page Top

#2 In on the articles about the "peace plan", I haven't seen anything about reparations for the damage and deaths inflicted on the victim.

Posted by Mercutio 2022-03-17 07:56|| 2022-03-17 07:56|| Front Page Top

#3 several points in the 15 pointer are either ambiguous or very problematic

a Russian withdrawal is one point - is it to the pre Feb 24 positions or to pre 2014 or something in between

another point is Ukraine is not allowed to field weapons from other countries - this would cripple them if Putin invaded again

Posted by Lord Garth 2022-03-17 10:22|| 2022-03-17 10:22|| Front Page Top

#4 Maybe so; good sign though. Maybe get something started before Zelensky achieves New Fauci status and somebody does something which cannot just be let go.

Posted by swksvolFF 2022-03-17 10:42|| 2022-03-17 10:42|| Front Page Top

#5 It will be called the Budapest Memorandum 2.0

Posted by European Conservative 2022-03-17 10:58|| 2022-03-17 10:58|| Front Page Top

#6 neutrality for Ukraine based on the status of Austria or Sweden was a possibility.
Obvious. That's what Kissinger and every other expert said was the essence of any lasting peace. Kissinger said it in 2014. Nobody in the Obama administration listened.

Posted by Jinesing Ulurong6509 2022-03-17 11:42|| 2022-03-17 11:42|| Front Page Top

#7 Questions for the “We Stand With Ukraine” crowd:
1. What sort of results should we expect from becoming involved in Ukraine compared to the results of our involvement in Viet Nam, Afghanistan and Iraq?
2. How many decades should we expect to be involved in Ukraine?
3. How may trillion dollars will we spend on involvement in Ukraine?
4. What sort of results should we expect from our involvement in Ukraine compared to our involvement in Viet Nam, Afghanistan and Iraq?
5. What sort of cooperation should we expect from the rest of the free world regarding our involvement in Ukraine?
6. How many American deaths should we be willing to sustain in Ukraine?
7. What would constitute American victory in Ukraine?
8. What would constitute the conditions in which we throw in the towel as we did in Viet Nam and Afghanistan?
9. Assuming a precipitous departure of American involvement, as in Afghanistan, what sort of post involvement unfriendly regime would we be willing to leave behind in Ukraine?
10. How much neglect of American interests and needs at home should we be willing to subject ourselves to while involving ourselves in Ukraine?

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-03-17 11:45|| 2022-03-17 11:45|| Front Page Top

#8 Sorry for points 1 and 4 being repeats.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-03-17 11:46|| 2022-03-17 11:46|| Front Page Top

#9 #7 Questions for the “We Stand With Ukraine” crowd:
1. What sort of results should we expect from becoming involved in Ukraine compared to the results of our involvement in Viet Nam, Afghanistan and Iraq? Worse results - maybe a nuclear attack by the Russians against our homeland
2. How many decades should we expect to be involved in Ukraine? Two at least but probably longer
3. How may trillion dollars will we spend on involvement in Ukraine? Depends on how much loot the MIC wants to make
4. What sort of results should we expect from our involvement in Ukraine compared to our involvement in Viet Nam, Afghanistan and Iraq? See #1. Short answer: much worse.
5. What sort of cooperation should we expect from the rest of the free world regarding our involvement in Ukraine?
6. How many American deaths should we be willing to sustain in Ukraine? Send the poor folk. They eee going hungry anyway
7. What would constitute American victory in Ukraine? Total control and dictatorship at home
8. What would constitute the conditions in which we throw in the towel as we did in Viet Nam and Afghanistan? No more gravy flowing to the Bidens
9. Assuming a precipitous departure of American involvement, as in Afghanistan, what sort of post involvement unfriendly regime would we be willing to leave behind in Ukraine? Any one so long as the money keeps flowing to DC
10. How much neglect of American interests and needs at home should we be willing to subject ourselves to while involving ourselves in Ukraine? "American interests and needs"? What's that?

Posted by Uleper Omeatch7699 2022-03-17 11:53|| 2022-03-17 11:53|| Front Page Top

#10 I don't really "Stand with Ukraine". While I am sympathetic to the average Ukrainian and Russian conscript, I look at it from a long term strategic view.

Russia's population is collapsing. This is the largest army Russia will be able to field for the rest of its existence. 2 million men. That's it and they are out of draftable age replacements. Russians will not be a huge ethnic majority at this rate by 2060-2070 and the Russian federation is over.

The question for American planners is whether to let them die naturally or bleed them out somewhere. Ukraine is a great place for that. Every poor Russian killed is one less Russian humping and making babies to draw out the slow death of the population.

I am for giving as much man portable weapons to the Ukrainians to do just that. We don't need to beat Russia here, just bleed them. I think Ukraine will agree to Russia's terms eventually, but they won't be as harsh as the ones that Russia put forward at first due to the mauling they got.

Posted by DarthVader 2022-03-17 12:12|| 2022-03-17 12:12|| Front Page Top

#11 Are you going to keep the sanctions on Russia for years to come? How do the sanctions help promote "American interests" and address "American needs"?

Posted by Uneng Johnson5163 2022-03-17 12:14|| 2022-03-17 12:14|| Front Page Top

#12 But, DV, you must understand that others will replace them. Consider that the others will likely be either Muslims or Chinese. As bad as you may think the Russians are, consider the alternatives.

Posted by Abu Uluque 2022-03-17 13:13|| 2022-03-17 13:13|| Front Page Top

#13 Russians are not the problem. Putin is.

Posted by European Conservative 2022-03-17 13:19|| 2022-03-17 13:19|| Front Page Top

#14 Zelensky and Kolomoisky have made millions off of sanctions busting. Of course they'll keep the war running and the sanctions grift going as long as possible. PrivatBank is Zelensky & Kolomoisky's preferred moneylaundering vehicle. Its the same one that Burisma uses

Posted by Thock Noodleman9916 2022-03-17 13:20|| 2022-03-17 13:20|| Front Page Top

#15 "Russians are not the problem"
Putin and Zelensky and Kolomoisky and all the other thieves are the problem. They're all making billions off of the sanctions, just Google "icij.org kolomoisky" and look at the tin of evidence as to why the US sanctioned Zelensky's sugar daddy Igor Kolomoisky. He and Zelensky are gonna make billions now in private deals, as will Putin and the Russian thieves

Posted by Jack Dark Lord of the Mongol Horde7865 2022-03-17 13:25|| 2022-03-17 13:25|| Front Page Top

#16 Zelensky might not be alive in two weeks.

Posted by European Conservative 2022-03-17 13:28|| 2022-03-17 13:28|| Front Page Top

#17 Russia's population is collapsing

Ukraine’s is actually worse, and that was before over 2 million mostly women and children fled. A cynical view is that the rest of Europe is happy to get additional Europeans tough enough to face resident Moslem colonists, and hopes to get an even larger portion of Ukraine’s 41 million.

CIA World Factbook:
Ukraine
Russia

Posted by trailing wife 2022-03-17 13:29|| 2022-03-17 13:29|| Front Page Top

#18 China is in the same boat as Russia. By 2070-2100 the Chinese population will be half of what it is now depending how how badly they lied about their numbers (last population adjustment the Chinese went "oops, we over counted by 100 million).

The 2050s to the end of this century will be really interesting. Most of the modern nations will be facing or have faced a population collapse and there won't be enough young to support the older generation and there won't be enough workers, tax base or draftable people to support that nation state.

As to your statement Abu Uluque, the Russians are done no matter what we do and the Chinese aren't that far behind. Look at the populations now that are growing and those will be the ones that replace them. Ukraine and western Europe among them.

Right now the Muslim and African population that fled to France over the last 30 years is out populating the native French. France will be a good chunk of of new population in 50 years and the original French will start being displaced.

Posted by DarthVader 2022-03-17 13:36|| 2022-03-17 13:36|| Front Page Top

#19 "Zelensky might not be alive in two weeks."
He and his patron Igor Kolomoisky have friends in Israel and real estate holdings across London and the US. He'll pop up in one of those locations - with even more loot in his offshore bank account than he stole before he became president

Posted by Ebbesh Unick8613 2022-03-17 13:39|| 2022-03-17 13:39|| Front Page Top

#20 @ #16 - I would not bet against such a scenario.

Posted by DooDahMan 2022-03-17 14:11|| 2022-03-17 14:11|| Front Page Top

#21 By 2070-2100 the Chinese population will be half of what it is now depending how how badly they lied about their numbers (last population adjustment the Chinese went "oops, we over counted by 100 million).

It will be interesting to see by how much the African and Middle Eastern countries exaggerated their numbers, too. And what happens to the hordes colonizing Europe when the native Europeans are no longer providing the lifestyle the hordes invaded in order to acquire. Will that portion of them that really do want a chance to work hard and live in peace be able to carry the jizya load the rest of their compatriots demand?

Remember, it was demonstrated over a decade ago that the Palestinian territories, in the few years since Israel allowed them self-rule, had managed to overcount their population by a full million imaginary people, and no doubt it’s only grown since then.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-03-17 14:36|| 2022-03-17 14:36|| Front Page Top

#22 I had forgotten that TW. Thanks for bringing that back up.

Either way, the majority of the world will have to deal with population aging and decline for the rest of the century. The Europe we knew from the late middle ages to now is rapidly fading away. Most of Asia will be declining as well.
The US will be stable as we replace our population with immigrants and I see a huge influx during the century from Europe as things fail. Mexico is also pretty stable population wise for the next 40 years as well.

The social order that has existed since the end of the Napoleonic wars is coming to an end as well as the last 60 years of Pax Americana. It will be interesting times.

Posted by DarthVader 2022-03-17 14:58|| 2022-03-17 14:58|| Front Page Top

#23 Don't worry, Pfizer will kill off and make infertile enough Israelis to allow the Palestinian population to catch up

Posted by Black Bart Uneaque7582 2022-03-17 15:49|| 2022-03-17 15:49|| Front Page Top

#24 It must freak Russians out to think about what would happen in nuclear exchange. Moscow would be taken out, no question, and thats it, game over, Russia as we know it is gone and hello greater China. Take out Washington DC and the US would probably be better off in the long run.

Posted by ruprecht 2022-03-17 15:57|| 2022-03-17 15:57|| Front Page Top

#25 So all of us: Russians, Ukrainians, French, Germans, Brits and Americans need to start thinking (should have started thinking a long time ago) about how to survive in a world full of people who are not particularly sympathetic toward our way of life.

Posted by Abu Uluque 2022-03-17 15:58|| 2022-03-17 15:58|| Front Page Top

#26 Thanks to hypersonic missiles Russians have the nuclear advantage now in any exchange with the US. They'd easily wipe out the heartland while our corrupt swine in Washington make sure DC, NY and the left coast remain unscathed

Posted by Helmuth, Speaking for Whise3065 2022-03-17 16:07|| 2022-03-17 16:07|| Front Page Top

#27 Looking back at the media that we were made to digest during the 70s and all the talk of the "population bomb" I recall more than a few folk suggesting that "blood sports" would become a way to cull the herd. Flash forward to today, and as we look back to that time, what passes for the "blood sports" becomes apparent. Ukraine can be looked as just the latest coliseum.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2022-03-17 16:11|| 2022-03-17 16:11|| Front Page Top

#28 Dead Wrong. if Putin was murdered tonight, whoever the new Russian leader is would NOT immediately withdraw.

By making this statement, you show you know nothing about what's going on in Russia.

They see Ukraine as an existential threat to their existence. It's ridiculous, but, that's what Russians believe to a large extent.

Posted by Omaing Stalag1261 2022-03-17 16:11|| 2022-03-17 16:11|| Front Page Top

#29 Col. Doug Macgregor, who was Asst. Secretary of Defense in the Trump administration, on our cynical refusal to push Zelensky to engage seriously in peace talks -- its all about trying to overthrow Putin:
"Ukrainians are almost incidental to the operation in the sense that they are there to impale themselves on the Russian army. And die in great numbers, because the real goal of this entire thing is the destruction of the Russian state and Vladimir Putin."

Posted by Eohippus tse Tung3795 2022-03-17 17:17|| 2022-03-17 17:17|| Front Page Top

#30 hey see Ukraine as an existential threat to their existence. It's ridiculous...

It isn't. Russia has no natural defenses so tanks and horsemen can roll/ride in at will. Ukraine holds 2 of the 9 major invasion routes into Russia.

The best way Russia can defend itself is to expand its borders to areas it can defend (with puppet state help). Been that way since the 1600s.

Posted by DarthVader 2022-03-17 19:15|| 2022-03-17 19:15|| Front Page Top

#31 Maybe he doesn't think of them as his people
They're not. Different tribe

Posted by Neville Gurly-Brown3519 2022-03-17 20:36|| 2022-03-17 20:36|| Front Page Top

#32 Pfizer will kill off and make infertile enough Israelis to allow the Palestinian population to catch up

I look forward to seeing how that experiment plays out in about a year. The Palestinians have been vaccinating as quickly as they could get the stuff donated, since the idea of actually paying for it out of the money donated over the decades that slid quietly into private pockets is unthinkable.

Posted by trailing wife 2022-03-17 20:39|| 2022-03-17 20:39|| Front Page Top

#33 Helmuth, Speaking for Whise3065, I suspect the hypersonic missiles are about as effective as the rest of the Russian war equipment we've seen the last month.

Posted by ruprecht 2022-03-17 22:35|| 2022-03-17 22:35|| Front Page Top

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