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2018-12-31 Europe
Angela Merkel: Nation States Must "Give Up Sovereignty" To New World Order
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Posted by Bright Pebbles 2018-12-31 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11139 views ]  Top

#1 But Merkel has always had a tin ear for comedy....

Proving she is indeed a German.
Posted by Besoeker 2018-12-29 03:15||   2018-12-29 03:15|| Front Page Top

#2 Hotel California Globalism: "You can never leave"
Posted by Frank G 2018-12-29 04:14||   2018-12-29 04:14|| Front Page Top

#3 Ja, Atomkraft, danke! This nation,
For safety, must give up its station.
And as for the sheeple,
Not one tiny peep'll
Escape from their atomisation!
Posted by Enver Poodle7651 2018-12-29 04:39||   2018-12-29 04:39|| Front Page Top

#4 "Nuts"
Posted by Slineque Splat5807 2018-12-29 07:50||   2018-12-29 07:50|| Front Page Top

#5 It's what all globalists believe.
Posted by Besoeker 2018-12-29 07:52||   2018-12-29 07:52|| Front Page Top

#6 Still waiting for Merkel to shut down those "filthy" coal mines in the Ruhr region.
Posted by DooDahMan 2018-12-29 08:01||   2018-12-29 08:01|| Front Page Top

#7 NYT - Germany Closes Its Last Black Coal Mine
Posted by Besoeker 2018-12-29 08:04||   2018-12-29 08:04|| Front Page Top

#8 "Lignite is considered even dirtier than black coal but remains relatively cheap to extract, even in Germany."

LOL
Posted by DooDahMan 2018-12-29 08:10||   2018-12-29 08:10|| Front Page Top

#9 And there lies the globalists and their open border beliefs. And they will also be in charge of us plebs of course.

Fuck you all.
Posted by DarthVader 2018-12-29 09:56||   2018-12-29 09:56|| Front Page Top

#10 I guess it's safe to say that she is not a fan of Ayn Rand....
Posted by Warthog 2018-12-29 10:03||   2018-12-29 10:03|| Front Page Top

#11 Why is she still metabolizing oxygen?
Posted by Gravirong the Rasher of Bacon3945 2018-12-29 11:40||   2018-12-29 11:40|| Front Page Top

#12 In essence, Schumer and Pelosi are saying the same thing. Obama said it and so did Hillary. Jeb Bush said it too. They can all fuck off.
Posted by Abu Uluque 2018-12-29 12:31||   2018-12-29 12:31|| Front Page Top

#13 When Germany dissolves, the world will be a better place.
Posted by Regular joe 2018-12-29 19:06||   2018-12-29 19:06|| Front Page Top

#14 What is it about German chancellors and new orders?
Posted by charger 2018-12-29 19:50||   2018-12-29 19:50|| Front Page Top

#15 Actually the Zerohedge article is quite a distortion of what she really said.
Posted by European Conservative 2018-12-29 20:54||   2018-12-29 20:54|| Front Page Top

#16 What did she really say, European Conservative? We included a link to the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung report on which the Zero Hedge article is based.
Posted by trailing wife 2018-12-29 21:19||   2018-12-29 21:19|| Front Page Top

#17 If you carry this article over I'll explain tomorrow
Posted by European Conservative 2018-12-29 23:14||   2018-12-29 23:14|| Front Page Top

#18 I’ll do that, European Conservative. With my thanks in advance. :-)
Posted by trailing wife 2018-12-29 23:17||   2018-12-29 23:17|| Front Page Top

#19 Ready for your translation, European Conservative.
Posted by trailing wife 2018-12-30 00:08||   2018-12-30 00:08|| Front Page Top

#20 Ann-hell-a burka. URK!
Posted by M. Murcek 2018-12-30 06:51||   2018-12-30 06:51|| Front Page Top

#21 I'll save EC some time:

You have to give up something to get something.

Give up self-determination via democratic elections.

You will get "something."

Give up local control of the civic organs that run your neighborhoods.

You will get "something."

Listen to gerbilists blowing smoke out their asses.

You will get "something."

Get it yet?
Posted by M. Murcek 2018-12-30 06:54||   2018-12-30 06:54|| Front Page Top

#22 A better idea would be to reinstitute Colonialism. This time select nations, ones that didn't have colonies before, could hold African and middle eastern national as colonies under the UN. Give the nordic states, Ireland, and Canada a try. Clearly some nations simply can't run themselves and are borderline failures, lets give them a chance.
Posted by ruprecht 2018-12-30 10:15||   2018-12-30 10:15|| Front Page Top

#23 Ruprecht, it doesn't matter. The Peoples Republic of China is the new colonist power to replace Great Britain.

Kenya has to give up the port of Mombasa to them along with the RR and a few other chits for not paying their loans.

Ecuador needs to pony up assets for a ChiCom built dam that is falling down before it is complete (The Fly Ash Liberation Army has moved offshore.).

Sudan has some big debts that need assets to pay off.

The list goes on and on.

I am smiling at Pakistan's China debts. It will SUCK to be THEM.

Posted by 3dc 2018-12-30 10:59||   2018-12-30 10:59|| Front Page Top

#24 Oh and including the old NAZI anthem in the post... well look at the lyrics - every verse. They map exactly to what she was saying!
Posted by 3dc 2018-12-30 11:01||   2018-12-30 11:01|| Front Page Top

#25 Yeah. China will expect to be paid. What a nasty surprise...
Posted by M. Murcek 2018-12-30 11:10||   2018-12-30 11:10|| Front Page Top

#26 Because we all want Xi Jinping telling us what to do, spying on us everywhere we go, taking us out of circulation for thought crimes and confiscating the fruit of our labor?

Go to hell, Merkel.
Posted by Abu Uluque 2018-12-30 11:50||   2018-12-30 11:50|| Front Page Top

#27 OK. We know that most of our politicians are crooks. But at least they're our crooks and not China's or Germany's.
Posted by Abu Uluque 2018-12-30 12:21||   2018-12-30 12:21|| Front Page Top

#28 EC decided not to waste her breath weigh in?
Posted by M. Murcek 2018-12-30 13:17||   2018-12-30 13:17|| Front Page Top

#29 I’m sure European Conservative will weigh in late this afternoon or this evening, when he usually shows up.
Posted by trailing wife 2018-12-30 13:52||   2018-12-30 13:52|| Front Page Top

#30 Eager to hear from EC as Zerohedge is not always the most reliable source.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2018-12-30 14:26||   2018-12-30 14:26|| Front Page Top

#31 Ok, here's my comment.

First it's important to stress that Merkel doesn't even mention the so-called "New World Order" (whatever this term means that Macron, a true French elitist, uses). She's talking about voluntarily (no "must" there) giving up some national sovereignty to achieve common European goals.

Merkel explained that Germany had transferred part of its sovereignty rights to the European Union. "But the states are the masters of the treaties". This would always require the support and decision of the national parliament. The heart of democracy is the parliament.

Trust and a willingness to compromise were important keys in this national and international tension. Particularly in the discussions on the United Nations Migration Pact, it became clear that fundamental issues were being called into question. The democratic legitimacy of the institution and its conventions were questioned, even though they had long since been decided by the national parliaments. She criticised that "there are people who believe they can determine when these agreements lose their validity because they represent the people". She rejected this nationalism. "The people are the people who live permanently in a country and not a group that defines them as a people."

So Germany has transferred some of it's sovereignty rights to the EU (just like all the other EU states have, starting from the 1950s). That's nothing alarming. The EU couldn't work if nation states weren't willing to do so. She is stressing that the legitimacy of those institutions (EU, UN, WTO) has long been decided by German parliament (and Supreme Court), so a group of people which says it speaks for the German people can't put this legitimacy (and transfer of sovereignty) in question. Only Parliament can.

"National Sovereignty" is a term you hear very often these days in the U.S. For me this is quite surprising because I can't think of a country that has given up less sovereignty than the U.S. In the UN, nothing can really happen against the will of the U.S. (those non-binding resolutions of the General Assembly are meaningless).

It's different for Germany. Europe won't work without so many small nations giving up some of their sovereignty. And let's face it: Germany is in a unique position. It could probably go it alone, but would never do so. WW II ended more than 70 years ago but distrust of a sovereign Germany still exists. Europe wants a powerful Germany but reigned in by European institutions, and Germany has always understood that. Germany doesn't need the Euro but accepts it, mostly for political reasons.

I have a lot of problems with Merkel. She totally blew the migrant issue (and I think she realizes this now), but she may very well have saved Europe from financial collapse a decade ago.

The problem is that the EU wasn't meant to have 28 member states when it was founded. 6, 9 or 12 states can very well work together without giving up too much sovereignty. 28 can't.

But the UK, if it leaves the EU, will find out that it won't regain much of this coveted national sovereignty. Norway, Switzerland and Iceland know that. They are basically playing to the rules of the EU without having a say in it. The UK could choose a hard Brexit, but it will pay an enormous economical and financial price. This is starting to sink in only now.

The EU is the only way to negotiate at arm's length with the U.S. and rising powers like China, not to mention international giants like Amazon, Google etc. 28 "sovereign" nations would in fact be less sovereign, if they go it alone. Their negotiating power would be minimal.

It's a different world now. If smaller nations don't band together they become meaningless. And then sovereignty means little.
Posted by European Conservative 2018-12-30 16:23||   2018-12-30 16:23|| Front Page Top

#32 Thank you, EC, for the Comment. There are several points that I find disquieting...

The democratic legitimacy of the institution and its conventions were questioned, even though they had long since been decided by the national parliaments. She criticised that "there are people who believe they can determine when these agreements lose their validity because they represent the people".

So, if Your Ancestors decided anything then you, their Descendant, have no right to want it amended? The Past is a Tyrant, it seems...

The problem is that the EU wasn't meant to have 28 member states when it was founded. 6, 9 or 12 states can very well work together without giving up too much sovereignty. 28 can't.

Or was the original European Economic Community a Good Thing, a voluntary thing, while the current European Union is the Neo-Carolingian Empire in disguise? The problem with giving up local freedoms is the difficulty in keeping Any freedoms at all.
Posted by magpie 2018-12-30 18:52||   2018-12-30 18:52|| Front Page Top

#33 The worst thing that happened to Germany was reunification. It is now so large and dominant that the EU is the Fourth Reich in sheep's clothing. Think the United States without Texas. Caliphornia and New York would dominate.

And the EUropean parliament a democratic institution? With any power? As I understand it, the Brussels bureaucrats run the EU and they jump to their German masters.

Brexit is much like the American Revolution. We suffered for a while economically. But we got our act together and did much better than we would have had we remained under British tyranny. In a decade they won't regret it and there may not be an EU or an EURO. The Keystone state has been pulled out.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2018-12-30 19:12||   2018-12-30 19:12|| Front Page Top

#34 Please carry over for comments from the early risers and rebuttal from the esteemed EC.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2018-12-30 19:13||   2018-12-30 19:13|| Front Page Top

#35 "So, if Your Ancestors decided anything then you, their Descendant, have no right to want it amended? The Past is a Tyrant, it seems..."

Not at all, of course. Parliament gets elected every four year, and if Parliament decides to amend things, of course it can and will.

Note that Germany deplored Brexit but never questioned the democratic legitimacy of the UK to decide this way.

If Germany came to the conclusion that it would prefer to leave the EU, of course Parliament could decide to do so. What Merkel said was that she can't accept that a group of people question the legitimacy of European institutions that German Parliament has approved with an overwhelming majority.

"Or was the original European Economic Community a Good Thing, a voluntary thing, while the current European Union is the Neo-Carolingian Empire in disguise? The problem with giving up local freedoms is the difficulty in keeping Any freedoms at all."

The original EEC started as an economical union, but only because this seemed to be the most acceptable way of starting the long way to union. Remember that the EEC was founded years before the landmark Elysee Treaty between France and Germany. Eastern Europe wasn't on the horizon as nobody thought the Soviet Union would relinquishing control over it within 40 years.

Mrs Davis, Germany certainly carries weight in the EU, but it doesn't dominate it. France would never allow this, nor would the other nations agree to it.

Reunification didn't make Germany more dominant, the opening of the East did.

The national parliaments still have most of the say in Europe. The European Parliament is in a difficult position because it can't replace or overrule the national parliaments. So its ole is largely advisory.

The EU Commission might seen undemocratic by many, but it actually executes the will of the European nations. It's not an independent body that tells the European nations what to do (although you can be forgiven to get the impression it does).

It often rather serves as a scapegoat, when it decides things that the leaders of the European nations actually want but don't want to be responsible for. "Europe makes us do it" is usually a blatant lie.
Posted by European Conservative 2018-12-30 19:47||   2018-12-30 19:47|| Front Page Top

#36 Please carry over for comments from the early risers and rebuttal from the esteemed EC.

Very good, Mrs. Davis, though I think this is the first time in Rantburg history that an article has been carried over for a second day. I agree that this is a very useful discussion.

European Conservative, herzlichen Dank for your translation and for the thoughtful presentation of your arguments.

Now to fix the title, which for reasons that passeth understanding has once again mislaid half its words. I have no idea why occasionally an article will repeatedly partially shed title verbiage.
Posted by trailing wife 2018-12-30 20:06||   2018-12-30 20:06|| Front Page Top

#37 @tw

The debate goes to the heart of the matter. "Sovereignty" has different meaning in the U.S. and Europe.

The EU certainly needs to be reformed, but in the end a few hard decisions will have to be made. I don't think we can go back to the EEC or the EC. Russia is already trying to regain influence in its own backyard. China is buying into Eastern and Southern Europe as well.

And yet the European nations aren't ready for the United States of Europe. So things will get quite complicated.

What I do know is that transatlantic friendship mustn't be jeopardized. We may be rivals, but we are friends, too, with common values that neither China, Russia nor the Islamic world share.
Posted by European Conservative 2018-12-30 20:37||   2018-12-30 20:37|| Front Page Top

#38 Incidentally, Mrs. Davis, are you resuming an old nym or are you an entirely new user of it?
Posted by trailing wife 2018-12-30 20:46||   2018-12-30 20:46|| Front Page Top

#39 #37 - The nation currently known as the USA was once an association under the articles of confederation. That didn't work so well!
One wonders if Europe is meeting a similar inflection point.
Posted by 3dc 2018-12-30 20:52||   2018-12-30 20:52|| Front Page Top

#40 The EU certainly needs to be reformed,

It refuses to reform and continues to lie. Hence the EUSSR "army" which will undoubtedly be used on to suppress nations which do not follow the EUSSR's rules.

I'm so glad my Nation the U.K. is leaving and I think the economy will have next to zero problems, although the MSM will make you think things are bad.

Just look at the Icelandic experience when they told the EUSSR to GFT.
Posted by Bright Pebbles 2018-12-30 20:53||   2018-12-30 20:53|| Front Page Top

#41 I'm the same old Mrs. Davis. Gray wouldn't have it any other way.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2018-12-30 21:32||   2018-12-30 21:32|| Front Page Top

#42 What I do know is that transatlantic friendship mustn't be jeopardized. We may be rivals, but we are friends, too, with common values that neither China, Russia nor the Islamic world share.

Hear, hear.

I'm the same old Mrs. Davis.

How delightful to have you back under a nym I’m so fond of, my dear.
Posted by trailing wife 2018-12-30 21:40||   2018-12-30 21:40|| Front Page Top

#43 I suggest to the world that you bow to reality and common sense. Surrender now to Texas and get favored status:) You don't want to wait until your like California. Join the Future. Join Texas:p
Posted by Silentbrick 2018-12-30 23:05||   2018-12-30 23:05|| Front Page Top

#44 Merkel already said Europe's future is with China. After Trump dumped the Paris agreement, that was it. China has tons of money to invest, Europe wants out from under the boot heel of the warmongering Americans. It's win-win.

As far as "common values", Europe and America are both being changed by massive immigration. The estrangement will proceed along natural lines. The new Europeans have different values, and along with old Europeans they don't like nor agree with the American values of racism and warmongering.
Posted by Herb McCoy 2018-12-31 06:37||   2018-12-31 06:37|| Front Page Top

#45 Indeed, TW. I wondered the same thing about the nym, having met you and him at the same time and place. Rantapalooza!
Posted by Bobby 2018-12-31 10:04||   2018-12-31 10:04|| Front Page Top

#46 She is stressing that the legitimacy of those institutions (EU, UN, WTO) has long been decided by German parliament (and Supreme Court), so a group of people which says it speaks for the German people can't put this legitimacy (and transfer of sovereignty) in question. Only Parliament can.

This runs counter to a concept many of us hold dear which is that the people are sovereign. Your parliament can only derive its legitimacy from the people. I think that's what the British people told their parliament when they held that referendum on the EU. British politicians would do well to heed what their people told them. Britain has a long history of resisting European dictators such as King Phillip II, Napoleon and Hitler regardless of the price.

In some ways I can understand a concept like the EU where all of the member countries are democracies and they share many common interests. It's difficult here in the United States where we have blue states like New York and California with their socialist tendencies pitted against red states like Texas and Wyoming whose people tend to despise government interference in their lives. I can see similar difficulties in the EU when Merkel insists they must all accept a massive influx of immigrants from places like Syria. No matter what the German parliament or any other parliament says, Europe's native population will rightfully reject this edict. It is quite likely that the civil strife will be overwhelming when elite EU politicians attempt to impose such odious policies upon the people.

As for the UN, it is dominated by countries whose governments are anything but democratic or legitimate. Therefore the UN cannot claim to be a legitimate governing body. The people of the United States will never surrender sovereignty to the likes of Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin or the ayatollahs in Iran without a fight.

Posted by Abu Uluque 2018-12-31 13:39||   2018-12-31 13:39|| Front Page Top

#47 “patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism [because] nationalism is treason.”


We fought a revolution over that. Looks like there is a low-grade conflict within going on over this now. DS versus the patriots.
Posted by JohnQC 2018-12-31 14:00||   2018-12-31 14:00|| Front Page Top

#48 Abu Aluque hits the jackpot on the concept of sovereignty. EC says

Germany had transferred part of its sovereignty rights to the European Union. "But the states are the masters of the treaties". This would always require the support and decision of the national parliament. The heart of democracy is the parliament.

No American would ever say the U. S. had transferred its sovereignty because it doesn't belong to the U. S. it belongs to We the People. And no American would ever say the heart of democracy is the Congress.

This is a fundamental difference between us and the EUropeans. They see the state as the sovereign, going back to the days of the kings. They see their rights as coming from the state. We see them coming from the Creator.

Later on he says:

I can't think of a country that has given up less sovereignty than the U.S.

And I can't think of a country that has less sovereignty to give up than the U. S.

This distinction will prove to be of consequence for EUrope as unassimilated Muslims become a greater proportion of the electorate, as they must given differing fertility rates. Who will they recognize as Sovereign? Germany or the EU? Or Turkey?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2018-12-31 15:02||   2018-12-31 15:02|| Front Page Top

#49 This distinction will prove to be of consequence for EUrope as unassimilated Muslims become a greater proportion of the electorate, as they must given differing fertility rates. Who will they recognize as Sovereign? Germany or the EU? Or Turkey?

An unconstrained North Africa and ME will be the end of Europe. Vlad is counting on it.
Posted by Besoeker 2018-12-31 15:07||   2018-12-31 15:07|| Front Page Top

#50 An unconstrained North Africa and ME will be the end of Europe. Vlad is counting on it.

Vlad very likely is planning the next Crusade being the Russian reconquest of Europe for Christendom.
Posted by trailing wife 2018-12-31 15:19||   2018-12-31 15:19|| Front Page Top

#51 @Abu Uluque

"This runs counter to a concept many of us hold dear which is that the people are sovereign. Your parliament can only derive its legitimacy from the people."

The concept isn't any different in Germany. All power is derived from the people, including that vested in Parliament.

I don't think that people were told the truth about the consequences of Brexit, especially those of a hard Brexit. Should the people not vote on the outcome of the negotiations?

Is this the Brexit they voted for? (At least the slim majority of those who actually voted).

Here the New Year will start in one hour, so I wish you all a Happy New 2019 and many more fruitful discussions.
Posted by European Conservative 2018-12-31 17:03||   2018-12-31 17:03|| Front Page Top

#52 Happy New Year EC, and everyone on Rantburg.
Posted by Whiskey Mike 2018-12-31 17:14||   2018-12-31 17:14|| Front Page Top

#53 The Ottomans lost the battle in 1688 but may win the war...due to yellow-bellied surrender by drunken Junkers, et al..
Posted by DooDahMan 2018-12-31 17:55||   2018-12-31 17:55|| Front Page Top

#54 >Is this the Brexit they voted for?

Yes totally. We voted to exit the EU, exit the customs cartel and control the border.

It was made extremely clear, and I can find the videos If you like. Are you one of those who think the people need another go at getting the answer right? I feel once the lie that a bunch of far-left maoists are needed to run the British economy other countries will try and go. Whether the EUSSR army lets them is another thing.

The consequences of WTO only Brexit are hard for the EUSSR, but I believe the UK will be fine.
Posted by Bright Pebbles 2018-12-31 19:11||   2018-12-31 19:11|| Front Page Top

#55 Happy New Year the firework noise has died down.
Posted by Bright Pebbles 2018-12-31 19:11||   2018-12-31 19:11|| Front Page Top

23:45 JohnQC
22:47 Injun Bucket8891
22:43 Injun Bucket8891
21:47 Bright Pebbles
21:24 trailing wife
21:10 Slins Chong3776
20:19 Bright Pebbles
19:21 Anomalous Sources
19:14 CrazyFool
19:12 Anomalous Sources
19:11 Bright Pebbles
19:11 Bright Pebbles
19:08 Anomalous Sources
18:21 Silentbrick
18:12 Besoeker
18:10 Besoeker
17:58 Frank G
17:55 DooDahMan
17:25 Frank G
17:14 Whiskey Mike
17:03 European Conservative
17:02 Mullah Richard
16:51 charger
16:49 Lonzo Flinetle6280









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