Article

2011-02-21 Arabia

Plea for help to all chemists on the burg!

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Posted by Lionel Unoluger6791 2011-02-21 09:05|| || Front Page|| [11129 views ] Top

#1 "~~tear~~ nerve gas" FTFY

I'm sure that the Obama administration will condemn this violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993 ... real soon ... imminently ... any minute ...

More on nerve gases here. (Wikipedia)

Posted by CincinnatusChili 2011-02-21 10:41|| 2011-02-21 10:41|| Front Page Top

#2 Sounds like a nerve agent. But if not, most of the pharmacological prophylactics and treatments can cause equally bad symptoms. And are probably difficult to obtain in any case. As a preventive: wear a gas mask or avoid exposure are about the only options. As a treatment: fresh air, time, and wash everything possible with soap or detergent.

Not very helpful, but there isn't much you can do about nerve agents. That's why they use them.

Posted by Bigfoot Angereper8685 2011-02-21 10:53|| 2011-02-21 10:53|| Front Page Top

#3 Heavy-Duty Insecticides do the same thing. Our family Marine tells us that they found lots of 'empty' CW shells during the 2003 Iraq invasion. In adjacent rooms or buildings were drums of E605 insecticide. Nope, no WMDs there.

Posted by Mullah Richard 2011-02-21 10:55|| 2011-02-21 10:55|| Front Page Top

#4 Some nerve gases condense as oily liquids & stick to skin & clothing. If you have nothing else, use plain water in vast amounts to rinse off contact points. Handle victims with impermeable rubber gloves.
Previous news items on the 'Burg years back told of Iraqi IED's using nerve gas shells. Those who devised them were probably ignorant of the contents of those shells.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2011-02-21 11:03|| 2011-02-21 11:03|| Front Page Top

#5 Symptoms sound like chloropicrin -- nitrous chloroform mixed with tear gas

Posted by Fred 2011-02-21 11:05|| 2011-02-21 11:05|| Front Page Top

#6 Thx, judging by the symptoms ([5] Tests have shown that chloropicrin causes humans to shut their eyes involuntarily.[3] Chloropicrin can be absorbed systemically through inhalation, ingestion, and the skin. It is severely irritating to the lungs, eyes, and skin.[6]) chloropicrin is a good candidate, the only thing i can find on methods of dispersal is: " Because of these properties, chloropicrin can only be delivered in shell form as a chemical weapon.[5]"

So a full chem-suit looks like the only protection, but if the nutbags are firing artillery at the protesters, the gas maybe the least of their problems, damn.

Posted by Lionel Unoluger6791 2011-02-21 11:26|| 2011-02-21 11:26|| Front Page Top

#7 Don't overlook that CS has the same effects in higher concentrations, powdered form and a different propellant or aerosol agent. It can knock you immediately prostrate, blind, coughing, and due to the powder form, once inhaled can induce bleeding in the lining of the throat (explains the blood), as well as nausea (explains the vomiting). Add in the propensity for people to have psychological reactions, and the propensity for people to exaggerate effects, and one could be skeptical.

Using an insecticide or industrial solvent to aerosolize powdered CS would be within their capability, and they are likely not forward thinking enough to realize the physiological impact of compositional changes - after all, Muhammad (Piss be upon him) never wrote a treatise on organic chemistry therefore it is likely haram.

Posted by OldSpook 2011-02-21 11:48|| 2011-02-21 11:48|| Front Page Top

#8 In that incident in the Russian theatre a few years back I recall that some form of anesthetic was used. Perhaps this is a combination of several different chemicals, either in one container, or perhaps several things were tried simultaneously?

Posted by gorb 2011-02-21 12:05|| 2011-02-21 12:05|| Front Page Top

#9 Don't overlook that CS has the same effects

CS? Translation please, for those of us following with ignorant interest. Thank you!

Posted by trailing wife 2011-02-21 12:43|| 2011-02-21 12:43|| Front Page Top

#10 2-Chlorobenzalmalononitrile, or nerve gas to its users.

Posted by Steven 2011-02-21 12:57|| 2011-02-21 12:57|| Front Page Top

#11 nerve gas to its users.

More like good ol' riot control tear gas. Nerve agents are typically organo-phosphates and tend to be lethal.

Posted by SteveS 2011-02-21 13:05|| 2011-02-21 13:05|| Front Page Top

#12 CS? Translation please, for those of us following with ignorant interest. Thank you!

CS = Tear Gas (or at least one variant)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

Basically any of the riot control agents in large enough concentrations could cause any of the described effects,its not very specific enough unfortunately. Hell even pepper spray combined with CS could have those effects in high concentrations.

Posted by Valentine 2011-02-21 13:10|| 2011-02-21 13:10|| Front Page Top

#13 CS is a military designation for a riot control agent. It is NOT a "nerve gas", it attacks and irritates mucous membranes, upper respiratory tract and skin, but especially hits the tear duct systems.

If they had used a nerve agent, like VX, one of the G agents (e.g Sarin) or similar, there would have been mass casualties.

Again, do not discount the effects of panic combined with riot agent - if you've ever been exposed to the stuff you are likely to panic. It feels like your eyes cannot open and you cannot breathe - a "someone stuffed a sock in my mouth" feeling when trying to breath, and if you are prone to panic you will - blind, burning, gasping - and if you accidentally swallow the contaminated mucous while gasping, you will vomit violently when the CS hits your stomach.

Anyone that's been through boot camp has had minor exposure of this sort to 1% CS gas. Trust me on this one, 5% powder make the 1% in the boot camp gas chamber seem like a walk in the park on a clear spring day.

Posted by OldSpook 2011-02-21 13:25|| 2011-02-21 13:25|| Front Page Top

#14 PIMF: ...if you've ~~ever~~ never been exposed...

Posted by OldSpook 2011-02-21 13:27|| 2011-02-21 13:27|| Front Page Top

#15 Thank you, guys. So if it's merely a Western-style riot control product they need only wait for it to wear off, preferably washing with soap and water and changing clothing to prevent recontamination. If it is something worse (are the Mullahcracy's thugs likely to be more benign than Colonel Qadaffi's, or Saddam Hussein's?) then quite a few of them are already -- or soon to be -- dead. Yes?

Do the stronger war chemicals linger in the environment, or do they break down quickly, like Round-Up? If they linger, I would thing even a tyrannical oligarchy would hesitate to destroy their own nest...

Posted by trailing wife 2011-02-21 13:35|| 2011-02-21 13:35|| Front Page Top

#16 ...Old Spook, as always, speaks wisdom - CS in heavy enough concentrations can cause some pretty grim effects. We should however take into consideration the possibility that the Mad Mullah Chemical and Shwarma Company may have decided to come up with some new witches' brew on its own, and these poor SOBs are the field trials.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2011-02-21 13:38|| 2011-02-21 13:38|| Front Page Top

#17 I would guess a vomiting agent like DM (maybe w/ CS) would cause the symptoms listed. DM can be deactivated with a baking soda and water solution. So take a cloth, soak it in the solution and breathe through that as an expedient measure and get the heck out of the gas.

While looking up the molecule on wiki, it said the North Koreans still stockpile it and would be a likely source for Iran.

Posted by Pearl Gleaper1127 2011-02-21 14:08|| 2011-02-21 14:08|| Front Page Top

#18 Once out of danger, decontaminate w/ the baking soda solution and soap and water.

Posted by Pearl Gleaper1127 2011-02-21 14:10|| 2011-02-21 14:10|| Front Page Top

#19 Fun fact: nerve gas is nothing but bug spray for humans. Rearrange a couple molecules of the can of Raid in your closet and you get Sarin.

Posted by gromky 2011-02-21 14:16|| 2011-02-21 14:16|| Front Page Top

#20 Of course, gassing civilians is, in this context, simply a "quaint local custom," and we westerners "have no right to judge..."

/spit

Posted by M.Murcek 2011-02-21 15:26|| 2011-02-21 15:26|| Front Page Top

#21
"I gotta tell you abdul,
*ack*gag*puke*
at least we're not being gassed by infidels!"

Posted by Frank G 2011-02-21 16:01|| 2011-02-21 16:01|| Front Page Top

#22 Oldspook "Anyone that's been through boot camp has had minor exposure of this sort to 1% CS gas. Trust me on this one, 5% powder make the 1% in the boot camp gas chamber seem like a walk in the park on a clear spring day"

Roger THAT! I've been hit with both.
Note on wash down: when rinsing the powder off of your skin and hair, do NOT let water get near your eyes.

Posted by Whusogum Tingle9265 2011-02-21 16:08|| 2011-02-21 16:08|| Front Page Top

#23 Sounds like they'll need a shower. It doesn't sound all that convenient when you're talking about impromptu field medical service in a square full of protesters. This kind of service would have to be organized, and the thugs would take it down in minutes if it was.

Posted by gorb 2011-02-21 16:20|| 2011-02-21 16:20|| Front Page Top

#24 How about a big dunk tank full of water and anything alkaline, like baking soda?

Posted by gorb 2011-02-21 16:22|| 2011-02-21 16:22|| Front Page Top

#25 Unless someone who knows the particulars of this agent and delivery medium, I would suggest against a dunk tank as I have been tought not only can that make a funky soup but some nasties float making it impossible to get out of the solution without recontaminating.

In general, running water/solution, keep it away from eyes, ears, nose, mouth, open wounds, other orifices as much as possible. Keep out of the run-off. Do not re-use scrubbing items if possible.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-02-21 17:01|| 2011-02-21 17:01|| Front Page Top

#26 My bad on the "nerve" gas designation.

Posted by Steven 2011-02-21 17:26|| 2011-02-21 17:26|| Front Page Top

#27 Most vomiting agents have a delayed response so by the time you notice symptoms, it is too late to take protective measures. If the symptoms have immediate onset upon exposure, it is not likely a vomiting agent but could be one mixed with CS or other standard crowd control agent.

Note that other crowd control agents such as CN can produce other symptoms such as the "semi paralysis" mentioned but actually it is a loss of balance and a disoriented feeling that prevents people getting up and running away.

The Russians used a synthetic opiate in that theater, basically what amounts to "morphine gas".

Posted by crosspatch 2011-02-21 19:15|| 2011-02-21 19:15|| Front Page Top

#28 This seems like strong CS, with possibly some extra "stuff" to make it easy to dispense, to mark people, or make it hard to get off. As described above, soap & lots of water should be an effective approach. Avoid the dirty water and contaminated clothes afterward.

If that isn't working, send more info about the situation.

Also, don't panic. If they were spraying anything really lethal, few people exposed would be able to report it. Many people would have died in less than an hour. Even the low density Sarin from Aum Shinrikyo killed a dozen people right away. Compare what is described to this article for accounts of an attack by mustard gas from the Iran-Iraq war. http://www.nj.com/specialprojects/index.ssf?/specialprojects/mideaststories/me1209.html

Posted by rammer 2011-02-21 19:56|| 2011-02-21 19:56|| Front Page Top

#29 The Russians used an aerosol fentanyl derivative about 8-9 years ago. It hit and then quickly exceeded the LD50 concentration in enclosed spaces, generally being fatal.

Doc Steve can better explain fentanyl if you need it. This was not fentanyl.

As for CS or CN recovery, a garden hose hooke to a faucet (flowing clean water) and some baking soda if available, and a bit of care can get that resolved quickly - or simply time.

Posted by OldSpook 2011-02-21 20:01|| 2011-02-21 20:01|| Front Page Top

23:58 USN,Ret
23:42 SteveS
23:08 badanov
22:43 JosephMendiola
22:39 Procopius2k
22:38 Barbara Skolaut
22:37 Procopius2k
22:34 Procopius2k
22:31 Pappy
22:29 crosspatch
22:26 Pappy
22:25 Procopius2k
22:22 JosephMendiola
22:04 swksvolFF
22:02 JosephMendiola
21:58 Jack Salami
21:56 Bright Pebbles
21:55 Ebbaiter Poodle4718
21:50 Ebbaiter Poodle4718
21:46 M. Murcek
21:44 JosephMendiola
21:41 OldSpook
21:39 rwv
21:38 JosephMendiola