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2008-09-20 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia
Russia does not want new Iron Curtain: Medvedev
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Posted by Fred 2008-09-20 00:00|| || Front Page|| [10326 views ]  Top

#1 KOMMERSANT > MEDVEDEV HOPES THAT WASHINGTON WON'T CHOOSE PRESIDENTS FOR RUSSIA. Infers that US elements are desirous of exerting [pro-US?]decisive influence on a host of Russ professional, managerial, labor and political classes, etc.???
Posted by JosephMendiola 2008-09-20 00:56||   2008-09-20 00:56|| Front Page Top

#2 Amazing what a turn around the Russians have made. Apparantly being dissed by the world and having investment dry up and financial markets meltdown has helped the Oligarchs come to their senses.
Posted by rjschwarz 2008-09-20 02:18||   2008-09-20 02:18|| Front Page Top

#3 " NATO is unable to protect Europe from the menace of...umm...us."
Posted by Grunter 2008-09-20 08:15||   2008-09-20 08:15|| Front Page Top

#4 This is just the Russian's way of saying, "Nice continent you have there. Be a shame if something happened to it."

The Soviet's, and now Russia's, goal for the past 60 years has been to split Europe from the USA.
Posted by ed 2008-09-20 08:57||   2008-09-20 08:57|| Front Page Top

#5 The Soviet's, and now Russia's, goal for the past 60 years has been to split Europe from the USA.

Even if were to watch History Channel, it is clear how the U.S. purposefully aided and abetted to the partition of Europe into the "zones of influence" first in Yalta in 1943, then in Potsdam in 1945. That goes for the "Soviet" goal.
As for Russia, it does not have such silly goals.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 09:24||   2008-09-20 09:24|| Front Page Top

#6 Russia is a criminal enterprise. GC's propaganda notwithstanding, they got a dose of reality in their stock drop this week and the fleeing of investment when the thuggery became more obvious.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-09-20 09:35||   2008-09-20 09:35|| Front Page Top

#7 General_Committee of the CCCP must have forgot his Yalta history lessons. That's where Truman and Churchill demanded free elections and Stalin demanded a sphere of influence (sounds familiar even today). So GC where were the free elections Stalin promised?
Posted by ed 2008-09-20 09:55||   2008-09-20 09:55|| Front Page Top

#8 Someone here has forgotten that the Red Army occupied most of Eastern Europe by May '45. And the lines of separation pretty much were the result of both sides committing their total resources just to get where they did. While Lend-Lease aided the effort, the heavy load was done by the Soviets themselves. So I'm interested in the 'rationale' explanation of what alternative [outside the ridiculous proposition that we should have made a deal with Hitler or that we should have gone immediately to war directly with the Soviet Union] both the US and England had in moving them out of where they stood.
Posted by Procopius2k 2008-09-20 10:19||   2008-09-20 10:19|| Front Page Top

#9 Is General Comment Aris?
Posted by Betty Grating2215 2008-09-20 10:37||   2008-09-20 10:37|| Front Page Top

#10 Truman A dying Roosevelt. Truman attended Potsdam.
Posted by ed 2008-09-20 10:41||   2008-09-20 10:41|| Front Page Top

#11 I don't think GC is Aris. But we mods have our ways of finding things out ...
Posted by Steve White 2008-09-20 11:08||   2008-09-20 11:08|| Front Page Top

#12 Is General Comment Aris?   No.
Posted by lotp 2008-09-20 11:09||   2008-09-20 11:09|| Front Page Top

#13 Not iron, a vinyl curtain.
Posted by Perfesser 2008-09-20 11:11||   2008-09-20 11:11|| Front Page Top

#14 While Lend-Lease aided the effort, the heavy load was done by the Soviets themselves.


Soviet Union vastly exagerated its 1941 and 1942 (the numbers simply don't match when you contrast what was on the front and what the Germans alleged to have destroyed) so the Allie"d contributions looked indignificant by comparison.

Also Russai din't build a single locomotive in teh war. It was the Allies who provided so the Soviets could cioncentrate on tanks not to mention the contributions in factory equipment or raw materials.

Also in 1941, the resources used in building U-Boots would have allowed to double the production of the Mark IV (the best Ger!an tank). IN 1942, 40% of German war spending was used to fight the allies.

I will pass what would have happened to 19444 and 1945 Soviet aces if they had meet in 1942 when they were still green all those planes and seasoned Germn pilots who were fighting the Allies. Not to mention the havoc those thousands of 88 guns would have caused on the Soviet Armor if they had been deployed in the East as AT guns instead of in the West in the AA role.

But all of this is a moot point. It was Soviet Union's backstabbing of Russia and indirect help lent to Germany againbst France who caused Germany beung so close to win teh war and the Allies having to undertake the ibdredibly difficult operation of an amphibious landing.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2008-09-20 12:08||   2008-09-20 12:08|| Front Page Top

#15 they got a dose of reality in their stock drop this week and the fleeing of investment when the thuggery became more obvious.

Frankie, just this quote amptly illustrates that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Also, just go check RTS for the last Friday's numbers.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 13:41||   2008-09-20 13:41|| Front Page Top

#16 Everybody's stock numbers went up on Friday, General_Comment, after the US$500 trillion bailout was announced, coupled with the temporary halt of naked short selling.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-09-20 13:44||   2008-09-20 13:44|| Front Page Top

#17 JFM's post is a bunch of linguistic vomit, so I'll skipp addressing that one altogether, except noting that U.S. has done virtually nothing until late 1944. Speak with German war veterans, they will tell you that the Eastern Front was the "hell on Earth," and if they had a choice they would have picked up the Western Front any second. Also, if you look at German's losses, that's where the major losses occured. Land lease since you mentioned it was a drop in the bucket.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 13:45||   2008-09-20 13:45|| Front Page Top

#18 What U.S. does matters less and less in view of the rise of China. Also whatever U.S. does with Russia is just 4% of the Russian foreign trade.

Even if everybody's numbers went up, the fact the numbers went down before that just verified my point that RTS is populated by sleazy american speculators.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 13:49||   2008-09-20 13:49|| Front Page Top

#19 Why American speculators, General_Comment? The problems in the U.S. stem in significant part from very large sums of money coming from Asia and the Middle East, from what I understand. Sleazy speculation is a hobby of the monied around the world, and the monied Russians are no less enthusiastic hobbyists than the rest.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-09-20 13:57||   2008-09-20 13:57|| Front Page Top

#20 tw, true, but it is the scale issue. Primarily U.S. based pension funds, and hedge funds.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 14:03||   2008-09-20 14:03|| Front Page Top

#21 German war veterans preferred the Western front because their Western opponents were civilized. Those conquered by the Germans preferred to be liberated by Western armies for exactly the same reason. And of course, General_Comment, you will note that World War II, like World War I, started as a local European war that required the U.S. to cross the ocean to end. I say this despite the fact that my maternal grandfather earnt an Iron Cross for something or other in the first one, which of course mattered not a whit to the Nazis his countrymen elected before the second.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-09-20 14:06||   2008-09-20 14:06|| Front Page Top

#22 Primarily U.S. based pension funds, and hedge funds.

The more fools they, then. Russia has been called the Wild East because of the lack of rule of law ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union. When Mr. Wife's company expanded there after he'd been involved in opening the Eastern European markets, they made a point of owning* the factories and distribution centers, to at least control quality and reduce the percentage of deliveries that went missing. The experience was quite useful when the company entered the Chinese market.

*I can't remember whether it was Russia or China or both that allowed foreigners to own only a 49% share of domestic companies. However, the American company Mr. Wife works for always makes sure they have control. No Chinese milk debacles for them.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-09-20 14:23||   2008-09-20 14:23|| Front Page Top

#23 Mister General Comment.

My assertions are based on facts and statistics (and spare me chapes jikes about statistics. I can gibne the complete numbers for every one of my quantitative assertions.

There were two who are npt quantitative. That Soviet Uniojn aallied with the Nazis to bri,ng down Poland and that Soviet Union helped Nazi Germany against France by providing it with raw ùaterials (notably oil) and through the action of the Communist Party.

Anyway I stand by what I said, if Sovoet Unuion lost so many men it was duie to her own treachery. It was not teh white knight in its shining armor but a gangster in conflict with another gnsgster.

Alos: I wnated to praise the Russian soldier who was not guilty of Stalin deeds and whose superiors
disn't hesitate a second in using him for clearing mines by detonation. Then I rembered the rapes. I can understand but not justify what happened in Germany ((with Stalin's poet Ilya Ehernburg calling for "breaking the racial pride of the German woman") given what Germans had done in Russia, but they did the same as well in Hungary or Rumania (on paper Axis allies) as in Poland or Czechoslowakia. So sorry I cannot praise them.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2008-09-20 14:26||   2008-09-20 14:26|| Front Page Top

#24 Alos Germas who fought in Normansy told of the Material Schlage. Never in teh East front had they met such firepower. Never had they been stopped on the trcaks the way they were in the West.

And unlike in the Eastern Front Allied artillery strikes diid not stop after a few salvos (the Soviets had nay guns but few shells per gun) or as soon as the front moved a few miles (the Soviets relied on filed phones) and unless that by luck the target was on a preset point the Soviet artillery was never able to send shells just five minutes after a German movement was detected like the Allies routinely did.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2008-09-20 14:37||   2008-09-20 14:37|| Front Page Top

#25 "German war veterans preferred the Western front because their Western opponents were civilized. Those conquered by the Germans preferred to be liberated by Western armies for exactly the same reason."

TW, I just have one question for you: were Germans civilized between 1939-1945????
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 17:43||   2008-09-20 17:43|| Front Page Top

#26 Some yes, some no
Posted by European Conservative 2008-09-20 17:51||   2008-09-20 17:51|| Front Page Top

#27 same could be said of Americans - the majority were good, but some were communists
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-09-20 17:55||   2008-09-20 17:55|| Front Page Top

#28 That's not what I'm trying to say.
But "civilisation" is a thin crust
Posted by European Conservative 2008-09-20 18:07||   2008-09-20 18:07|| Front Page Top

#29 "'civilisation' is a thin crust"

True dat, EC.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut  2008-09-20 18:08|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]  2008-09-20 18:08|| Front Page Top

#30 The question was posed to TW, not you Frank G.
Reading comprehension?
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 18:10||   2008-09-20 18:10|| Front Page Top

#31 EC - my comment was my own, and not trying to interpret yours. I stand by mine. GC? I'll respond to any comments I wish, this is not Russia, where dissenters are silenced.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-09-20 18:12||   2008-09-20 18:12|| Front Page Top

#32 When manners were distributed some went into hiding, obviously
Posted by European Conservative 2008-09-20 18:12||   2008-09-20 18:12|| Front Page Top

#33 directed to GC
Posted by European Conservative 2008-09-20 18:13||   2008-09-20 18:13|| Front Page Top

#34 FG, you CAN respond to any questions you want, another question is SHOULD you?
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 18:15||   2008-09-20 18:15|| Front Page Top

#35 EC, I am sure what you mean by " 'civilisation' is a thin crust." Could you pls clarify a bit.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 18:18||   2008-09-20 18:18|| Front Page Top

#36 EC, meant to say . . . not sure. not
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 18:20||   2008-09-20 18:20|| Front Page Top

#37 I enjoy tweaking you. Weak authoritarians have such thin skin. That's enough for today, maybe ;-)
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-09-20 18:21||   2008-09-20 18:21|| Front Page Top

#38 FG, I am not necessarily authoritarian, but even if I were I would not have the thin skin, b/c I do not feel the need to apologize . . . . Those who feel the need to justify or apologize can be "tweaked."
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 18:34||   2008-09-20 18:34|| Front Page Top

#39 TW, I just have one question for you: were Germans civilized between 1939-1945????

Do you think the Germans were civilized during that period, General_Comment?

My formerly German mother just called me to say hello, and wished me to share her thoughts on the question. In her opinion the Germans at the time certainly considered themselves to be civilized, but she strongly disagrees. Are they now, is perhaps a better question. Mama shared the following tale to illustrate her answer:

It seems the gentleman who hid my grandparents and a dozen or so other Jews during the war was proposed for the Verdienstkreuz for it, the highest honorecently ur Germany can award a civilian. A ceremony was arranged at which the German ambassador to The Hague made the presentation to the elderly hero, now a professor emeritus. But it quickly became clear that the ambassador knew nothing of the man to whom he was awarding the medal, nothing of the exploits for which the country he represents chose to honour him, and rather resented having to take time from his busy schedule to be there. Openly insulting, in other words.

That is the behaviour of a man the German government hired to represent them to the outside world, to show the world what their very best look like. Mama asks, "Would you call that civilized?"
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-09-20 18:43||   2008-09-20 18:43|| Front Page Top

#40 I give the Soviets a ton of credit for stopping the Nazi's with the blood of the Russian people. Well done. Then what happened? Don't even try to justify any other Soviet acts on this board, we all know history a bit too well for any of that nonsense to float.
Posted by rjschwarz 2008-09-20 18:43||   2008-09-20 18:43|| Front Page Top

#41 Being "civilized" means rather little.
Having moral integrity means the world
Posted by European Conservative 2008-09-20 18:50||   2008-09-20 18:50|| Front Page Top

#42 Sorry. honorecently ur should be honour.

And of course, European Conservative is right, both for individuals and nations.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-09-20 19:01||   2008-09-20 19:01|| Front Page Top

#43 "I give the Soviets a ton of credit for stopping the Nazi's with the blood of the Russian people."

At least that blood that wasn't frozen in the Gulags.
Posted by Milton Fandango 2008-09-20 19:05||   2008-09-20 19:05|| Front Page Top

#44 The Russian people had to enemies:

The Nazis in front and the kommissar in the back
Posted by European Conservative 2008-09-20 19:12||   2008-09-20 19:12|| Front Page Top

#45 Russia does not want new Iron Curtain



Then quit being a dick.
Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-09-20 19:12||   2008-09-20 19:12|| Front Page Top

#46 Interestingly, according to the editors of the Wall Street Journal, the top two holders of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debt are the Chinese and Russian governments. link -- scroll about halfway down. Perhaps that has something to do both with the situation of the Russian stock exchange and President Medvedev's statement.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-09-20 19:21||   2008-09-20 19:21|| Front Page Top

#47 I don't think GC is Aris.
Aris was smarter.
Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-09-20 19:22||   2008-09-20 19:22|| Front Page Top

#48 "the top two holders of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debt are the Chinese and Russian governments"

Thanks, tw.

Cockles. Heart. Warm.

There's a silver lining in every cloud. :-D
Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut  2008-09-20 19:39|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]  2008-09-20 19:39|| Front Page Top

#49 bigjim-ky, could you give me your age bracket, I don't need your exact age.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 21:12||   2008-09-20 21:12|| Front Page Top

#50 don't provide it, deny the Stalinist information collection at all points
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-09-20 21:27||   2008-09-20 21:27|| Front Page Top

#51 Old enough to remember the cold war and all the bullshit russia pulled all over the world. Arming marxist guerillas in central and south america and invading Afghanistan. Not old enough for the duck and cover stuff, but old enough to be constantly reminded that we WOULD have a nuclear war some day and it would destroy the planet. Young enough to be a Beavis and Butthead fan.
Old enough to be a John Wayne fan.
Young enough to go back and get my degree.
Old enough to remember watching the wall come down-live.
That's my age bracket.
Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-09-20 21:41||   2008-09-20 21:41|| Front Page Top

#52 bigjim-ky, a poetic response, dude.
Go have fun with buddies, drink some beer, leave this stuff to professionals.

And now a joke: American geologists were surprized to discover that above a significant deposits of an American oil there was . . . some Arab country! :)
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 22:28||   2008-09-20 22:28|| Front Page Top

#53 to #39 TW: As you can see that's basically supports my point about being careful to use the term "civilized." It is loaded and sometimes is a code word for "we are better than you are."
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 22:36||   2008-09-20 22:36|| Front Page Top

#54 Professionals?
I didn't know that they pay trolls.
Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-09-20 22:44||   2008-09-20 22:44|| Front Page Top

#55 troll away.
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 22:46||   2008-09-20 22:46|| Front Page Top

#56 does "ky" stand for redneck Kentucky?
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 22:47||   2008-09-20 22:47|| Front Page Top

#57 General_Contents - your troll content is already established ;-) go ahead
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-09-20 22:49||   2008-09-20 22:49|| Front Page Top

#58 General Comments, you are busted to coporal!

Now, go peel some potatoes, or bake me a cookie!
Posted by badanov 2008-09-20 22:53|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org]  2008-09-20 22:53|| Front Page Top

#59 I take it some did not appreciate my "American geologists" joke :)))))
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 23:06||   2008-09-20 23:06|| Front Page Top

#60 Frank, you just can't stand not be a plug in every hole. I thought you went to bed already . . .
Posted by General_Comment 2008-09-20 23:09||   2008-09-20 23:09|| Front Page Top

#61 expectations are destined to be dashed. Expect away ...heh
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2008-09-20 23:13||   2008-09-20 23:13|| Front Page Top

#62 General_Comment -- your "clever" sayings, your attempts at American humor, are beginning to wear a little thin --

Come with some facts, some thoughtful words -- and your stay will be extended.

Otherwise -- some reasonable actions are being considered.

Oh -- and get your time zones right... if you are going to banter with our regulars here, at least get to know where they are from. Sending folks off to bed (isn't it past your bedtime) at 4:00 in the afternoon -- just adds more to your not understanding, or having even enough knowledge to contribute here in Rantburg U.

(I don't often comment, 'cause I too, have little knowledge of topics often discussed here, but I do know when I can add a few cents to the conversation)

But, I'm smart enough to know, we Mods are watching... you might want to go play somewhere else, where your school-age humor, your lack of fully understanding our American slang doesn't so stand out with lots of the remarks you make..

You seem to want to practice your words, and our ways with us... trying on words, but your methods are lacking.

I really don't want to be witness to seeing you ban from Rantburg U. But, you just are not yet ready.
Posted by Sherry">Sherry  2008-09-20 23:38||   2008-09-20 23:38|| Front Page Top

#63 Why don't GC or the others ever recognize the War in the Pacific or India, or Oz or Alaska or China or the seas when they yell about the Soviets in WW-II

You would think the only theater of action was the Eastern Front.

The US was everywhere but the Eastern Front (although we did have experts observing it and some help...)
We supplied the fricking Eastern Front.
While the war raged we built over 130 carriers (all types) thousands and thousands of all else.

Fricking soviets didn't help in the East until after we basically won the war and then stole everything they could.

Bastards even imprisoned or pilots and troops that end up on their eastern shores..

FuckEm... A bunch of A-Holes.
Posted by 3dc 2008-09-20 23:54||   2008-09-20 23:54|| Front Page Top

#64 You don't accept it?
Look at the vids from Okinawa some time...
They NAZIs were pussies compared to the Japanese..
Posted by 3dc 2008-09-20 23:57||   2008-09-20 23:57|| Front Page Top

23:57 3dc
23:54 3dc
23:45 proud porkistani
23:38 Sherry
23:13 OldSpook
23:13 Frank G
23:12 Eohippus Uleter1840
23:09 General_Comment
23:07 Elminesh the Grim3043
23:06 General_Comment
23:03 Barbara Skolaut
22:54 FOTSGreg
22:53 badanov
22:49 Frank G
22:47 General_Comment
22:46 General_Comment
22:44 bigjim-ky
22:41 Oztralian
22:36 General_Comment
22:28 General_Comment
22:28 Barbara Skolaut
22:02 remoteman
21:41 bigjim-ky
21:27 Frank G









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