Article

2008-08-27 Europe

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Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 15:36|| || Front Page|| [11131 views ] Top

#1 "Fire Tanks?
Probably a mistranslation, but just what I'd want fighting a munitions fire.

Posted by Redneck Jim">Redneck Jim 2008-08-27 17:00|| 2008-08-27 17:00|| Front Page Top

#2 90 thousand tons of ammo threatened by a grass fire?

Somehow that stretches my ability to suspend belief.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg 2008-08-27 19:26|| 2008-08-27 19:26|| Front Page Top

#3 This depot fire is in line wid my belief that RUSSIA COVERTLY DENIABLY WANTS THE US-NATO/EU TO SET UP A MIL PRESENCE IN GEORGIA AND OTHER STRATEGIC FORMER SSRS, AS "COVER" TO HELP RUSSIA ISOLATE AND CONTAIN ITS ALLY FUTURE NUCLEAR IRAN/ISLAMISM. RUSSIA > IMO, desires a formal US-NATO/EU milfor presence, NOT A MILITARILY STRONG ANTI-RUSS GEORGIA.

Iff Georgia plays it cards right, it may get both desired modern national development + NATO-RUSS mil protection agz the LT threat of Radical Islam = Nuclear Iran, etc. DITTO FOR OTHER FORMER SOVIET SSRS.

* ION INTERFAX [paraph]> RUSSIA - NATO MAY NOT HAVE/KEEP AN UNLIMITED NUMBER OF WARSHIPS IN THE BLACK SEA; + EX-RUSS NAVY COMMANDER: NATO CAN STAY ONLY THREE WEEKS IN THE BLACK SEA.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2008-08-27 19:39|| 2008-08-27 19:39|| Front Page Top

#4 We must get them in Nato formally, NOW. Stop the foot dragging, get the paperwork signed, and station a brigade each of US, Polish, and German armor there with dutch/belgian/danish F-16 sqaudrons and a couple NATO squadrons (US Raptors, German and Brit Tornado ADV), with patriot missiles, logistics, etc.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-27 22:09|| 2008-08-27 22:09|| Front Page Top

#5 Also permanent NATO naval squadron in Odessa.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-27 22:09|| 2008-08-27 22:09|| Front Page Top

#6 FOTSGreg, it's kavyl, a type of sturdy brushy grass that by this time is quite dry. It is also much denser and twice as tall than elsewhere, up to 2m , due to chernozem--5-10 ft of rich black soil that covers a large portion of Ukraine. Ignited, it can create quite a hell and firestorms. Kiev burned down completely several times throughout history because it.

The question is whether, in this case, the fire was helped, initially.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 22:13|| 2008-08-27 22:13|| Front Page Top

#7 Joe, strange chess you play. Not of this earth. ;-)

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 22:15|| 2008-08-27 22:15|| Front Page Top

#8 Germans and Belgians, OldSpook? What on earth would they do there, besides be off duty? I know it isn't the fault of the troops, who are hamstrung by politician-imposed rules of engagement, but still. Separately, do the British, Danes and Dutch have any troops available for this kind of thing?

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-08-27 22:16|| 2008-08-27 22:16|| Front Page Top

#9 it's kavyl, a type of sturdy brushy grass that by this time is quite dry.

*happy sigh* Ah, the things one learns at Rantburg. Thank you for that, Spike Uniter!

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-08-27 22:19|| 2008-08-27 22:19|| Front Page Top

#10 OS, if you mean NATO as a kind of deterrent, it may work some, but probably not much. Pooty did a trial baloon via Georgia, and now he is convinced NATO is a paper kitten, not even a tiger.

Ukraine needs to get her shit together, stop squabbles between different parties and build up it's military. If there is some chance that NATO may actually do something, nice, but self-reliance is a must.

Read an article from Anatoliy Gritsenko, former minister of defense of Ukraine to get some insight what is the current situation (long but worth the time):
http://otherside.com.ua/news/detail.php?id=50066

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 22:25|| 2008-08-27 22:25|| Front Page Top

#11 Maybe when f---ng Yushenko puts out a fire at his ammo depot, he can help out with restoring Georgia's borders. Schmack.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 22:35|| 2008-08-27 22:35|| Front Page Top

#12 Ukraine needs to be reminded that Crimea is actually Russian. Dissolution of the USSR should have automatically voided the 1954 transfer of the territory to then Ukranian SSR. And that's the legal position that the Russians should take.
And forget about taking the Black Sea fleet out of Sevastopol . . . that stays right where it's at.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 22:41|| 2008-08-27 22:41|| Front Page Top

#13 General_Comment, everyone is in awe of your deep, insightful analysis, am sure of it.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 22:43|| 2008-08-27 22:43|| Front Page Top

#14 I like it, I am sorry if you don't.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 22:44|| 2008-08-27 22:44|| Front Page Top

#15 GC, actually, it should be Tatars' if you wanna split hairs. Not Russian. They were forcibly removed from there and displaced into several bantustans inside Russia.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 22:45|| 2008-08-27 22:45|| Front Page Top

#16 Dissolution of the USSR should have automatically voided the 1954 transfer of the territory to then Ukranian SSR.

But it wasn't then, and now it is too late. Then was too late, too, because when national boundaries are readdressed, then forcible population transfers ought to be readdressed and made right, those who ordered unjustified purges and other violations of human rights found and punished, KGB files opened and published for all the world to see...

It's just like dealing with small children after all, General Comment. Never, ever try to drill down to solve the original problem -- it makes too many new problems.

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-08-27 22:55|| 2008-08-27 22:55|| Front Page Top

#17 Some people bs a lot about "international law." Politicians love to use the phrase left and right, especially when they say that somebody is violating an agreement under international law.

Ever seen one of those international law agreements?

Just supposing for a second that a U.S. court would have a jurisdiction to consider one in the case of actual controversy. Most, if not all of such agreements would be considered so vague and indefinite as to be stricken in their entirety.

Now stepping back to enforcement or lack of it. There is no one to actually enforce an agreement under an international law. So, there is no such thing is international law. There is such thing as a U.S. law. Or a Russian law. Not an international law.

The Russia-Georgia cease-fire agreement was probably just one of those prepared by incompetent Sarkozy and his french compatriots.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 22:56|| 2008-08-27 22:56|| Front Page Top

#18 #15. Tatars: that's an interesting question. Yes, they could stay in Crimea, but they never were the dominating and numerous population there.
Russians were in Crimea since the dawn of civilization, since the Byzantine empire, and since the Greek colonies in Hersones. Whatever evoleved from there was mostly what is now Russia.

Stalin (to whom our friend Saakashvili worships to) did deport tatars from Crimea, allegedly because they collaborated with Nazi Germans. Some very small minority (relative to the whole population) of Ukranians did collaborate too.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 23:03|| 2008-08-27 23:03|| Front Page Top

#19 Trailing_wife: you assume that there is some statute of limitation applicable to those transfer agreements. Why should it be so? And why is it too late now? Maybe it is not too late. Maybe Yushenko thinks it is too late, but maybe some people disagree. Let's revisit the issue of the 1954 transfer, conduct a referendum, if needed, and then see whom Crimea wants to be with. They have been screaming for years they want to reunite with Russia.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 23:09|| 2008-08-27 23:09|| Front Page Top

#20 GC, you need to ask your school for money back, seems that they skipped some history.

1. Ever heard of Golden Horde?

2. There were NO Russians before 9th century CE, and at that time, the Rus Rulers (Volga river, not Crimea) were actually Vikings. The Kievan Rus folks were not Russians either, raher a Slavic core that split into Ukrainian and Russian elements at the time when Muscovian duchy was established, if my memory serves correct, mid-13th century. You can speak of Russians then, but really not before. The Russians were nowhere near Crimea until either Peter the Great or Catherine, I think the later.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 23:20|| 2008-08-27 23:20|| Front Page Top

#21 So what? Americans were not near America until 1500 something, indians used to live here.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 23:24|| 2008-08-27 23:24|| Front Page Top

#22 Also, i did not mean to imply that the russian civilization evolved from Crimea, only the fact that slavic ancestors always appear to hang around there. Tatars are mongols, not slavic. They were in Crimea too, but so what. Now there are 2 mil. people living there, pretty much all russians. Even tatars do not speak Ukranian, they speak tatar and russian.. BTW, russian is spoken evrywhere in Crimea, not Ukranian.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 23:30|| 2008-08-27 23:30|| Front Page Top

#23 GC, it was not me claiming that Russians lived in Crimea since dawn of time, was I?

If there was no justified suspicion that Kremlin wants to recreate the USSR empire (Pooty says so), then I am sure Ukraine would be quite accommodating to hosting Black Sea Fleet as the rent payments would stimulate local economy.

But with the belligerent tone coming out of Kremlin... it's a different story.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 23:37|| 2008-08-27 23:37|| Front Page Top

#24 GC, no, Slavic ancestor of Russians were not hanging around Crimea. South Slavs, yes (Serb, Croat, Bulgarian ancestors), around Crimea, but never inside. There were always some other folks in the way.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 23:41|| 2008-08-27 23:41|| Front Page Top

#25 I fail to see how is that suspicion that "Kremlin" want to recreate USSR justified? Justified by what? This is a paranoia of enormous proportions. The USSR has split. There is no coming back. (Except Crimea). But the dinky republics (Ukraine is not so dinky) have a complex of being somehow dominated. Also, whatever comes back comes to a different country having no communist ideology and thus no fundamental difference with the West.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 23:42|| 2008-08-27 23:42|| Front Page Top

#26 What Putin said was that "dissolution of the USSR was a geopolitical catastrophe." And he is absolutely right, look around. He meant the ensuing instability in the whole Eastern/Southern Europe and Near Asia; catastrophe for Russia the most.

Posted by General_Comment 2008-08-27 23:45|| 2008-08-27 23:45|| Front Page Top

#27 GC, I don't have time for link search, but Pooty did not just stay with the catastrophe message. Another time, when I find the relevant utterances of Batyushka Gossudar Putin.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 23:50|| 2008-08-27 23:50|| Front Page Top

#28 GC, the fundamental difference is not that pronounced yet, but we're heading there.

Democracy vs. Authoritarian Totalitarianism.
If you don't see it, bog s teboy.
It is not just me, there is enough Russian voices (so far escaping the "righteous" Pooty's wrath) expressing the same concern.

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-27 23:56|| 2008-08-27 23:56|| Front Page Top

23:58 JosephMendiola
23:56 Spike Uniter
23:51 JosephMendiola
23:50 Spike Uniter
23:45 General_Comment
23:45 Slats Glans2659
23:42 General_Comment
23:41 Spike Uniter
23:37 Spike Uniter
23:30 General_Comment
23:28 Slats Glans2659
23:24 General_Comment
23:20 Spike Uniter
23:20 Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields
23:17 Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields
23:13 General_Comment
23:13 Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields
23:09 General_Comment
23:03 General_Comment
23:03 AzCat
22:59 AzCat
22:56 General_Comment
22:55 trailing wife
22:45 Spike Uniter