Article

2008-07-24 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

IDF rabbi: We should exempt religious troops from events where women sing

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Posted by Fred 2008-07-24 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11133 views ] Top

#1 Don't a lot of these hyper-religious types also use their religion to get out of both work and fighting?

Also, stone cars of other Jews as they have some sort of problem with cars?

Posted by 3dc 2008-07-24 01:09|| 2008-07-24 01:09|| Front Page Top

#2 Yes they do, 3dc. Although I believe the stoning is of those cars driving through their neighborhood on the Sabbath, but I could be wrong. They are idiots, and that Israel indulges such behaviour is idiotic as well.

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-07-24 07:17|| 2008-07-24 07:17|| Front Page Top

#3 Wrong TW. You confuse ultra-orthodox (who are anti-Zionist: "Jews should wait for Messiah, not do things for themselves") with zionist-orthodox who are overrepresented in the combat units of the military.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-07-24 07:43|| 2008-07-24 07:43|| Front Page Top

#4 Oh come on! You guys aren't repressive muzzies. Grow some thicker skin and enjoy the show. You ain't going to hell. What's next? Fucking burkahs?

Asshats, all of them.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2008-07-24 07:55|| 2008-07-24 07:55|| Front Page Top

#5 A solution would be to exempt religious types from women. This would solve the problem of religious partys influencing Israel's political life.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-07-24 08:30|| 2008-07-24 08:30|| Front Page Top

#6 That's right Darth. The soldier in question didn't demand that the female singer be removed. He didn't demand that she'll be dressed "decently", just requested to be excused. Can you grasp the difference?

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-07-24 08:40|| 2008-07-24 08:40|| Front Page Top

#7 Can you grasp the difference?

Can you grasp the difference between a liberal, integrated democratic society and the ridged and segregated religion?

Or are you too busy banging your head on the floor?

Western nations and democratic and free societies bring all people together. All men (see humans) are created equal. The fact that during ceremonies that celebrate this integration, people still can't get over their primitive beliefs. They want to teach that watching women sing is bad, fine. But during a celebration of a unit comprised of ALL of Israel, it is intolerable and should be scorned.

Can you grasp that difference, g(r)omgoru? Can you?

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2008-07-24 09:38|| 2008-07-24 09:38|| Front Page Top

#8 Hand out blinkers and ear plugs.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2008-07-24 09:47|| 2008-07-24 09:47|| Front Page Top

#9 One EXCEPTION please.

Posted by Besoeker 2008-07-24 10:18|| 2008-07-24 10:18|| Front Page Top

#10 The babylonia talmud contains a statement (Berakhot 24a) that a woman's voice is indecent.

The context of this remark is within a discussion about reciting the proclamation of faith (a.k.a. the Shema).

The haredi world has run with this and in some places women do not even join in the communal grace after meals out loud (but I think they do say 'amen' after the benedictions within it - because that's not singing).

The modern orthodox world generally considers the provision to be a "well in the society that prevailed in the talmudic era, it was reasonable to supress the singing of women for the pleasure of men; however, that's not so now".

Posted by mhw">mhw 2008-07-24 10:48|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2008-07-24 10:48|| Front Page Top

#11 Fanatics, they can all go straight to hell, no matter the religion. There is a big difference between excusing yourself and trying to prevent others from doing what they want.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-07-24 11:09|| 2008-07-24 11:09|| Front Page Top

#12 g(r)omgoru/mhw ... What's their take on Miriam?

Posted by ExtremeModerate 2008-07-24 13:51|| 2008-07-24 13:51|| Front Page Top

#13 So, the can't listen to a woman singing, but, could they listen to say boy george?

Posted by anonymous5089 2008-07-24 15:04|| 2008-07-24 15:04|| Front Page Top

#14 Can you grasp the difference between a liberal, integrated democratic society and the ridged and segregated religion?

A liberal (in the old sence) society respects personal choice as long as it doesn't harm others. The soldier in question should no more be forced to listen to a female singer than I should be forced to attend Sabath prayer. Or you should be forced [fill in].

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-07-24 15:27|| 2008-07-24 15:27|| Front Page Top

#15 Extreme Moderate

Most interpreters assume that Miriam and the women sang without men; that Miriam would sing a verse and the other women would sing a verse and that this was going on during the same time that Moses was leading the menfolk in his song.

Interestingly, because the Talmud statement is in the singular, even the Haredi are more lenient when it comes to a group of women singing (the voices of many women at once might not be indecent).

Personally, I have for many years admired Miriam for this because her version of the song is short and sweet. That's what I told visitors to our seder earlier this year when I display our "Miriam's cup" next to the Elijah's cup.

Posted by mhw">mhw 2008-07-24 16:04|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2008-07-24 16:04|| Front Page Top

#16 @#15 mhw ... Thanks for that.

Posted by ExtremeModerate 2008-07-24 17:07|| 2008-07-24 17:07|| Front Page Top

#17 you're welcome

and in case you were wondering, the Song of Deborah in the b of Judges would have been heard by men and would have been the voice of a single woman

however, apparently, prophets and judges get to do things on a one-time basis that would be illegal otherwise; e.g., Elijah making offerings at Mt Tabor (when its supposed to be at the Temple), Pinhas killing Zimri extra-judicially, etc.

Posted by mhw">mhw 2008-07-24 17:18|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2008-07-24 17:18|| Front Page Top

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