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2008-06-03 Home Front Economy

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Posted by ed 2008-06-03 08:46|| || Front Page|| [11137 views ] Top

#1 I hope the grid is ready.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-06-03 09:22|| 2008-06-03 09:22|| Front Page Top

#2 Good news!

Posted by 3dc 2008-06-03 09:50|| 2008-06-03 09:50|| Front Page Top

#3 GM (I think) had a wonderful design for a hydrogen car. They built a skate-board type thing with an electric engine at each wheel and the drive-train and everything in the skate-board. The idea was that other car companies could build chassis and control mechinisms (Fly by wire, any control will do) and GM would be in the business of creating and selling the skateboards as a OEM.

If I was GM I'd be shifting that design from hydrogen to powerful batteries and see what it looked and performed like. A year or so ago Toshiba had some kind of battery that could recharge very quickly, like 80% capacity in a couple of minutes. That tech probably needs some improving and testing but GM should be ready to use it when the time comes.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-06-03 11:00|| 2008-06-03 11:00|| Front Page Top

#4 Thats a lot of truck production going away.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-06-03 11:48|| 2008-06-03 11:48|| Front Page Top

#5 http://gm-volt.com/

Posted by 3dc 2008-06-03 12:49|| 2008-06-03 12:49|| Front Page Top

#6 OS, we won't need a lot of trucks when the economy collapses due to the carbon cap and tax scheme working its way through congress right now.
And to the environmentalists, that will be a good thing. You will only need to deliver arugula and other necessities to the elites. The masses can find their food locally. Or starve, it doesn't really matter.

Posted by Rambler in California">Rambler in California 2008-06-03 13:11|| 2008-06-03 13:11|| Front Page Top

#7 Just what we need ... coal fired cars.

Posted by crosspatch 2008-06-03 13:36|| 2008-06-03 13:36|| Front Page Top

#8 Saab was dead as soon as GM bought it, so no loss.
this correction will be good in the short term, but trucks don't last forever, so look for new truck plants in 5 -10 years.
maybe this will kill the status symbol SUV and bring back the station wagon (dirty words to an auto exec). i want my Country Squire back

Posted by USN, Ret. 2008-06-03 14:08|| 2008-06-03 14:08|| Front Page Top

#9 I'm lookin' for a Stanley Steamer, personally...

Posted by mojo">mojo 2008-06-03 15:05|| 2008-06-03 15:05|| Front Page Top

#10 Look at some of the current crossovers. The Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix get pretty good gas milage and can haul a bit of cargo too.

Posted by CrazyFool 2008-06-03 15:15|| 2008-06-03 15:15|| Front Page Top

#11 ...Two cheers for GM. Check over at www.thetruthaboutcars, an absolutely wonderful look at the auto industry. Their take - usually backed up by GM's own words - is that the Volt is just shy of vaporware.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2008-06-03 18:21|| 2008-06-03 18:21|| Front Page Top

#12 For most domestic applications one does not need a full-time truck. An efficient solution would be a small vehicle with enough frame and drive train strength to pull a modest trailer (in 4th gear) and a true overdrive 5th gear for excellent mileage the other 99% of the time. I'd buy it.

Posted by Glenmore 2008-06-03 19:06|| 2008-06-03 19:06|| Front Page Top

#13

Think Electric Car
Creative Destruction from Norway
Why doesn't GM partner? Maybe the market cap of Think is bigger than GM's?

Posted by KBK 2008-06-03 22:04|| 2008-06-03 22:04|| Front Page Top

#14

Heh, because we partnered with GE!

Posted by KBK 2008-06-03 22:09|| 2008-06-03 22:09|| Front Page Top

#15 A mains plug-in electric vehile uses about 3 times as much energy as a comparable petrol/diesel vehicle. Yes thats 3 times as much.

That energy has to come from somewhere. Absent lots of new nuclear power stations, it means many more coal fired power stations.

Coal powered electricity generation is far and away the most CO2 producing means of delivering energy.

So as a practical matter mains powered vehicles choose reducing oil consumption by increasing CO2 emissions.

Posted by phil_b 2008-06-03 22:18|| 2008-06-03 22:18|| Front Page Top

#16 Ford used to own Think and plowed about $100 million into it. They sold it 5 years ago.

Posted by ed 2008-06-03 22:37|| 2008-06-03 22:37|| Front Page Top

#17 We won't need SUVS or STATION WAGONS once humanity starts living in our future OWG TERMITE MOUND- or ROCKET/MISSLE-SHAPED ENCLOSED CITIES, or ANTI-SOLAR DOMED CITIES - SKATEBOARD is about right, + prob CAROUSEL [Logan's Run]!?

"LOGAN's RUN" > NO NEED TO TRUST ANYONE OVER AGE 30 BECUZ EVERYONE OVER AGE 30 WILL BE LAWFULLY EXECUTED TO PROTECT THE ENVIRON AND RESOURCES. The Good News is we'll all get to die YOUNG, DUM, AND WEARING SOLYENT ARMANI???

Posted by JosephMendiola 2008-06-03 22:38|| 2008-06-03 22:38|| Front Page Top

#18 phil_b, are you sure?

Burning coal or burning oil, it's the same thermodynamics, isn't it? To be sure, with an EV you have to figure line losses, but that's less than 10%. And there's the efficiency of a large power plant vs. a small internal combustion engine.

The numbers I've seen say electricity is much cheaper per mile than gasoline. Cost of the vehicle is a different subject. But how many small block Chevy V-8s have they made in the last 50 years going down the learning curve?

Posted by KBK 2008-06-03 23:10|| 2008-06-03 23:10|| Front Page Top

#19 The least thermally efficient generators of electricity is nuclear or coal at 30%. The average US electric transmission loss is 7%. An electric car w/ LiIon batteries is 75% efficient from wall socket, charge, discharge, motor and wheels. That's 22% total efficiency, higher if the power plant is more efficient (e.g. 60% efficiency of a NatGas co-generation plant).

The well to wheels efficiency (crude oil to power at wheels) of gasoline cars averages 24%. Diesel 36%.

Efficiency wise, electric and gas cars are very comparable. The catch is much of the US goal sells for less than $20/ton and has the equivalent energy of 4 barrels of oil. In addition, the money, jobs and tech stays in the US

Another way to look at it is that the Volt will get 4 miles/kWH or 3 cents/mile when electricity is 12 cents/kWH. A similar passenger car will get 25 miles/gallon at $3.75/gal or 15cents/mile.

Posted by ed 2008-06-03 23:13|| 2008-06-03 23:13|| Front Page Top

#20 US goal = US coal

Posted by ed 2008-06-03 23:16|| 2008-06-03 23:16|| Front Page Top

#21 PS. I think the wells to wheels efficiency graph is from Europe. The US has greater emissions and safety regulations that eat about 30% gas milage. If I remember correctly, the average US gas powered well to wheels efficiency is 17%.

Posted by ed 2008-06-03 23:24|| 2008-06-03 23:24|| Front Page Top

23:48 Harcourt Jush7795
23:43 USN,Ret. (from home)
23:42 steven
23:31 crosspatch
23:29 crosspatch
23:25 Spike Uniter
23:24 ed
23:24 Spike Hupereger1977
23:16 ed
23:13 ed
23:10 KBK
22:38 JosephMendiola
22:37 Frank G
22:37 ed
22:26 JosephMendiola
22:25 Cromert
22:21 rjschwarz
22:19 rjschwarz
22:18 phil_b
22:17 DarthVader
22:17 JosephMendiola
22:09 KBK
22:09 Rambler in California
22:07 CrazyFool