Article

2008-03-17

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Posted by Steve White 2008-03-17 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11 views ] Top

#1 Unfortunately, Rantburg is rather easily trolled. All you have to do is look at any article with 30+ comments, and you're sure to find a dissenting commenter there. :(

Posted by gromky 2008-03-17 02:37|| 2008-03-17 02:37|| Front Page Top

#2 Loud and clear.

Posted by McZoid 2008-03-17 03:33|| 2008-03-17 03:33|| Front Page Top

#3 Dissent should not be equated to trolling. I'm not sure how to define trolling, but I know it when I read it. I suppose you could troll iwthout dissenting just by being a disagreeable commenter.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-03-17 07:03|| 2008-03-17 07:03|| Front Page Top

#4 Yup on both counts, NS.

Dissent is helpful provided it's done in good faith.

The Canadian 'human rights' guy whose sockpuppets plastered racist comments on conservative websites is a good example of trolling by agreement.

Posted by lotp 2008-03-17 07:27|| 2008-03-17 07:27|| Front Page Top

#5 Troll -

A commenter who's only goal at his entry is to cause anger and disharmony in the forum. Not to be confused with actual dissenting arguments, that are backed up with facts that lead to a true discussion about events. A troll's only goal is to cause spittle flying rage with their caustic postings.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2008-03-17 07:52|| 2008-03-17 07:52|| Front Page Top

#6 TRUE CONFESSIONS: I began my Rantburg life as an angry, bespittled mouth foaming Troll-lite. Thankfully, after 6 months of on-line therapy and rahab (thank you lotp, grom, and TW) I can honestly say that I am now a simple, (some say quite simple....) fully reformed dissident.

Posted by Besoeker 2008-03-17 08:05|| 2008-03-17 08:05|| Front Page Top

#7 "Trolling is the highest form of dissent." Didn't Thomas Jefferson say that?

Posted by SteveS 2008-03-17 08:26|| 2008-03-17 08:26|| Front Page Top

#8 Treasury and bank workers are taught how to detect counterfeit money by being intensely tutored in how the genuine article appears.

In my opinion, our very own Liberalhawk is a sterling example of an honorable liberal offering reasonable and civil opposition without being offensive. He attacks the problem, attacks the arguments, but never, to my recollection, has ever attacked the person. His approaches to problems are certainly different from the majority here, but one senses that he shares the goal of protecting the American people and preserving the American way of life.

I heard someone liken Americanism to being like a fireman's safety net that was held by all Americans: each pulled the net in his own direction, but the end result was a taut and usable instrument of rescue. I see LH and his honorable fellows as being on the other side of the net.

My objection is to those who cut the net up in the name of "patriotism" and "liberty" and exercising their "freedoms".

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2008-03-17 08:35|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2008-03-17 08:35|| Front Page Top

#9 Well said, Ptah. I usually disagree strongly with LH but in my experience he has kept his arguments within the bounds of relative propriety. Of course, in a place called "Rantburg," one might expect a bit of latitude in that area...

Posted by Pancho Elmeck8414 2008-03-17 08:59|| 2008-03-17 08:59|| Front Page Top

#10 Dittos to Ptah. Props to Liberalhawk.

Posted by Excalibur 2008-03-17 09:15|| 2008-03-17 09:15|| Front Page Top

#11 Ima call Peshawar! Peshawar!

Posted by Zebulon Angavick7428 2008-03-17 09:35|| 2008-03-17 09:35|| Front Page Top

#12 Thank you all, but in fairness, as Im sure youre aware, Im really not all THAT liberal. Im pretty much of an old school hawk - yeah I like democracy even for muslims, whom I dont attack - but in that Im no different from mainstream gardern variety Weekly Standard neocons. I dont think the EU is a bad thing for the US - again, something I have in common with a moderate leaning neocon like Robert Kagan. I lean more to the the hawkish Labour/Kadima "we've got to negotiate with SOMEBODY" approach to Israeli politics rather than the Netanyahu approach - again, Paul Wolfowitz was on the same wavelength. On domestic politics Im pretty much a Clintonite New Democrat, which again, is NOT that liberal (in the post-1932 USA sense, dont start in again on "classical" liberalism)(and Im talking Bill - Hillary, much though I prefer her over Obama, is a tad left of Bill - thats not all an act, its authentic I think). One of the things Ive tried to educate people here about is how much bitterness there is within the Dem party about that (thats a bit suppressed now - being out of power will do that - although its not far under the surface).

There are definitely positions to MY left that are NOT treasonous or vile (even if they are misguided IMO). It would be nice if we could occasionally discuss them here. Although I wouldnt want to see debates even with them become central. Because to me, Rantburg is NOT really a place for political debate of any kind. Its a place for strategic/tactical discussion of the WOT, analysis of the chess game, etc. I find many of the right wing posts here distracting from that (and hence trollish) as much as the leftwing ones. I havent been afraid to say so, even against posters as strong in their opinions as .com, or others. That may have given me an unearned reputation as "left".

I remember Aris as expressing opinions that while too my left, were in that area that I would call "not vile", and ones that we should have been able to deal with. Unfortunately he was somewhat thin skinned, and when folks gave him minor jabs, he lost it. Thats not really trolling which is posting for the purpose of disruption. MAybe he did that sometimes, I dont recall most of his posts as being like that.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-03-17 10:01|| 2008-03-17 10:01|| Front Page Top

#13 LH, I agree with your second paragraph. I also find some of the 'kill them all' comments trollish.

I didn't find Aris that that trollish either. It was just his debating style was rather juvenile - endlessly restating his same point. I was surprised he got banned, but then I wasn't around at the time he got banned, so maybe he overstepped the mark.

Posted by phil_b 2008-03-17 10:46|| 2008-03-17 10:46|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris had a visceral anti-America streak that would have made it easy for him to communicate effectively with the Rev. Wright, but made him less than effective at the 'burg. His skin seemed to get thinner with time and the bickering threads were an annoyance that made his banishment a welcome move from my perspective.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-03-17 10:51|| 2008-03-17 10:51|| Front Page Top

#15 Aris did overstep and that's why he was banned.

Trolling gets you banned -- after you've been chewed on. Being overly difficult with one's commenting style might, in extreme cases, also get you banned, though we've fortunately done it only a couple times. We've come to the realization that a person can be destructive without being a troll, and if a person gets to that point we ask them to leave.

We're NOT going to ban people just because they dissent, even if they're vociferous about it. Dissent IS necessary in a democratic society.

Hope that clears it up. AoS.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2008-03-17 10:53|| 2008-03-17 10:53|| Front Page Top

#16 I don't remember Aris spewing any spittle. He just kept beating around the bush until I couldn't follow it any further. I think he was more incoherent than he was evil. But, in the end, I think his downfall was that he detracted from the discussion far more than he ever added. It was like somebody chewing gum in my ear or working a candy wrapper in a theater.

Posted by Abu Uluque (aka Ebbang Uluque6305) 2008-03-17 11:51|| 2008-03-17 11:51|| Front Page Top

#17 extra chocolate to Ptah and Lib-Hawk next time we get a confirmed kill.

i'm here for the WOT news that i can't get on the 'other' side of the net for all the idiots behind me running with scissors and screaming talking points in my ears...

q

Posted by Querent 2008-03-17 12:55|| 2008-03-17 12:55|| Front Page Top

#18 he was more incoherent than he was evil.

Dawg, now that, that was liquid O2 range.

Posted by Zebulon Angavick7428 2008-03-17 13:54|| 2008-03-17 13:54|| Front Page Top

#19 I'm with a lot of the above, mainly with Besoeker. I have learnt a lot here, and come here every day for the real news that gives me a near complete picture from people who know what they're on about. (Mainly WOT). So, slot the troll, just wasting bandwith and everyones time.

Posted by rhodesiafever 2008-03-17 16:52|| 2008-03-17 16:52|| Front Page Top

#20 So much good discussion here that I have little to add. Please inscribe my name in the membership roll of the Ptah & Liberalhawk Fan Club.

Posted by Mike 2008-03-17 17:05|| 2008-03-17 17:05|| Front Page Top

#21 I am against waterboarding, and after expressing that in a thread, and it was requested in a thread that I be banned.

Fortunately, Rantburg is bigger than one mindset.

Posted by Mizzou Mafia 2008-03-17 17:55|| 2008-03-17 17:55|| Front Page Top

#22 I'm also against waterboarding (most times, anyways) so I'm with you.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2008-03-17 18:12|| 2008-03-17 18:12|| Front Page Top

#23 I'm looking forward to the horrified news reports when waterboarding becomes a common fraternity hazing practice. Goodness knows it's safer than some of the other things they do when the grown-ups aren't watching. ;-)

Ptah and liberalhawk, beautifully said. Dear Besoeker, you were not the first to arrive foaming at the mouth -- some because they assumed we were white, racist, Christianist, ignorant warmongers... others who assumed we were ignorant, civilian, armchair generals who understand neither how critically important fighting this war to the knife is, nor what the troops really go through. Then there's the third group, who were so relieved to find an entire group of people who understand what they had figured out in isolation that they had to dump their accumulated frustrations before they could talk sensibly.

The best of the those have stayed to become valuable contributors. The others remain chew toys until they get banned.

Aris contributed a valuable viewpoint until his frustration that real-world America does not match his imagined, Platonic ideal anti-Greece, plus the responses he got from real live Americans who refused to be lectured by a callow youth whose knowledge was not nearly as broad and deep as he believed, resulted in the end in posts that were nothing but baiting and insults for the objects of his anger. phil_b, you missed the 100-comment threads Aris provoked, and the posters who left because of him. Unlike Zenster, whom I believe honestly didn't understand what people got mad about, these last few outings Aris knew what he was about, and did it deliberately.

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-03-17 18:47|| 2008-03-17 18:47|| Front Page Top

#24 I'm looking forward to the horrified news reports when waterboarding becomes a common fraternity hazing practice. Goodness knows it's safer than some of the other things they do when the grown-ups aren't watching. ;-)

I thought it _was_ a common fraternity hazing practice.

Anyway, I don't really believe we should waterboard terrorist suspects.

I had a better idea.

I believe we should make them fly coach.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-03-17 19:02|| 2008-03-17 19:02|| Front Page Top

#25 I believe we should make them fly coach.

You sir are deeply evil.

Posted by Free Radical">Free Radical 2008-03-17 19:49|| 2008-03-17 19:49|| Front Page Top

#26 [Mike Sylwester has been pooplisted.]

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2008-03-17 20:56|| 2008-03-17 20:56|| Front Page Top

#27 hey! it works!

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-03-17 20:59|| 2008-03-17 20:59|| Front Page Top

#28 I believe we should make them fly coach.

Evil, but not as evil as making them listen to seventies carpenter style love songs for hours on end.

I would beg for death.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2008-03-17 21:12|| 2008-03-17 21:12|| Front Page Top

#29 I'd file for relief under the Geneva Conventions.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-03-17 21:18|| 2008-03-17 21:18|| Front Page Top

#30 Waterboarding is for amateurs. Use an Epilady on the jihadi bastards.

Posted by Cromert 2008-03-17 21:34|| 2008-03-17 21:34|| Front Page Top

#31 Cromert - men are such wimps.... ;-p

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2008-03-17 22:32|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/] 2008-03-17 22:32|| Front Page Top

#32 To hell with the Epilady - give 'em a bikini wax! :-D

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2008-03-17 22:33|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/] 2008-03-17 22:33|| Front Page Top

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