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2007-11-16 Europe

"We are not little people, Not on this subject!"

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Posted by Mike 2007-11-16 00:00|| || Front Page|| [3 views ] Top

#1 A parados. A number (not all) of the most notorious Nazis were raised as Catholics. But Satuffenberg was a Catolic, as were the White Rose people and as was this guy.

I have seen the map of Naai vote in the last ffere elections before Hitler's raise to power and it coincides exactly with a negative of proprtions of Catholics in the district. Ir is exactly as if through the netire land there had been the same proportion of Cathoplics and Protestsn voting for the Nazis and that it was the proportion of Catholics (or Protestants) who determined how strongh the Nazis were in district with Catholics being much less prone to vote for the Nazis.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-11-16 01:54|| 2007-11-16 01:54|| Front Page Top

#2 Instead of saying that Nazi vote was strong between Protestants it would have been more exact to say that it was strong beatween Non-Catholics. I don't have a district by district map about the proportion of Protestants and people without religion. It could be that it was the later who tilted the balance.

Note: We have a precise a map of Religion sin Germany because people pay a tax whose proceedings goes to the confession of their choice. If you declare to have no religion you still pay but the state keeps the money.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-11-16 02:28|| 2007-11-16 02:28|| Front Page Top

#3 Are you certain about that last, JFM? When we moved to Germany, Mr. Wife's company's Human Resources people registered us with the government as Jewish, perhaps assuming that only a Jewish man would marry a Jewish woman, which they knew me to be because of my pre-move concerns. In addition to the registration -- to which we objected on principle -- we would have had to pay a religion tax on top of the regular income tax. After arguing for ages with them, the HR people finally deregistered us, and the tax surcharge disappeared. I recall German friends commenting that it was worth paying the extra tax, despite their status as non-believers, so that their children could have picturesque church weddings and be buried in church cemeteries. But perhaps I misunderstood, or things have changed.

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2007-11-16 05:32|| 2007-11-16 05:32|| Front Page Top

#4 I don't live in Germany and my sources are quite old. But I remember a novel "Death is my profession" where the main character (who ends commanding a death camp) at one point abjures religion, registers as without religion and he explicitly comments that his taxes will go to the state. So if the novel an my memoty are accurate then in the thirties you still paid the tax if you registered as without religion.

About accuracy of the novel. Its author was French, but he based in Rudolph Hoess (Auschwitz's commander) memories. Also, this kind of details (the part about the religion tax) is not the kind of details an author (specially a non-German one) would invent unless he found it in Hoess memories.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-11-16 06:11|| 2007-11-16 06:11|| Front Page Top

#5 "I recall German friends commenting that it was worth paying the extra tax, despite their status as non-believers, so that their children could have picturesque church weddings and be buried in church cemeteries." It's hard to me to get my head around this.
After I read this article I looked for a way to buy a German-language copy of this book in the USA, couldn't find one. Fortunately a nearby large-city library here in OH has a copy, which I'll borrow on inter-library loan. What I can remember of my college German language courses, and the internet, will help my plow through as much of "Ich Nicht" as I can.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2007-11-16 07:12|| 2007-11-16 07:12|| Front Page Top

#6 There are several illusions about Nazi Germany that need to be dispelled.

A major one has already been attacked, though it is far from certain that it has won the argument, that it was not the propaganda machine of Joseph Goebbels, the "Minister for Public Enlightenment & Propaganda", hypnotized the German people into hating Jews.

It did not. To a great extent, it was preaching to the choir, in that there had been a longstanding hatred and contempt for Jews in much of Europe for a thousand years preceding. And had the roles been reversed, Britain might have been as horrifically murderous to the Jews as was Germany. Certainly the French could have been. The liberalism in any of those countries towards the Jews did not extend deeply beyond the educated upper classes.

The second illusion, that has yet to be confronted, is the difference between Nazism and German nationalism.

For many Germans, the Nazis were seen as just another political movement, not particularly different from the Bonapartists of a century before who had propelled France to do exactly what the Germans were doing.

To place it all in context, Europe had been at war, more or less, for 1500 years. There was a nagging pessimism that there could ever be a lasting peace. In fact, after World War II, this finally resulted in the trans-European rejection of nationalism, national uniqueness and cultural differences.

They felt that only if Europe became a generic, pastel creation, would they ever avoid the differences they felt made war inevitable. This is why today, the EU strives to make Europe as homogeneous and bland as possible, and actively try to destroy both national and cultural identity.

Before World War I, the German states in Europe had been seen as a collection of ignorant peasants by the other European powers. When Germany was united by Bismarck, other nations suddenly realized that they now faced the dominant power on the continent. World War I was seen by the other European powers as much as "putting Germany in its place", as by the Germans "asserting themselves" to be the dominant European power.

After WWI, the average German had a great deal of smoldering resentment, not just in being put down from what they felt was their European throne, but also in not having accomplished a complete "trans-Germanification" in the first place.

This was why both the typical German was thrilled with conquering and integrating the German parts of other countries, but also one of the big reasons that Chamberlain was so hesitant to attack Germany for what could be considered "uniting itself".

So it *often* boiled down to a general German indifference to the Nazis. If they tried, they could just ignore them and accept the parallel *goals* of German nationalism. That is, they might have been willing to do what they did under *any* leader who did the same as Hitler and the Nazis.

They did so under Kaiser Wilhelm I, so had they still had a Kaiser, is it so unimaginable that they would not have done it again? A repetition of World War II, but led by a king, not Hitler and the Nazis.

That is what the Japanese did.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-11-16 11:13|| 2007-11-16 11:13|| Front Page Top

#7 After I read this article I looked for a way to buy a German-language copy of this book in the USA, couldn't find one.

Try Schoenhofs. You may have to call them.

Posted by KBK 2007-11-16 11:14|| 2007-11-16 11:14|| Front Page Top

#8 anonymoose, not arguing your points but didn't the Franco-Prussian war sort of bring the Germans to world recognition prior to WW1. I mean beating the French (the continents Great power) had to get some peoples attention.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-11-16 13:40|| 2007-11-16 13:40|| Front Page Top

#9 anonymoose, arguing about your points you are mixing apples and oranges. Religious antisemitism (eg Catholic Spain in XVIth centuty) and racial antisemitism (Nazism) are two different things (converts and new borns are safe).

Jews living in Pope's possesions were under Pope's personal protection while at the same time many bishops fanned the flames of antisemitism, often resulting in pogroms.

Spain expelled the Jews in 1492 or more exactly expelled those who didn't convert, and burned those who had falsely converted (BTW, the Catholic Church didn't burn people for being Jews or heretic but for the crime of falling a second time in "error" ie returning to their former religion after having embraced the Catholic faith)

But decades later people of Jwish ascendency were still getting to positions of prominence (eg Diego Lainez, cofounder and later General of the Jesuits). A century later, howere there are decrees of "cleanliness of blood" limiting employment for people who weren't "old Christians". In no small part because far too many converted Muslims had been found not only practcing Islam in secret but also starting murderous revolts and helping the Turks.

In France, there were many pogroms during the Medieval era but after that during centuries they had no special problems and then there is the affaire Dreyfus. But there were zero pogroms, and AFAIK no agressions against Jews. Notice, that the guy who "escape goated" Dreyfius was an Alsatian.

In Slavic countries, pogroms were frequent and a number of most atrocious massacres in WWII were made not by Germans but by local populations.

In Poland some of the most prominent savers of Jews during WWII were deeply antisemitic: they didn't like Jews, they wanted them out of Poland but they risked their lives for them.

Also Nazism was something special: while that when they had to count with local authorities they targetted the people of Jewish religion (ie for an idea you could renounce) when they had free hands they targetted the "race", ie for the crime of being born.

Oh, and while we are at it, I habe hard that in America the KKK often targetted Jews...

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-11-16 17:27|| 2007-11-16 17:27|| Front Page Top

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