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2007-10-29 International-UN-NGOs

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Posted by Steve White 2007-10-29 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11132 views ] Top

#1 Basically, it seems to boil down to the idea that they don't trust anybody except family and the concept that being indispensible is the only safe haven in a dog-eat-dog environment.

This is the world view that has to be broken. To break this world view means to separate the upcoming generations' outlook from the older generations', and to keep them separated until the idea takes hold and it can't be rolled back. Hopefully this can be done gracefully with a minimum of inter-generational tension. Probably the best way to do this would be to install a serious educational system that included making them aware of the downfalls of pride and detrimental competition, the benefits of competition and sportsmanship, the value of human life, the english language, and make a wide-open internet available to all and keep it that way. Getting the military folks to see how well it works couldn't hurt, either.

Posted by gorb 2007-10-29 04:09|| 2007-10-29 04:09|| Front Page Top

#2 The Arab countries are 3rd world and 4th rate. I have been to the Arabian Peninsula, and the rule is: it something CAN be done in one minute, the Arab will waste an hour arguing about ways to do it. Success and progress are anathema to an Arab.

Western Civilization needs to oppose Islamic politics as a system. Our recent indulgence of political-islam is termite feeding at best. As for Mideast oil: true title to the oil patch is Anglo-American. We must reclaim original sovereignty from the savages.

Posted by McZoid 2007-10-29 04:30|| 2007-10-29 04:30|| Front Page Top

#3 They don't know how to cooperate. Their entire religion is based on non-cooperation and literally killing or subjugating anyone who doesn't agree with with the Turban of the Day. If you want them to accept democracy and join the modern world - convert them to another religion.

Posted by Unutle McGurque8861 2007-10-29 04:42|| 2007-10-29 04:42|| Front Page Top

#4 Idol worship can be dangerous.

Posted by newc">newc 2007-10-29 06:10|| 2007-10-29 06:10|| Front Page Top

#5 > They don't know how to cooperate.

Actually they don't know how to reciprocate.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2007-10-29 08:07|| 2007-10-29 08:07|| Front Page Top

#6 Just replace all the islamophiles at state with child psychologists (emphasis on developmental and abnormal child psych) Problem solved...

Posted by M. Murcek">M. Murcek 2007-10-29 09:12|| 2007-10-29 09:12|| Front Page Top

#7 Why? Well they are always supersitious and blowing off too much steam early then huffing for breath later. Nothing ever gets done because they have to face east 5 times a day and often are lazy or have their nose in the Koran instead of looking at reality around them.

Posted by Mad Eye Thrineger4793 2007-10-29 09:46|| 2007-10-29 09:46|| Front Page Top

#8 The least charitable people in the world. And considering a quick mental list of peoples of the world, that is saying something.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-10-29 09:47|| 2007-10-29 09:47|| Front Page Top

#9 I have said it before, and I'll say it again. The tribal culture of the Arabs MUST be broken if they are going to compete in the modern world. The military is just a view of how their whole society operates. It just barely works and can't survive contact with any better system. Which is why they hate Israel and the west so much. We prove, at every level that their system of doing things is inferior and will never work as well as ours.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-10-29 09:51|| 2007-10-29 09:51|| Front Page Top

#10 Why do some of you guys want to teach them to be better fighters? So they can kill each other better? They already do that pretty well. So they can kill us better? Their tribal non-cooperative outlook is largely due to the tenets of their tribal non-cooperative religion. Let them stew in.

Posted by Darrell 2007-10-29 10:44|| 2007-10-29 10:44|| Front Page Top

#11 I think they are doing just fine. Remember the koran protects the believer from all harm, so be sure to march on the infidels in nice straight rows.

Posted by ed 2007-10-29 11:58|| 2007-10-29 11:58|| Front Page Top

#12 I think the bottom line of the original argument is that Arabic culture which is not exposed to outside influences is xenophobic and insular. Not that any one individual is inherantly evil. We ought use our presence in Iraq and elsewhere in the region to understand this reality and to use it to our advantage better, and at the same time bring the folks that we can into the 21st century. All people who have spent their lives in an enviroment which breeds suspicion of outsiders must be subtly convinced to be open to seeing something new, and to be assured it is not evil. We must use the inate human curiousity to something different to open folks minds something outside, different to what they've been used to... It is possible to have their attitudes molded, taking care not to be percieved as belittling their past. So, we have an opportunity to convince the people of the region to see our melieu as preferable future, and not that of the al-Qaedas. I think Gen. Petraeus has come to understand this and that may be why the Sunni are indeed turning on al-Qaeda.

Posted by BigEd 2007-10-29 12:26|| 2007-10-29 12:26|| Front Page Top

#13 they don't trust anybody except family and the concept that being indispensible is the only safe haven in a dog-eat-dog environment.

Which deftly summarizes the central tenets of high context culture. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this concept, it is essentially impossible to comprehend the yawning gulf between Islamic societies and the West without knowledge of this fundamental difference.

Some comparisons:

High context refers to societies or groups where people have close connections over a long period of time. Many aspects of cultural behavior are not made explicit because most members know what to do and what to think from years of interaction with each other. Your family is probably an example of a high context environment.

Low context refers to societies where people tend to have many connections but of shorter duration or for some specific reason. In these societies, cultural behavior and beliefs may need to be spelled out explicitly so that those coming into the cultural environment know how to behave.

High Context

Less verbally explicit communication, less written/formal information

More internalized understandings of what is communicated

Multiple cross-cutting ties and intersections with others

Long term relationships

Strong boundaries- who is accepted as belonging vs who is considered an "outsider"

Knowledge is situational, relational

Decisions and activities focus around personal face-to-face relationships, often around a central person who has authority

Low Context

Rule oriented, people play by external rules

More knowledge is codified, public, external, and accessible

Sequencing, separation--of time, of space, of activities, of relationships

More interpersonal connections of shorter duration

Knowledge is more often transferable

Task-centered. Decisions and activities focus around what needs to be done, division of responsibilities

[emphasis added]

Notice how, "Less verbally explicit communication, less written/formal information" is well-suited to an illiterate society. Couple this with, "Decisions and activities focus around ... a central person who has authority" and you get a concise recipe for totalitarianism. A more common manifestation of this is the Arab prediliction for "strong horse" type of leadership. All of this is writ large in Islamic cultures.

Cast in the perspective of military operations, high context traditions are absolute poison to efficiency and performance. Aristocratic members are automatically awarded command positions based upon social status instead of battlefield competence. Skilled members of the lower ranks are viewed with suspicion and regarded as a threat to authority. In all, a recipe for disaster.

Now examine the pivotal aspects of low context culture. "Rule oriented, people play by external rules", a vital component of military discipline. "More knowledge is codified, public, external, and accessible", which is especially critical for coordinated group activity, such as fielding an army. "Knowledge is more often transferable", thereby averting the tremendous problems inherent with individuals who seek to make themselves indespensible. Combine these traits with the West's more egalitarian traditions of promotion through the ranks based upon competency or skill and the huge difference becomes obvious.

Arab culture automatically dooms itself to defeat. Its heavily entrenched high context basis simply does not allow nearly as much for the emergence of talent without it first being qualified by lineage or social status. This heavily discourages enterprising personalities and quashes individualism. None of which bodes well for either military victory or even simple modernization.

What it does encourage is some of the most vicious, ruthless and rapacious behaviors. Fanaticism and zealotry are encouraged, which in turn provide an ample supply of cannon fodder for those entirely unconcerned with the sanctity of human life. Terrorism becomes an almost mandatory tool of choice for such hopelessly inadequate and easily humiliated personalities.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-10-29 12:52|| 2007-10-29 12:52|| Front Page Top

#14 All people who have spent their lives in an enviroment which breeds suspicion of outsiders must be subtly convinced to be open to seeing something new, and to be assured it is not evil. We must use the inate human curiousity to something different to open folks minds something outside, different to what they've been used to... It is possible to have their attitudes molded, taking care not to be percieved as belittling their past. So, we have an opportunity to convince the people of the region to see our melieu as preferable future, and not that of the al-Qaedas.

BigEd, while your observations are entirely correct, nowhere do we have the luxury of waiting the necessary decades for such profound paradigm shifts in Islamic cultures. The proliferation of nuclear technology alone prohibits this. This is further compounded by how Internet connectivity strongly facilitates the secretive communication and indoctrination that terrorism thrives upon. The high context issues that make personal humiliation so predictable and devastating for Muslims demonstrates the need for swift military intervention and almost brutal suppression of all further Islamic ascendancy. We simply cannot tolerate unmodified Islam to carry forward armed with advanced technology while retaining all of its unwholesome and crippling character faults. We may as well put nuclear weapons into the hands of an ill mannered and tantrum prone five year-old.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-10-29 13:11|| 2007-10-29 13:11|| Front Page Top

#15 Nearly a century ago, T. E. Lawrence's third chapter of the Seven Pillars of Wisdom
summarizes his observation of the Arab mind:

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/l/lawrence/te/seven/chapter3.html

There was no "islamophobia" then, the term hasn't been invented. In fact Lawrence of Arabia was overall sympathetic to them but even so the backward characteristics of theirs mentioned were not that wonderful and this primitiveness can hardly be denied.

Posted by Duh! 2007-10-29 13:56|| 2007-10-29 13:56|| Front Page Top

#16 I lived and fought inside the Iraqi Army last year and found as you develop the relationship the unit as a whole begins to assimalate our professional behavior. We had one trooper we nicknamed "Cowboy" who tried to mimic everything we did and as a result we stroked him every chance we got and found others looked to earn the same favor. It will take time to over come many of the issues described but we clearly saw those barriers melt as we showed operational success. The flip side is US advisors attempt to make them into Mini Me's. Don't try and teach them to shoot M16s, teach them to shoot. Everytime we went to the range, the fact I had an ACOG and lazer was thrown into my face...right up the time I took the loudest mouth's AK-47 away and out shot him. But it took lots of effort and demonstration on our part working within their norms to be able to openly confront "leaders" on occasions like that. Christian soldiers praying over our fallen jundi earned respect because it demonstrated we cared about them. The longer the Iraqi Army is around the US Soldier the better they will become because it takes time to gain the wasta to teach the professionalism they need.

Posted by TopMac 2007-10-29 14:50|| 2007-10-29 14:50|| Front Page Top

#17 To start with: make first cousin marriages a capital offense.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2007-10-29 15:08|| 2007-10-29 15:08|| Front Page Top

#18 lotp has been talking about the same things as TopMac, but from the military school side -- we teach more than just how to make war more effectively, we teach how to be citizen soldiers in a Rule of Law, high trust society. The kind of thing Zenster discusses about those cultures lacking so completely.

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2007-10-29 15:45|| 2007-10-29 15:45|| Front Page Top

#19 Christian soldiers praying over our fallen jundi earned respect because it demonstrated we cared about them.

Outstanding, TopMac! That ought to shame the Iraqis into a little compassion. It might even make some of them rethink their choice of creed. Welcome to Rantburg. In-country experience from our troops is treasured at these boards. I hope we get to hear more from you. Stay safe and thank you for defending America!

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-10-29 15:58|| 2007-10-29 15:58|| Front Page Top

#20 Thank you so much for your insight TopMac. We look forward to hearing more from you!

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2007-10-29 16:44|| 2007-10-29 16:44|| Front Page Top

#21 As long as a culture can't make or cultivate good NCOs they'll continue to get their asses handed to them by those who can.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-10-29 18:30|| 2007-10-29 18:30|| Front Page Top

#22 That ought to shame the Iraqis into a little compassion. It might even make some of them rethink their choice of creed

What on earth makes you think Iraqi soldiers don't feel compassion?

When our soldiers pray over Iraqi fallen soldiers the effect is to make US troops appear a little more normal and human to Iraqis, whose culture expects open displays of emotion. It's a culture issue not a credal one in most cases.

Posted by lotp 2007-10-29 19:05|| 2007-10-29 19:05|| Front Page Top

#23 A more interesting article might be Why the Arabs succeed at...

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-10-29 19:05|| 2007-10-29 19:05|| Front Page Top

#24 Let's see what the Saudi king accomplishes financially over the next couple months, NS. He's already done quite nicely for the kingdom, to our detriment. Americans suck at that sort of gamesmanship, by and large.

Posted by lotp 2007-10-29 19:08|| 2007-10-29 19:08|| Front Page Top

#25 But it'll be a short term win. Long term, I'd rather be playing our hand, even if it looks weak now.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-10-29 19:17|| 2007-10-29 19:17|| Front Page Top

#26 What on earth makes you think Iraqi soldiers don't feel compassion?

Ummm ... please don't read your own agenda into my words. I did not say the Iraqi soldiers were utterly without compassion. I merely pointed out how this might evoke some in them.

Furthermore, if Iraqis in general felt the same sort of compassion that we Americans do for people of all other cultures, we wouldn't be over there spilling our blood and theirs, now would we?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-10-29 20:21|| 2007-10-29 20:21|| Front Page Top

#27 @23 :NS

Damn short list though.

Posted by Lampedusa Glaviling1092 2007-10-29 20:37|| 2007-10-29 20:37|| Front Page Top

#28 Hey my cookie got eated! - that's me at #27

Posted by Tony (UK) 2007-10-29 20:38|| 2007-10-29 20:38|| Front Page Top

#29 Ummm ... please don't read your own agenda into my words. I did not say the Iraqi soldiers were utterly without compassion. I merely pointed out how this might evoke some in them.

Um... it's more a matter of reading your agenda into your words: "That ought to shame the Iraqis into a little compassion. It might even make some of them rethink their choice of creed."

Then again perhaps I should be complimentary. It's the first time you've put your meme into only two sentences.

Posted by Pappy 2007-10-29 22:36|| 2007-10-29 22:36|| Front Page Top

#30 :-) Pappy. A Factual statement

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-10-29 22:43|| 2007-10-29 22:43|| Front Page Top

#31 Yo, Pappy, what part of:

"... if Iraqis in general felt the same sort of compassion that we Americans do for people of all other cultures, we wouldn't be over there spilling our blood and theirs, now would we?"

... don't you understand? If Muslims truly gave a hot shit about this world's other cultures, we wouldn't have to be over there crushing them like so many cockroaches. Or do you argue otherwise?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-10-29 22:45|| 2007-10-29 22:45|| Front Page Top

#32 Ya know, Pappy, you piss and moan about how you don't care if I'm "smart as Einstein or as articulate as Churchill" because I keep quoting the same five memes.

Let's count a few of them, shall we?

First off when I arrived here I was dedicated to finding some sort of credible deterrent to terrorism. Yup, I still keep on trying to find a measure that will succeed so that a Muslim holocaust isn't necessary. Do you find that attempt boring? Well, tough noogies.

Second. My own previous stance of defending moderate Muslims has finally been eroded by the deafening silence of the vast majority of this world's Islamic population. Same meme? No effing way. It's been a huge paradigm shift for me to give up on what I had hoped was some sort of decent Muslim population. Far be it from you to recognize it, though.

Along with .com and Frank G. I, too, have arrived at the decision that hunter-killer teams are needed to cap the top echalons of Islam's clerical aristocracy. Much like Fred Pruitt himself recently posted as well. Of course, none of my limited warfare scenarios give pause to any of the rectal cavities who constantly try to paint me with the Big Lie of genocide. Perish the fucking thought.

Then again, of late I've come to believe that deportation or internment of America's Muslim population may well be necessary. Heaven forefend that Iraqi immigrant, Khudayr Taher, has called for this, including his own deportation. Let's please overlook how recently released WWII documents show that Japanese citizens were actively helping the Imperial Japanese government with stateside espionage.

So, what about declaring shari'a law to be a complete violation of human rights? I've only originated that within the last few months. What a tired old boring meme that must be for anyone who is unconcerned with making sure that this sort of Islamic filth finds no toehold in American constitutional law.

As you've noted, Pappy, all of these ideas are constantly repeated memes that I arrived at these boards with, totally intact and unchanged. Even to the point where I no longer refer to Bush as "shrub" and instead declared that "the better man" had won the 2004 elections.

Perish the thought that you, or anyone else might recognize that. Let's make sure to overlook how I have repeatedly vowed at this site to publicly oppose any attempt to impeach George Bush should he face such proceedings for bombing Iran's nuclear program. No way possible could that fit in with your smear campaign or attempts to discredit my own positions.

Enough of this shit!

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-10-29 23:19|| 2007-10-29 23:19|| Front Page Top

23:37 Thiling Sinatra6488
23:29 Zenster
23:26 Zenster
23:19 Zenster
22:45 Zenster
22:43 Frank G
22:40 Legolas
22:36 Frank G
22:36 Pappy
22:27 Frank G
22:26 Pappy
22:21 Pappy
22:20 Zenster
22:19 Anonymoose
22:16 Zenster
22:13 Glegum Tojo3338
22:09 Anonymoose
22:00 Chuck Simmins
22:00 Fester Hupung4453
21:59 Procopius2k
21:56 Anonymoose
21:54 Fester Hupung4453
21:31 Zenster
21:29 trailing wife