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2007-09-29 Home Front: WoT
Terry Nichols' Declaration About the Oklahoma City Bombing
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2007-09-29 11:27|| || Front Page|| [11130 views ]  Top

#1 Here is the correct link for Intelwire

Here is the correct link for the September 21, 2007, page.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2007-09-29 17:16||   2007-09-29 17:16|| Front Page Top

#2 Here is the correct link for the three sketches.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2007-09-29 17:20||   2007-09-29 17:20|| Front Page Top

#3 And your proof that he's telling the truth is what, precisely?
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2007-09-29 17:57||   2007-09-29 17:57|| Front Page Top

#4 All I remember is that McVeigh set the world land speed record for verdict to execution. Why was that?
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-09-29 18:05||   2007-09-29 18:05|| Front Page Top

#5 Seems to me the above background would have been of far greater use while McVeigh was still alive. I hope Nichols receives no special treatment for this belated and downgraded information.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-29 18:08||   2007-09-29 18:08|| Front Page Top

#6 zenster: and your proof that it is information instead of misinformation is what, exactly?
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2007-09-29 18:15||   2007-09-29 18:15|| Front Page Top

#7 Re #3: And your proof that he's telling the truth is what, precisely?

This declaration is evidence that we can evaluate in the context of other evidence. And then we can make a more informed decision about what to believe.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2007-09-29 18:16||   2007-09-29 18:16|| Front Page Top

#8 Dunno if I buy this - my first thought on reading this is that he hopes to point any future investigations, whether official or unofficial, in the wrong direction. IIRC, Philippine military intelligence unequivocally stated its belief that Nichols came to PI to learn bombmaking techniques from Muslim terrorists in the south of the country. And guess who said Filipino Muslims are affiliated with? Three guesses and the first two don't count.

McVeigh's a riddle, though; I don't know if anyone will ever figure out his actual role in all of this. This guy was definitely not your average redneck militia type. COL David Hackworth interviewed him in prison, and also got a look at his service records - Hack wrote that McVeigh "tested off the charts" on his ASVABs. I've read other accounts indicating McVeigh turned fanatically pro-Arab after the Gulf War; plus there's the question of "John Doe No. 2", who looked one hell of a lot like Jose Padilla (aka Dirty Bomb Boy).
Posted by Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) 2007-09-29 18:28||   2007-09-29 18:28|| Front Page Top

#9 However, you really haven't given us any 'evidence' to judge at all.

There is no information as to the provenance of this alleged Declaration. Exactly where was it procured, by whom, when and how can that be verified? Note that the links you provide don't go to Berger's site, but to the Wikipedia entry for Nichols.

Wikipedia as a source document is .... unconvincing.

All I see are allegations based on undocumented assertions which have no depth, validation or supporting evidence to bolster their claim to credibility.

That's the usual modus operandi of conspiracy theories, not "evidence".
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 18:31||   2007-09-29 18:31|| Front Page Top

#10 Sorry, my last comment was addressed to Mike S.
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 18:31||   2007-09-29 18:31|| Front Page Top

#11 So, was there a second sniper, or wasn't?
Posted by gromgoru 2007-09-29 18:44||   2007-09-29 18:44|| Front Page Top

#12 and your proof that it is information instead of misinformation is what, exactly?

Wise up. True or false, it still represents information that requires investigation, especially so due to its detailed nature. Whether it is of any use is for some intelligence analysts to determine.

my first thought on reading this is that he hopes to point any future investigations, whether official or unofficial, in the wrong direction. IIRC, Philippine military intelligence unequivocally stated its belief that Nichols came to PI to learn bombmaking techniques from Muslim terrorists in the south of the country.

Which occurred to me as well.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-29 18:46||   2007-09-29 18:46|| Front Page Top

#13 Saudi money for American Militiamen.
When in doubt follow the money.
???
Posted by Linker 2007-09-29 18:48||   2007-09-29 18:48|| Front Page Top

#14 I hold this in the same esteem I hold all Mike Sylwester posts, no more, no less
Posted by Frank G ">Frank G  2007-09-29 19:00||   2007-09-29 19:00|| Front Page Top

#15 Spemble gets a gold star today. Why indeed was the execution of McVeigh on the fast track from hell ? COVER UP ! But I have nothing further to spew about our phalking phony gubmint.
Posted by wxjames 2007-09-29 19:08||   2007-09-29 19:08|| Front Page Top

#16 OK, I did the reading and now realize that the Nichols declaration seems to be an official affidavit released to Trentadue.

Read Hammer's affidavit as well.

Pardon my skepticism, but can ANY of these people be trusted to tell the truth?
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 19:45||   2007-09-29 19:45|| Front Page Top

#17 Nichols is a lying sack, and the cure is another needle.
Posted by mcsegeek1 2007-09-29 20:08||   2007-09-29 20:08|| Front Page Top

#18 So ... I'm following the OK bombing conspiracy sites for the first time. Help me out here.

The Nichols affidavit was released due to a FOIA filing by Jessee Trentadue, who suspects his brother was murdered in prison rather than having killed himself. There are a plethora of sites making pretty strong claims about the manner of his death. I did note that the DOJ investigation, which concluded that both the OK bureau of prisons and the FBI had bungled things, also came down firmly on the side of suicide.

Now, I gather that the imputed reason the Trentadue brother was murdered is supposed to be that he was writing a tell-all book about his 23 month prison acquaintance with McVeigh.

And the 'explosive' details that book would reveal is that McVeigh told that one or more top government officials for whom he worked secretly told him to plan and carry out the bombing.

And here the allegations about who was an informer/agent for whom get pretty ... Byzantine. Or baroque.

There's McVeigh, who in addition to be a white supremacist and bank robber is variously alleged to really have been a top soldier involved with Iran-Contra, still working secretly for a DOD handler (or is it CIA? or FBI? sources seem to vary on this).

There's the gun & explosives dealer Moore, who Nichols says cooperated with McVeigh to stage a robbery of his own guns etc. I gather he too is alleged by some to have actually been a government informer (FBI? ATF?). As were half the members at the Elohim compound, the white supremacist community in rural OK some of whose members played a supporting role in the plot, if you believe the online speculations.

And McVeigh was, by some accounts, not only a top soldier executing secret orders from a DOD/CIA handler but also/alternately taking orders that came directly from the deputy director of the FBI to bomb the courthouse specifically.

And Nichols says that McVeigh manipulated him and lied to him about various details of his intentions, whereabouts during the Moore robbery, etc.

I can easily see the members of this little underworld spinning cover stories, hinting at their connections, lying to one another, etc. How much of it was based on reality is quite a different issue.

But let's say that there was some slimy behavior on the part of one or more government officials. Has anyone actually come up with a motivation for the deputy director of the FBI to plan and direct the destruction of that federal courthouse?

Yeah, Nichols probably went to the Phillipines to learn bombmaking. And yeah, the antisemitic White Supremacists probably got their jollies from some association with the antisemitic Muslims there. After all, in the Phillipines they were actually in revolt and in quasi-combat engagements, whereas the Elohim crowd were wannabes. Probably hoped the mana would rub off on him.

But in any case, suppose Jesse T. somehow forces the FBI to find documents that are referenced but not turned over in the FOIA discovery. Even if such documents were found and turned over and hinted or outright alleged involvement in the bombing by some senior federal official, it's almost beyond belief to suppose that there would be corroborating evidence to back up those allegations.

Indeed, on Nichols' own account (if you believe him this time around) McVeigh deliberately misled him even while they were working together. Why would any putative allegations in any documents that might get found have any credibility? What sort of 'evidence' would such allegations provide?

I cannot for the life of me imagine that Trentadue will do more than, maybe, provide some detail to the DOJ's critical comments re: FBI and Bureau of Prisons handling of the investigation into his brother's case.

And if there is some association with Padilla, I think it will be a cold day in Hell before we find it out, no matter who gets elected next year.

So, folks .... what have I missed about Nichols' declaration and impending interview that suggests we might get more insight into that whole OK bombing mess? I confess I've stayed away from the conspiracy and other sites on this one, so perhaps I've overlooked some important thread ???
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 20:55||   2007-09-29 20:55|| Front Page Top

#19 One detail I picked up that really might explain a whole lot of the hints about secret government plots, DOD/CIA/FBI handlers etc:

The summary of McVeigh's trial indicates he and his associates were methamphetamine users (and some associates were manufacturers/dealers too).

Meth is pretty well documented to induce and intensify paranoid thinking.

It would be ironic if, in the end, the reality were that all of the hints and allegations McVeigh made were the outgrowth of that meth use, combined with whatever other toxic influences sent him into the white supremacist / survivalist movement.

It would be even more ironic, but not particularly surprising, if all the FBI lapses used to bolster conspiracy theories regarding the bombing turned out to be garden variety bumbling by field agents combined with a lot of CYA.
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 21:11||   2007-09-29 21:11|| Front Page Top

#20 Perhaps I should start cutting back on my meth.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-09-29 21:13||   2007-09-29 21:13|| Front Page Top

#21 Probably a good idea, NS.
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 21:14||   2007-09-29 21:14|| Front Page Top

#22 At least until Hillary puts in a mandatory dental care plan, anyway.
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 21:17||   2007-09-29 21:17|| Front Page Top

#23 Nimble Spemble; All I remember is that McVeigh set the world land speed record for verdict to execution. Why was that?

wxjames; Spemble gets a gold star today. Why indeed was the execution of McVeigh on the fast track from hell ? COVER UP ! But I have nothing further to spew about our phalking phony gubmint.

..and hardly any peeps from the f'g peep-gallery that woulda been screaming peeps till their everlovin peep-heads fell off if Nichols waz black or a muslim.

And what's that you say,
'bout our fine Gubmint especially the FBI and BURN 'EM OUT JANET RENO?,

Did you say that they are the finest specimens of ass-covering-liars since that BORN Government Again COUPLE from the State of Arkansas?

**

RE: Oklahoma City Bomb, same opinion

Most folks believe there were other perps who helped Tim McVeigh with the Oklahoma City Bomb.

¿So Why execute Tim McVeigh when only Tim McVeigh knew who they were?

¿What's so wrong with postponing his death like we do with every other convicted Murder 1 prisoner condemned to death?
Posted by Red Dawg">Red Dawg  2007-09-29 21:23||   2007-09-29 21:23|| Front Page Top

#24 ¿What would have been so wrong with postponing his death like we do with every other convicted Murder 1 prisoner condemned to death?
Posted by Red Dawg">Red Dawg  2007-09-29 21:26||   2007-09-29 21:26|| Front Page Top

#25 Ok, I'm seeing the shape of the argument now.

It was what, about 23 months or so between conviction and execution? IIRC he didn't contest the charges, just pled necessity due to Waco. But then the FBI realized they hadn't given Nichols all their documents (Freeh had to go redfaced to congress on that) & McVeigh's lawyers appealed up to SCOTUS, who refused to hear the appeal.

So maybe a coverup. Or maybe understandable since McVeigh never denied he'd built and detonated the bomb, SCOTUS refused the appeal and there were 160 dead people for which the American public wanted some action.

Dunno. As with most things Clintonian, probably obfuscated beyond recovery.
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 21:29||   2007-09-29 21:29|| Front Page Top

#26 .
Re #18: I gather that the imputed reason the Trentadue brother was murdered is supposed to be that he was writing a tell-all book about his 23 month prison acquaintance with McVeigh.

McVeigh told his own story in the book American Terrorist, and this should be the primary book to be read by anyone who wants to study this crime.

I doubt that McVeigh told some different story to any fellow prisoner in the systematic manner alleged by David Paul Hammer, who could have concocted such a book from other publicly available materials.

There is no doubt, however, that Terry Nichols has personal knowledge of the plot. This Declaration deserves attention.

With regard to the suspicion that Nichols went to the Phillipines in order to meet with Moslem terrorists, I wrote a series of articles about that here.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2007-09-29 21:36||   2007-09-29 21:36|| Front Page Top

#27 Jesus H Christ Mike Sylwester, that waz all a set up to read that 47.6 part piece you wrote back in 2004!

ROLF thanks for reminding us why Mikey catches so much heat here!!

LOL!
Posted by Red Dawg">Red Dawg  2007-09-29 21:46||   2007-09-29 21:46|| Front Page Top

#28 Quoting a headline I once saw on this blog titled, Rantburg.

Thruther's stranger than fiction.
Posted by Mike N. 2007-09-29 21:55||   2007-09-29 21:55|| Front Page Top

#29 ROTFLO
Posted by lotp 2007-09-29 21:56||   2007-09-29 21:56|| Front Page Top

#30 Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
Posted by Anonymoose 2007-09-29 22:03||   2007-09-29 22:03|| Front Page Top

#31 Re #27: ROLF thanks for reminding us why Mikey catches so much heat here!!

In previous years there was a broader range of opinions among Rantburgers than there is now. Gradually, however, "heat" was applied on many Rantburgers until they did not or could not continue to participate. Maybe that "heat" is reduced now. We will see.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2007-09-29 22:09||   2007-09-29 22:09|| Front Page Top

#32 Mike, When you're not deliberately being an ass, you have some great posts. You're obviously no idiot.

You gotta expect some heat for your opinions on this one, though.
Posted by Mike N. 2007-09-29 22:15||   2007-09-29 22:15|| Front Page Top

#33 I stand by my tepid civil response in #14. I made a promise to Fred over a year ago to "let it go" with MS and Aris. I feel like I took a shower :-)
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-09-29 22:28||   2007-09-29 22:28|| Front Page Top

#34 Re #8: Philippine military intelligence unequivocally stated its belief that Nichols came to PI to learn bombmaking techniques from Muslim terrorists in the south of the country.

I don't think that Nichols brought information and bomb materials from the Philippines to the USA. Rather, I supsect he intended to make a lot of money by taking information and bomb materials from to the USA to the Philippines.

Nichols was broke, was stealing lots of explosives and weapons in the USA, and was traveling to the Philippines. This situation presented money-making possibilities that Nichols probably recognized.

If he did become involved with Moslem radicals in the Philippines, I think he did it without McVeigh's participation or even knowledge. Nichols was interested primarily in making money for himself and his family, a goal of no interest to McVeigh. Why should Nichols let McVeigh intrude into and perhaps take over Nichols' own money-making schemes.

If Nichols could predict to Moslem contacts there that the courthouse in Oklahoma City would be blown up on a particular day, his knowledge and credibility might become very valuable to those contacts.

If Moslem radicals were present at the Murrah building when it exploded, I think they were there only to observe, based on a tip they received from Nichols. I don't think they planted explosives in the building to help the blast McVeigh detonated from the Ryder truck.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2007-09-29 22:32||   2007-09-29 22:32|| Front Page Top

#35 Re #33: I made a promise to Fred over a year ago to "let it go" with MS and Aris.

Indeed, maybe the "heat" has been reduced and Rantburg will again include a broader range of opinions.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2007-09-29 22:37||   2007-09-29 22:37|| Front Page Top

#36 How did this end up on the ops page?

Ima thinks the mods need a lashin'

Not from me though, I like it here. Maybe Frank could step up and take one for the team.
Posted by Mike N. 2007-09-29 22:42||   2007-09-29 22:42|| Front Page Top

#37 Indeed, maybe the "heat" has been reduced and Rantburg will again include a broader range of opinions.

LOL. We welcome the Kucinich, Mike Gravel, and Ron Paul crowd along with you. It's a "wide stance".
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-09-29 22:56||   2007-09-29 22:56|| Front Page Top

#38 It's always good to have free entertainment, and I love good fiction :-)
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-09-29 22:58||   2007-09-29 22:58|| Front Page Top

#39 Re #4, NS:

I was waiting in line to give blood 9/12/01, picked up Reader's Digest and read about McVeigh's arrest, trial, and execution. It occurred to me that day that we might've been a bit hasty.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2007-09-29 23:38||   2007-09-29 23:38|| Front Page Top

#40 It's not like McVeigh was going anywhere. Besides straight to Hell, that is.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-29 23:54||   2007-09-29 23:54|| Front Page Top

23:54 Zenster
23:50 Zenster
23:46 Zenster
23:38 Seafarious
23:24 Zenster
23:24 Barbara Skolaut
23:23 Barbara Skolaut
23:21 Zenster
23:21 Barbara Skolaut
23:19 Excalibur
23:03 DMFD
22:58 Frank G
22:56 Frank G
22:42 Mike N.
22:37 Mike Sylwester
22:32 Mike Sylwester
22:28 Frank G
22:20 Mike N.
22:15 Mike N.
22:12 Mike N.
22:09 Mike Sylwester
22:05 Mike N.
22:03 Anonymoose
21:56 lotp









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