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2007-04-24 Home Front: Politix

Save Iraq - Surber smacks em with an AWESOME quote.

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Posted by Brett 2007-04-24 00:00|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 What sort of tree do you plant as penance for turning your back on 24 million people?

Our troops liberated them from Saddam.

If they choose to make $hit out of their gift then that is on them not on our troops.

Posted by FeralCat 2007-04-24 00:59|| 2007-04-24 00:59|| Front Page Top

#2 Perhaps, Cat, but it does seem that a large number of Iraqis would be willing to try and make the gift work.

If the Dhimmicrats let them, that is.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-04-24 01:05|| 2007-04-24 01:05|| Front Page Top

#3 If they choose to make $hit out of their gift then that is on them not on our troops.

Does the "they" you are referring to include the Iranian government who is feeding both sides of the conflict?

Posted by gorb 2007-04-24 01:20|| 2007-04-24 01:20|| Front Page Top

#4 Steve - "Perhaps, Cat, but it does seem that a large number of Iraqis would be willing to try and make the gift work."

Then they should have made that "would be" present tense. And they should have done it some time ago.

Gorb - "Does the "they" you are referring to include the Iranian government who is feeding both sides of the conflict?"

Do you mean Maliki's buddy?

Posted by FeralCat 2007-04-24 01:38|| 2007-04-24 01:38|| Front Page Top

#5 FeralCat is right. It is up to the Iraqis to get their shit together, and fast. I dont see where it says we agreed to provide security for them forever. They have had enough time to put together a million man army by now but they still cant even defend their own capital.

Posted by Oscar Snomosh6362 2007-04-24 03:11|| 2007-04-24 03:11|| Front Page Top

#6 You're right, Oscar. It's time to cave in to bin Laden's prediction.

Go plant a tree.

Posted by Bobby 2007-04-24 05:50|| 2007-04-24 05:50|| Front Page Top

#7 FeralCat: The picture of Maliki with Ahmanutjob changes nothing. Iran would fuel the sectarian violence with or without Maliki's help. He was obligated to talk to the guy because he is the country's PM, and he had to be diplomatic. Don't be suckered into just looking at this kind of picture and taking it at face value. The logical conclusions will not model reality.

I'm sure Maliki doesn't want the violence to continue, but he is doing what every other politician whose job is insecure in that part of the world does which is to try to develop a safe place to stand. Unfortunately every other faction there seems to have no compunction about pulling others down so they can be on top. Maliki has a huge problem given the circumstances and his psychology for dealing with the problem. Remember the world around Maliki is mostly Sunni, not Shiite. If Iran went ape on Iraq right now it would be all over before the news got back to us here in our armchairs. And it would be even worse if the US left. Maliki is having to consider that more because of US indecision brought on by some ~~clueless prostitutes~~ spineless politicians.

Liberating the country from Saddam was only a gesture. The real obligation was to stand up the country on its own two feet. Bush understood that. Congress naively hoped it would be over in a couple of years, but that is irrelevant to a promise that is made in good faith. It went longer than the Congress would have liked and they have decided they are going to walk away from their obligations, so now they think are to saving face for acting in bad faith and are desperately trying to pin responsibility for this on everything but their own naivete.

What is stopping us? The liberal mainstream media feeding susceptible liberal minds, and their willingness to suspend reason and be pulled along by their noserings. Who is taking advantage of it for pointless political gain? The likes of Reid, Murtha, and Pelosi. They are the epitome of bad faith. They have no plan, but they whore themselves out by trading their cheap pandering to the same susceptible liberal minds for their votes.

All the US has to do is get over our denial, grow some balls, stop giving off signals like we are quitters, and be firm. The media has to stop slanting stories in whichever direction they think will pull the most consumers that week. Liberals have to accept that people will have to die so that many more will be able to live, and that it is not Bush's fault that a relatively small percentage of savages with guns are making all the problems. They must die or they will kill and make miserable many more. We will win eventually if we do this. Part of doing this will be to pacify Iran, and that will take some blood too probably. It would be less expensive in all respects, blood and treasure, if we just went in and did it. The whole world, including most Iranians, would breathe a sigh of relief. But no, we have to assuage the fears of this symbiotic liberal/media relationship who are afraid of their own shadow, who think that if we are "nice" that everyone else will be "nice" too and not understand that they will just kill us last, who can't tell wrong from right, and who love humanity so much that they don't care that many more would die and live in misery if we walk away from what we started. And they will be happy to adopt any half-baked rationale to justify such inhuman inaction.

I don't understand how some people can be so blind or willing to look the other way about these matters, but they are.

Oscar Snomosh6362: Putting guns in the hands of a million Iraqis does not mean they have the million man army. I hope you meant something other than what you wrote. And the bad guys in the capital aren't exactly walking around in uniforms. This is fourth-generation war, not the war your grandparents fought.

I will agree that if they do seem to not appreciate the opportunity they have been given that we should leave, but I don't think we have come to the point where we can draw any firm conclusions about that yet, and we will never be able to say when that point will come. But be patient. Look at things through more than just your own eyes. We will know the time when we see it.

Posted by gorb 2007-04-24 06:26|| 2007-04-24 06:26|| Front Page Top

#8 Well said, gorb. Well said.

"I don't understand how some people can be so blind or willing to look the other way about these matters, but they are."

That makes two of us. How Harry Reid et al can be so damned blind to the consequences of showing weakness to our enemies, is beyond me. And if it doesn't stop soon, we will pay a horrible price for that lack of resolve.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-04-24 07:15|| 2007-04-24 07:15|| Front Page Top

#9 This comment thread illustrates the great lie of the last House election, viz that the Democrats won because of "anti-war" sentiment. In fact, the Jacksonians - some in evidence here - turned against the Republicans because of a half-hearted war (and, of course, an undefended border).

Posted by Excalibur 2007-04-24 08:59|| 2007-04-24 08:59|| Front Page Top

#10 Harry Reid and Queen Nancy aren't blind. They know exactly what they are doing and what the effect it has on our troops. This is exactly why they are doing what they are doing.

The fact that they don't bother to attend a Iraq briefing by the general in charge in Washington DC but are more then willing to go halfway across the planet to visit (and kow-tow to) the enemy shows exactly where there loyalties lie. (Hint: its not with america)

Posted by CrazyFool 2007-04-24 09:09|| 2007-04-24 09:09|| Front Page Top

#11 The answer is simple. Harry Reid is a liberal Democrat, a self-absorbed, power-hungry hedonist who enjoys taking other people's money for fun and profit, and, most of all, enjoys telling other people how to live their lives. He is part of the VietNam generation, the part that assuaged its conscience and justified its cowardice by demonizing the men who went to war when their country called, the part that feels it is smarter and more deserving than everyone else, that it can do and say anything to get what it wants and the world will be a better place for it. Sometimes, in the dark of the night, I wonder if the world would have a been a better place if American troops had come home from VietNam and turned their guns on the real enemy here at home.

Posted by RWV 2007-04-24 09:13|| 2007-04-24 09:13|| Front Page Top

#12 It's simple if you think about it. Democrats are Democrats first, Americans a distant second if at all.

Posted by jds 2007-04-24 10:35|| 2007-04-24 10:35|| Front Page Top

#13 If they choose to make $hit out of their gift then that is on them not on our troops.

The Iraqi people have had years to figure out that the terrorists are not their friends. How many more will have to die needlessly horrible deaths for them to begin acting upon it and snuffing jihadis at every opportunity? If murderous sectarian strife seems so reasonable to the majority of Iraqis, then we have ZERO hope of overcoming their current instability.

From all indications, they simply cannot desist in their petty quarrels long enough to unite in a common quest for national security. It is a Nanny State mentality to protect people from themselves. Only the prospect of substantial Iranian intervention provides any real incentive for us to remain. Let's neutralize Iran, halt that devisive influence and then see if things improve in Iraq. If they do not, it's time to let them twist gently in the breeze.

We've planted over 3,000 ~~trees~~ precious soldiers in our quest to stabilize Iraq. Perhaps it will require a massive number of Iraqis to die for us to demonstrate that Islamic government of any sort will never work and, based upon that proven notion, begin dismantling all of them.

If it isn't obvious by now, massive carnage in the Muslim Middle East is no longer a top contender on my list of concerns. Keeping Muslims occupied and the fuck out of our hair is job #1. If setting them at each other's throats is the only way of doing this, short of glassing over the entire Middle East, then so be it.

I'd love to see us succeed in Iraq. It would be a vital asset to our foreign policy portfolio. I'm just not prepared to hold their hand for another five damn years waiting for them to stop squabbling like a bunch of infants. Either they show some real determination to quell the renegade militias and other terrorist groups or they reap the whirlwind. So far, the Iraqi government has acted more like our enemy than our ally. That is simply unacceptable.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-24 11:13|| 2007-04-24 11:13|| Front Page Top

#14 What about the Sheiks in Anbar who turned against AQ? Is that real determination?

Posted by Bobby 2007-04-24 13:02|| 2007-04-24 13:02|| Front Page Top

#15 Bobby, you ask the $million question. It is early in the Anbar transition. Who knows if it will last, but there is evidence that the other sheiks/tribes in areas like Diyala have seen Anbar and want no part of the thug/sharia rule of AQI. Will this attitude spread? How permanent is it? Can it overcome the cash/meddling of Iran's Al Qud's provacateurs? Can it overcome the generally screwed up nature of islamic societies enough to represent any kind of stability to the western world? I don't know.

Zenster and Feral Cat raise the very fair point that this can't go on forever. But it has to go on for some time longer. I think (hope) the wartime fatigue is setting in for the Iraqis as well as us. The facade is off of AQI and hopefully the mahdi army / shiite douchbags too (a stretch, I know).

Regardless, Reid, Pelosi and the swine in the media (who only know how to highlight the negative, regardless of subject matter) deserve a great deal of credit for our being where we are today. Had they been foursquare in the pursuit of success the enemy would be more disheartened and Iran/Syria would be far more reticent about involving themselves too overtly in Iraq.

Posted by remoteman 2007-04-24 14:59|| 2007-04-24 14:59|| Front Page Top

#16 #8: "How Harry Reid et al can be so damned blind to the consequences of showing weakness to our enemies, is beyond me."

Then I'll explain it to you, Dave. They're not blind. They. Don't. Care.

No harm to America is too great if it appears to the DemocRats that it will help them get back in power.

It's not like the Iraqis ~~are white people~~ can vote for them, y'know.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2007-04-24 15:23|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html] 2007-04-24 15:23|| Front Page Top

#17 You are expecting too much. The Iraquis are a confused people. They saw we spared them from Saddam, and they like that. They saw we helped them establish an elected government - remember the purple fingers - and they kind of liked that. But the Sunis hate the Shiites and the Shiites hate the Sunis, and al Qaeda keeps pointing out that some of the womens' ankles are showing and this outrages all of them. Then they all get to thinking about the crusades, not inventin anything, Hollywood movies, losing respect, and how hot it is - then they start killing each other to get us to leave. It is not a humanitarian crisis, it is a psychiatric crisis.

Posted by Hank 2007-04-24 15:38|| 2007-04-24 15:38|| Front Page Top

#18 I think a part of the problem is that with their tribal mentality they always follow the strong horse. The strong horse isn't necessarily the one that can pull the hardest, you also have to throw in stamina. The way the US is behaving it may have the most talent and firepower, but its stamina is constantly in question. This is one of the fundamental problems with our democracy, our inability to commit fully. Many Iraqis live their lives not far from the stone age. Tribal/gang politics and social structures demand the kind of behavior you are seeing. They have to be made to understand that the US Military is the new boss and that this is the way it is going to be. Then they will have to be exposed to and practice more modern forms of civilization for at least two generations (probably more) to see, understand, and adopt a new way of life that they hopefully will view as superior. There will have to be a transitional generation that will insulate the kids modern thinking from the grandparents tribal thinking, and what age group that is is hard to pin down. But I digress. :-)

In any case, it is the Pelosis, Reids, and Murthas and their mindless minions who can't think for themselves (not that I'm suggesting these three can reason well in the first place) who are creating the appearance of always being on the breaking point, which we would not be if we didn't have this fifth column working against the greater good both here, in Iraq, and for the rest of the world for that matter.

Posted by gorb 2007-04-24 15:39|| 2007-04-24 15:39|| Front Page Top

#19 Is that real determination?

How can you tell? Superficially, yes. Then again, the vast majority of Iraqis (save the Kurds), have shown themselves to be shameless opportunists. So, how can you tell that the Anbar phenomenon isn't just a calculated response to temporarily gain favorable treatment by Coalition troops. The rewards are palpable. Quicker installation of infrastructure like sewage processing, electrical grid and water purification. Once those are in place, will the sheiks still be against al Qaeda? By that time, will the Sunnis have taken too many hits and decided to once again embrace al Qaeda?

Muslims, in general, are far too craven to be dealt with diplomatically. Koranic doctrine is far too hostile to us outsiders, no matter how sterling our intentions. They are permitted taqiyya and a host of other subversive methods that mask or conceal their real intentions. None of these subterfuges are even seen as morally reprehensible.

I think a part of the problem is that with their tribal mentality they always follow the strong horse.

While I certainly agree that American democrats are undermining our prerceived resolve in Iraq, exactly how much weight are we supposed to pull? We are doing all of the heavy lifting while our Iraqi "allies" sit back as they rake in the largesse. Yes, the Iraqi police are taking some major hits, but it's not in combat. Being blown up in front of a recruiting station isn't the same as actually going door-to-door in Sadr city.

Too often, these new recruits are applying because like with Mexican Federales Iraqi law enforcement offers an unrivaled opportunity for graft, bribery and extortion. Those seeking police work for such dishonest reasons are also the ones likely to be shrugging off any obligation to report terrorist activity. Therefore, when these saps get fragged at the job shops, it doesn't really count as combat.

Beyond that, this is borne out in how the Iraqi police even in their functional operation have proven to be nothing but a revolving door for Iraqi terror suspects. Only by changing the ROE during The Surge have we begun to kill our foe in effective numbers

Many Iraqis live their lives not far from the stone age. Tribal/gang politics and social structures demand the kind of behavior you are seeing. They have to be made to understand that the US Military is the new boss and that this is the way it is going to be. Then they will have to be exposed to and practice more modern forms of civilization for at least two generations (probably more) to see, understand, and adopt a new way of life that they hopefully will view as superior.

There is no way America is going to hold Iraq's hand for another "two generations". This points up the need for some other approach than the one we are using. In light of early results, I'm willing to give the surge strategy another six to twelve months. Yet, in a culture so fixated upon violence, it may well prove that extreme demonstrations of military might will be required to subdue the terrorists. Long ago, hellholes like Falluja and Najaf should have been leveled with the insurgents left inside. Only such heavy-handed tactics will likely deliver the sort of obedience we require in order to get the job done. Such an approach may be needed in Sadr City, especially if we do not have the determination to off Moqtada Sadr the next time he rears his ugly head.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-24 16:32|| 2007-04-24 16:32|| Front Page Top

#20 Dang Hanks got it down right. They're just all nutz and are working things out in a massive armed group therapy session.

Posted by Shipman">Shipman 2007-04-24 18:00|| 2007-04-24 18:00|| Front Page Top

23:58 JosephMendiola
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