Article

2007-04-17

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Posted by Chuck Simmins 2007-04-17 12:48|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Blaming the victims is very sick, Chuck. The cadets are about 3% of the student body and they are unarmed. I don't know if you've seen college classrooms lately, but there's not a lot of loose stuff that can be used as weapons, especially against a heavily armed gunman. One professor died defending a doorway while students escaped out windows. Shame on you.

Posted by Greagum Bluetooth5499 2007-04-17 13:35|| 2007-04-17 13:35|| Front Page Top

#2 At least one student, a Palestinian, moved toward the shooting while recording on his cell phone camera. He was turned back by police before he got close enough to do anything, but he was not running away. Who knows but that the phone pictures could have turned out to be critical.

While I don't 'blame' the victimes, I do believe we in America must change our mentality or we shall all be victims.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-04-17 13:57|| 2007-04-17 13:57|| Front Page Top

#3 While I don't 'blame' the victimes, I do believe we in America must change our mentality or we shall all be victims.

The Eloi syndrome continues

Posted by anonymous5089 2007-04-17 14:30|| 2007-04-17 14:30|| Front Page Top

#4 I do not believe anything Chuck wrote "blames the victims". He is asking why so many people - and to my mind especially so many young men - chose to become victims. Is it their fault they were attacked? No. Is it their fault if, as has been reported, so many allowed themselves to be slaughtered? Yes. Hell, yes. To claim otherwise is to make a mockery of those reported to have fought back; to have given their own lives for others.

Yoni Tidi put it best on the Hugh Hewitt show yesterday: There may come a moment when all you can do is choose to die on you feet or die on your knees. Our entire civilization may be faced with that choice.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-04-17 14:34|| 2007-04-17 14:34|| Front Page Top

#5 It reads as if we'd blame the victims.

Go read Bill Whittle (I'll wait). Most of us are sheep. Very few are sheepdogs. We sheep generally believe in the law and believe that if there is a problem, a police officer will come along and take care of it. Events like Columbine, V-Tech, etc are notable because 1) they are horrible tragedies and 2) they are very rare, compared to what we encounter in our daily lives.

Sure, the young students could have rushed the attacker -- if they had the presence of mind to do so, and if they had had some previous training to help steady their nerves and will, and if they had recognized what was happening prior to the gunman bursting into their classroom.

In other word, if they had been sheepdogs and not sheep.

Glenn Reynolds remarked on his blog yesterday that he'd never had any training whatsoever on what to do in such a situation on campus. I'm also on the faculty at my institution, and I also have never had one lick of training.

Despite my growl and seeming fierce demeanor here on the Burg, deep down I suspect I'm just a well-educated sheep. I suppose I'd 'know' the right thing to do if a gunman burst into my clinic or classroom.

But Lordy, you wouldn't want to depend on me.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-04-17 14:51|| 2007-04-17 14:51|| Front Page Top

#6 Fair enough. But all this is to say I "blame the victims" not for their behavior on the day but for not preparing themselves in advance. It is not as if we have not had prior warning. That goes triple for anyone reading Rantburg.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-04-17 14:55|| 2007-04-17 14:55|| Front Page Top

#7 The difference is that those on Flight 93 did not have the options of barricading doors, shielding behind furniture, or jumping out windows. They were surely going to die if they did nothing. That said, all of you armchair heroes who are blaming the victims would also have probably chosen a door or window in lieu of defenselessly charging a heavily-armed gunman who would surely spray you with bullets.

Posted by Flomble Prince of the Leprechauns4277 2007-04-17 14:56|| 2007-04-17 14:56|| Front Page Top

#8 Will there be any stories about people fighting back

holocaust survivor sacrifices self to save students

As Jews worldwide honored on Monday the memory of those who were murdered in the Holocaust, a 76-year-old survivor sacrificed his life to save his students in Monday's shooting at Virginia Tech College that left 33 dead and over two dozen wounded....Several of Librescu's other students sent e-mails to his wife, Marlena, telling of how he blocked the gunman's way and saved their lives, said Librescu's son, Joe.

Librescu was sent to a labor camp in Russia as a child and saved by the townspeople. His father was deported by the Nazis.

As a scientist working under Nicolae Ceaucescu's oppressive regime, Librescu was forbidden to have any contact with sources outside Romania. He defied the ban, continuing to publish scientific articles secretly.

His Zionist affinities eventually caused him to be forced out of his job. In 1978, the Librescus emigrated from Romania to Israel, where they raised two sons. In 1986, the family moved to Virginia for Librescu's sabbatical. While they only planned to stay in the United States a year, but have lived there ever since.

read the whole thing and weep - I did.

Posted by Angaiger Tojo1904 2007-04-17 15:11|| 2007-04-17 15:11|| Front Page Top

#9 When 30 people are shot by a man with a .22 pistol and a 9mm pistol, yeah, I might blame the last few victims. This guy was not heavily armed. His weapons needed reloading at some point.

Erasers, pointers, desks, hell, it was an engineering building. Lots of metal things. It's not the object that makes a weapon, it's the will of the man with that object.

God bless that Israeli professor. Following my thesis, it's extremely sad to think that a 70 ish man had to do this when younger and far faster and numbler people did not.

Steve, you've handled emergencies just like this. Haven't you ever had a violent patient? God knows, I have.

The notion that having a gun makes you unbeatable is just that, a notion.

Posted by Chuck Simmins">Chuck Simmins 2007-04-17 16:19|| http://northshorejournal.org]">[http://northshorejournal.org] 2007-04-17 16:19|| Front Page Top

#10 It is human nature to flee if you don't have a ready way to fight back or anything to defend. The west has encouraged this behavior because people depend on police protection. 90% of the time, this will be ok since the person just wants the material goods and as little fuss as possible. 9.9% of the time the victim will be hurt since it is a rape or other violent crime. The other .1% is really where you need to do something or you will die.
So, what happens when a society, bred for docility is faced with a fight or flight situation? Flight, or surrender. This is why the gunmen can rack up kills. It isn't the victim's fault, it isn't even society's fault. It just is. Not many people know what they will do when facing a loaded gun and a killer behind the trigger.
I think this is why it is necessary to have people with concealed guns on campus. Not only that, but the people that have them are trained again and again for these types of scenarios. There will be screaming, people running and bullets cracking through the air and if you aren't trained, you will not do well. This is a good part of the reason soldiers fight well and policemen react quickly. The training immediately kicks in and you do what you need to do. As one of the Greek philosophers said (don't remember which one), "Courage can be taught as a child is taught to speak."

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-04-17 16:20|| 2007-04-17 16:20|| Front Page Top

#11 Despite my growl and seeming fierce demeanor here on the Burg, deep down I suspect I'm just a well-educated sheep. I suppose I'd 'know' the right thing to do if a gunman burst into my clinic or classroom.

I once gave a half-hour speech at a weekend retreat, and one of my themes was "the cell phone call from God." That's when you find yourself in a situation where someone else needs you to do something that you'd rather not do.

Happens all the time. Sometimes, the necessary deed is momentous; sometimes, it's less so.

People do answer that phone. More often than you might think.

All you need, really--though it's quite a lot--is the determination to take the call. It's OK to ask Him for it in advance.

Posted by Mike 2007-04-17 16:50|| 2007-04-17 16:50|| Front Page Top

#12 Personally I don't look at this type of discussion as blaming the victims. It obviously needs to be discussed because the only people who took ownership of their situation were a Palestinian and an Israeli. There is no polite way to ask the kind of questions that obviously need to be asked to get people to think along constructive lines that may lead to a better outcome next time. If these "now" questions are avoided, lessons will be overlooked, and the next time a similar situation happens there will be similar results. For most people, now is the time to ask these questions while the meaning and impact are fresh and real. Discussing it at a "polite" distance in time or in whatever other "politically correct" means some people have in mind is not a whole solution, it is only the second half. It has to be looked at with all due respect to the real victims, but these questions have to be asked. Perhaps calling it "blaming the victims" is an accurate description for some points of view, but these folks represent the lowest common denominator and we shouldn't pander to them. I think the majority know darned well it wasn't their fault, but quicker thinking could have contributed to a better outcome.

People who shy away from "blaming the victim" probably imagine that it's the majority's point of view and actually do blame the victim themselves whether they say it or not. I guess I'm glad I didn't even think of it that way until I saw it mentioned elsewhere.

The "don't blame the victim" mentality may well feel out of control.

The big thing I take away from this is that our society is so emasculated by the Barney the Evil Purple Dinosaur mentality that the kids we raise in it actually have to be taught to get over it. Pathetic. Talitubbies are evil, too. Too many of these kids probably weren't even aware of the concept of dying on your knees vs. dying on your feet, and those that were probably couldn't count on the backup needed to make it work. How could they effectively deal with this kind of situation? And furthermore, how could they be expected to understand terror and what needs to be done to stop it? There will come a day when you and I are living in nursing homes and depending on these kids not to sell out our country on us.

At the same time the response will have to be a measured one. We shouldn't go too far the other way.

Posted by gorb 2007-04-17 17:27|| 2007-04-17 17:27|| Front Page Top

#13 As some/most of you may know I work security for LBNL, but have worked security for other large campuses and institutions as well. There are a few things you pick up on right away when working security.

Most people are sheep. Even people who are attempting to do something wrong are really sheep when you catch them at it. Some will try to intimidate you, but if you stand your ground or even get in their face a little bit, 99% of them will back down real quick. It's the ones that won;t that you have to look out for. This includes your fellow officers if you're in security.

A person in trouble or in an emergency situation is 23 times more likely to have a security officer respond first to the situation than a police officer or paramedic. One reason is that there are a lot more security officers around than there are cops when an emergency situation arises. Another is that we are, generally, trained to act as observers and to move towards an emergency rather than away from it. Only in that manner can we provide help to our customers. However, most people seem to think of security as little more than "rent-a-cops" and not as their most likely first responders so we, as a rule get little respect. In most cases, people are right to think that way.

Now with both of the points made above, I have to say that there's not 1 in 10 security officers that I trust on my own site to guard my back because of that last part above. As I said, most people are sheep and that extends to security personnel as well. The few, the very few people that I trust to guard my back and help out in an emergency situation, are also the ones I trust most to know what the hell they are doing and stay out of my way when I'm working. The list of people I'm not sure of, BTW, includes at least one person who is retired military. He'll go right up to the point of doing traffic control for fire and police responders, but will not enter the building with them or before them. He's a good officer and knows his job, but he won;t go that extra mile. Most security people are just going through the motions of a day job.

Some people though move into emergency situations, fires, ambulance responses, emergency medical situations, accidents, apprehensions of intruders, etc., etc. in addition to moving towards them. There's a difference. Something clicks in their heads and they just start acting and think about the consequences later. Everything is suddenly real clear, real calm, real sharp and in focus.

Not everyone thinks this way and not everyone is capable of thinking this way. Most people's minds sort of shut down and leave them unable to think clearly in an emergency or leave them panic-stricken. It is not natural to move towards trouble and especially it's not natural to move into trouble. Most people simply can't do it. It's not in their natures.

So, while we can stand here and pontificate all day about the victims acting, most of them probably were not capable of acting or even thinking of acting. The few who were, well, they were able, voluntarily or otherwise, to throw that switch in their heads.

Sometimes those people get killed. Sometimes they become heroes. Sometimes both happen.

That's my experience anyway and my not so humble opinion.

Worth what ya' paid for it.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg 2007-04-17 17:30|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com] 2007-04-17 17:30|| Front Page Top

#14 How do we know some portion of the 30 didn't try to fight back? It's a bit early to really know.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-04-17 17:50|| 2007-04-17 17:50|| Front Page Top

#15 Chuck: yes, I've dealt with violent patients, usually those with a psychiatric or intoxication problem. Different situation --

1) in the ER or hospital, a place I know well.

2) lots of backup.

3) a clearly defined situation that we knew how to handle in advance (hell at County these were called 'Code Browns')

But I have to say, if I had been in the ER on call and someone had pulled a couple of pistols and started shooting, my first rational thought would have been "where the hell is security?"

And I hope FOTSGreg would have been there.

I admit it: I'm a sheep. I read here, I comment, I try to understand. I have medical training and I'll go to an injured person anytime, anywhere.

But I don't have the training to jump a shooter, and I suspect that in the second or two I'd have to make that decision I'd lock up. If I was still alive I'd hope my brain would start working again and I'd do something that could help, but those two seconds might well mean I'd be lying there on the classroom floor in a puddle of my own blood.

That's not a happy thought to contemplate. None of this is.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-04-17 18:27|| 2007-04-17 18:27|| Front Page Top

#16 I'm single (divorced) - 47 - kids grown - don't think I could live with myself if I didn't do something - I think I'd do it....and I'd probably be dead

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-04-17 18:33|| 2007-04-17 18:33|| Front Page Top

#17 Agreed Frank. My point is that we any of us would probably be dead either way. And that is one point the Oprah-speakers saying "don't blame the victim" have yet to assimilate. My second and related point is that knowing what we know there is no excuse whatsoever not to be as prepared as you possibly can be in your home and your workplace. Whatever pissant earlier in this thread was throwing around accusations of folks being "armchair heroes" for facing the obvious is exactly the sort of man I would not want watching my back. In my training, it is the whiners and the hysterics we have to evacuate first so they do not get in the way people who are immobile or infirm.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-04-17 18:57|| 2007-04-17 18:57|| Front Page Top

#18 Steve White,

And I, in turn, sure as hell hope someone with your training is around if I ever do find myself in that kind of situation.

Security people get killed all the time - usually because we do something stupid. I've been lucky.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg 2007-04-17 19:01|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com] 2007-04-17 19:01|| Front Page Top

#19 there are worse things than dying.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-04-17 19:13|| 2007-04-17 19:13|| Front Page Top

#20 I was informed at work today that one of our Co-Op students from last year was killed yesterday. Her name was Maxine Turner. These were young people, for the most part. I talked with her, if only to say Good Morning or How are you doing. She asked about my horses. Just a young, full-of-life kid who was greatly looking forward to getting her degree and "changing the world". Nothing in her life could possibly have prepared her for this. Not much in ours has, either, unless we have been militarily trained or police trained. We want so much as parents to keep our children safe that we sometimes fail to teach them the World is full of evil people who have no empathy for others. It's an ugly side of life that we wish to spare our children. It's also often hard for our young progeny to truly believe there is evil out there. Their whole lives have been lived not expieriencing any such evil. It's the stuff of movies and television, not Real Life. But it IS real life.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2007-04-17 19:56|| 2007-04-17 19:56|| Front Page Top

#21 don't think I could live with myself if I didn't do something - I think I'd do it....and I'd probably be dead

there are worse things than dying.

Being haunted by memories of personal inaction in the face of murder and death would be among them.

My girlfriend and I were walking towards a shopping mall and witnessed a woman attempting to lower an elderly wheelchair-bound woman over a very tall curb (+16"). The wheelchair slipped from her grasp, scooted forward and keeled over backward.

The sound of the elderly woman's head striking the pavement was audible. Being trained in first aid and CPR, I rushed to the woman's side and began checking her vital signs. She was very anxious and probably felt quite exposed laying there in the middle of the parking lot's roadway. I instructed some of the bystanders to summon security and dial 9-11.

I asked her some questions to make sure she was lucid, checked her pupillary response to make sure there wasn't a severe concussion and then proceded to take her pulse. People who had gathered around were muttering how she should taken out of the roadway.

As I attempted to place my fingers on the woman's carotid artery they encountered an obstruction. I looked closely and saw that she was wearing a cervical collar.

Finally, some security people arrived and began speculating about moving the injured woamn. I instructed them in no uncertain terms not to move the patient. Absolutely none of these people bothered to notice that this woman had a pre-existing neck injury and I doubt many of them understood that moving someone with cervical or spinal injuries can kill them.

I gave security and the woman by business cards and instructed her to have her insurance agent call me. When the mall's insurer phoned some weeks later I told them that they should have had a railing or barrier around that very high curb to prevent such an accident that that they most definitely dd not want me coming into court to testify about it. I'm sure they settled promptly seeing as how I never heard from either party again.

The story's moral being that quite often, people actually can pose a greater danger by "trying to help" than by remaining clear of a situation. They certainly might have paralyzed the eldery woman if they had moved her.

None of this changes what Frank said. Inaction in the face of iminent and grave peril is far worse than death.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-17 21:04|| 2007-04-17 21:04|| Front Page Top

23:57 RD
23:57 Zenster
23:55 JosephMendiola
23:55 fingerinyoureye
23:52 RD
23:51 JosephMendiola
23:49 JosephMendiola
23:45 RD
23:45 JosephMendiola
23:45 djohn66
23:39 JosephMendiola
23:32 Zenster
23:31 JosephMendiola
23:28 Zenster
23:26 Verlaine
23:26 Verlaine
23:26 JosephMendiola
23:25 Zenster
23:24 RD
23:20 JosephMendiola
23:10 RD
23:00 Frank G
22:52 RD
22:46 Zenster