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2006-08-24 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

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Posted by Steve White 2006-08-24 00:00|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Proximity reach of new subs to Iran, good.

Germany selling GPS gear to Iran, bad.

Posted by Zenster 2006-08-24 00:19|| 2006-08-24 00:19|| Front Page Top

#2 This is an Air independent propulsion sub, and a definite upgrade of the old Dolphins.

Posted by GoldenShellback 2006-08-24 00:25|| 2006-08-24 00:25|| Front Page Top

#3 assume they were wet before the 22nd.....

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-08-24 00:28|| 2006-08-24 00:28|| Front Page Top

#4 If someone knows, please tell me: Can these subs go through Suez to get to the Arabian gulf, or do they have to go around the horn?

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-08-24 11:08|| 2006-08-24 11:08|| Front Page Top

#5 Does Israel have a naval base on the Red Sea (or whatever that body of water is that touches Israel's southern border) or does their navy sail from the Med ports?

Posted by WhitecollarRedneck 2006-08-24 12:24|| 2006-08-24 12:24|| Front Page Top

#6 Duh! I think I just answered my own stupid question. They can port them somewhere on the coast of Sinai, making Suez unnecessary.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-08-24 12:58|| 2006-08-24 12:58|| Front Page Top

#7 Egypt does not allow Israeli warships right of passage thru the canal. 4,500 Km range would all but preclude basing them anywhere but the Med. Altho I guess you could spot a few tankers in the Atlantic and Indian ocean and do a passage that way.

Posted by 6 2006-08-24 13:45|| 2006-08-24 13:45|| Front Page Top

#8 The subs are based in Haifa and there are no suitable facilities in Eilat.
The subs need to travel around the cape since Egypt has refused Suez transit.

What they need is a port. Two possibilities have been suggested:

(a) India
The subs have actually test fired their popeye turbo missiles at India's Balasore missile test range so there is actual collaboration between the two navies in missile development. It is thought that some of the Popeye launch technology will end up in Indian built submarines
However it is unlikely that Mumbai base could be used since the presence of the Israeli subs could not be hidden.
The new Karwar base (project Seabird - which comprises the Kadamba naval base, an air force station, a naval armament depot and ballistic missile silos) offers ample areas for camouflaged pens dug deep into cliff faces but is not yet ready.
India would fear adverse reaction from Iran if the subs were discovered.

(b)Eritrea
The Dahlak archipelago (belonging to Eritrea).
It has been reported that Eiritrea has granted refuelling access to the Israli navy and these islands at the end of the red sea would be useful. The Soviets built a sub base on Dahlak Kebir during the cold war so there are facilities in place.

Possibility - based at Dahlah and using the sub tenders of the Indian navy for at sea refuelling.
The Indian shipyards at Hazira are there for sub repair if some emergency arises.

Posted by john 2006-08-24 13:47|| 2006-08-24 13:47|| Front Page Top

#9 Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it makes me itchy a bit thinking that Germany could booby trap the subs in some way. When I was last in Germany, I saw alot of Israeli hate groups openly blasting them in the streets. These activities seemed well received by many which was very jaw tightening.

Posted by Jan 2006-08-24 14:15|| 2006-08-24 14:15|| Front Page Top

#10 I think you're most probably a bit paranoid ;-).

Still, this is not as far-fetched as it might seem; example in mind is cars from Renault IIRC to be exported to Israel being sabotaged by line assembly workers (most likely muslim)... to the point the direction had to take measure to insure they couldn't be recognized.
Also, the french post office found out in internal surveys about its post offices that in the Seine-Saint Denis heavily islamized department, parcels from/to Israel went missing in an alarming manner, and mail from/to the USA was often damaged (slashed with boxcutters, notably).

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-08-24 14:23|| 2006-08-24 14:23|| Front Page Top

#11 The subs have actually test fired their popeye turbo missiles

John, I've read about the test firings, are you sure it was from IDF Sub? I think maybe it was smoke, Popeye tested but not necessarily from a sub.

Posted by 6 2006-08-24 18:53|| 2006-08-24 18:53|| Front Page Top

#12 IIRC the reports said the subs fired missiles off the coast of Sri Lanka.
The only nearby facility with the optical and radar tracking systems for missile flight testing is at Balasore, India.

Wouldn't the Israelis have already tested the popeye turbo at their own facilities in the desert?
Why borrow an Indian facility unless they needed to do a subsurface launch?

Posted by john 2006-08-24 19:09|| 2006-08-24 19:09|| Front Page Top

#13 I don't know. But that's is a hell of a cruise for a shallow-water boat. Refueled 5 times maybe? Recrewed? It's the endurance issues I find strange. Hell, maybe they put the suckers on a flatbed rail car and took them to Eliat.

Posted by 6 2006-08-24 19:17|| 2006-08-24 19:17|| Front Page Top

#14 Or maybe the subs did transit the canal, on a salvage ship perhaps.

Posted by 6 2006-08-24 19:19|| 2006-08-24 19:19|| Front Page Top

#15 London Sunday Times
June 18, 2000

Israel Makes Nuclear Waves With Submarine Missile Test

By Uzi Mahnaimi and Matthew Campbell

Just as President Bill Clinton is engaged in a bitter public debate about how best to defend America from missile attacks launched by "rogue" countries such as Iran, Israel's intensely secretive military preparations against the same threat have gone a stage further.

Israeli defence sources claim the country has secretly carried out its first test launches from submarines of cruise missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. The launches last month from German-built vessels in the Indian Ocean were designed to simulate swift retaliation against a pre-emptive nuclear attack from Iran.

While Israel's generals may be jubilant at the breakthrough - the missile is said to have hit a target more than 900 miles away - the development raises the worrying prospect of an escalation in the Middle East's nuclear arms race just as peace talks have been thrown into uncertainty after the death of President Hafez al-Assad of Syria.

According to Israeli sources, the three Dolphin-class submarines will give Israel a crucial third pillar of nuclear defence to complement the country's already much-vaunted land and air ramparts. While the Israelis' intention of using the German submarines as roving nuclear launch platforms had long been suspected, few experts had expected them to develop the capability to fire submarine-based cruise missiles so soon.

Planning for a submarine-launched nuclear deterrent was accelerated after reports in the early 1990s by Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, that Iran would be capable of staging a nuclear missile attack against Israel by 2000.

The latest Israeli estimate has put that threat back by two years. But uncertainty over Iran's level of nuclear capability has not slowed Israel's drive to bolster its defences.

The Dolphin-class vessels are among the most technically advanced of their kind in the world. They are twice as big as the 23-year-old Gal-class submarines that the Israeli navy has relied on to date.

Israel ordered the submarines from Germany when it could not find an American shipyard to produce the diesel and electric-powered vessels it needed, according to Israeli sources.

In a sign of the sensitivity of the project, elite crews have been assembled to man them: the 35 officers and men aboard each vessel have been nicknamed "force 700" because of the average 700 points they scored in psychological tests devised by the Israelis. The scores are equivalent to an IQ of 130-140. Another five specially selected officers solely responsible for the warheads will be added to each vessel once the missiles are operational.

America's supply of military technology to Israel is a sensitive political issue. Last week there were calls in Washington for a cut in aid to Israel unless it cancelled the sale to China of a spy plane built with American-supplied technology. The Pentagon fears it could be used against American pilots.

Since achieving nuclear capability in 1966, Israel has kept a hawkish eye on its neighbours' fumbling steps towards acquiring weapons of mass destruction.

Its fears were dramatically illustrated in 1981 when Menachem Begin, then prime minister, sent eight F-16 jet fighters to destroy a nuclear reactor in Iraq in an episode condemned around the world as reckless military adventurism.

In 1986, Mordechai Vanunu, a former technician at the Dimona nuclear reactor who revealed secrets of Israel's programme to The Sunday Times, was kidnapped by Mossad and jailed. He remains incarcerated.

A decade later, Israeli fears appear to have proved well-founded. Washington routinely cites Iraqi and Iranian nuclear ambitions as justification for America's multi-billion-dollar missile defence system, whose deployment may be ordered by President Bill Clinton this year.

America will not look kindly on Israel's development of a remarkable new military capability at such a delicate stage in the peace process.

"This is certain to irritate the Clinton administration," said a defence analyst in Washington. "It makes it that much harder to get non-proliferation to stick in the Middle East."

Despite a good personal relationship between Clinton and Ehud Barak, the Israeli prime minister, relations between the two countries have soured in recent weeks. On top of reports of the extraordinary extent of Israeli espionage in Washington, Israel's proposed sale of the spy plane to China has outraged American congressmen.

Under a contract with the Chinese, Israel Aircraft Industries has installed a Phalcon airborne early-warning system in a Russian-made Ilyushin. China has an option for three more such planes. American officials say they fear they will pose a threat to Taiwan - as much of an American ally as Israel - and upset the military balance. Relations have been strained further by other Israeli missile tests conducted without advance warning to the Pentagon. Last month the American navy criticised Israel for test-launching a Jericho ballistic missile off its coast in April when an American warship in the vicinity momentarily thought it was under attack.

Pentagon officials said the missile landed about 40 miles from the warship. "That's pretty close for a missile that's not the most accurate," said one official, adding that this was the third time in two years that Israel had conducted "nonotice" missile tests near an American warship.

Posted by john 2006-08-24 19:28|| 2006-08-24 19:28|| Front Page Top

#16 But that's is a hell of a cruise for a shallow-water boat. Refueled 5 times maybe? Recrewed? It's the endurance issues I find strange.

Only possible with the assistance of several other countries ..

Posted by john 2006-08-24 19:42|| 2006-08-24 19:42|| Front Page Top

#17 Or maybe the subs did transit the canal

Possible.

Posted by john 2006-08-24 19:46|| 2006-08-24 19:46|| Front Page Top

#18 shadowing a cargo ship, submerged....count on it

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-08-24 20:31|| 2006-08-24 20:31|| Front Page Top

#19 surprising that an Israeli effort in self-defense my anger the Clinton administration? Not. Saint Bill was REALLY hoping for that Nobel Peace Prize - no matter the cost to the Joooos or in hosting Yasser. His pride and desire for int'l prestige overrode national security...how many times? Asshole

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-08-24 20:35|| 2006-08-24 20:35|| Front Page Top

23:56 2b
23:54 Oztralian
23:48 Hupailing Ebbuns2352
23:29 RWV
23:27 BA
23:20 Frank G
23:16 BA
23:16 Frank G
23:09 Frank G
23:01 FOTSGreg
23:01 Zenster
23:00 BA
22:56 James
22:53 Zenster
22:48 trailing wife
22:37 Fordesque
22:36 Zenster
22:28 Zenster
22:26 trailing wife
22:24 trailing wife
22:16 trailing wife
22:10 john
22:08 anonymous2u
22:07 Manolo