Article

2006-06-21 China-Japan-Koreas

China goes crazy for ideas of Sun Zi (Sun Tzu)

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by gromky 2006-06-21 04:40|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The English version of SunZi for Dummies here.

Posted by Cravish Grolunter8216 2006-06-21 08:33|| 2006-06-21 08:33|| Front Page Top

#2 Americans also have a warrior philosopher, Curtis Lemay.

Posted by ed 2006-06-21 09:21|| 2006-06-21 09:21|| Front Page Top

#3 LOL, ed! Coffee Alert!

Posted by Ulusing Cleash5738 2006-06-21 09:44|| 2006-06-21 09:44|| Front Page Top

#4 #2: Americans also have a warrior philosopher, Curtis Lemay.
Posted by: ed|| 2006-06-21 09:21 ||Comments Top||

"The Russians are not the enemy, the US Navy is the enemy." General Curtis Lemay

My personal fav.

Posted by Besoeker 2006-06-21 14:04|| 2006-06-21 14:04|| Front Page Top

#5 Largely, Sun Tzu's commentary is a compendium of facts that any mediocre military strategist and tactician should already know. The fact that he wrote down these summaries is all the fame he really ought to get.

Clausewitz's On War is a far broader and deeper treatise with some of the most profound viewpoints and commentaries ever put to print. While sometimes tedious and difficult, it beats Sun Tzu's commentaries in breadth and scope by miles.

I've always found Sun Tzu's commentaries fairly infantile in their brevity. If Grant had followed these commentaries he'd have never beaten Lee into the ground and taken his surrender at Appomatox C.H. If Eiesenhower had taken Sun Tzu's comments literally and figuratively he'd have never ever>/em> dared to launch D-Day.

No plan ever survives contact with the enemy. There are always unknowns. Sun Tzu's attempts to qualify all the maxims of warfare fail to point out this overall law first codified by Murphy.

Sometimes - historically more often than not - it has been shown that when you're in a difficult spot and don;t know what the enemy is going to do it's often a good idea to attack him anyway - directly, ruthlessly, and with malice aforethought.

Surprise, doing what the enemy doesn;t think you're able or willing to do, is often a winning strategy. While Sun Tzu does point this out, his other maxims tend to outweigh this one and get better press.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg 2006-06-21 16:44|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com] 2006-06-21 16:44|| Front Page Top

#6 Damn! Preview is my friend, preview is my friend, preview is my friend...

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg 2006-06-21 16:45|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com] 2006-06-21 16:45|| Front Page Top

#7 If Grant had followed these commentaries he'd have never beaten Lee into the ground

Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, though badly attrited and low on food and supplies, had lost little of its adeptness and enthusiasm, and Lee himself, through all but incapacitated from exhaustion stomach flu, and lacking the aid of his most able subordinates (most of whom were now dead), had lost none of his knack for outwitting battlefield opponents. At no time did anyone ever think the South could achieve an overall military victory, but many believed that it could maintain the 1861 successions and eventually become an independent, sovereign nation, gradually wearing down the North's resolve to keep the entire Union together. President Lincoln was absolutely determined not to allow that to happen. He was wholly committed to preserving the Union and thus prosecuting the war to its conclusion. Lee chose honorable surrender as opposed to a guerrilla was, which many of his subordinate generals strongly encouraged. "Beaten into the ground" the Army of Northern Virginia was not.

Posted by Besoeker 2006-06-21 17:00|| 2006-06-21 17:00|| Front Page Top

#8 The best element of Sun Tzu is that he formalized two concepts: the military unit organization, and the method of planning operations.

Every modern military on the planet uses both concepts. The method of planning consists of only six elements, but if you plan for those six, MOST of your typical planning is done:

The overall situation
The mission
Execution of the mission
Logistical support of the mission
The command structure and communications
Deception and obscuration of enemy intelligence

Though there is considerable variation in emphasis with this method of planning, well-trained combat officers in modern armies are practiced in using this outline for planning for tasks from the mundane to the serious. Optimally, it will be second nature to them.

As an outline, it expands or contracts depending on the size of the unit. Even the D-Day invasion, who operations plan was alleged to stand five feet tall, was just extrapolated from these six paragraphs.

Of course, this philosophy has a widely different interpretation when embraced by civilians. Some years ago, it was all the rage on Wall Street, along with the more recently discovered writings of one of Sun Tzu's disciples, Sun Pin, along with such tripe as "The leadership skills of Ghengis Khan."

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-06-21 17:15|| 2006-06-21 17:15|| Front Page Top

#9 Sorry Besoeker, that's just plain wrong.

By the time Lee had run to Five Forks, his army had indeed been beaten into the ground. Herded back to Richmond and Petersburg, then surrounded and put into siege, with dwindling supplies, disease setting in, and exhaustion through the ranks, there was no way Lee could effect his extraction from Richmond and move south.

In the strategic sense the ANV had been beaten as well. It could no longer perform its primary task: keep the Union out of Central Virginia, and keep the capital of the Confederacy safe from attack.

The ANV was beaten. Lee's final act of genius and compassion was to recognize that.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2006-06-21 17:57|| 2006-06-21 17:57|| Front Page Top

#10 Besoeker: Lee chose honorable surrender as opposed to a guerrilla was, which many of his subordinate generals strongly encouraged. "Beaten into the ground" the Army of Northern Virginia was not.

Under the rules of engagement of the day, Lee was beaten. Sherman burned Atlanta - and I suspect he was willing to do the same to any town that supported the rebels. Dehousing works - it puts the enemy's base of support in a situation where they can barely feed themselves, let alone feed the enemy. In fact, the idea is to avoid killing the enemy's base (as long as they don't offer armed resistance, otherwise, it's maneuver by fire), so that they have more mouths to feed, with ruins for housing, and burned farmlands for forage. Under the rules of the day, Lee was finished. And he knew it, which is why he surrendered, to avoid merely delaying the inevitable at a massive cost in Southern lives and livelihoods.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2006-06-21 21:26|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2006-06-21 21:26|| Front Page Top

#11 Moose: Of course, this philosophy has a widely different interpretation when embraced by civilians. Some years ago, it was all the rage on Wall Street, along with the more recently discovered writings of one of Sun Tzu's disciples, Sun Pin, along with such tripe as "The leadership skills of Ghengis Khan."

In war, you can physically eliminate your adversary. In the business world (unless you consider La Cosa Nostra a business), you cannot. Logistics doesn't matter to law firms. The list goes on and on. Overall, I think Machavelli's The Prince is a better book for civilians.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2006-06-21 21:37|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2006-06-21 21:37|| Front Page Top

15:37 Old Patriot
23:53 Janos Hunyadi
23:48 crazyhorse
23:42 RD
23:28 RD
23:17 Frank G
23:16 Monsieur Moonbat
23:10 trailing wife
23:06 RD
23:06 Janos Hunyadi
22:55 RJB in JC MO
22:51 RJB in JC MO
22:46 Mark Z
22:44 trailing wife
22:38 badanov
22:20 trailing wife
22:16 Slineger Flaique8971
22:09 Chuck Simmins
22:00 Captain America
21:54 Chuck Simmins
21:49 Captain America
21:48 anymouse
21:47 Al Gore
21:38 Frank G