Article

2006-05-22 Home Front: WoT

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by DanNY 2006-05-22 09:04|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Brief and to the point, Danny. Well said. The bottom line is that we are fighting a global army that does not belong to any state. We need to treat them as such.

There is, in my opinion, a common misconception that we are fighting Muslims. While it's true that they fight under the banner of Islam, the enemy we fight is a global enemy consisting of communists, anti-Americans of many stripes, liberal elites using our own political system by enacting speech codes and laws that undermine our freedoms, politicians selling us out for votes and angry losers in need of a hateful cause.

Many of our enemies are our neighbors next door. And though they are more often than not, intelligent, nice, well meaning people, - the Islamists would have been defeated long ago if it were not for the enabling of our enemies from within. Many of these people are well meaning - not really doing much but providing support from their silence or foolish adherence to a belief system that prevents us from doing anything to take meaningful action.

But in the end, it will be these kind but foolish neighbors and family members, led by a destructive belief system, that will be our own undoing. If the huns are at the gates - it is these fools who are inviting them in.

These people can't be nuked, or simply eliminated. But instead the same factors that you listed need to be applied to them as well - eliminating the financing, exposing their alliances, and eliminating the "religious seeds" of their belief system of western self-hate and blame.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 12:26|| 2006-05-22 12:26|| Front Page Top

#2 I'm gonna go next door and off the Joneses. They're up to no good and I won't stand for it.

Unstated: Law Enforcement Model - or what?

Posted by random styling 2006-05-22 12:33|| 2006-05-22 12:33|| Front Page Top

#3 2nd nice op piece from you.
Level headed, and most important, more likely to be applied than a "nukem all" apocalypse scenario I cannot see at all (we're not that type anymore, except if there really something HUGE that "shifts the paradigm", like Europe undergoing an obviously muslim motivated civil war with interventions by muslim neighbors, or a nuke in NYC).

Suits me, and the 2b remark about the global ennemy is quite on spot too, I think.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-05-22 12:35|| 2006-05-22 12:35|| Front Page Top

#4 But in the end, it will be these kind but foolish neighbors and family members, led by a destructive belief system, that will be our own undoing. If the huns are at the gates - it is these fools who are inviting them in.

That destructive belief system is a luxury afforded them by the relative safety of the societies in which they live. Without regular exposure to those that would destroy them and their way of life they have no incentive to disabuse themselves of their flawed notions. Sad though it is that suggests a direction this conflict must take before it can be truly resolved.

Posted by AzCat 2006-05-22 12:43|| 2006-05-22 12:43|| Front Page Top

#5 I'm gonna go next door and off the Joneses.

It's not about offing the joneses than it is about educating them and undoing the framework that is the foundation of their beliefs. Much like we say we need to correct the madrassas, we need to do the same for the hollowed halls of pc liberalism.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 12:58|| 2006-05-22 12:58|| Front Page Top

#6 2b - You've come a long way. :) That was a tease and you didn't let it get to you. Good.

AzCat just (surprisingly) shied away from saying CW, but you said it in another thread - and I applaud you for it.

Indeed, the most dangerous enemy lies within. No external force can actually threaten us - except perhaps economically. But from within we can be brought down because we haven't yet admitted that the same things which make us strong also make us vulnerable.

The very freedoms we fight for are turned against us in every way imaginable, the system and our institutions subverted and suborned. This will be a far tougher sell than knocking off the insane Mullahs.

How will we do it? How will we convince the Joneses to stop being willfully stupid? As AzCat said, "they have no incentive to disabuse themselves of their flawed notions". So true.

I expect a small movement will arise of its own accord when some new incredible outrage is sanctioned by the cabal of those who seek to undermine and destroy America. The Kelo decision is a fair enough example. Intuitively, 90% of Americans know it's wrong and insane. From there it will grow. Pray that there is another Washington, or at least a Simcox, among the leaders to keep it focused.

DanNY - Eliminate. Powerful word. Please clarify if you're inclined. Tons of questions... Examples: What model(s) will we use to deal internally and externally? Law Enforcement is going to fail - for the reasons 2b and I accept - subversion of the system by internal enemies. Or do you agree some internal "cleansing" must take place first?

Externally I think we'll be on our own. The Republic of Eastern Arabia could be matched by a Western Republic of Persia - as that strip of oil resources extends north through Kuwait all the way into the Caspian. Ready to do this? Resources?

I have no problem with it, just asking.

Note to you both: Dotcom is applauding you long and loud somewhere.

Posted by random styling 2006-05-22 13:19|| 2006-05-22 13:19|| Front Page Top

#7 I'm thinking the first step is to destroy our enemy, the MSM. Once we can replace them with factual reports, we can focus our society on the vial nature of Islam. We have seen it and so will the Joneses. Then, outlaw the practice of Islam in America. Jail the men, and free the women and children. For those too far gone, detention centers. Then, if time has not run out, save Europe.
One thing is for sure, we can talk until we're blue in the face, but if we take action, then some will join us, and some will attempt to block us. The latter will provide exposure, which is good. We must never forget that we act for America and Americans. Patriotism is a strong motivator.

Posted by wxjames 2006-05-22 13:35|| 2006-05-22 13:35|| Front Page Top

#8 A mosque is anywhere, including a living room. Think about the magnitude of the project you contemplate when you say "razed to the ground": you've got to supervise a billion people, probably for at least half a century or so until the teachers die out. And even then, thanks to the inevitable political compromises, Muhammadanism wouldn't be completely gone. Notice how it and Greek Orthodoxy popped back up when the USSR went down.

Posted by James">James 2006-05-22 13:46|| http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]">[http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com] 2006-05-22 13:46|| Front Page Top

#9 taking away the oil reserves from all of the Middle East. This would require a raw implementation of power to capture and hold all oil producing real estate in the region.

Check out a map, identify how many miles of pipeline exist and how many major drilling and shipping facilities. Then look at how vulnerable the much smaller infrastructure in Iraq is and how often it has been sabotaged.

Then do the math re: numbers of soldiers, backed up say by armed UAVs, would be needed to hold that infrastructure AND KEEP IT FUNCTIONING, without a collapse of the global economy.

Not gonna happen, I don't think. It's not a bad idea, but not practical -- especially if we're talking US and maybe Aussie troops alone. and for give me, but apart from the Brits, who else would even conceivably sign on?

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 13:46|| 2006-05-22 13:46|| Front Page Top

#10 ...but apart from the Brits, who else would even conceivably sign on?

Sounds like a project for a hypothetical American Foreign Legion. Pay them via oil revenues from the seized fields and it'll have the additional positive effect of removing from our books the oil supply security subsidy for which American taxpayers currently foot the bill. The sheer size of the effort might make it unworkable though.

Posted by AzCat 2006-05-22 14:09|| 2006-05-22 14:09|| Front Page Top

#11 ...but apart from the Brits, who else would even conceivably sign on?

Actually, it'd just be you and the fly-over states. And only that portion of the US military that goes over to your side.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 14:16|| 2006-05-22 14:16|| Front Page Top

#12 Let's hope we don't have to find out, yes? Because if it comes to that you might be surprised.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 14:19|| 2006-05-22 14:19|| Front Page Top

#13 Is Mr. Ebbereth Jeans9622, in addition to taking a pot shot at the dreaded and loathed middle America, somehow threatening civil war or something? If so, I'd go with the side which has the demography and the guns... and that ain't his.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-05-22 14:30|| 2006-05-22 14:30|| Front Page Top

#14 Water is the key to life in the mideast.
Pollute it is one way.
Turn it off another.
Put prozac in it a third.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-22 15:14|| 2006-05-22 15:14|| Front Page Top

#15 Whatever his comment means, Mr. EJ is coming to us via the same anonomyzing server as yesterday's commenter. Same tone and substance, too.

Silly person.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 15:27|| 2006-05-22 15:27|| Front Page Top

#16 Dear anonymous5089, threatening civil war is a favorite exercise of some of the regulars here. Go ahead and ask them. I wasn't the first to come up with that notion.

As to your demography question, I will suggest that the next civil war in the US won't be a solely domestic affair; you'd have pissed off Mexicans, Castro (if he's still alive, which could very well be), Chavez, other latin American nutcases, Al-Qaeda and their sponsors the Saudis, China most probably (but ever so discreetly), and Russia all too happy to make money supplying AK47s and RPGs.
Then there's the US officer corps. If it's a repeat of Civil War 1, over 50% will go to one side (stay on one side is more appropriate, as it would not be the Democrats who start the festivities.)

Let's hope we don't have to find out, yes?

Interesting. I had to pause there for a moment. What's the difference between finding out, and going down the path you're hypothesizing about? It will get us the same outcome in the end, mutually assured destruction. Either way, you will have left a mess for your daughter.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 15:28|| 2006-05-22 15:28|| Front Page Top

#17 That destructive belief system is a luxury afforded them by the relative safety of the societies in which they live. Without regular exposure to those that would destroy them and their way of life they have no incentive to disabuse themselves of their flawed notions. Sad though it is that suggests a direction this conflict must take before it can be truly resolved.

Ya gotta simplify that line....

Usually I just agree that peace, love universal harmony and good business are my goals too.
Then I ask: " So... How close to YOU PERSONALLY does something have to blow up before you get it ?"

Posted by Gene the Moron 2006-05-22 15:29|| 2006-05-22 15:29|| Front Page Top

#18 Silly person.

Maybe.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 15:31|| 2006-05-22 15:31|| Front Page Top

#19 Sad though it is that suggests a direction this conflict must take before it can be truly resolved.

See what I mean, anonymous5089? Or did that fly past you?

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 15:35|| 2006-05-22 15:35|| Front Page Top

#20 Or how about this gem (comment #6):

Or do you agree some internal "cleansing" must take place first?

Need further explanation of what he meant by that, anonymous5089?

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 15:41|| 2006-05-22 15:41|| Front Page Top

#21 It didn't fly past me. Doesn't mean I agree with the poster of that comment though. You do seem to conflate differing opinions, EJ. And you continue to fail to acknowledge that many of those who do foresee a need - or the desireability, in some cases - for a serious confrontation with large numbers of Muslims come to that conclusion reluctantly and without joy.

That matters, you know ....

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 15:42|| 2006-05-22 15:42|| Front Page Top

#22 Keep in mind anonymous5089, these people have already written you off. Think about it carefully.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 15:43|| 2006-05-22 15:43|| Front Page Top

#23 Oh, piffle. You know perfectly well that isn't true - you are playing rhetoric games here, sir or madam.

And on the off chance you ARE that dense, I'm quite confident our anonymous5089 isn't.

Bah. Come back when you are serious about discussing which of the hard options facing us should be chosen and why.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 15:45|| 2006-05-22 15:45|| Front Page Top

#24 Then, outlaw the practice of Islam in America. Jail the men, and free the women and children.

Wouldnt this open a Pandoras Box with the next logical step the outlaw of additional if not all religious practice? This makes me uneasy. I would hope that I am not alone in saying this.

Posted by bool 2006-05-22 15:52|| 2006-05-22 15:52|| Front Page Top

#25 Excellent post Dan!

1. To eliminate the financing we must stop Iran. This can be done by air strike or SF teams. We must make the interest of that government more directed on survival than the spread of Islamic fascism. Second is the Soddies. We must individually strike, kill, the folks financing this and seize their assets.

2. Release the teams to eliminate the Mullas that are heading terrorist cells and inciting hate.

3. I think this block will take care of itself as they realize peaceful coexistence means survival. When the Mullas that insite hate are gone, the rest will follow in a peaceful manner.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-05-22 15:52|| 2006-05-22 15:52|| Front Page Top

#26 I'm guessing madam. Dear anonymous5089, threatening civil war is a favorite exercise of some of the regulars here. Go ahead and ask them. I wasn't the first to come up with that notion

sounds like a school marm.

In case you haven't noticed - it's not 5089 that's been written off, but people like you.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 15:52|| 2006-05-22 15:52|| Front Page Top

#27 Piffle! I think this should replace Troll, works as a noun and a verb. Ltop this really was right on time! LOL

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-05-22 15:58|| 2006-05-22 15:58|| Front Page Top

#28 bool, I have the same sort of concern you have.

One place to start at home is the hate preaching, incenting to violence, that sort of thing which is happening, often only in the Arabic side, in mosques in this country.

We know it's going on here in the US with Saudi funding. I'm pretty libertarian in my tendencies so I get antsy about laws / government agencies that can easily crack down on beliefs.

Incitement is another matter, however. And sunlight is quite a useful disinfectant. Heavily publicizing what is being preached, here and abroad, would be eye-opening for many. If that were to stiffen spines so that a clear show of resolve is made, it might - might - obviate the need for more direct confrontation.

As I've said many times over, it is my deep hope that such a need can be avoided. But I am not willing to categorically rule it out if it comes to that.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 16:00|| 2006-05-22 16:00|| Front Page Top

#29 wxjames pointed out the problem: the MSM won't report it straight, so the sunlight doesn't get there unless, by some twist, it fits the agenda. Such as something they can spin to blame on Bush.

EJ is here for therapy. Self esteem is a delicate thing.

Posted by random styling 2006-05-22 16:04|| 2006-05-22 16:04|| Front Page Top

#30 I think we need to start enforcing laws that deal with incitment to murder and treason. It's going to happen - no society can tolerate traitors who threaten their security. It's just a matter of if we are going to take measured steps or let things go too far - forcing people to take security into their own hands.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 16:07|| 2006-05-22 16:07|| Front Page Top

#31 Doesn't mean I agree with the poster of that comment though.

Wouldn't hurt to explicitly state that once in a while. Otherwise your silence may be interpreted in many different ways. Other than that, I've noticed you spend a heck of alot of effort defending and making up excuses for such comments. For example:

And you continue to fail to acknowledge that many of those who do foresee a need - or the desireability, in some cases - for a serious confrontation with large numbers of Muslims come to that conclusion reluctantly and without joy.

Come back when you are serious about discussing which of the hard options facing us should be chosen and why.

I'm astounded (but not really surprised anymore) that you think you are already at this juncture. What is happening at your neck-of-the-woods that would necessitate a confrontation with a large group of Muslims? (Confrontation is rather vague. It was extermination that I had a problem with.) Any suicide bombers in Trenton, New Jersey? Beheadings in Boston? Whatever Muslim depravity you care to read about is still only happening on a large scale in places where the literacy rate is usually below 50%. And please don't mention Europe as a counterexample. You like to paint with a broader brush than you actually have (there's a better aphorism for this but it doesn't translate well).

Afghanistan was the proper response to 9/11 and if you hadn't gotten sidetracked by Iraq, you would have been much further along.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 16:14|| 2006-05-22 16:14|| Front Page Top

#32 It's going to happen - no society can tolerate traitors who threaten their security.

And in your view that would include me. So I was right yesterday. I'm not that far behind Muslims.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 16:17|| 2006-05-22 16:17|| Front Page Top

#33 Oh so the muslims are only killing the stupid people in other countries, so we Americans should just shrug how typical Euro.

Posted by djohn66 2006-05-22 16:28|| 2006-05-22 16:28|| Front Page Top

#34 Wouldn't hurt to explicitly state that once in a while

Actually, it wouldn't hurt for you to read a bit more carefully, and over a longer period of time. Contextualization is all, dear.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 16:29|| 2006-05-22 16:29|| Front Page Top

#35 Why - no. I don't think you are behind the Muslims - I think you are right there with them. You belong to a belief system that elevates your sense of superiority by finding others to blame. Ironically it usually means that you point fingers at white, middle class Christians - those ignorant peasants who aren't as cultured and refined as you - and of course ~~jews~~ zionists. You are all about creating a ~~caliphate~~ nanny state where ~~God~~ the government will take care of you. You're a coward - willing to bravely stand up for anything that doesn't result in actual danger to yourself. A real rebel - as long as you don't get hurt.

I'm sure you are nice person - despite the fact that you write probably just like you talk - down your nose.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 16:31|| 2006-05-22 16:31|| Front Page Top

#36 Oh so the muslims are only killing the stupid people in other countries so we Americans should just shrug

Well no, you could also start rounding up Muslims in the US as a response to killing that goes on half-way around the globe. Or use neutron bombs, as one person suggested yesterday. That's the kind of over-reaction you seem to prefer.

it wouldn't hurt for you to read a bit more carefully,

And now who's playing the rhetoric games?

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 16:41|| 2006-05-22 16:41|| Front Page Top

#37 I don't think you are behind the Muslims - I think you are right there with them.

My, my, my. Thanks for clarifying that and many more things.

BTW, nice effort yesterday on the genocide thread. What happened today? Didn't want to give the appearance of being against your buddies here? You brave person you.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 16:47|| 2006-05-22 16:47|| Front Page Top

#38 Recedite, plebes! Gero rem imperialem!

LOL.

Posted by random styling 2006-05-22 16:48|| 2006-05-22 16:48|| Front Page Top

#39 When did I say nuke them, don't attribute something to me I didn't say and one Beslan over here in America and yes, you bet muslims will be rounded up.
I did say the is going to be a war that kills alot of people because people like you excuse the muslims for their atrocities

Posted by djohn66 2006-05-22 16:52|| 2006-05-22 16:52|| Front Page Top

#40 Your welcome. I've been consistent in my position since the beginning. The biggest problem we face is lemmings like you. So proud as you jump off the cliff. I'm assuming you are a liberal - a proud member of a failed 20th century ideology.

Lots of good posters here. You bore me.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 16:55|| 2006-05-22 16:55|| Front Page Top

#41 I did say the is going to be a war that kills alot of people because people like you excuse the muslims for their atrocities

This is getting better and better. I'll take lotp's advice and mention that surely you don't mean that all Muslims commit atrocities. Or do you? This can get so confusing at times.

Lots of good posters here. You bore me.

And to the contrary, you fascinate me. In fact, I've learned much more over these two days that I could ever have hoped for. Certainly it clarified some things for me. And I have you to thank for that.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 17:03|| 2006-05-22 17:03|| Front Page Top

#42 Watch out fellas: One of our intellectual betters are posting. be respectful.

Posted by badanov 2006-05-22 17:04|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org] 2006-05-22 17:04|| Front Page Top

#43 Alright Anom since you know who all the good muslims are and we don't maybe you can go around picking out all the bad ones out and the last estimate that about 10 percent of 1 billion so 10 million muslims that way only the bad ones die.

Posted by djohn66 2006-05-22 17:07|| 2006-05-22 17:07|| Front Page Top

#44 And now who's playing the rhetoric games?

Not I. I am merely pointing out that you seem to attempt to interpret selected comments here without either acknowledging differences of opinion among those you oppose or having any sense of the characteristic stances of regular posters, when irony or exaggeration is being used intentionally or, in fact, any other aspect of the semiotics of posts.

Context, EJ, context. Regulars here read my comments in the context of a number of years of regular posts. You on the other hand miss even statements made openly in the last two days.

Context in another way, as well. It is interesting to see just how detached you have tried to make the discussion from the atrocities to which others here have been responding with anger and heat. Regulars at Rantburg know, to our dismay and growing rage, that there is a serious ethnic cleansing going on against Buddhists, by Muslims, in the southern 3 provinces of Thailand. They know that ill-paid, inoffensive, gentle Buddhist elementary school teachers have been killed in increasing numbers, in some cases by brutal and excruciatingly painful decapitation.

Regulars at Rantburg remember - if many others would prefer not to know - the young schoolgirls in Indonesia who were also killed last year, by decapitation while alive, for the horrid offense of being Christians, being female and being on their way to learn to read, write and do arithmetic. They know of similar atrocities being perpetrated in the name of Islam in Pakistan, in Africa, in Iraq.

They know too, of the rapidly accelerating practice of gangrapes of non-Muslim women and girls in the banlieus of France, in Marmo, in Copenhagen, in Norway, by young men taught, in the name of Islam, to regard all non-Muslims as filth, as pigs and dogs if they have a religion, as whores if they are female.

How comforting, how ... insulating ... it must be to view such actions - which are being replicated in dozens of countries around the world, encouraged by prominent Muslim preachers and against which few if any Muslim voices have been raised, or with any effectiveness - from the sterile tower of detached theorizing.

Your amused tone of condescension signals all anyone needs to know about your shallowness and emptiness of heart.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 17:08|| 2006-05-22 17:08|| Front Page Top

#45 "...amused tone of condescension..."

I think it's called the "Patented Liberal Sneer," and as affectations go, it's pretty lame.

We've seen it before, usually in people who are too cowardly to simply state their views forthrightly and be done with it-- like with this supercilious little prick.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-05-22 17:34|| 2006-05-22 17:34|| Front Page Top

#46 Whether the basis of the opinions here are the laundry list of anecdotal examples of Muslim aggression against all other cultures or the astonishing popularity of terrorists, terrorist organizations, and terrorist acts throughout the Muslim world I think you'll find that most who see the coming clash of civilizations see exactly that, a probable outcome given current events and attitudes throughout the Muslim world and where the Muslim world interacts with others.

For my part the issue stems from my belief that we cannot change Islam but rather must accept it on its own terms which, today and for centuries past, have been, "Submit or die." Barring the most astoundingly rapid spontaneous shift in cultural attitudes in the history of mankind I also believe we will eventually find ourselves embroiled in a shooting war with the entire Muslim world. I would like very much to believe that Islam can and will rapidly morph into a peaceful tolerant movement that can coexist with other cultures but given its history that's not the way to bet.

Posted by AzCat 2006-05-22 17:45|| 2006-05-22 17:45|| Front Page Top

#47 Gotta junp in here.....

surely you don't mean that all Muslims commit atrocities. Or do you? This can get so confusing at times.

If course not all commit them - but the majority of them condone them with their silence. I would also say that the majority of the media also condones them with their silence.

When the IRA tossed a bomb at a catholic girls school a few years ago just about every christian denounced it as a henious act. When the muslims of Serbia were being rounded up and slaughtered we (the west) stepped in and stopped it by force of arms.

When muslims take over a school in Russia and gang-rape children and bayonett babies - nonthing is said. The media calls them 'hostage-takers' and refuses to even mention the rapes and murders - never mind that they were - to a person - Muslim extreamists. For years arab muslims have been terrorising, murdering, and commiting gang-rapes in Dafur (against black muslims - for the crime of being black) and the U.N. spends years gazing at its navel and wondering if its genocide - and MSM worries about what happened to a blonde bimbo in Aruba.

I'm sorry but if an ignorant villager in Dafur, or a schoolgirl in Indonesia, or a catholic schoolgirl in Ireland or a little boy in Beslin or a schoolteacher in Thailand or some poor smuck in Iraq or a rape-victim in Iran is killed or harmed *I* care about it. I don't judge people by their 'social standings' or their GPA or what school they attended or if they are black or white or brown or pink or yellow with green pokadots. I do however judge them by their character and their acts.

Yes - that sounds kind of stupid and tripe. So what?

Posted by CrazyFool 2006-05-22 17:48|| 2006-05-22 17:48|| Front Page Top

#48 --And in your view that would include me. So I was right yesterday. I'm not that far behind Muslims.--

Once again, just goes to show that fascism is always descending on America but seems to land in Europe. Or flattering yourself.

The problem is, they're happy w/it whether it be communism or fascism, just so long as we're proved wrong.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 17:59|| 2006-05-22 17:59|| Front Page Top

#49 "I would like very much to believe that Islam can and will rapidly morph into a peaceful tolerant movement that can coexist with other cultures but given its history that's not the way to bet."

Until the last couple of months my attitude was, "let's see if what we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan makes a difference."

But frankly, it doesn't look very much like it has had any positive effect at all-- and I would have expected to see one by now. Instead, it looks more like the entire ummah is building up a head of steam to go off on a rip-roaring jihad toot of millenial proportions.

Slaughtering schoolteachers in Thailand. Calling for the beheading of cartoonists. Suicide bombings all over the place-- still. Ahmamadnutjob threatening to annihilate Israel. And America and Britain still too timid to expell even those plainly bent on mayhem.

Where will it lead? I shudder.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-05-22 18:05|| 2006-05-22 18:05|| Front Page Top

#50 So far as I can figure, EJ thinks that Afghanistan was the proper response to 9/11 and that nothing more should be done to eliminate terrorism. I can only assume this because It does not say anything about doing anything. All it does is attempt to pick everyone else apart.

EJ I have been reading your posts and have concluded that you are an intelligent person who is ignorant because you refuse to give due consideration to the facts at hand.

You are afraid to face them, because you lack the will to even suggest that something should be done that isn't teaching or hugging.

You EJ, are a loser. You were born a loser to a loser family in a loser nation. As a youth it was not your fault, but it has long past time to take responsibilty. You are now a loser by your own choice. Wake up and die right. Loser.

Posted by Mike N. 2006-05-22 18:08|| 2006-05-22 18:08|| Front Page Top

#51 Not I.

Oh yes you, and you do it very well. I'll give you that.

when irony or exaggeration is being used intentionally

Oh so that's all that was? Exaggeration? My bad then.

There's no requirement on my part, or any other reader who walks in for the first time, to know the histories, experiences, credentials, etc of all the people who post here, whether they've been commenting for decades, or five minutes. I go by what is said at the given moment. And besides, I don't believe context would change anything in this matter. You seem to believe that it would somehow mitigate such statements, when that is not so. Not in this serious matter anyway. A well-meaning Muslim reading this would hardly care about context.

It is interesting to see just how detached you have tried to make the discussion from the atrocities to which others here have been responding with anger and heat.

I find it equally interesting that you seem to able to make the leap from the one or few, to the many, and you seem equally at ease with defending comments that place blame on all Muslims. That's a notion I am not comfortable with, because as it has been made clear here many times, I might be in the crosshairs as well.
I chose to narrow my focus to the over-the-top reaction (which I think it is) of some of the comments here. I am not oblivious to the atrocities that go on every day all over the planet. My response to them is much more tempered however.

encouraged by prominent Muslim preachers and against which few if any Muslim voices have been raised, or with any effectiveness

Most likely true. But I hope this isn't some new standard you are introducing - to be effective - in an attempt to lower the threshold for yourself.

Your amused tone of condescension signals all anyone needs to know about your shallowness and emptiness of heart.

You are equally adept at this condescension thing, see comment #23. You and others hold no moral high ground here. As to the emptiness of heart, I'll leave that to a more objective judge.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 18:12|| 2006-05-22 18:12|| Front Page Top

#52 If you want to know what EJ thinks, just turn on the news, pick up an issue of Time or NYT or any other outlet of popular culture and they will all tell you exactly what she thinks....word for word.

That's why I love rantburg. Orignal thought from orignal people rather than the constant mind crushingly boring droning repetition of unoriginal thought.

Azcat, you might as well have said, "For my part the issue stems from my belief that we cannot change liberalism but rather must accept it on its own terms which, today and for centuries past, have been, "Submit or die."

It's all one in the same. Submit to one means - you submit - to the other it means I'll submit. Kind of a kinky S&M game for dysfuntional losers.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 18:23|| 2006-05-22 18:23|| Front Page Top

#53 That's the rub, isn't it? Almost 5 years and we're still waiting for the well-meaning muslims to make a difference.

The proof will be Europe's pudding in about 25 years or less.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 18:23|| 2006-05-22 18:23|| Front Page Top

#54 #47 Bingo, Crazy Fool. EJ seems to have a problem with any moral ground, high or low. Non judgementalism at it's best, rationalising at its worst.

Posted by Inspector Clueso 2006-05-22 18:26|| 2006-05-22 18:26|| Front Page Top

#55 I don't mind an occasional descending voice, but I have to wonder whether these leftists have ever viewed the site 'thereligionofpeace.com' or do they simply believe 'all that's fit to print' in the MSM ? I good mind could be lost, poisoned into useless jello digesting too much MSM.
When the real fighting starts, we will have to house our muslim captives with our lefties. It will be a cleansing fer sure.

Posted by wxjames 2006-05-22 18:27|| 2006-05-22 18:27|| Front Page Top

#56 You just don't get us, do you?

If our hearts were empty, there'd be smoking holes where there's now Afghanistan's 1st escalator and Iraq's hope.

I understand they just had a trade fair there which was successful.

One would think since Iraq's (supposedly) going to hell in a handbasket, they wouldn't come, but they did.

You don't get us, but we do get you. Always did, which is why our ancestors chose to face horrible voyages, unknown wilderness, coyote, bear, snake, extreme temperatures, etc. instead of staying among civilization.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 18:28|| 2006-05-22 18:28|| Front Page Top

#57 Push comes to shove, you going to go quietly or scratch your surface and do what you guys do best?

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 18:31|| 2006-05-22 18:31|| Front Page Top

#58 I may part company with you there 2b. I do still believe that the majority of the political left is well-intentioned, ignorant, misguided, foolish, short-sighted, and a host of other things but generally well-meaning.

The difference between Islam and the political left is that as rhetoric turns to violence and violence escalates and spreads most on the political left will eventually put down their utopian fantasies and deal with the hard realities of the moment, in other words most on the left can change their perspective. Centuries of history call into doubt Islam's ability to do likewise.

Posted by AzCat 2006-05-22 18:34|| 2006-05-22 18:34|| Front Page Top

#59 My hope too, AzCat, re: the left.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 18:40|| 2006-05-22 18:40|| Front Page Top

#60 OT - but not for our European friend, Fjordman's got a very interesting piece up at Gates of Vienna.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 18:40|| 2006-05-22 18:40|| Front Page Top

#61 I think the left will come around to, but they always seem to wait till the last minute and unfortunately alot of people die in the process.

Posted by djohn66 2006-05-22 18:41|| 2006-05-22 18:41|| Front Page Top

#62 EJ thinks that Afghanistan was the proper response to 9/11 and that nothing more should be done to eliminate terrorism.

Terror should be fought and terrorists should be hunted down.

I can only assume this because It does not say anything about doing anything.

There's no requirement on my part to provide specific solutions. There are far more intelligent people than me who should be tasked with that job. However I don't have to sit idly by, or defend solutions (whether by silence or not) that are obviously asinine, not to mention revolting to the core of my being.
Secondly, and more to the point, I deeply believe that we are not yet at the juncture where we have to defend ourselves by going on the offensive against all Muslims. And going against all Muslims is what you are talking about here, isn't it?

I have been reading your posts and have concluded that you are an intelligent person who is ignorant

Well which is it? Pick one or the other.

You are afraid to face them, because you lack the will to even suggest that something should be done that isn't teaching or hugging.

I am a Christian, Roman Catholic specifically, who believes in giving people the benefit of the doubt. All people. I have far too many logs stuck in my eye to start holding others to a higher standard. I am not a pacifist however, and firmly believe in measured intervention when injustices exist in this world.

You EJ, are a loser....Wake up and die right. Loser.

Whether or not I am a loser remains to be seen. It's pretty haughty of you to make that assumption. As a parting shot, let me remind you that you could end up winning every battle and still lose the war. Cheers.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 18:47|| 2006-05-22 18:47|| Front Page Top

#63 I think the left will come around to, but they always seem to wait till the last minute and unfortunately alot of people die in the process.

I'm not so certain that waiting until late in the game to employ overwhelming force isn't one of the characteristics that separates civilization from barbarism.

Posted by AzCat 2006-05-22 18:54|| 2006-05-22 18:54|| Front Page Top

#64 --I am a Christian, Roman Catholic specifically, who believes in giving people the benefit of the doubt.--

Exactly how long are you willing to give people the benefit of the doubt?

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 18:59|| 2006-05-22 18:59|| Front Page Top

#65 He's willing to wait until the last dead American. Quite charitable of him.

Posted by ed 2006-05-22 19:01|| 2006-05-22 19:01|| Front Page Top

#66 -- As a parting shot, let me remind you that you could end up winning every battle and still lose the war. --

Like we have been in Europe for the past 230-odd years?

It's not a coincidence frogistan is America's oldest enemy - before we were even America.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 19:01|| 2006-05-22 19:01|| Front Page Top

#67 Most Americans who watched #175(?) hit the South Tower knew what end game was.

What you take issue w/is it's being discussed out loud - which is an American trait.

What you should really take issue w/is that the other side has done nothing to stop it and the EUSSR is helping it along.

Europe has had numerous opportunities from Charles Martel on to end it, but you didn't - you only stopped it for awhile.

Once again, we have to fix your mistakes which we've been doing a lot these past 100 years at great cost to everyone.

I don't know if you truly appreciate how tired we're getting of fixing your mistakes. And some are giving serious consideration whether or not we should continue.

But first, once again, Europe can show us the right way on how to fix them. And again there'll be clean up in Aisle 3.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 19:21|| 2006-05-22 19:21|| Front Page Top

#68 Arrogance exemplified.

Posted by Spomoting Whomble3271 2006-05-22 19:59|| 2006-05-22 19:59|| Front Page Top

#69 More like honesty exemplified.

Posted by AzCat 2006-05-22 20:05|| 2006-05-22 20:05|| Front Page Top

#70 Our new commenter SW3271 just happens to use the same anonymizing server in Germany as our friend EJ9622.

Total coincidence, I'm sure.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 20:13|| 2006-05-22 20:13|| Front Page Top

#71 No, just history.

That doesn't make me arrogant, it makes me correct.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 20:15|| 2006-05-22 20:15|| Front Page Top

#72 We're just telling you this for your own good.

As many Europeans have told us for a long time. What Europeans might not be used to is (finally) being on the receiving end.

After all, we were late to WWI and WWII, as many Europeans (still) remind us.

We're 25 years late to islamofascism and we're late responding to you nattering nabobs.

You keep wanting to handle it, we keep letting you and - oops, now there's a mess in Aisle 4.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 20:21|| 2006-05-22 20:21|| Front Page Top

#73 Geez, even Benedict was becoming more activist before becoming Pope.

I'm not Catholic and even I know that.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 20:23|| 2006-05-22 20:23|| Front Page Top

#74 Better correct than alive. You showed us stupid Americans how to be correct when after killing 58 people on subways and busses, the murderers bodies were shipped back to Pakistan for a hero's funeral. Congratulations on the unforgettable education you gave us ignorant Americans with that episode.

Pity the football stadium bombing was broken up. A 10,000 lb bomb in centerfield should collapse the lungs of the 80,000 fans. Can you imagine the Pakistani hero's funeral for killing 80,000 of the hated infidels? A procession not seen since the days of Babar.

Care for ricin with your tea?

Posted by ed 2006-05-22 20:29|| 2006-05-22 20:29|| Front Page Top

#75 --There are far more intelligent people than me who should be tasked with that job.--

Another difference between Europeans and Americans.

We aren't you, never have been, never will be.

When you made the comment about coming after you next, you were projecting cos that's what you'd do.

We don't. We're not you, never have been.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-22 20:29|| 2006-05-22 20:29|| Front Page Top

#76 Pretty cold that he isn't moved by organlegging of young christian children in PakiWakiLand to raise money for Osama.

Pretty cold.

Absolute Zero on morals.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-22 21:14|| 2006-05-22 21:14|| Front Page Top

#77 I am a Christian, Roman Catholic specifically, who believes in giving people the benefit of the doubt.

How many times, where is your "Reality Check" set? What level of filth do you tolerate before realising the idea of "Turn the other cheek" simply makes the mass murderers behave worse?

W@hen you do turn the cheel, and your own loved ones are murdered, raped?
When you realize that they really do mean to destroy the Catholic Faith to the last crying baby?
What is "Enough"?

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-05-22 21:36|| 2006-05-22 21:36|| Front Page Top

#78 Ants are trying to take over my house. Today my cat was toying with an ant on the kitchen floor. I could have let her play with it for a while. Instead, I squished it. I could never be a moderator.

Posted by Darrell 2006-05-22 21:36|| 2006-05-22 21:36|| Front Page Top

#79 From #6:
DanNY - Eliminate. Powerful word. Please clarify if you're inclined. Tons of questions... Examples: What model(s) will we use to deal internally and externally? Law Enforcement is going to fail - for the reasons 2b and I accept - subversion of the system by internal enemies. Or do you agree some internal "cleansing" must take place first?

I think a law placing internal Islamist related crimes into a special category of espionage/subversion to be tried in military courts would suit the purpose. Civil courts are worse than useless for this type of prosecution. Of course a manadatory sunset clause should be built in to ensure the law is not abused after its primary function is completed. I do not believe internal 'cleansing' is necessary or desireable. I think the majority of Americans at this point see the need for draconian action to break the current stalemate (for lack of a better term) in our approach to Islam. Let the barking moonbats bray all they wish, they will eventually be ignored as the isolationists were after pearl harbor.

The extent of military action required is somewhat daunting but doable. Since we will then have the oil proceeds to finance the operation we could hire mercenaries (as in countries) to run specific areas. As to sabotage, it may have some effect but not likely enough to cause serious shortages. Being in control of production we can set the price of the oil low enough and consistent enough to avert the price shocks we have been experiencing. Evacuate the areas that need to be secured. Drill more of our own reserves. All of this will help.

Posted by DanNY 2006-05-22 21:52|| 2006-05-22 21:52|| Front Page Top

#80 Too much reliance on mercenaries has a pernicious effect. c.f. the Romans, for just one example.

I understand why we have 'contractors' in Iraq right now, but it's not a trend I want to encourage too very much in general. I look at the next 10-15+ years, see the breakup of lots of geopolitical structures and then think about mercenary armies building up ... Italy for centuries comes to mind, the direct background behind today's Mafia, those mercenary armies ...

Posted by lotp 2006-05-22 22:13|| 2006-05-22 22:13|| Front Page Top

#81 lotp

I was referring to hiring countries as in say, India to run an area with their forces being funded/subsidized by the oil revenues. I did not mean building mercenary armies.

One of the major issues would be how to start a process like this rolling since an incremental approach won't work.

Posted by DanNY 2006-05-22 22:45|| 2006-05-22 22:45|| Front Page Top

#82 Dotcom is applauding. Tell him hello.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 22:52|| 2006-05-22 22:52|| Front Page Top

#83 Absolute Zero on morals.

You're one to talk. All this energy expended attacking me, yet...

I will admit - I was shocked by my own reversal of outlook - and realized that I am now truly an advocate of outright genocide of the global Islamic population - as an unfortunate, yet necessary preemptive action - Lone Ranger

Destroy the madrasses, with the Muslim children inside. Past time to go Viking on these barbaric throw-backs...Ten years ago I never would have thought it possible that I would advocate the extermination of an entire group of people. - Manolo

Anyone defending these statements is sick. No different then the islamofascists. Why should I care then, whether you win? You and Ahmadinejad deserve each other. God help us all.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 23:01|| 2006-05-22 23:01|| Front Page Top

#84 Dear Mr. Troll (Ebbereth Jeans9622 et al.),

I have been absent for most of todays discussions but have read them with interest this evening. However, nowhere have I seen you provide an idealistic or otherwise solution to the situation. What would you do if it were in your power to act? You can assume that you have no great powers of persuasion or force than the rest of us mere mortals. The world wonders...

Posted by DanNY 2006-05-22 23:14|| 2006-05-22 23:14|| Front Page Top

#85 What would you do if it were in your power to act?

This type of argument isn't even clever anymore, and it's along the same lines as "prove to me that God exists".

I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't replace one evil with another. How's that?

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 23:25|| 2006-05-22 23:25|| Front Page Top

#86 I'll tell you what I do find clever though: that you used the phrase Final Solution as part of the title of your enlightened piece. Tell me, are you going to continue borrowing phraseology from those times? Is this something that has become acceptable in your mind?

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 23:32|| 2006-05-22 23:32|| Front Page Top

#87 As John Wayne would say:

Pretty poor Joe, pretty poor.

One who can only criticize is unimportant (in the American Indian sense) to argue with.

Posted by DanNY 2006-05-22 23:33|| 2006-05-22 23:33|| Front Page Top

#88 I'd consider it a virtue to criticize maniacal hatred, and speak against it when no one else will. If only so that it stays on the record, that someone did.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 23:44|| 2006-05-22 23:44|| Front Page Top

#89 You can always use that as your epitaph.

Posted by Fordesque 2006-05-22 23:48|| 2006-05-22 23:48|| Front Page Top

#90 "I'd consider it a virtue to criticize maniacal hatred, and speak against it when no one else will. If only so that it stays on the record, that someone did."

Well then partner a few good words against the maniacal hatred that killed close to three thousand people in my city would be greatly appreciated.

Posted by DanNY 2006-05-22 23:50|| 2006-05-22 23:50|| Front Page Top

#91 I didn't see myself giveng support to any particular point rather pointing out your blindness and lack of morals.

As a Cathloic you should be trying to save the poor children being parted out live for Osama's profit.

To ignore the littlest among us is to deny your professed faith in Jesus. Children were #1 with him.

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for to such belong the kingdom of heaven."

"If any among you should harm even a hair on these little ones heads......"

Perhaps you fit better with:
"A camel can fit through the eye of a needle easier than a rich man can enter the kingdom of heaven"

And these bible quotes from this secular human who only a few times a year graces his Lutheran Church.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-22 23:54|| 2006-05-22 23:54|| Front Page Top

#92 The guys in Afghanistan (and Iraq) say it better and louder than me, every bloody day.

Posted by Ebbereth Jeans9622 2006-05-22 23:57|| 2006-05-22 23:57|| Front Page Top

#93 Still it would be nice to hear it from you.

Posted by DanNY 2006-05-22 23:58|| 2006-05-22 23:58|| Front Page Top

#94 So, you consider the US evil, then?

Well, coming from Germany, considering we saved you from your worst instincts......

We've touched a nerve, I see.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-05-23 00:00|| 2006-05-23 00:00|| Front Page Top

#95 Something about a log and an eye, 3dc. Better make sure that your own morals are intact, before criticizing mine.

Posted by Crelet Elmeregum6315 2006-05-23 00:00|| 2006-05-23 00:00|| Front Page Top

#96 A fitting epitaph will be along the lines of:

The Ponce who gave Poseurs a bad name.

Posted by random styling 2006-05-23 00:04|| 2006-05-23 00:04|| Front Page Top

#97 But DanNY - that would be .. like... taking a stand for something. EJ can't do that! Besides they Islamist might take offense.

EJ is full of shit - and it smells worse then my son's diaper. He would'nt do anything - just sit and whine about how unfair it is and how much it intrudes on *his* life. He is the one who would stand around and watch while a woman was beheaded in front of him and he had the power to stop it. And then bitch when someone takes out a gun and blows the beheader away. "Oh my! Did you have to kill him? I mean couldn't you have shot his hand or something? That poor man! You MONSTE! YOU MURDERER!!".

He has no solutions - just hot air and bullshit.

Posted by CrazyFool 2006-05-23 00:09|| 2006-05-23 00:09|| Front Page Top

00:09 CrazyFool
00:04 random styling
00:00 Crelet Elmeregum6315
00:00 anonymous2u
23:58 DanNY
23:57 Ebbereth Jeans9622
23:54 3dc
23:54 pihkalbadger
23:50 DanNY
23:48 pihkalbadger
23:48 Fordesque
23:44 Ebbereth Jeans9622
23:44 DMFD
23:36 pihkalbadger
23:35 Algore
23:33 DanNY
23:33 Xenophon
23:32 Ebbereth Jeans9622
23:32 Xenophon
23:31 JosephMendiola
23:29 DMFD
23:25 Ebbereth Jeans9622
23:22 Oldspook
23:19 JosephMendiola