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2006-05-02 Home Front: Culture Wars

Instapundit: immigration rally was designed to fail

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Posted by Mike 2006-05-02 06:53|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 And the democrats want full amnisty for a new voting block and welfare slaves to replace the ones they lost.

Posted by DarthVader 2006-05-02 09:00|| 2006-05-02 09:00|| Front Page Top

#2 DV... well said. I don't completely agree with Glenn Reynolds on this one, though I think he's partly right.

What makes me most sad about this is that probably the majority of the Mexicans are marching because they are saying, "notice me!" They work hard, they came for the American dream and they have been let down by our politicians on the left and right, who have sold them out to lobbyists for votes. The immigrants deserve to have a reasonable pathway out of the shadows. We allowed them to come for years.

It's time to fix the situation, but our politicians are so incompetent that they can't enact the obivous solution - secure the border and then provide these people with a path to citizenship. Not amnesty - but a path. The losers won't fill out the paperwork or be patient enough to wait. The winners will. Everyone would be winners that way.

Posted by 2b 2006-05-02 09:45|| 2006-05-02 09:45|| Front Page Top

#3 Actually, I think it's more critical to FIX the current INS/ICE/whatever they call it now system. The entire program is a joke and a mess and visitors/emigrants to this country deserve better.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2006-05-02 09:54|| 2006-05-02 09:54|| Front Page Top

#4 Beware people that call this an immigration issue - its not. Its an Illegal Alien vs Immigrant issue. This is merely an attempt to obfuscate so the organizers of the "protests" can demagogue the issue for political gain. Insist on clear language and clear delineation between immigrants and illegal aliens.

I am angry because these agitators and their "useful fools" (Lenin was right about that) are preventing any real and meaningful rational discussion of immigration reform - starting with secure borders, humane immigration laws, impact of immigrants (and illegals) on labor and wages, etc. They're trying to drown it out and force the issue.

I agree with the following sentiments, by a former President. Again put me down as a member of the "Big Wall with a Broad Gate" crowd.

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
--Theodore Roosevelt

Posted by OldSpook 2006-05-02 09:59|| 2006-05-02 09:59|| Front Page Top

#5 Lets just pretend for a moment that an open US and Mexican border situation existed, ie., no official border, no border patrol, no illegal residence, alients, whatever. How long do you suppose it would take for this entire country to be totally overrun? A month, six weeks?

Posted by Besoeker 2006-05-02 10:54|| 2006-05-02 10:54|| Front Page Top

#6 I have a question of my own:

If I suddenly had the parts for my magic wand that have been on back order for the last two years, and I could legalize/document the entire 6 million or so illegals tomorrow, how many of them would suddenly be unemployable?

Posted by Phil 2006-05-02 11:01|| 2006-05-02 11:01|| Front Page Top

#7 After all, they'd suddenly have to pay taxes and the next wave coming up from Mexico wouldn't.

Posted by Phil 2006-05-02 11:02|| 2006-05-02 11:02|| Front Page Top

#8 To top it off the employeer would not be able to hold deportation over them like a bat. Likely he would fire them.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-02 12:17|| 2006-05-02 12:17|| Front Page Top

#9 Why don't we offer to annex Mexico and accord it the same status as Puerto Rico. This would let industry go in and fix the Mexican economy so that it can provide for all of its people. Also, this would fix the illegal problem here, since the Mexicans would be members of the Commonwealth. Might be a little tough on the current Mexican economic and political power structure.

Posted by RWV 2006-05-02 12:22|| 2006-05-02 12:22|| Front Page Top

#10 It's a case of the blind leading the blind. ANSWER, with little political power, attempts to lead jobless immigrants who have nowhere to turn for help, in order to appear relevant.

Posted by wxjames 2006-05-02 14:46|| 2006-05-02 14:46|| Front Page Top

#11 Phil: how many of them would suddenly be unemployable? After all, they'd suddenly have to pay taxes and the next wave coming up from Mexico wouldn't.

For the same reason why legal immigrants pay taxes, I suspect that many Mexicans would actually choose to pay as well. It's not always rosy for even legal immigrants in their first few years, having to work low income jobs, but you don't see them risking their legal status by choosing an illegal job (thereby becoming criminals). Most legal immigrants in financial hardship are motivated to improve their well being through training, education, or entrepreneurship. Those that don't make it are forced to return by simple forces of economics; even in the hot American economy there are limits and sooner or later unemployment among the illegals would begin to rise.

The question is whether this many legalized immigrants could find legal jobs all at once. I suspect they wouldn't (even with a secure border), but that's a separate economic debate in itself.

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-02 14:50|| 2006-05-02 14:50|| Front Page Top

#12 Lets just pretend for a moment that an open US and Mexican border situation existed, ie., no official border, no border patrol, no illegal residence, alients, whatever. How long do you suppose it would take for this entire country to be totally overrun? A month, six weeks?

Depends on whether we overrun the area south of the border at the same time. lots of useable real estate down there. oil. other minerals. some farmable soil, good resort possibilities ....

of course, we'd have to vote out the Mexicans in office but hey, fair is fair.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-02 14:54|| 2006-05-02 14:54|| Front Page Top

#13 "...how many of them would suddenly be unemployable."

LOL...Outstanding Phil! As the old saying goes; The funniest jokes are the ones that are true. Sadly, the people that will decide the outcome in this debate wont get it.

Posted by DepotGuy 2006-05-02 14:56|| 2006-05-02 14:56|| Front Page Top

#14

Rafael:For the same reason why legal immigrants pay taxes, I suspect that many Mexicans would actually choose to pay as well.

Most of them probably owe their jobs to the fact that they get paid under the table without withholding or the like. The "undocumenteds" don't really have that much choice in the matter. (And as 3dc points out, there's the added blackmail factor involved). Those that _do_ would suddenly be at a terrible competitive disadvantage to those that don't. And down at the $ 9.00 an hour (and lower) end of the pay scale it's pretty tough.

And those businesses that didn't evade taxes by hiring illegals and not paying the withholding would be at a terrible disadvantage to those that don't.

This is why employment of illegals is concentrated in economic sectors like construction. Once the employment level of undocumenteds reaches a certain level there's a domino effect that forces everyone who is still in the system out of business.

I will confess what is an awful heresy here: I have sympathy for the undocumented workers. And they get screwed over a lot, both in Mexico and by their employers here. But if we never _start_ enforcing our borders, any participants in an amnesty program are likely to find themselves screwed over again after it's started.

Depotguy: LOL...Outstanding Phil! As the old saying goes; The funniest jokes are the ones that are true. Sadly, the people that will decide the outcome in this debate wont get it.

Well, I don't think it's funny. I think it's tragic. Unfortunately the fact that the US is run by stupid people (politicians and electorate both) isn't amenable to fixing by immigration; all the humans are like that, and the martians aren't coming.

Posted by Phil 2006-05-02 15:20|| 2006-05-02 15:20|| Front Page Top

#15 Phil, sympathy isn't even what is required, but a little understanding of why this is happening. Once this understanding is acquired, the vilification falls by the wayside naturally, and efforts could be devoted to finding an optimal solution.

Understanding takes effort though, so I'm not really suprised by some of the reactions I'm seeing.

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-02 16:30|| 2006-05-02 16:30|| Front Page Top

#16 There is something suspicious about ANSWER, a Stalinist group, and large numbers of ethnic minorities...I wonder if any Ukranians showed up.

Posted by matt from ill 2006-05-02 16:34|| 2006-05-02 16:34|| Front Page Top

#17 I just can figure out why I am supposed to be upset by and against people who what to work and provide for themselves and their famlies?

The Border is broken. Fix it. Deal with the people already here and don't let anymore in. If they are real criminals toss them out and don't let them back in. It's easy to do. Our political leadership will not lead. It's a political problem and it requires a political solution.

Posted by SPoD 2006-05-02 16:40|| http://sockpuppetofdoom.blogspot.com/]">[http://sockpuppetofdoom.blogspot.com/] 2006-05-02 16:40|| Front Page Top

#18 I work with charities that try to help the illegals out in terms of humane things: food, clothing. I'm talking about the migrants out in the fields, not the ones working at McDonalds. These folks are in the most miserbale conditions - but that they come here speaks volumes about how much worse Mexico is.

For them, there are No unions, no legal protection, no medical or OSHA help, nothing. They are utterly at the mercy of ther employer. One of them gets hurt, the "employer" just cuts them loose and threatens to have them deported. They end up in the community hospital ER, and we taxpayers end up footing the bill.

It *is* a human rights issue: the presence of these folks and the blackmail power the employer have allows them to drive low wages and almost slave working conditions into the labor market. And this hits *our* poor who want a job, in that they cannot compete because they are LEGAL and have the protection of the law and courts.

We need to do these things:

1) Control the borders: don't let anyone in that isnt supposed to be here.

2) Go after the EMPLOYERs of the illegals.

3) Provide an option for those who want to become Americans to do so, getting them into the system of taxes, wages and labor laws.

3 doesnt make any sense unless 1 and 2 are there.

2 only makes sense if we are going to do 3.

And 1 is neccesary for the security of the nation, and fairness to those who agree to play by the rules.

Controlling the border is a given. No arguments to the contrary make any sense at all unless you're trying to deliberately destroy the USA.

So the rest goes like this:

Borders get locked down, fence built, and enforced. Period. You cant prove you have proper reason to be here, or you doin't pass security checks, then you get turned away. We find you here, then you get tossed back over the border. The border is enforced. End of That Story.

Next, anyone working here who is here illegally has one chance to come forward: They provide their identity so they can be checked as security risks. they also pay a fine for breaking the law by coming here illegally (and have additional penalties if they are working under the table, etc). Then they must agree to abide by all laws and must sign onto the new immigration program.

New Immigration program (requires border enforcement and law enforcement):

First: Require registering and checking in at least monthly. This is to keep track of the potential immigrant and their employer. This makes sure they are meeting the conditions that allow them to stay in the country, as well as letting law enforcement know when one goes missing. You leave the program, you cannot come back in - you have to go through normal immigration channels.

Second: maintain a solid work history and do not significant draw on social services (i.e. ineligible for welfare). This also includes proper taxes being withehld and paid. And it includes paying the fine for being here illegeally -- it comes out of their pay as additional withholding.

Third: learn English

Fourth: stay clean in terms of law - no convictions other than a traffic ticket.

Fifth: A significant time comittment - Initially they get a "Red" card as "Former Illegal" that allows them to participate in the monitoring and citizenship program. 4 years from the "go" date they get the "Green" card and 4 years after that they can apply for permanent citizenship.

For this, you get your RED card, which can be checked like a social security number. You mess up (break the law, leave, miss a check in) and you are out - and your card is flagged so that it no longer works. And you are deported when you are apprehended.

The only way to shortcut that process is Military Service.

And now, go HARD after employers of the illegals, make it so they cannot threaten the illegals without hanging themselves for breaking the law as well.

If you dry up the illegal hirings, fewer illegals will stick around - and more of our own low-end workers will benefit from more jobs and les unfair competition for the wages (think construction labor, I worked it as my summer job)

Its been said "You can't outwork a mexican". Certainly a better rep than my Irish ancestors had. I say let those who want to assimilate, to work hard and become Americans, to build the nation not seperate from it, lets give them a path to do so, and meaningful reform and border control to make it happen.

Posted by OldSpook 2006-05-02 16:44|| 2006-05-02 16:44|| Front Page Top

#19 The only way to shortcut that process is Military Service.And now, go HARD after employers of the illegals, make it so they cannot threaten the illegals without hanging themselves for breaking the law as well.

Good stuff Spook!

Posted by Besoeker 2006-05-02 16:53|| 2006-05-02 16:53|| Front Page Top

#20 "Well, I don't think it's funny. I think it's tragic."

Phil, its taken me a decade but Ive replaced my heartburn on this issue with a cynical humor. Because of the line of work Im in, I know for a fact that many of the companies that exploit an illegal workforce will consider their current employees with a newfound legal status expendable. Therefore, it is false premise to conclude that all illegal aliens, if given the choice, will come out of the shadows and opt for amnesty. Furthermore, without as much as a single solid demographic statistic, all esoteric conjecture regarding illegal aliens (ie; desire to pay taxes) must be factored for its speculative nature. So I find it ironic that rather then debate this issue on empirical data it continues to be driven by assumptive opinions that are impossible to disprove. But ask any politician or salesperson, its not logic that sells. Emotion sells!

Posted by DepotGuy 2006-05-02 16:55|| 2006-05-02 16:55|| Front Page Top

#21 Spook,
That is the first reasoned discussion of "who, what, when, where and why" I have heard since this topic became the issue de jour.
Even if I can't accept all your points without a bit more due diligance, I could vote yes on that proposal right now!

Posted by Capsu 78 2006-05-02 17:39|| 2006-05-02 17:39|| Front Page Top

#22 OldSpook for president!

Posted by DarthVader 2006-05-02 18:38|| 2006-05-02 18:38|| Front Page Top

#23 OS is right on and in line with a post I wrote here a couple of weeks ago. The solution is obvious. Numbers 1 & 3 will require backbone to get done, but the whole thing is moot without either one.

As far as #3 (going after the employers) I would suggest that we make the fines very painful, we enable local law enforcement or at least a state agency be the enforcement mechanism. I prefer local enforcement and I would provide the lion's share of the fine revenue to the local municipality or state as incentive to perform the enforcement.

Posted by remoteman 2006-05-02 19:27|| 2006-05-02 19:27|| Front Page Top

#24 Phil, don't worry. We're here and have a plan. It's going to be wonderful.

Posted by M CIA 2006-05-02 19:29|| 2006-05-02 19:29|| Front Page Top

#25 I just can figure out why I am supposed to be upset by and against people who what to work and provide for themselves and their famlies?

See above. They have a plan. MAybe it doesn't get up your nose yet
but it does mine. Ignoring the rhetoric and reality is alot like ignoring the rhetoric and reality of the situation in Iran.
I guess a lot of them are paying taxes because IRS spit out over 7 million invalid W-2 forms this year.
So maybe it will get to you when YOUR credit gets hosed by some illegal with a stolen SS number (yours).
Meanwhile I totally disbelieve that 70-12 million people with virtually no identity are going to show up somewhere and be fingerprinted MUCH LESS that they will take an oath of loyalty to the USA as used to be required, learn english, or any of the other things that would promote assimilation.
Do we really need MILLIONS of foriegners hanging around on street corners (all over the place)
waiting to do your work like slaves ? It;s disgusting on both ends.

Throw them back.

Posted by jim#6 2006-05-02 20:26|| 2006-05-02 20:26|| Front Page Top

#26 What really pisses me off is that this is so blazingly obvious a solution if you stop and think for a few without politically posturing.

Its not amnesty, but will appeal to that crowd because it gives those who really do wish to be Americans a path for doing so.

Its not wide open borders but it does allow for more motivated peopel to come in.

Its not a half-way barrier, but a full up security zone on our vulnerable borders (to combat terrorism here in the US).

The only losers here are the businesses that take advantage of cheap slave labor from illegals.

Yes they will not be able to sell as cheaply as before, so we consumers will pay more for chicken, veggies, etc. But we will also see a lot less of our social services consumed by people who arent even contributing to the system - meaning our tax dollars go farther and are spent on citizens, not illegals. Plus, adding several million hard working peopel to Social Security is buond to help that.

Now if President Bush would just have the guts to push the do-nothings in Congress to move on this, we'd have a winner for everyone except big exploiteive businesses and the marxists who need this as a demgogue rabble-rousing issue.

Bush puzzles the hell out of me - he doesnt defend his actions, doesnt publicize the victories, doesnt go big on how well the economy is growing, adding jobs and keeping low inflation and growing wealth at all levels. He doenst counter the MSM's "world is collapsing because of Bush" meme that they thread into everything.

Im getting sick of it. He needs to grow a pair or move out of the way for someone who has a pair. He's going to cost us the war when Congress goes Dummycrat and it gets into subpeona and impeachment BS while cutting funding for the troops and leaving the border wide open, and basically surrendering to the terrorists demands.

George - time to fish or cut bait - and get Congress off its ass and enact immigration reform and cut the pork-barrel shit out -- bust Trent Lott and that railroad boondoggle, kick Steven's ass about the bridge to nowhere in Alaska, and kick Frist in the nuts for not having guts to stand up and vote AGAINST Lott's pork.

Act like a majority or be prepared to lose it. Dubya, you wnat a legacy, here's your chance.

1) Win the War (already doing that)
2) Control the border
3) Fix the immigration laws
4) control spending
5) get your judges approved

Do that, and you'll ahve a congress that wins big in the fall. Do what you are doing, sitting around with your thumb us your ass, and you'll be facing a horde of investigations from a Democratic controlled house come next spring.

Yes, Im pretty pissed off. And I have the right to be - Bush is dicking around instead of taking this bull by the horns like a winner would.

God, times like this I miss Ronald Reagan the most.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-05-02 20:33|| 2006-05-02 20:33|| Front Page Top

#27 1) Win the War (already doing that)

Which war ? Iraq? The "war" is won.
Whatever it is now it isn't "War against Iraq" And it isn't won. Only Iraqis can win this part. The rest of the WOT? Frankly it don't look that good.

2) Control the border

Not gonna happen on W's watch. Bzzzzzt...
3) Fix the immigration laws

The laws are fine. They are not being followed or enforced.

4) control spending

Spending billions every week in Iraq, while our infrastructure crumbles . I expect to be very cold next winter.

5) get your judges approved

Because what ? Haviung "ideologically correct" judges will please your sensibilities?
So you can make constitutional amendments about basically INANE subjects?
Screw that!

Posted by jim#6 2006-05-02 20:46|| 2006-05-02 20:46|| Front Page Top

#28 OS, there's something that you left out in your plan: there has to be some way of putting pressure on Mexico. Unfortunately, my guess is that they have the upper hand on this.

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-02 22:21|| 2006-05-02 22:21|| Front Page Top

#29 OS - Good Plan.

I would also go after the 'sanctuary cities' such as seattle which forbids enforcement from asking about immigration status - cut off their federal funds and they will come around 'real quick'. I'm sorry but you don't get to pick and choose which laws you will enforce.

When you go after the employers be sure to pierce the corprate veil.

Make it incomfortable for anyone to be here illegally. Require proof of residents or citizenship to register for school or receive non-critical medicare care (at the Emergency rooms).

Posted by CrazyFool 2006-05-02 23:49|| 2006-05-02 23:49|| Front Page Top

00:33 ed
00:23 ed
23:50 phil_b
23:49 CrazyFool
23:45 phil_b
23:40 Frank G
23:39 Frank G
23:39 ed
23:38 Frank G
23:32 Rafael
23:30 CrazyFool
23:25 RD
23:17 JosephMendiola
23:14 macofromoc
23:13 3dc
23:12 DMFD
23:11 lurking in Germany
23:03 Rafael
23:02 RD
22:58 Frank G
22:57 Seafarious
22:54 Frank G
22:53 Rafael
22:53 sludge