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2005-07-30 Down Under

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Posted by .com 2005-07-30 02:12|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 This just means the game pirates will be more popular

Posted by Paul Moloney 2005-07-30 03:10|| 2005-07-30 03:10|| Front Page Top

#2 It's a M rating people. That means that it's for adults. Thats what parents are for. BTW it's a legal product in the US. It's is still for sale in plenty of places.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-07-30 03:33|| 2005-07-30 03:33|| Front Page Top

#3 ima goddam pissend that theez punk ass mo-fos kep treetin my cj liker biatch!

>:(

how yer liker goddam 4-o gankin yaz wile ima do me lo-lo 64 creepin ya ass!

bye em way thanz for teh cash biach lookerin yo not needn aneemo.

spress yo'self!

Posted by muck4doo 2005-07-30 03:35|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2005-07-30 03:35|| Front Page Top

#4 you can see the real thing with far far less trouble in a hundred different venues

Really. I, too, don't get it -- especially since prostitution is legal there. Isn't it?

Kind of like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel . . .

Posted by cingold 2005-07-30 03:41|| 2005-07-30 03:41|| Front Page Top

#5 Prostitution? Yes - but that's a far cry more "involving" than merely watching some little animated sex bit, lol!

If "looking" is the venue, there's still tons of stuff to look at that exceed whatever GTA has in it, heh.

Tempest in a teapot. Great sound byte BS value, though, for the witless to get excited about. ;-)

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 04:15|| 2005-07-30 04:15|| Front Page Top

#6 Oh, I really do think boys (and of course men) should be allowed to role-play beating people to death with baseball bats, raping prostitutes and then killing them when they're all finished. And hey, it's fun! and everybody does it!! This will have no affect on civilization at all.

/ sarcasm

I usually agree with you .com, but I think you are wrong on this one. I really believe the dark ages are descending on us very quickly because people can't determine right from wrong anymore. We are going back to the days of the barbarians and I really want no part of it. Please men, stand up for what is right and good or we and all our families will pay for it the hard way.

Posted by Slaiting Elmolusing7282 2005-07-30 05:59|| 2005-07-30 05:59|| Front Page Top

#7 Point taken, SE - I saw it, played around with it for about 30 minutes and tossed it. It was crap.

But that wasn't my point - or the point of the story. My point was that the "secret" titillating scenes exposed by the crack are of little significance -- the point of the story is about how these scenes are terrible, not the game itself, lol. I find that perfectly silly. Agreed that the rest of the game is shit. I thought it would be cool - given all the reviews, but it wasn't.

[soapbox - skip if uninterested]
You're not of the school that simple exposure to X makes one an X person, are you? It's clear that each of us chooses among a bazillion things everyday. Why do we choose this over that? Internal compass? Peer pressure? Social pressure? Gullibility? Repetition wears us down? Yes, to a degree - to all. When parents and peers and institutions have done a fair job of it, then we have a good solid compass and are not nearly so vulnerable to stupid decisions, such as the perverse scenario of GTA. In self-defense, smart people will chose to avoid the situations that force them to make uncomfortable choices. That first time, when it's unexpected, is probably the biggest danger. That's where screening their friends comes into play. You can't control your economic situation all the time, but you can keep your kid away from the screwups - mimicing their screwed up parents.

Recall a book called, "If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him"? Lol - it's real. What that books (and title) really boils down to is external vs internal truths and values. If it's external, it's not worth warm spit - it won't hold up or guide you when the heat (peer pressure, etc) is on. It must be an internalized value to stand up to the pressure - wherever it comes from. Parents should protect their children from perversities, making the choices for them and shielding them from as much of the negativity as possible, until they are sufficiently armed with internal values to make their own choices. Incrementally works best, of course. If they then jump off the cliff after that, then the reason is they never really internalized the values - they were just playing "please the person with power" game they learned in the crib... not the same thing at all.

I made it a point, as a father, a single father for 10 yrs, BTW, not to teach my daughter what to think or believe, but how to think for herself and about how to detect the motives of others. I never talked down to her, never refused to tell her the truth (Santa Clause, etc, bit the dust early, lol), and listened to her with my full attention. To my surprise, it was a terrific experience.

I had one hard 'n fast rule - yep, only one:
The default answer to anything she wanted was "Yes". When it was "No" I explained why in language she understood, until she understood and agreed it made sense, and brooked no further argument.

Believe it or not, it worked great. She began to think about things before asking, and in short order the dumb requests disappeared. We only had two bad hiccups in a decade - and those were great lessons - for both of us. I made it a point, which cost me dearly in time and effort, to follow through on everything. I kept all of my promises, both good and bad. I made it a point to never be arbitrary. It was a real pain in the ass, sometimes, but it surprised the hell out of me how much fun it turned out to be. I became "one of the kids" to all her friends. They talked to me openly. I could drive, lol, that seemed to be what truly set me apart. I never had so much fun in my whole life. Just picture a gaggle of 13 yr old girls asking a Dad to come to the mall and hang out with them. Lol, they did - and sometimes I went along, heh. What a trip. Anyway - that's what worked for me and my great daughter. I tried, very hard, not to confuse her or screw her up with my flaws, which are many, yet protect her until she was ready to go it alone. I lucked out - she's really cool.
[/soapbox]

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 06:41|| 2005-07-30 06:41|| Front Page Top

#8 raping prostitutes and then killing them when they're all finished.

Wow, I finished the game without coming across that little feature, I assume you have actually done/seen this?

Posted by Paul Moloney 2005-07-30 07:09|| 2005-07-30 07:09|| Front Page Top

#9 Heh, Paul - I didn't kill any hookers, either. I found it pretty much as it was reviewed on Something Awful - but it has aged off the list, it appears. Anyone who doesn't worship the GTA games is pretty much reviled by the spastic twits of X generation, lol.

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 07:22|| 2005-07-30 07:22|| Front Page Top

#10 Well having just turned 23 and been playing video games all my life, albeit much less frequently now, I am reminded of the similar 'controversies' caused by violent games of my yoof, like Mortal Kombat and Doom. Of course all the controversy did was ensure that those games became 10 times as popular, which is what has happened with the GTA series too.

The ironic thing is that GTA is pretty much made specifically for those of us who played those games as yoofs, but are now in our twenties and have lots of disposable income, and yet we are still prevented from playing the game (in Oz at least).

Posted by Paul Moloney 2005-07-30 07:44|| 2005-07-30 07:44|| Front Page Top

#11 It is odd that the presence of ACTUAL SEX SCENES!!! is more shocking to these people than the plotline of GTA:SA -- a ghetto kid returns to the ghetto to find his gang and family under attack, so he turns to crime and violence to fight back. The cops are corrupt, the government corrupt, and the only people he can trust are the ones wearing his colors.

In the middle of the game, there's an all-out turf war. You gather up some gangbangers, head off into enemy territory, and shoot it out until you take control of that section of the city.

But it's some digitally modeled bump-and-grind that has them upset.

*sigh*

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-30 07:58|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-30 07:58|| Front Page Top

#12 I'm pretty libertarian in my political views. But I am also concerned about a certain desensitization to violence, including rape, that our popular culture creates. Games are part of that.

I'm not calling for banning it - although I think there's a good case to be made for keeping it out of the hands of children and teens. But I'm worried about the cummulative effects of this stuff.

Posted by anon fem 2005-07-30 08:02|| 2005-07-30 08:02|| Front Page Top

#13 I loved the tech aspects of Doom, Quake, Wing Commander, UFO, even GTA, the graphics were stunning, realtive to the rest, but the gameplay was so repetitive that it bored me to tears very quickly. I could get them for next to nothing in Thailand - and just toss 'em if they failed to please. I actually went out an bought a comm'l copy of Civ II so I would have the book that explained the interdependence of advances, the big chart, and how it was designed. Pretty cool, IMO.

I guess I enjoyed Civilization II for longer than any other game I've ever played. Still have a copy and try to beat my best score every once in awhile. Civ III looked snazzier, but was less playable, IMHO. I'm still looking for a game that will keep my interest like Civ II did. Suggestions, knowing that's what pushed my buttons?

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 08:06|| 2005-07-30 08:06|| Front Page Top

#14 I'll add one thing to .com's rant based on my own experience. Never, ever, reward bad behaviour, don't punish it either, just prove it doesn't produce results. OTOH reward and encourage cooperation. I did this at an early age with my daughter and now get on fine with her and have no 'control' problems.

Posted by phil_b 2005-07-30 08:21|| 2005-07-30 08:21|| Front Page Top

#15 anon fem - Understood - completely. That's where shielding them, mainly by controlling who and where they hang out, is so important, IMHO. Just once I let my daughter hang around with a kid I recognized was likely a bad apple - I got to know most of them well since I coached every sport she played. When that kid tried to commit suicide (who knows if a legit attempt), I learned my lesson. The upside was that it scared the crap out of my daughter. Being a parent is a no-shit fulltime job. Being a good parent, anyway. My daughter does not need anyone's approval, including mine, lol, to feel okay or good about herself. And that turned out to be the key to resisting the BS.

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 08:22|| 2005-07-30 08:22|| Front Page Top

#16 There are arguably 2 effects at work with violent computer games, one is they desensitize people to real violence and make them likely to perform real acts of violence. The other is it allows people to vicariously work out their violent tendencies.

Public policy should be (but is often not) concerned with aggregate effects. That is, does something produce more good than bad effects. Computer games many of them violent have exploded and many people play them. Yet at the same time violence offenses by especially young men has declined. The evidence would seem compelling that violent computer games do not produce an increase in violent acts and in fact results in the opposite, a decline.

Posted by phil_b 2005-07-30 08:41|| 2005-07-30 08:41|| Front Page Top

#17 All the reputable (not agenda-driven) studies I've seen do not support the social engineer's favorite assertion: movies, TV, and games alter behavioral actions. When the homelife and classrooms are studied, the places the child spends the most time in, they see fairly faithful replication of the relationships in those settings. The time-killers and distractions are a drop in the bucket compared to the interplay they witness and participate in. If it's unambiguous and respectful, then that become the child's model. If it's demeaning, violent, hateful, etc - then that become the child's idea of the norm.

This may be where I part company with you, phil -- I think the key is to avoid arbitrary expectations. A clear unmoving line separating acceptable from unacceptable behavior works very very well. Punishment for bad behavior and rewards for good. Same standards every day. So I'm old-fashioned in that regard and it's pretty obvious stuff:

What is rewarded is replicated and what is punished is avoided - if they understand why, anyway.

A small variation, I think, on something you said fits here, too. I always answered my daughter's questions - no matter how wild or off the wall, not patronizing her, as I believe that making a topic out of bounds creates a mystery that makes it irresistable to most children. So it made sense to me to demystify things. When my daughter first started asking awkward questions, we would sit down, pop some popcorn, and talk. Usually, if either of us was embarrassed, it was me, lol. She was so matter-of-fact about some topics, due to our approach at home, that it freaked her friends and sometimes her teachers out, lol. I could tell you some doozies, lol. She would always be mildly bemused by those around her freaking out, heh.

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 09:09|| 2005-07-30 09:09|| Front Page Top

#18 The crime here is that the company committed fraud against both the ratings board and the distributors. The company had to submit both a distribution disk and a complete narative of what was on the disk to the board. That version got an American M rating, restricting sells to those 17 and above. It 'somehow' failed to mention the material for the Hot Coffee modification, which some enterprising Geek was able to unlock. Now the company did that either through commission or ommission. However, anyone who's be in the software development/engineering side of the house knows that the discipline of Configuration Management [let alone just real adult leadership] would preclude the material being allowed into the production stream. That process has been around for thirty years, so there is really no excuse.

The stupidity involved here is that GTA is a series with an established base and reputation. The company didn't need to sell public and could have simply sold over the internet. It still would have been profitable, but not quite as profitable as using the traditional distribution network, which will not handle AO rated games.

Bottom line is that the Board has no reason to trust the company anylonger in its submissions, so it has no reasonable need to review anymore products, effectively making all future games basically unrated and therefore treated as AO which distributors will not touch. Likewise, distributors, now being burned, will probably not touch their products even if the board is stupid enough to put their integrity on the line and continue to issue ratings for them. Basically, the company is now a piece of property to be purchased by a semi-monopoly like Electronic Arts for its titles and copyrights. Market forces, to include suits from the board and distributors, are going to terminate Take Two more effectively than the government or individuals can do.

The lawsuit identified by the article involves a Grandmother who supplied her 14 year old grandson a copy of the game and is now sueing because of the 'content'. Well Grandma, since the box as clearly labeled 17+, you have now just admitted you, to buy your grandson's favor and pump up your ego, provided a minor inappropriate material even before the notification of ratings change. I think Grandma needs a visit from Child Protective Services.

Posted by Sholuth Ulomonter3734 2005-07-30 09:10|| 2005-07-30 09:10|| Front Page Top

#19 Phil_b, I've been dropping into the porn lists on USENET for years and don't think it's an accident that there has been an explosion of paedophiles attacking and often killing children right about the time that really graphic porn along these lines became common on the Net.

Posted by too true 2005-07-30 09:11|| 2005-07-30 09:11|| Front Page Top

#20 "If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him"

Roy Masters, right? My dad's a big fan, I'll see if he has a copy I can borrow.

Posted by docob 2005-07-30 09:23|| 2005-07-30 09:23|| Front Page Top

#21 tt - How do you know there has been an explosion? Aren't you depending upon the press for that info, and that it wasn't winked at and swept under the carpet in times past? There may, indeed, be an explosion of prosecutions and the attendant news, but I doubt that people's behavior has drastically altered in recent years per your suggestion. Porn has ALWAYS been available - sure it's even moreso now, but it was always there and anyone with a penchant to act would have had no trouble acquiring it. You'll have to do more than just make an assertion.

I've read the stuff on this, too. I had a daughter to protect - and did. I even participated in shutting down two pedo sites in Louisiana after reporting them to the Fibbies. They didn't even know how to pick off the IP addy way back then, lol. It helps to have an agent as a friend to get their attention, of course. When we could guarantee we had the goods on them, then the local office chief would okay the action. He loved being on TV.

SU - Indeed, sounds like Granny's got some double-standards issues... I wouldn't mind if gangbanger crap was pulled off the shelves - in the computer shops, music stores, the worx. It's all about greed and power trips, nothing else I can see.

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 09:26|| 2005-07-30 09:26|| Front Page Top

#22 docob - No, it was a shrink, here's the Amazon link. Actually, the best thing about it was the Appendix - called the Laundry List: 43 of the 927 Immutable Truths - you have to say this with your tongue firmly planted in you cheek, lol. A truly insightful and useful little list. I can prolly still rattle off 10 or 20 of 'em, lol!

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 09:30|| 2005-07-30 09:30|| Front Page Top

#23 Cool!! Thanks for the link .com. I remember the seeing the book on the shelf, but confused the author. I'll definitely check it out.

Posted by docob 2005-07-30 09:56|| 2005-07-30 09:56|| Front Page Top

#24 docob - one of my favorites, #10 I think:

The Universe is not necessarily just, being good often does not pay off, and there is no compensation for misfortune. Yet it is your responsibility to do your best, anyway.

Something like that - I'm sure I've mangled the last sentence somewhat. Swallowing and digesting that baby is a big step toward becoming an adult, heh.

Posted by .com 2005-07-30 10:04|| 2005-07-30 10:04|| Front Page Top

#25 Phil B - "The evidence would seem compelling that violent computer games do not produce an increase in violent acts and in fact results in the opposite, a decline."

That's a huge assumption. I would suggest that most law enforcement would not agree that a reduction in violent acts was due to the explosion of violent video games. I believe that it is generally believed to be because of dramatically increased incarceration rates and the reduction of the crack cocaine epidemic and the aging of the population. Probably due to increased use of psychotropic prescription drugs on people and especially youth also.

My personal experience is that young men and women (and older people too) have become rude, provocative and increasingly aggressive and hard to deal with, with no thought as to any boundaries whatsoever other than "it's a free country and I can do what I want". In Southern California I believe a 13 year old baseball player just bludgeoned to death another player with a baseball bat as his first reaction to some taunting, I would certainly love to know if he played Grand Theft Auto and therefore his immediate reation was a learned violent response. I know what bet I would be placing. But then I live in California which is an increasingly difficult place to live and we are always at the forefront of things to come elsewhere, so watch out, the good times are probably coming your way too.

Posted by Slaiting Elmolusing7282 2005-07-30 10:27|| 2005-07-30 10:27|| Front Page Top

#26 I think the key is to avoid arbitrary expectations. I have no idea what you are talking about, but I can clarify what I mean by a hypothetical conversation.

Daughter: "Why should I cooperate with you?"

Me: "You don't have to cooperate with me. Here is the bus schedule to get to the video store, and this book will tell you how to cook the corned beef for dinner the way you like it."

Its the cause and effect thing we always go on about. And its fun to watch the lightbulb go on.

Posted by phil_b 2005-07-30 10:37|| 2005-07-30 10:37|| Front Page Top

#27 However, anyone who's be in the software development/engineering side of the house knows that the discipline of Configuration Management [let alone just real adult leadership] would preclude the material being allowed into the production stream.

*snort*

How many years have you spent in software development? Disabled cruft, jokes, and miscellaneous slop make it into the production streams on every project. You've gotta ship what's been tested. Rock Star perhaps should have disclosed the existence of a scene that can be enabled in software, but I'll bet their contract with the ratings board specified only what's accessible in the normal process of play and through published cheat codes.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-30 11:49|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-30 11:49|| Front Page Top

#28 In Southern California I believe a 13 year old baseball player just bludgeoned to death another player with a baseball bat as his first reaction to some taunting, I would certainly love to know if he played Grand Theft Auto and therefore his immediate reation was a learned violent response. I know what bet I would be placing.

Or, maybe he was just immersed in the thug ethos, and had parents who never bothered to actually raise him. I mean, c'mon, GTA:SA isn't rated "Teen", it's rated "Mature 17+". The box lists:

Blood and Gore
Intense Violence
Strong Language
Strong Sexual Content
Use of Drugs

That's actually a longer list than GTA:VC, which only says "Violence" and doesn't list "Use of Drugs".

If that kid played GTA, it's because his parents didn't want to be bothered raising him. I'd put my money on that being infinitely more damaging than any video game, movie, music, or whatever.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-30 11:56|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-30 11:56|| Front Page Top

#29 How many years have you spent in software development? Disabled cruft, jokes, and miscellaneous slop make it into the production streams on every project.

Don't know about SU3734, but in my case it was 27 years before I moved into a related field. And I guarantee you there was no such stuff in the products we shipped - neither DOD nor the corporate customers we served would have tolerated it one bit.

And yes, they got source code - directly, in DOD's case and in escrow for our corp custs.

Posted by too true 2005-07-30 11:58|| 2005-07-30 11:58|| Front Page Top

#30 EEK! I haven't played San Andreas yet. But I have GTA Vice City, it didin't rot my brain. But it's clearly labled mature. Kid's who play this game have poor parental supervision.

That is what this all comes down to Parenting. If you parent your child well, 99.9% of the time you end up with good results. Video Games or not.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-07-30 13:30|| 2005-07-30 13:30|| Front Page Top

#31 You are only 23, Paul? Wow! I had you pegged as having had much more life experience. Another Dan Darling-type youthful genius -- Rantburg does seem to attract y'all.

In my yoof the worriers had a thing about dungeons and dragons. In every generation they have to find something to worry about. The key is to make sure that you are rearing your children, not jest letting them grow.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-30 13:52|| 2005-07-30 13:52|| Front Page Top

#32 And I guarantee you there was no such stuff in the products we shipped - neither DOD nor the corporate customers we served would have tolerated it one bit.

Different market. Different requirements.

While lots of money depends on what I've worked on, no lives do. As a result, what matters is that it works as expected, not that the code is squeaky clean.

I have no doubt there's even less pressure for pristine code in the video game industry.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-30 14:25|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-30 14:25|| Front Page Top

#33 I wonder if Granny even *knew* the details of what was in GTA:San Andreas when she bought it, or was even paying attention, until she turned on the TV news and heard about the sex scandal.

As for getting all the gangbanger stuff off the market... I agree.

Unfortunately, doing that has been ruled unconstitutional. Just about the only limitations on free speech that isn't labeled unconstitutional are sexual in nature, and it's so unevenly enforced that if you try to start you look like a hypocrite.

(Well, there's also the McCain-Feingold laws, which heavily impact the main speech that the founders wrote the first amendment to protect.)

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-30 16:28|| http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]">[http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2005-07-30 16:28|| Front Page Top

#34 If you ban the good games they'll be in the pool halls swillin down cheap beer and reading the Classix Comic Version of Tropic of Cancer.

And getting in my way.

Posted by Shipman 2005-07-30 17:18|| 2005-07-30 17:18|| Front Page Top

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