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2005-05-10 Home Front: WoT

REAL ID

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Posted by Deacon Blues 2005-05-10 11:54|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 REAL ID also prohibits states from issuing driver's licenses to illegal aliens. This makes no sense, and will only result in these illegal aliens driving without licenses -- which isn't going to help anyone's security.

Yeah, let's just treat illegals like they're normal, law-abiding citizens!

I haven't read the entire article, but does he ever bother to provide evidence for some of his assertions? For example, "Assume that this information will be collected by bars and other businesses, and that it will be resold to companies like ChoicePoint and Acxiom." -- why is he making that assumption? What is his evidence? Why is this a Bad Thing?

If there's no "serious debate" about this, it's because people like the author of this piece aren't very serious.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-05-10 13:33|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-05-10 13:33|| Front Page Top

#2 It has been 3 1/2 years since 9/11. What has been done to prevent another attack? Right - nothing but wringing of the hands. Real ID is not perfect, but let me tell you, nothing the government does or will do will be perfect. It is not a national ID, which you would be required, under pain of arrest, to have on your person at all times. But, it would prevent 19 aliens from walking onto an aircraft and blowing us away, again.

Posted by Carey 2005-05-10 13:38|| 2005-05-10 13:38|| Front Page Top

#3 Real ID is just another "learning experience" for government. They had to learn the hard way that Prohibition was a disaster. Then they are still learning that the War on Drugs is an obscentity, that has cruelly stripped so very many of our freedoms giving nothing in return--freedoms that will be ever so hard to regain, even if the damn War on Drugs ends today. So now they seek to find the extremes in surveillance and control over the lives of other. Eventually they will learn that it is a loser, spending vast amounts of money to discover the hidden boring secrets of hundreds of millions of people. Indulging their voyeurism until their is nothing left to spy on. Dehumanizing others in an almost masturbatory hatred of privacy and quietude in others. To do what? Discover the brand of toilet paper Mrs McGuillicudy prefers? Divine why teenage boys are rebellious and horny? Isn't it a shame that our leaders are so spiritually immature that, once again, they would injure us all just so they can "find out" what most people already know? Wouldn't it be better if they just took out a subscription to 'Psychology Today', to try out the current pop self-help technique?

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-05-10 13:52|| 2005-05-10 13:52|| Front Page Top

#4 After thinking on this for a few hours I still believe the idea is sound but I do still have some reservations about how it will be implemented. At the moment it is an unfunded mandate to the states which will require the states to provide the money for implimentation. How well will that work? I agree that the author does not provide data or specifics, but it did get me to thinking. I'll do a bit more research on this.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2005-05-10 14:10|| 2005-05-10 14:10|| Front Page Top

#5 So now they seek to find the extremes in surveillance and control over the lives of other.

Another assertion without evidence. Where in the REAL ID act does this occur?

Trying to construct a more verifiable form of indentification is not surveillance.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-05-10 14:15|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-05-10 14:15|| Front Page Top

#6 RC - Did you get your recommended minimum daily amount of conspiracy elsewhere, today? ;-)

Posted by .com 2005-05-10 14:24|| 2005-05-10 14:24|| Front Page Top

#7 For goodness sakes, how are uniform standards for state driver's licenses the dawning of the apocalypse? And how is it "very expensive"? And who in their right mind thinks that the information involved (like "actual addresses and not post office boxes") is not already in databases. Get a life.

Posted by Tom 2005-05-10 14:49|| 2005-05-10 14:49|| Front Page Top

#8 Forms of modern identification require biometric data, or they are far too easy to counterfeit. And, like the Social Security card, if they are effective, then everyone else will want to use them. Abuse will inherently follow use, by both the government and private concerns. Second, registration with IDs is inherently coercive, or the ID is useless--unless you *must* have the ID to do something, nobody wants it. But this coercion can be additive. Right now, it will be required to drive, fly, have a bank account, or receive "entitlements" of any kind from the government. However, the ID may be required to do many things now taken for granted as not needing any ID at all: entry into buildings; voting; employment; credit purchases; cash purchases; school attendance; and any police matter. Third, the data contained on the ID may be enlarged to include far more than it does now, readily available to anyone with a scanner. Educational and medical/mental health records, criminal record & sex offender status, injunctions and restraining order information, financial records, any public records involving liens, forfeitures or garnishment, status as a parent paying child support (a currently existing federal database), prior drug or other offenses making you ineligable for government funds, *and* security status, such as "no-fly" status. Fourth, an importantly, there are perhaps 10-30 million people in the US who cannot qualify to receive the Read ID, for any number of reasons, not just for being illegal aliens. Many of the homeless neither have ID right now, or are capable of keeping an ID if it is issued to them. At any given time there are hundreds of thousands of people with outstanding arrest warrant, who will face jail or prison if they attempt to get an ID. There are also a vast number of people who are "outside the system" (blanks), who are either averse to IDs or who live lives that do no require ID, and no longer have them or other evidence that they are citizens. So, Mr anti-paranoid, what do you do with 10-30 MILLION people who don't fit? Ear tags? Chip implants? And for what? To conclude: All of these people have a strong motivation to either evade the system, corrupt the system, or bias the system in such a way that they can just live their lives in peace. Given such motivation, I am appalled to think of the utter chaos this will spawn. What price is *your* liberty worth? Would you kill to defend it? How many lesser crimes would you gladly commit?

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-05-10 14:52|| 2005-05-10 14:52|| Front Page Top

#9 What are we after? I think most people want to see controls on who comes in this country, both from security and economic standpoints. We need a mechanism for doing that. I like the idea of real ids, from what I've seen so far; no other suggestions to date address both challenges as uniformly, and other suggestions seem susceptible to political meddling.

Posted by jules 187 2005-05-10 14:53|| 2005-05-10 14:53|| Front Page Top

#10 Why am I getting a flashback of the Dhimmidonk anti-Patriot Act commercials made with $oro$'s money?

Posted by .com 2005-05-10 14:59|| 2005-05-10 14:59|| Front Page Top

#11 I would feel better if getting my passport was harder than it was. I went to the post office, paid a fee, gave them a certifed copy of my birth certificate that was 20 years old had my picture taken, they made a copy of my drivers license on which the picture looks not very like I do (a 8 year old picture). I got the passport in the US mail 4 weeks later. You think getting this "secure ID" will be anymore difficult?

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-05-10 15:30|| 2005-05-10 15:30|| Front Page Top

#12 I find it odd that one of the "arguments" anonymoose puts forth against real IDs is that people evading arrest warrants and those in the country illegally will be driven to crime.

Dude, they're already criminals. They're already "spawning chaos".

As for the rest -- I'm not really worried. Being asked to prove who I am in order to enter a building doesn't bother me; my employer requires that of me already, and it doesn't infringe on my liberty in any way.

Requiring an ID to vote? I'm all for it! Bring it on! Let's have a national database/voter registry to prevent double-voting, fictional voters, illegal alien voters, and disenfranchised voters from voting! In fact, I believe that far from being some sort of infringement on my rights, the status quo, with the Democrat machine cranking out phony registrations and pre-marked absentee ballots, is itself an offense against my rights by diluting my vote with fictional and illegal votes!

Trying to take your other points in order:

Abuse will inherently follow use, by both the government and private concerns.

That's what the courts are for. BTW, the lack of a verifiable ID is the root of many abuses, too.

Second, registration with IDs is inherently coercive, or the ID is useless--unless you *must* have the ID to do something, nobody wants it.

I have no problem with things that are "inherently coercive", per se. It's "inherently coercive" to require children to be immunized before they can attend school -- and to require them to attend school, for that matter -- but the social good far outweighs the negative.

Third, the data contained on the ID may be enlarged to include far more than it does now, readily available to anyone with a scanner.

Ah. The slippery slope.

Again, I'm not particularly worried about this. You list the potential info:

Educational and medical/mental health records, criminal record & sex offender status, injunctions and restraining order information, financial records, any public records involving liens, forfeitures or garnishment, status as a parent paying child support (a currently existing federal database), prior drug or other offenses making you ineligable for government funds, *and* security status, such as "no-fly" status.

Excepting the health information and most of the financial data, this is already public information.

What price is *your* liberty worth? Would you kill to defend it? How many lesser crimes would you gladly commit?

WTF? How does an ID that can be verified make me less free?

Can such an ID be abused in ways that make me less free? Certainly. But so can the LACK of such an ID.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-05-10 15:39|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-05-10 15:39|| Front Page Top

#13 Getting ready to make my play.

Posted by Shipman 2005-05-10 15:42|| 2005-05-10 15:42|| Front Page Top

#14 anonymoose has been investing in Tinfoil... But paying cash so as to not show ID, of course. What about that cursed IP address???

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-05-10 16:06|| 2005-05-10 16:06|| Front Page Top

#15 ..might that be tinfoil futures?

OTOH...in a galaxy far far away, someone who works for the Federation and can't speak English very well, is chalenging a poor native to prove his citizen status.

Posted by Kevlar ID 2005-05-10 16:23|| 2005-05-10 16:23|| Front Page Top

#16 ..if I was living underground (metaphorically speaking) and doing business in cash only, I would hire a lawyer (they love cash) and take the steps to become legal. You'd be suprised, practically any mess can be cleaned up.

..but, if I was living underground (literally) and doing business in cash only, I'd ask a gopher what to do.

Posted by Kevlar ID 2005-05-10 16:42|| 2005-05-10 16:42|| Front Page Top

#17 I'd like Real ID a lot more if you needed it to vote...

Posted by Iblis">Iblis 2005-05-10 17:47|| 2005-05-10 17:47|| Front Page Top

#18 I am truly sorry for those of you who are so trusting both of technology and the people who run it, that you would surrender yourselves to it sight unseen. Blanket solutions are just so intellectually easy that to many people they are irresistable. Say, national health care or military draft. It is just so *easy* to understand the basic concept, so reasonable, that they embrace it with no more thought, disparaging the quickly ballooning problems that could "easily" be corrected if the system "just had more money", or that "the system is good, it's just bad people that are trying to subvert it." Previously, I read comments that "it's no problem if it oppresses criminals" -- but criminals are just a minority, what about the vast number of other people who just can't be made to fit in such an easy to understand system? What do you want to do to them to *force* them to conform to your easy to understand system? They *must* be forced, you know. They won't join it willingly. But it's for their own good, you know. "My employer already makes me use an ID to enter his building, so I'm used to it." So what if that building isn't just *one* building? What if it is your apartment, *and* the hospital, *and* the library, *and* any government office, *and* banks, *and* anybody else who feels like it. All could claim legitimate security reasons to require you to swipe your card, and get the information from it. I could go on and on, but let me leave you with this final thought. Do you remember the Clinton administration? Do you also remember how they misused every part of the government they could to achieve their political ends? FBI files to the IRS to NOAA, even. There really was *no* limit to what they did or would do for political gain. Now, on the off-chance that some of you are republicans, if on the also off-chance you made it on the "enemy list" of your local democratic party, and they had the means to abuse you, would you trust them not to? Would they ever, *ever* say, "This guy is a republican Nazi, let's stick it to him." And believe me, even with the limited amount I know of villainy, with what is on your Real ID card, I could make your life a living Hell. I could run you down into the ground, financially. It is laughably simple and easy to understand, which is what matters, right?

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-05-10 19:45|| 2005-05-10 19:45|| Front Page Top

#19 I'm not worried. Me and my clan will gather around Keaton beach and drink beer and defy the powers that be. We may also steal DeaconMans artillery and defy the UN black heliocopters, unless they have ice of course, in which case we just roll over.

Posted by Shipman 2005-05-10 19:54|| 2005-05-10 19:54|| Front Page Top

#20 *snicker* the shiny side of the foil goes out, right?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-05-10 20:01|| 2005-05-10 20:01|| Front Page Top

#21 Frank nailed it. IP addresses are coersive. They must be banned immediately. They allow anyone to find your computer. Thats terrifying!!!!!!! Make all computers anonymous!!!!

Posted by phil_b 2005-05-10 20:02|| 2005-05-10 20:02|| Front Page Top

#22 Frank G, especially: well, obviously you are too good to be haxored, identity thefted, had your credit card numbers stolen, had your VIN/SSN and other personal numbers swiped. You should really brag to all those creeps about how safe you are. Me, I shred, minimize personal data on the Internet, try to control marketing data, and I still have had my CC numbers used to try and buy stuff at a Wal-Mart in Mexico City. I have also had credit denied because Equifax screwed up my data, and at a really embarassing time. Also, I had the pleasure of seeing a girl arrested and held for days because she had the same name as a girl in another state who looked nothing like her. Sorry, you may call it paranoia, but I call it sad experience, coupled with knowledge of the utter oafishness, malfeasance, incompetance, and malevolence of those people who will be administering this system. But hey, you are safe. Sucker.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-05-10 21:25|| 2005-05-10 21:25|| Front Page Top

#23 I have not had my credit or ID stolen - you are justified in your concerns if you wish, your extensions of the ID act to the rest of your strawmen is what I considered absurd. Nuff said

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-05-10 21:36|| 2005-05-10 21:36|| Front Page Top

#24 No, it is your assumption that the Real ID act is a thing unto itself that is absurd. Right now, you are probably in dozens of government databases, that taken individually seem to each be justifiable. The government has free access to your education records, despite the Buckley Act, and to your medical records, via HIPAA or the GBA (which also gives financial institutions indirect medical information, not covered by HIPAA), and to your employment records, via the Welfare Reform Act (supposed to be used only for deadbeat child support purposes). But despite their best efforts, there is no centralized system for compiling *all* of your data into a single, easily accessed database. Until now. Each of these databases are different systems using different identifiers for you as an individual. This is why it takes weeks to compile a detailed dossier on you, granted, one that is rife with inaccuracies and false information. But the worst part is that databases will be integrated into the system with other databases that have no record checking or central authority. For example, the "no-fly list", is wide open for many government agencies to indicate that in their opinion, someone is a risk. But no one manages the list, makes corrections or changes to it, or even takes responsibility for it. Once you are on it as a "risk", you cannot fly, and there is no appeal. The same applies to the "sex offender" database. People are added to the database when they are accused of any sex-related offense (I knew one who slapped a stripper on the bottom in front of an undercover police officer), *not* when they are convicted (his case was laughed out of court, but he is still on the list as a sex-offender, permanently). And, since many of these government databases buy and integrate private database information, god knows what may be put in your dossier, easily accessible at the lowest levels of government. Now, please, do not fool yourself into thinking what I have said are straw men. For the most part, these, or parts thereof, have already happened, or could easily happen, and without further public input. For further information, I might recommend reading Declan McCullagh's 'Politech', at politechbot.com, also epic.org, and eff.org

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-05-10 22:32|| 2005-05-10 22:32|| Front Page Top

#25 Anonymoose,

I for one appriciate your slant and willingness to dive into topics even though we have differences of opinion sometimes. (and i'm sure most RantBurgers do also)

Hell, almost my entire family disagrees with my views. (moonbats galore)

Posted by Kevlar ID 2005-05-10 22:52|| 2005-05-10 22:52|| Front Page Top

#26 Don't need REAL ID. Just pass legislation that makes the States liable for damages, pain and suffering which legal citizens suffer by illegals who were granted legit IDs by those States. When the penalties start sucking the life out of the state budget for education, security, health, etc, the states will take action to tighten the issuing process.

Posted by Spoluper Hupenter1939 2005-05-10 22:58|| 2005-05-10 22:58|| Front Page Top

23:59 Sobiesky
23:56 Atomic Conspiracy
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23:29 SC88
23:23 mojo
23:10 Frank G
23:06 Stephen
22:58 Spoluper Hupenter1939
22:52 Kevlar ID
22:36 Jackal
22:32 blackhorse
22:32 Anonymoose
22:25 .com
22:18 Jackal
22:10 jules 2
22:10 jules 2
22:09 jules 2
22:01 Sobiesky
21:54 trailing wife
21:54 Frank G
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21:36 Frank G