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2005-04-12 Europe
Pontiff OKd Reagan's nuke plans, diplo says
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Posted by Anonymous5089 2005-04-12 3:58:33 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 The USCCB? - before JP-II it was heading toward becoming the limp Episcopalian shadow of what the Church should be - it was that version of the USCCB that started accepting gays tacitly, softneing the liturgy, and flirting with Communism in the guise of "Liberation Theology". That bunch started the whole ball rolling that would hit with the paedophile scandal 2 decades later.

As for the assertions: Damn. I didnt know they had already declassified that kind of stuff. And I tend to disbelieve it.

Reagan talked the talk, and damn sure walked the walk. I pretty much doubt the Gipper asked for the Pope's blessings. Probably treated the Pope pretty much the same way he treated the Euros and the Communists: said what he was going to do and then did it. Maybe with the pope he shared details and the "why", but not much else different; probably was a bit more courteous, but nonetheless straight up.

I still remember some German bumper stickers from that time: "Better a Pershing in my yard than an SS-20 in my roof" - a sentiment I bet you never heard existed amongst Germans (Especially in Bayern and the border areas) due to the MSM's bias.

My guess is that the Gipper probably told the Pope something like the following:

"This is what I'm going to do, and why. What you do is up to you." Then he cobwoy'd the hell up and let 'em buck.

Any response from JP-II was more or less unimportant.
Posted by OldSpook 2005-04-12 6:45:47 AM||   2005-04-12 6:45:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 OS, TGA - is this account of the Pope's response to Brezhnev in late 1980 correct? From the Weekly Standard:

"How many divisions has the pope?" Stalin famously sneered. As it happens, with John Paul II, we have an answer. At the end of 1980, worried by the Polish government's inability to control the independent labor union Solidarity, the Russians prepared an invasion "to save socialist Poland." Fifteen divisions--twelve Soviet, two Czech, and one East German--were to cross the border in an initial attack, with nine more Soviet divisions following the next day.

On December 7, Brzezinski called from the White House to tell John Paul II what American satellite photos showed about troop movements along the Polish border, and on December 16 the pope wrote Leonid Brezhnev a stern letter, invoking against the Soviets the guarantees of sovereignty that the Soviets themselves had inserted in the Helsinki Final Act (as a way, they thought, of ensuring the Communists' permanent domination of Eastern Europe).

Already caught in the Afghanistan debacle and fearing an even greater loss of international prestige and good will, Brezhnev ordered the troops home. Twenty-four divisions, and John Paul II faced them down.
Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-04-12 9:48:00 AM||   2005-04-12 9:48:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 It can't have been "in the late 1980", that's the Gorbachev rule already.
I guess the article refers to the days when Jaruzelski took over in Poland and declared martial law on December 13 1981. It was common knowledge that Jaruzelski spared his country an occupation by Warsaw Treaty troops.
Today that has been put in doubt. It's very well possible that the Soviets did actually REFUSE to come to Jaruzelskis help. Jaruzelski claims otherwise.
With all respects to JPII, I don't think the Russian blinked because the Pope wrote a "stern letter". If that letter was written on Dec. 16th, that would have been after the declaration of Martial Law.
The Pope did have an important influence on Solidarnosc. He urged the movement to stay peaceful, and they did. It is very well possible that in that respect the Pope and Breshnev came to an agreement.
We know that there were troop movements but it's unclear whether an invasion was imminent or not.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-04-12 3:59:31 PM||   2005-04-12 3:59:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 TGA.. late 1980.. not late 1980S.. Gorbachev didn't take over for another 4 years. Check your dates.
Posted by Dishman  2005-04-12 4:13:58 PM||   2005-04-12 4:13:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I still remember a classic Steve Kelley oped cartoon: showed Jaruzelski playing a pinball machine called "Martial Law", showing Game Over, and turning to his daddy Brezhnev and demanding "more quarters!"
Posted by Frank G  2005-04-12 4:15:42 PM||   2005-04-12 4:15:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Yes I misread that one, but the events (troop movements) happened in late 1981, not 1980.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-04-12 4:21:58 PM||   2005-04-12 4:21:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 OK, the dates are confusing here. Brzezinski was serving in the Carter administration, that would indeed be 1980.
I don't think that account is correct
Posted by True German Ally 2005-04-12 4:38:13 PM||   2005-04-12 4:38:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 It seems extremely implausible to me that Brezhnev and the politburo would have altered their reading of the "correleation of forces" based on a "stern letter" from the pope....
Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-04-12 5:25:23 PM||   2005-04-12 5:25:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 I'd rather think they decided to kill him instead.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-04-12 5:28:41 PM||   2005-04-12 5:28:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Nice summation TGA.
Posted by Kellog Briand 2005-04-12 6:58:19 PM||   2005-04-12 6:58:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 The USCCB? - before JP-II it was heading toward becoming the limp Episcopalian shadow of what the Church should be - it was that version of the USCCB that started accepting gays tacitly, softneing the liturgy, and flirting with Communism in the guise of "Liberation Theology". That bunch started the whole ball rolling that would hit with the paedophile scandal 2 decades later.

As for the assertions: Damn. I didnt know they had already declassified that kind of stuff. And I tend to disbelieve it.

Reagan talked the talk, and damn sure walked the walk. I pretty much doubt the Gipper asked for the Pope's blessings. Probably treated the Pope pretty much the same way he treated the Euros and the Communists: said what he was going to do and then did it. Maybe with the pope he shared details and the "why", but not much else different; probably was a bit more courteous, but nonetheless straight up.

I still remember some German bumper stickers from that time: "Better a Pershing in my yard than an SS-20 in my roof" - a sentiment I bet you never heard existed amongst Germans (Especially in Bayern and the border areas) due to the MSM's bias.

My guess is that the Gipper probably told the Pope something like the following:

"This is what I'm going to do, and why. What you do is up to you." Then he cobwoy'd the hell up and let 'em buck.

Any response from JP-II was more or less unimportant.
Posted by OldSpook 2005-04-12 6:45:47 AM||   2005-04-12 6:45:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by OldSpook 2005-04-12 6:45:47 AM||   2005-04-12 6:45:47 AM|| Front Page Top

00:15 Desert Blondie
00:02 Bomb-a-rama
23:54 Desert Blondie
23:49 Bomb-a-rama
23:43 3dc
23:13 Jame Retief
23:09 .com
23:06 Dennis Kucinich
22:58 phil_b
22:50 Whutch Sneth6118
22:35 James
22:33 Jonathan
22:30 RWV
22:19 Financial Advisor
22:07 Frank G
22:04 Pappy
21:58 Sock Puppet 0’ Doom
21:56 Angie Schultz
21:54 thibaud (aka lex)
21:50 thibaud (aka lex)
21:47 Sock Puppet 0’ Doom
21:45 thibaud (aka lex)
21:43 Jackal
21:40 Jackal









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