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2005-02-10 Israel-Palestine

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Posted by tipper 2005-02-10 00:45|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 But Hanna saved his most extreme rhetoric for his sermon of January 19, 2003 -- the Orthodox Epiphany:

"Palestine is from the (Mediterranean) sea to the (Jordan) river. We emphatically refuse any concession on (even) a grain of the land of our precious homeland. Just as Ramallah, Gaza, Nablus, and Jenin are Palestinian cities, so are Haifa, Nazareth, Jaffa, Ramle, Lod, Beersheba, Safed, and others Palestinian cities.

"The Zionist Jews are foreigners in this land. They have no right to live or settle in it. They should go somewhere else in the world to establish their state and their false entity."

These citations only enforce my suspicion that literal religionists are dangerous to this world. These folks are so obsessed with maps of centuries ago, that if their theory were carried out, few countries today would have recognizable borders--bringing anarchy to the world. A call for anarchy is a call for murder and untimely death-this, from a man of God. And with this numbskull's statements, we can see it's not just the Islamicists doing it. Hanna wants to punish the grandchildren of people 80 generations back for Jesus' death. This "sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons..." crap has got to end in our time.

Can't people be religious and live in the now at the same time?

Posted by Jules 187 2005-02-10 3:10:00 PM|| 2005-02-10 3:10:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 the greek orthodox in Palestine have traditionally been friendly to secular arab nationalism, as those in Syria and Lebanon have been friendly to Greater Syrian nationalism, and hostile to Maronite aspirations to an independent Lebanon. This has something to do with the way the Greek Orthodox are spread geographically, if I remember my Daniel Pipes (Greater Syria, The History of an Ambition) rightly. Probably has very little to do with the substance of Orthodox Christianity.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-02-10 3:35:04 PM|| 2005-02-10 3:35:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 There's the conspiracist theory I've heard, which says that some are intentionally pushing forward an alliance between Arabs and Orthodox against all Western elements.

Then there's *my* theory, which says that the Greek Orthodox Church and most of its bishops are simply corrupt and villainous to the bone and would ally themselves with any fascist, any racist, any tyrant as long as it gives them the tiniest of advantages. There's never been a dictator they've not liked.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-02-10 4:07:38 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-02-10 4:07:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Thanks, LH and AK, for the background.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-02-10 4:25:22 PM|| 2005-02-10 4:25:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Aris, are there any examples that you are aware of regarding your theory? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, just ... it would be nice to have some data. (GOC behavior in WWII may provide some background, perhaps).

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-02-10 4:33:01 PM|| 2005-02-10 4:33:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 well jules, you do realize AK and I are taking completely different positions? :)

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-02-10 4:41:39 PM|| 2005-02-10 4:41:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I figured that you had different points of view in at least one regard (religion in general), but I was thanking you both mostly because your background in the history of the area is far better than mine, I think.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-02-10 5:04:53 PM|| 2005-02-10 5:04:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Aris, are there any examples that you are aware of regarding your theory? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, just ... it would be nice to have some data. (GOC behavior in WWII may provide some background, perhaps).

I'm not familiar with what the Greek Orthodox Church did back then. Moreover the situation then is not so clear-cut, because the Greek government of the time (even if fighting on the side of the Allies) was also ruled by a dictator, Metaxas.

But as just a hint of the stench of corruption that exists atleast now, here's some (relatively recent) accusations for assasination plots in the Jerusalem Patriarchate:
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100010_06/05/2003_29291/

Whether this is assassination, or merely slander of assassination, you can see what atleast one of two top bishops there is willing to do to the other.

Even more recently, this past weeks, the scandals of corruption enfolding the church: http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100004_05/02/2005_52630
I had made a brief reference to the situation recently in my livejournal.

For my claims regarding their support of dictators, I'd have to dig back far further and pick you phrases of bishops exonerating various tyrants' supposedly patriotic virtues, and the more general support for all sort of nationalistic/imperialistic causes. That'd be a rather more time-consuming task and I don't have the time now.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-02-10 5:27:37 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-02-10 5:27:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Aris:
I am certain you know a lot more about this sort of thing than I do, but aren't you painting the Greek Orthodox church with a rather wide brush? Surely there are "good" and "bad" high ranking church officials.

Posted by Secret Master 2005-02-10 5:41:37 PM|| 2005-02-10 5:41:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Aris, thanks. No rush on the "phrases of bishops exonerating various tyrants' supposedly patriotic virtues" and such. Just when you stumble across it, I am sure it may be an interestng theme for a post here.

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-02-10 5:43:01 PM|| 2005-02-10 5:43:01 PM|| Front Page Top

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