Article

2005-01-27 Europe

Time running out to stop Kosovo's descent in violence

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Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-27 2:02:04 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Well Thank GOD, Allah and Buddah all at once. It's hot here in Thailand and it stinks with all of these dead bodies around. I'd much rather lunch in Brussels.

Posted by UN Weenie 2005-01-27 9:00:16 AM|| 2005-01-27 9:00:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Sounds like it's time for another conference. Can I get my usualy catering fee this time, dad: cost plus 150 percent?

Posted by AnnansDiscountCatering 2005-01-27 9:10:12 AM|| 2005-01-27 9:10:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Classic case of Muslim intolerance. I've stated before that Serbia needs a strong leader not a cow-towing UN Weenie. The map of Europe can longer afford to be changed. If Kosovo becomes independent it will lead to yet another welfare state the EU will have to financially support. More importantly another launch pad for Muslim extremists to infiltrate into Europe. Kosovo will drain Europe financially and militarily. Bring Slodo back from the Hague and let him crush this rebellion. If the Kosovars are such sweeties why hasn't Albania absorbed more of them. Thanks for all the help Turkey. Not only did you screw us in Iraq, but you continue tacit support of the Chechen quagmire. Your hideous Ottoman Empire has spawned these Muslim states in Europe proper which can't seem to get along with anyone. PS thanks for all your support for the Azeri's I'm sure the Armenians and Cypriots appreciate all the help. Definately a strong candidate for the EU

Posted by Rightwing 2005-01-27 9:13:44 AM|| 2005-01-27 9:13:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Wait, and see who comes to unca Sam, hat in hand.

Posted by gromgorru 2005-01-27 9:41:35 AM|| 2005-01-27 9:41:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 As long as I get my catering business, I don't care who holds Uncle Sam's coat.

Posted by AnnansDiscountCatering 2005-01-27 9:43:39 AM|| 2005-01-27 9:43:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I am on the fence about Kosovo, given the treatment they (Kosovars) recieved from Serbia over the last couple of decades. Picture what Saddam did to the Kurds (less the gas) and that gives you a base for how they feel. I also feel that since all the provinces were allowed to go their on way, why not Kosovo? If Slovenia can break away and become it's own country why not let the Kosovars determine their future? They may be 'intolerant' but the Serbs taught them all about tolerance.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2005-01-27 10:16:03 AM|| 2005-01-27 10:16:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 perhaps our moral and intellectual superiors, Aris and the EU, could handle this and STFU about Iran. Let us handle the really big problems outside your neighborhood. Although this may be over their competence level, you should tackle it. Keep the tut-tutting to yourselves as well.

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-27 10:24:01 AM|| 2005-01-27 10:24:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 A Marshal Tito is needed. That kind of strong leadership is pretty much all these disputatious people understand. Their nature is not to be peaceful and get along with others. They don't even get along amongst themselves. Their evolution as a ethnic group is retarded so much that they don't fit well with any other group of people. Do they even get along with other ethnic Albanians?

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-01-27 11:04:27 AM|| 2005-01-27 11:04:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 The problems in the former Yugoslavia are Europe's problem. If they cannot deal with a donneybrook in their backyard, then they cannot deal with anything. I understand that the issue of Kosovo being used as a base for Islamic extremists is a serious one. It is about time for the EU to sh*t or get off the pot. THEY need to be faced with this serious issue and be forced to deal with it.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2005-01-27 11:31:38 AM|| 2005-01-27 11:31:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 ..unless the EU takes urgent action, senior diplomats and international experts warned in Brussels this week.

"Hello? EU? Uncle Sam here. It's your turn; this is YOUR backyard and quite frankly, we're busy so we're going to sit this one out. Good luck."

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-01-27 2:31:28 PM|| 2005-01-27 2:31:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 If this ends up like the last one, I say let's sit it out. Being a hegemon is so last century.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-27 2:39:04 PM|| 2005-01-27 2:39:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 And when did we finally pull our troops out? Two months ago? What a clusterf.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-27 2:44:22 PM|| 2005-01-27 2:44:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Mrs D-
Re 11 :)

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-27 2:47:41 PM|| 2005-01-27 2:47:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Frank G, since I see that your obsession about me still hasn't diminished, just let me remind you that I had opposed the Kosovo bombings, claiming that they did nothing but promote Albanian imperialism and create an anti-Serb ethnic cleansing from *their* side, when most of the rest of Rantburg was praising Kosovo for the multiethnic paradise that it had supposedly become after the USA intervention.

Can you parse the above paragraph or do you need smaller sentences, you fucktard?

If the Kosovars are such sweeties why hasn't Albania absorbed more of them.

It's Albanian imperialism, the only European territorial imperialism still undefeated (besides Russian). That means they want to increase the territory of their nation, not retreat their external minorities within the border of the nation-state they already possess.

You keep on talking about Muslim extremists, when you forget that this is national imperialism of the Balkan variety. Religion has a very secondary role in this.

If Slovenia can break away and become it's own country why not let the Kosovars determine their future?

Slovenia was a federal republic of Yugoslaviain its own right, and constitutionally empowered to withdraw. Kosovo was an autonomous region of Serbia, with no rights of withdrawal. That's the legal argument.

The moral argument is that Slovenes had no other national state of their own, *Slovenia* was the state of their peoples. Albanians already have a nation-state. The wish for Kosovar independence, is a disguise for Greater Albanian imperialism. They don't want Kosovo to be independent, they want a Great Albania that will contain all the Albanian minorities of the region. Hence, the similar attempts to steal away territory from FYRO Macedonia as well.

Give Kosovo independence, and you'll not be approving a wish for national independence, all you'll be doing is rewarding Albanian imperialism.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-27 6:34:29 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-27 6:34:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 that's one sentence run-on (poorly) into "the above paragraph". Poor engrish ~~y'all~~ fucktard.

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-27 6:41:17 PM|| 2005-01-27 6:41:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Hence, the similar attempts to steal away territory from FYRO Macedonia as well.

It's simply called Macedonia, Aris.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-27 6:44:14 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-27 6:44:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 that's one sentence run-on

Actually it's not. "Run-on sentence" has a specific meaning, it doesn't mean simply "sentence with multiple commas".

It's simply called Macedonia, Aris

So's a sizeable region in Greece. One wants to be specific when talking about this stuff.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-27 6:50:30 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-27 6:50:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Okay, Aris, sounds like you know what to do with your little Kosovo/Albania/Macedonia tasks. Now you and your EU go handle them and we will handle Iran. I don't care how you handle them, just don't have a little hissy fit when The Great Satan finally gives the mullahs their due. Besides, not much of the fallout will land in the EU anyway.

Posted by Tom 2005-01-27 7:04:41 PM|| 2005-01-27 7:04:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 "Okay, Aris, sounds like you know what to do with your little Kosovo/Albania/Macedonia tasks. Now you and your EU go handle them and we will handle Iran."

"You" will handle Iran? I hope so, but I don't see it happening.

As for me "handling them", I'm on it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-27 7:14:27 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-27 7:14:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 So's a sizeable region in Greece. One wants to be specific when talking about this stuff.

So call it by it's real name, and refer to the other one as "the region in Greece known as Macedonia". Or simply let context indicate which one you mean -- my daily commute takes me through California, but no one would ever take that to mean I cross the continent twice a day. And only rarely does anyone confuse a Miami in Ohio with a Miami in Florida.

Of course, my impression of the "FYRO" crap is that it's a bunch of hyper-nationalist claptrap, with Greeks unwilling to let people even consider that Alexander might not have been from Greece.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-27 7:17:19 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-27 7:17:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 So call it by it's real name, and refer to the other one as "the region in Greece known as Macedonia".

Do you typically call Taiwan by its real name, that being "Republic of China"?

When EU starts recognizing it as Republic of Macedonia, I'll start calling it such as well. Until then I'm still hoping-without-hope for a compromise name which will appease paranoid fears that Greek chauvinists try to instill on the population. "Macedonia of Skopje" would be good. Or even "Northern Macedonia". "New Macedonia" sounds like crap, but still better than nothing.

Of course, my impression of the "FYRO" crap is that it's a bunch of hyper-nationalist claptrap,

Yeah, I'm well known as a hyper-nationalist.

with Greeks unwilling to let people even consider that Alexander might not have been from Greece.

Well, he kinda *was*, if by "Greece" you mean the territory currently known as that name, namely both his birthplace and the capital of his empire is currently within the boundaries of the "Greek region known as Macedonia"...

... and if you're talking modern-day ethnicities, other than the descent of our language I don't know any common element between the modern Greek people and the ancient Greek people, so in many ways he wasn't "ours" either, but then again neither was Pericles or Socrates...

...but then again he was even less "Macedonian" since the modern day slav-Macedonians don't even have the linguistic connection with that time, they are northern peoples that descended far afterwards...

So both territorially and ethnically Alexander isn't "theirs", and he's probably hardly anyone's, besides History's.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-27 7:32:16 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-27 7:32:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 *snort*

In short, so long as the EU tells you to, you'll go along with the paranoid fears instilled by the Greek chauvanists. No chance of you simply rejecting the paranoid fears and calling Macedonia what it wants to be called? You know, make a stand, be a good example, maybe change a few minds.

I'd think it would be a stunningly easy thing to do, especially on something so trivial. At least do it while you're at Rantburg, even if you don't do it around other Greeks.

Ah well. Never mind. I get your point: your government says it's 'X', so you'll go along.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-27 7:44:13 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-27 7:44:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 you'll go along with the paranoid fears instilled by the Greek chauvanists.

Um, no. I don't believe in the paranoid fears instilled by the Greek chauvinists. The Greek chauvinists don't want a compromise in the name at all. If I were a Greek chauvinist, I'd be calling it "Skopje".

What I want is a name, that'll make it easier for our two nations to live side-by-side -- namely I want a name that'll defang the Greek chauvinists of *some* of their power, by the fact of not being able to be interpreted as laying territorial claims.

And among other things, I do want a name that reminds people that more than 50% of the region once known as Macedonia lies outside that small country.

No chance of you simply rejecting the paranoid fears and calling Macedonia what it wants to be called?

I'm afraid of the fear itself, the way everyone should be afraid of it also. The EU was the only thing that forced Greece to stop a catastrophic embargo against FYRO Macedonia. Now the uncompromised name will be the excuse that the Greek chauvinists will use to block FYRO Macedonia's entry into the EU.

So, yeah, I'm favouring a compromise in the name. We live in the real world, not a universe of ideal solutions where everyone is 100% happy.

More on the issue, I'd posted here: http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/28307.html

Robert, why didn't you answer on whether you are calling Taiwan Taiwan or whether you are using its real name?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-27 7:59:41 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-27 7:59:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 If I had a reason to refer to them formally, I'd use their formal name. In the US, "Taiwan" is the commonly used name, so I'd normally use that.

I certainly wouldn't use whatever name the PRC insists on using for them, simply out of fear.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-27 8:10:20 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-27 8:10:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 "In the US, "Taiwan" is the commonly used name, so I'd normally use that."

But you nonetheless object to my using the commonly used name of FYRO Macedonia in Greece?

In fact among the *two* commonly used names of FYRO Macedonia in Greece, I used the one that actually contains the word "Macedonia".

Sure, making a stand and simply calling "Republic of Macedonia" is the path that *some* people have chosen. Perhaps they are right, though since I do prefer a compromise, it's not the path I've chosen.

But don't go about lecturing on me, when I'm doing what you yourself just said you are doing -- using one of the commonly used names in each person's own country.

I certainly wouldn't use whatever name the PRC insists on using for them, simply out of fear.

No, if you were Chinese, I'm sure you'd be not be doing it out fear, you'd be doing it out of Chinese nationalism.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-27 8:19:07 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-27 8:19:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 *sigh*

Never mind, Aris. It's clear the newspeak nature of "FYRO" doesn't grate on your nerves like it does mine.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-27 8:26:25 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-27 8:26:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 One of the characteristic of newspeak was that all terms used in politics had to have an inherent positive or negative meaning so as to combine (and thus destroy) meanings.

Examples of newspeak: "Death tax", "Pro-life", "EUrabia", "Eurorealist" as opposed to the more neutral "Inheritance estate tax" or "anti-abortionist" or "European Union" or "Eurosceptic"

Even "socialist" is soon becoming newspeak when it's used by conservatives as a useful word to combine and destroy the different meanings of European-style socialdemocracy and USSR-style "socialistic" tyranny.

The nature of "FYRO Macedonia" doesn't seem very newspeak-like with that criterion. It doesn't combine and destroy meanings, it doesn't have an inherent positive or negative feel. It's an abbreviation but not one meant to distance the mind from the actual words and concepts discussed.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-27 8:48:30 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-27 8:48:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Like I said, Aris: Never mind.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-27 9:06:39 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-27 9:06:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Lets have a UN conference. Then Aris can tell us how much he knows and how little we know, and we can all get fat on fois gras, filet mignon and French Champagne!

Whaddya say? Cost plus 150 percent.

Posted by AnnansDiscountCatering 2005-01-27 9:10:40 PM|| [http://www.feed-the-annans.org] 2005-01-27 9:10:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Ah, screw it. This time give the Serbs carte blanche, and let the muslims have a serving of the sh*t sandwich they insist on feeding the rest of the world.

Posted by BH 2005-01-27 9:30:34 PM|| 2005-01-27 9:30:34 PM|| Front Page Top

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