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2005-01-25 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Pete Stanley 2005-01-25 2:19:40 AM|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 from yesterday's page...
"But I'm still missing a puzzle piece. Why, if Saddam supported them, and they supported Saddam, did he expell them after the Gulf War."

Methinks the answer is in the meaning of support. He supported the palestinians becuase there is no surer, and cheaper, and easier, way to make any middle-east diplomacy more difficult for the US. He didn't give two shits about the palestinians as people - only as a wedge to divide the middle east and arabia. (so palestinians making a living in kuwait doesn't help him much.) i think this is true for almost all the power players over there.

"Saddam being a pragmatist had no purpose for the Palestinians any longer."
re: my above statement... yes and no (if we're talking about the same time-frame).
he did still send out money to facilitate 'martyrdom'. He was a pragmatist alright. It seems to me that at the time when the odds of an American invasion were greatest, the intifada was in full gear.

Posted by Rawsnacks 2005-01-25 10:02:44 AM|| 2005-01-25 10:02:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I agree Rawsnacks that Saddam did in fact contribute to the Palestinian Intifada. Any swipes at Israel fit in with Arab loathing of Israel. Saddam's pragmatism reach it's end when he no longer wished to offer humanitarian support for the Paleo's. The price of 10k-25k was a samll price to pay for devastating suicide bombings. But, like his arab brethren in Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia there is no love for Palestinians themselves, just the destructive purpose they serve with regards to Israel.

Thanks for the rebuttal.

Posted by Rightwing 2005-01-25 11:45:53 AM|| 2005-01-25 11:45:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 re: the link by Pete Stanely above (Basit is Basit) -

this makes no sense to me at all:

commissioned former CIA director Jim Woolsey to fly to England to retrieve fingerprints of WTC bomber Ramzi Yousef, in order to show that Yousef was a "false double" inserted by Iraqi intelligence. The FBI objected to this wild-goose chase, but Wolfowitz insisted. As it turned out, the fingerprints disproved Mylroie's theoryâthey matched those of the Ramzi Yousef sitting in a U.S. federal prison

Should the bold above not read Abdul Basit? And that hardly answers the question of where is Basit, Basit's family and whether or not people who knew Basit from England think that the fake info on him in the Kuwaiti Ministry matches his real description. Afterall, at this current time, it would have been very easy to doctor more files and switch more fingerprints. Just saying "the fingerprints match Yousef's does nothing to dispute Mylorie's claim that we should speak to people who knew Basit and compare what he really looked like to the possibly doctored information in Kuwait.

Just more media lies and distortions - as we have come to expect. And the fact that the reporter didn't even know to write "Basit" instead of "Yousef" shows he was an clueless idiot, at best.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-25 1:04:17 PM|| 2005-01-25 1:04:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Secondly thanks for helping me to better understand.

That Sadaam used the Paleo fundies in his midst and screwed them in the end reinforces your point.

This article is freaking unbelievable. You can only be left with the impression that someone inside the FBI was complict in Saddam's plans.

I don't have much time - so if anyone is interested I'll try to expand my thoughts later.

But look at the overall picture here. You have Nosair AN KNOWN IRAQI AGENT!! convicted in 1991 with local fundi's turning up for the parade. Somebody somewhere in the FBI chooses Salem, an FBI informant with ties to Egyptian intelligence to be the provocateur. Ok...fine. That Salem would connect with Salemeh, whose uncle is a well known PLO terrorist who "became number two in the 'Western Sector', a PLO terrorist unit under Iraq influence" and living in Baghdad isn't all that surprising either - ok....still fine.

And it's highly plausible that if the bozo Salemeh called his uncle in multiple phone conversations that Sadaam could pick up on the phone conversations and see a golden opportunity for revenge plans already being contemplated by Saddam.

But how is it, if Salem is a provocateur for the FBI that the FBI fails to notice these phone conversations as well. I mean, it's not like that don't know that Nosair is an Iraqi agent. It's not like they don't know that Salameh's uncle is a well know PLO terrorist under Sadaam's influence in Baghdad. How on earth could it be that the FBI would not have also noted these same phone conversations!!!!

But look at the freaking time line here:

Around the beginning of 1992, the FBI sets up Salem as a plant and Salameh is "soon" recruited by him. Almost immediately after he calls his PLO terrorist uncle, under Sadaam's control in Baghdad, on June 21st Yasin, (also a paleo fundi) shows up and moves in with his brother Musab (also a paleo fundi) WHO JUST SO HAPPENS TO LIVE IN THE SAME BUILDING AS SALAMEH. Oh really - isn't that just a bit too convenient? I'd like to know, and Mylorie doesn't tell us, WHEN did MUSAB, bother of Yasin, move next door to Salameh.

YET IT IS PRECISELY AT THIS POINT - WHEN IT SUDDENLY SHOULD HAVE COME TO THE FBI'S ATTENTION THAT SALAMEH WAS CONVERSING WITH HIS TERRORIST UNCLE IN BAGHDAD AND YASIN MOVES INTO HIS BROTHER'S APT CONVENIENTLY SHARED BY SALAMEH THAT THE FBI LOSES TRACK OF HIM!! LESS THAN A MONTH BEFORE YOUSEF SHOWS UP!!!!

I'm sorry.

We are told that it is because Salem, the plant, refuses to file the necessary paperwork or cooperate that the FBI loses track. But it is RIGHT AT THIS POINT THAT THE FBI LOSES TRACK. Let's remember that Salem has ties with Egyptian Intelligence, thus a potential double agent and somewhat suspect- witness by dropping him that even the FBI seems to agree. But please note it is IMMEDIATELY AFTER Salameh's phone converstations WHICH SHOULD have been noted by our own FBI as well AND AT EXACTLY THE SAME POINT IN TIME THAT SADDAM BECOMES INTERESTED, that the FBI backs off. Coincidence - yeah right.

IN Sept 1, 1992, barely a month later, Yousef arrives in JFK and they work on their plans unnoticed by the FBI.

I'm sorry. I think someone needs to be looking at WHO, exactly who, a name-attached-who decided to drop this case at this point. They are solely responsible for the first attack on the WTC. And who picked Salem as the provocateur?

Also, I think it very interesting that Yousef waited until AFTER the election to start making his bomb. So he waits until AFTER the election to start making phone calls to make a bomb - activities that MOST CERTAINLY should have caught the FBI's attention - especially since he was living with a known terrorist wannabe - yet miraculously the FBI does not notice. Could it be that he waited until after the election so that whoever was providing top cover for these incredible oversights would not be removed in political shifting?

Hey - many things can be coincidences but there are just too many oversights here to be plausible. Unfreakingreal.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-25 1:59:12 PM|| 2005-01-25 1:59:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I suppose it could be that Salem - once granted his position as a provocateur, expanded his opportunities to become a double agent against the US. But it seems that if the US FBI dropped him if? this became apparent - that they would have paid MORE attention to Salameh, not less.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-25 2:06:23 PM|| 2005-01-25 2:06:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 OK, a couple of misconceptions here. Let's start with mine: sorry for double-posting the article! I honestly couldn't find it.

Second, the Palestinian residents of Kuwiat. They were generally supportive of Saddam's invasion in August 1990. After Kuwait was liberated, then the Kuwaiti government expelled them en masse, because of their behavior. I found it interesting that an outright majority fled to Al-Zarqaa, the very spot where Zarqawi came from, and that so many of these families are apparently sending their young men to fight for the Iraqi Baath even now. Yet another link, which I speculated on in a comment here.

>>Should the bold above not read Abdul Basit?<<

Well, for the sake of clarity, yeah, it probably should read that. But I knew what he meant. And you're right that there would have been ample time for fingerprint-switching, if they had only official records to go by. Even if the Iraqis hadn't been careful with their spycraft initially, the Mylroie article appeared in late 1995, and no-one (apparently) checked the fingerprints till early 2001.

>>And the fact that the reporter didn't even know to write "Basit" instead of "Yousef" shows he was an clueless idiot, at best.<<

The guy I linked to isn't a reporter, but a blogger doing this on his own time. And I don't believe him to be an idiot, not in the least. The Hatfill Project is one of the best analysis-blogs I've seen on the war, on par with The Belmont Club or Alphabet City, or the editors here. I disagree with him on this issue, and a few others. But he's no fool.

>>Hey - many things can be coincidences but there are just too many oversights here to be plausible. Unfreakingreal.<<

It's good, and healthy, to be extremely suspicious of coincidences in this area. But in this case I think it's been adequately explained. There was some explanation in The Cell but a very detailed explanation of the FBI's blunders in 1000 Years for Revenge. Basically (I'm going by memory here) the FBI put an ex-cop in charge of the investigation, whose name was Carson Dunbar. He'd been a high muckety-muck in the NJ State Police before joining the FBI. He took a law enforcement mindset to the whole thing, not a counter-intelligence mindset. And this basically sunk the case, because he insisted Salem wear a wire and possibly even testify in open court. Salem (rightly, in my opinion) refused to do these things. When Salem started resisting these things, Dunbar started to get upset about Salem's intelligence ties, and rumors started that Agent Nancy Floyd (who was basically running Salem as her agent) wasn't being "objective." And so Floyd was ordered to sever contact with Salem, despite her misgivings and Salems.

Salem actually said at their last meeting, with bitterness, "don't call me when the bombs go off." But then when a bomb did go off, they of course activated him. Salem was integral to stopping the Day of Terror plot, whereby the blind Sheikh's cell would bomb the UN and several tunnels around NYC. So I don't think there was a mole in the FBI or DoJ or anything - just dumbassness.

>>Also, I think it very interesting that Yousef waited until AFTER the election to start making his bomb.<<

That's a good observation, one I hadn't considered. Perhaps Yousef was waiting for maximum disruption that would come at the top of the DoJ. Perhaps Yousef got explicit orders to test the new president's reaction.

Posted by Pete Stanley 2005-01-25 3:45:39 PM|| 2005-01-25 3:45:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Pete, thanks for responding. First - let me apologize to the blogger noted. I thought it was from a reporter - and so I bow down humbly and acknowledge that it's far easier for a blogger - thoughts flying off fingers - to make minor mistakes such as that. God help me if that were a sin.

It's the first time I've read this report - despite it being much referred to, and it's just shocking, to say the least. I should read more about what's been already written before I say more.

But..can't help myself...

It's easy to believe that at the time, the enforcement mindset would have prevailed and the explanation given is plausible.

It seems likely, from what you say about Salem, that he was not complicit in wanting the bombs to ever explode.

If Salem was on the "level", I'm left wondering, who found whom? Did Salem find Salameh? Or did Salameh find Salem. If it were the latter and Musab moved in after June of 1992 - it gives me more pause. But NYC is probably not all that big in terms of paleo fundies of a terrorist mindset. Regardless...it's all meaningless musing on my part.

And you know...I'm sorry...but Salameh, a player in a sting operation, started making phone calls to his uncle who was a well known terrorist - at time and consistency that can only leave me to wonder: how is it possible that no one in the FBI took note??

On June 10 - he's recruited into the plot. June 21 Abdul Yasin moves into his building. And in "early July" they "lost track of the Nosair-Salameh conspiracy". All after long phone calls from Salameh to his famous uncle took place. Phone calls that it's staggering to think were not noted by the FBI.

I guess I just have to wonder, was it Dumbbo's, I mean Dunbar's idea to make demands that clearly Salem would refuse - or did it come from someone above?

But I digress, you were talking about Paleos being expelled from Kuwait- and how they came to Al Zarqaa - the very place where Zarqawi came from - which is a whole nother (is that a word) subject indeed. That's very intriguing...and I'd love to read more about those connections :-)

Posted by 2b 2005-01-25 4:49:25 PM|| 2005-01-25 4:49:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 which is a whole nother (is that a word) subject Its not a word, but it is a common Americanism. To which you are certainly entitled, after all that analysis. Whew!

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-25 6:28:56 PM|| 2005-01-25 6:28:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 And Hatfill project leaves me even more confused....so here's another thing I don't understand. From Mylroie's paper, we are told that "Ramzi Yousef arrived at JFK with an Iraqi passport without a visa" and stayed with Musab Yasin. I guess we are to assume, though she doesn't precisely say, that he used the name Ramzi Yousef. Elsewhere in the article she says he was known among the Fundo's as Rashid, the Iraqi.

Now...here's an interesting random thought. Nov 9, 1992, just after the green light was given for the plot - he reports his Abdul Basit passport stolen. He makes calls to people later found to be along the way of his escape routes. On Dec 31, 1992, New Year's Eve, a night sure to be understaffed, he goes to the Pakistani consulate in NY with old documents to request a new passport - which they give to him.

January, they build the bomb and Feb 23 the rent the truck - the bomb explodes at noon the 26th - the anniversary of the war.

"That evening, Salameh drove Yousef and Ismail to JFK airport; Yousef escaped to Pakistan on the falsified docs and Ismail flew home to Jordan. But Salemeh looks to have been deliberately left behind by Yousef, not provided any money needed for the ticket. Salameh had a ticket to Amsterdam on Royal Jordanian flight 262 which continues onto Amman, dated for March 5th, but it was an infant ticket that had cost him only $65. While Salameh had been able to use this ticket to get himself a Dutch visa, he could not actually travel on it."

Now, Mylroie doesn't tell us when they bought these tickets. Was it that day? No does she tell us when Salameh used the infant ticket to get his visa. At some point after the bomb explodes Salameh realizes he is desperate for money - thus he realized his ticket was no good. He has no money to upgrade it and desperate - Salameh returns to get the refund on the rental van 4 times before being picked up on the 4th.

Later we are told that Abdul Rahman was picked up because of the phone number used on the rental van..calm, cool and collected, he manages to fly out on the very flight that Salameh was supposed to catch on March 5th.

Now...don't you wonder about this? Why was Salameh so desperate for money - if his ticket was dated for the 5th? He must have found out ahead of time, that it was an infant ticket, no?

This is just a random brainstorm thought, but on the eve of the bombing, obviously everyone thought they had a flight out of the country with no problems. We are told that Yousef left Salameh behind with no money - to take the blame. But what if Yousef was screwed as well? Did he perhaps worry that just in case something went wrong that he had an alternate passport - one in his old name - using his old documents to procure it. A failsafe?

What if after the the bomb went off, Yousef suddenly discovers that he too has been cut off - no money to purchase tickets (or some other reason that Yousef is forced to buy himself a ticket under his own name, using his failsafe passport).

Just a random thought :-)

Posted by 2b 2005-01-25 6:52:14 PM|| 2005-01-25 6:52:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 tw and pete...sorry for a-nother long post, but thinking on Pete's comment and rereading the Basit is basit post - it was one of those thought bubbles I had to burst to get out of my head :-)

Posted by 2b 2005-01-25 7:02:48 PM|| 2005-01-25 7:02:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#11
Now...don't you wonder about this? Why was Salameh so desperate for money - if his ticket was dated for the 5th? He must have found out ahead of time, that it was an infant ticket, no?

As I understand it, Salameh was left with only enough cash for the infant ticket, so he bought it. He needed cash to upgrade it to an adult ticket, so tried to report the van stolen.

As for Salameh calling his uncle -- I don't think his uncle's identity was known BEFORE the bombing, but only after.

There was some speculation that Salem was an Egyptian agent, in the US to keep an eye on the blind sheik and to set him up if possible. That's one of the reasons the higher-ups at the FBI were suspicious of him; they didn't want to get used in a foreign intelligence operation.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-25 7:07:01 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-25 7:07:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 ok...but before I give it a rest, I want to make one more point - just from the reading of this.

Maybe I missed it, but one thing that is vague and seems to be intentionally so in this article - is what name Yousef used when he came into the country. She says, "Ramzi Yousef arrived at JFK with an Iraqi passport without a visa" and stayed with Musab Yasin"

But they never actually tell us that the name Ramzi Yousef is on that passport. Later she says he was known as "Rashid the Iraqi" by his collegues in NY - and later she says that, "it should be clear to the world that the bomber's real name is not Ramzi Yousef nor Abdul Basit. Afterall, why would someone intending to blow up NY's tallest tower go to such trouble to get a passport in his own name? Yousef was a man of many passports".

Is she talking about using Basit here, or Yousef, or both? It clearly NOT clear.

We are never, ever told that he used the name "Yousef" to enter the country or that he used that name while here - it's all just general talking about Yousef - never confirmation that's the name he used prior to the bombing or on the visa that he used to get into the country. Look carefully and you will see that I am right.

In fact she says, "The first concrete knowledge we have of Ramzi Yousef/Abdul Basit comes in 1991 when he showed up in the Phillipines". Again intentionally vague - what name was he using then? We don't know and she doesn't say.

Re: the justice dept she says, "Moreover, it has decided to try the bomber as Ramsi Yousef - even though no one, including yousef by now, maintains that is his real name."

Don't know what it means - but just pointing it out for others to see. Now maybe it's all just implied and clear if you know more about this case - but in this document - he's referred to as Yousef - but it's not clear that's the name he was using.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-25 8:09:14 PM|| 2005-01-25 8:09:14 PM|| Front Page Top

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