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2004-12-30 Iraq-Jordan
U.S. Launches Offensive After Iraq Ambush
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Posted by Fred 2004-12-30 00:00:00|| || Front Page|| [11123 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 They still haven't gotten the message. Make Ghaziliya Fallujah II - and bounce the fucking rubble a few times. There just is no substitute for brute power with the Sunnis in general and the Ba'athists in particular. I can hear the opposition before I even hit submit, but they have absolutely no evidence that their approach (winning hearts 'n minds) works with these people. None. Zero. Zilch. Even in Fallujah we gave them so much notice that it was rediculous. That shit doesn't work. Try the hardass way a couple of times - live and learn, Allawi. My frustration level is maxxed out. I've been excoriated for it numerous times, but I'm saying it again: only one thing will register with these people and that's raw brute overwhelming force - and sans the 2 week heads-up, next time, dumbasses.
Posted by .com 2004-12-30 1:41:42 AM||   2004-12-30 1:41:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 .com: I've been excoriated for it numerous times, but I'm saying it again: only one thing will register with these people and that's raw brute overwhelming force - and sans the 2 week heads-up, next time, dumbasses.

The way I look at it - the Iraqis themselves have to be psychologically prepared for GI's slaughtering jihadis - who are, after all, Muslims - in heaps. After the recent mayhem, I think they are. Some of them are maybe ready to jump in themselves to kill these Islamic religious warriors.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-12-30 2:53:15 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2004-12-30 2:53:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Reluctantly, I agree PD. I only wish it were different, but reality says you whip the cur and reward the stalwart. Cause and effect are great operant conditioners. How do the Marines put it? “No greater friend, no worse enemy.”
Posted by cingold 2004-12-30 2:53:35 AM||   2004-12-30 2:53:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 ZF / cin - It may be the only thing that always works - as the Marines would likely say without hesitation.

[$0.02]
As for Arabs, if you are not dealing from a position of strength obvious to all parties, then you can expect games and stupid haggling crap - nothing substantive will transpire.

I learned a simple lesson shopping in SA back in '92. Go into a shop and pick out what you want. Put the price you're willing to pay, counted out, in a separate pocket from your other money. Go into any shop with that item. When approached - ask how much. Tell the guy what you are willing to pay. He sez no. Show him the money you're willing to pay, repeat your offer. He sez no. Turn to leave. 90% of the time he will call you back and do the deal. Once he's seen the money, if the deal is doable, it will be accepted.

If you ever compromise - a gesture of good will (such as Israel releasing prisoners - by now they should know better - in spades, it just boggles) - it will be snapped up and THAT will become the new starting point of negotiations. No goodwill is reciprocated - ever. You have merely demonstrated you are weak and they pocket it. Period. Then they press for more. Israel's actions regards prisoners must be based on the fact that they're eunuchs or turned double-agents or something. Even an idiot expat knows better than what I've seen Israel do, sans some really terrific explanation.

There is a world of learning in these 2 tiny little lessons regards Arabs. Make your offer clear. Make it clear no other will do. Never offer a goodwill gesture. Do what you say you are going to do - that will shock them out of their shoes - recall the "mountains of bodies and rivers of blood" BS from Saddam, Gulf War I. Exaggeration and stupid mustache cursing shows are their game. Show them you are a different breed - and you'll put them off their game. Say it. Do it. Show nothing but strength. That's the only way. They will get it quickly if you don't fold or go soft.

A consistent ruthless demonstration of power will earn you the status, the "honor", you need to change behavior. Then, with the status acknowledged, you can show mercy without being seen as weak.

Look at Zarqawi's actions, their response, and think about it. Obviously, he knows how it works. So does Al Jizz, et al - read their stuff and look at what they are attempting to undermine - they portray us as soft and decadent, yet murderous and indiscriminate about it (baby ducks, et al) - this is to deny us the Arab version of honor. Only ruthless hardcore hard boyz are honored. I keep waiting for Allawi - or somebody - to make this policy, not just an occasional thing.
[/$0.02]
Posted by .com 2004-12-30 5:10:03 AM||   2004-12-30 5:10:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 The heads up in Fallujah was not a heads up, it was waiting to see how the US election would turn out.
Posted by Cog 2004-12-30 5:40:39 AM||   2004-12-30 5:40:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Great picture - I assume it is from the Philippines campaign.

Is that the laziest dumb-ass stance on the guy in front, or what ? How is his sergeant letting him get away with that ?
Posted by Carl in N.H.  2004-12-30 8:35:17 AM||   2004-12-30 8:35:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 #4 ..a gesture of good will (such as Israel releasing prisoners - by now they should know better - in spades, it just boggles) - it will be snapped up and THAT will become the new starting point of negotiations

Basically those gestures from the Israeli side are to Foggy Bottom's pointed bayonet!
Posted by Cynic 2004-12-30 8:38:19 AM||   2004-12-30 8:38:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 israels had 40% less deaths from terror in 2004 than in 2003, and had less in 2003 than in 2002. The wall IS going up, and relations with arab states (Egypt, Tunisia) are improving. The bans and boycotts in the EU and elsewhere that were stirring in 2002 are history. Sharon needs no advice from anyone here, I daresay.

Re: Iraq. According to a post here, a Zarqawi aide was caught the other today in Mosul with a tip from an Iraqi. and in mosul it would probably have been a Sunni Arab (doubt Zarqs aides hang out on the Kurdish side of town) Another Zarq aide caught today. Every denial that we need more troops says what we really need is better intel. Most reports from the field indicate intel has dried up cause the Sunni Arabs (which is where the intel gotta come from) either A. Are afraid of the insurgents or B. Resent our hardball tactics (immediate response - aint nuttin we done that they havent done to each other a hundred times worse - absolutely true, and absolutely DONT matter - WE are the outsiders - and so, too are Shiites - bigoted thought that distinction may be) How much A, and how much B - take your pick - the softer headed types in the MSM say its all B. Almost everyone here will say. I think its both.

Which means - you gotta be hard as hell as the insurgents - BUT - collective punishment - EVERYBODY in a proinsurgent neighborhood gets it, period - WONT improve anything.

BUT - getting the bad guys, without hurting the fencesitters, and even the enablers, is damned hard. And MAY require more troops.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-12-30 9:13:30 AM||   2004-12-30 9:13:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Carl - that stance? Think of Aris in the Greek military in May....
Posted by Frank G  2004-12-30 11:22:22 AM||   2004-12-30 11:22:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Stop embarrassing yourself with your obsession with me, Frank.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-30 11:28:32 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2004-12-30 11:28:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I just enjoy our correspondences so much, I have to share...
Posted by Frank G  2004-12-30 11:47:08 AM||   2004-12-30 11:47:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 You popped up pretty quick, Aris. Stalking Frank G?
Posted by Tom 2004-12-30 12:07:36 PM||   2004-12-30 12:07:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 You are not making sense. Unlike with other Rantburgers, IIRC we two have never "corresponded" outside this forum, nor am I interested in doing so.

It's your obsession, not mine.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-30 12:08:53 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2004-12-30 12:08:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris: FrankG is linebacker size. Learn to roll tackle. ;o)
Posted by badanov  2004-12-30 12:10:01 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-12-30 12:10:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 wise advice - go for the ankles ;-)
Posted by Frank G  2004-12-30 12:14:35 PM||   2004-12-30 12:14:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Oy, more with the homophobic jokes, which would be amusing if they weren't disgusting.

Get over your crush on me, Frank: I'm straight so I can't accomodate you -- though you are so disgusting that I'd not be interested even if I was gay.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-30 12:21:54 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2004-12-30 12:21:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 not that there's anything wrong with that....

the ankle reference was re: the roll tackle, dumbass....now who's obsessing?
Posted by Frank G  2004-12-30 12:25:07 PM||   2004-12-30 12:25:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 me, me, it's all about me . . .
Posted by Aris Katsaris clone 2004-12-30 12:25:44 PM||   2004-12-30 12:25:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Posted that first response in 6:10... serendipity or stalking? We report, you decide.

The thread isn't about Son of Jan, and Son of Jan has contributed nothing to it except to bait multiple responses... useful commentary or trolling? We report, you decide.
Posted by .com 2004-12-30 12:26:05 PM||   2004-12-30 12:26:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 And as a sidenote Tom, since you don't seem to have once posted on any issue other than my own person, do I have any reason to believe you to be a real individual?

*downgrading you from annoying-brat to persona-constructed-for-trolling-purposes*
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-30 12:26:44 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2004-12-30 12:26:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Yes, I haven't contributed anything to the thread, other than responses to Frank's constant baiting and obsession.

But no worries, I'll be now emailing a request to Fred. He decides how this will end -- either with Frank, Tom and the rest ceasing their trollery, or with me leaving the forum for good. I've no more time to devote any more in dealing with the spoiled brats and random buffoons that think themselves smart in repeating the various oh-so-very-original homophobic innuendos.

And this time, you can consider that a promise.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-30 12:32:05 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2004-12-30 12:32:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 LH: Every denial that we need more troops says what we really need is better intel

That's always been our achilles' heel, and unless we can fix this failing, we're unlikely to succeed. Gerecht in Weekly Standard agrees. If I recall right he implied recently that the Iraqi forces have been thoroughly penetrated with ba'athist informants, which would underscore the idiocy of the Beinart-libhawk thesis that dismantling Saddam's army was a catastrophic error.

The shi'a are our best friends. I'm not sure that even Allawi is much help to us at this point. Time to (discreetly) hug Sistani and his people.
Posted by lex 2004-12-30 12:38:56 PM||   2004-12-30 12:38:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 And Frank -- just like .com yesterday, you are hiding behind your finger, thinking I'm too dim to notice your meaning, thinking that anyone is too dim to be misled by such innuendos. Peekaboo games you should have outgrown at the age of 2.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-30 12:39:32 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2004-12-30 12:39:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Aris - not trying to threadjack, but could you point me to a good site on the Greek tax system?

Thanks in advance.
Posted by Raj 2004-12-30 12:50:50 PM||   2004-12-30 12:50:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 If only Sistani was huggable, in any sense of the word I can see. Sigh. Better a semi-neutral rather than an active enemy - that's the best I can say for him, in particular. The regular Iraqi Shi'a, however, seem to be a tiny bit more open - just unwilling to do much about the bad guys. The trap laid yesterday for the Iraqi police is a classic example. After it happened, the bystanders told the reporter that they knew insurgents terrorists were staying there. And said nothing. So 6 policemen and, what, 17 (?) of their neighbors died. Will they get it now? Probably not.

And then there are the Kurds, long-suffering, stalwart, gutsy, fiesty, and ready for the future... I admire the hell out of them, heh.
Posted by .com 2004-12-30 12:55:37 PM||   2004-12-30 12:55:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#26  If I recall right he implied recently that the Iraqi forces have been thoroughly penetrated with ba'athist informants, which would underscore the idiocy of the Beinart-libhawk thesis that dismantling Saddam's army was a catastrophic error.

Im not absolutely convinced that just cause we've rushed Iraqi forces without proper vetting, that we couldnt have used some army units. Think about it. Most Saddam reliables were in Rep Guard, SRG, Fedayeen Saddam, etc as of March 1, 2003. I mean they could have planted reliables throughout the regular army units, but that would have meant both expecting to lose and counting on the US to keep the army intact. No evidence I know they did so. Since then, OTOH, as weve built Iraqi forces, theyve had every reason to, and time to, infiltrate people among the new recruits. So its at least POSSIBLE that regular Iraqi army units in March 2003 would have been LESS infiltrated than Iraqi Forces are now.

Secondly, what we needed the Iraqi Regulars for in April 2003 was quite different than what we need the Iraqi forces for now. Now we are fighting a bitter, complex, intell intensive counter insurgency campaign. Despite what the MSM may claim, no such insurgency existed in April 2003 - the insurgency isnt a spontaneous uprising, but something thats taken a long time to build. In April 2003 what we mainly needed was to stop looting, reduce street crime, and keep sufficient order to make the transition to CPA rule go more smoothly. Which, it is alleged, would have had a positive snowball effect. Its not clear to me that for those tasks a few infiltrators would have mattered all that much.

That said, let me point out that I have NOT previously suggested that the Iraqi army should have been kept intact. I have suggested we should have used more American troops (and weve already debated where they would have come from, so lets not start that again) Its amazing how so many theses are attached to me.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-12-30 1:13:31 PM||   2004-12-30 1:13:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Raj, I've no such site already in mind. I could search for such a one ofcourse, but so could you.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-30 1:23:44 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2004-12-30 1:23:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 No biggie, was wondering if you knew of one offhand. I'll look later, thanks.
Posted by Raj 2004-12-30 1:29:35 PM||   2004-12-30 1:29:35 PM|| Front Page Top

23:57 Bomb-a-rama
23:50 Zenster
23:50 WingedAvenger
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23:42 lex
23:40 lex
23:39 WingedAvenger
23:39 Bomb-a-rama
23:35 Poison Reverse
23:34 lex
23:32 lex
23:31 Sherry
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23:27 WingedAvenger
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23:23 Capt America
23:22 Poison Reverse
23:20 Sock Puppet of Doom
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23:10 WingedAvenger
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