Article

2004-11-24 Home Front: Politix

US doubles H-1B visa fees, tightens L-1 visa rules

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Steve White 2004-11-24 11:53:27 PM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Yeah...fuck this. I was just informed in Hong Kong last week that the Chinese government has increased visa fees for Americans, and reduced the max length of stay for businessmen (Class F visa) from one year to 30 days. I wondered what had caused them to kick back. This causes me no end of trouble, as probably I'm going to have to run to Hong Kong once a month (inconvenience and $$$) from now on. There's an immigration lawyer in Shanghai who says he can still get me a 1-year visa...hopefully it works.

All other Western nationalities get the red carpet...easy visas, multiple entry, long duration. Something to think about when we congratulate ourselves on bowing to organized labor.

Posted by gromky 2004-11-24 3:10:47 AM|| 2004-11-24 3:10:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 gromky: Yeah...fuck this. I was just informed in Hong Kong last week that the Chinese government has increased visa fees for Americans, and reduced the max length of stay for businessmen (Class F visa) from one year to 30 days. I wondered what had caused them to kick back. This causes me no end of trouble, as probably I'm going to have to run to Hong Kong once a month (inconvenience and $$$) from now on. There's an immigration lawyer in Shanghai who says he can still get me a 1-year visa...hopefully it works.

All other Western nationalities get the red carpet...easy visas, multiple entry, long duration. Something to think about when we congratulate ourselves on bowing to organized labor.

Sorry to hear about your personal situation. Sounds like the Chinese are really feeling their oats. Having said that, I hope they impose even more restrictions in the future. Every single move in this direction raises the cost of investment in China and decreases China's competitiveness. I hope they start discriminating against American investors in China, providing for even more horror stories about the Chinese money pit.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-24 3:28:12 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-24 3:28:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Amen, ZF. Sorry to hear about your problems, G. Wish I had something constructive to say about your problems.

Posted by N guard 2004-11-24 9:27:20 AM|| 2004-11-24 9:27:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Those in the automation tech side of the house have seen the damage of H1-Bs in the past decade. The game the businesses play is to advertize for a job openning with a laundry list of requirements that maybe 3 people in the entire country can put on their resume. Pick up several weeks of ComputerWorld magazine to see this practice. When they don't get a response, the business claims it can't hire an American and then imports a foreign tech though there is no follow up to insure that the new employee actually meets all the criteria of the original job posting. The whine that "we can't find qualified" is a joke. Then get the best qualified and pay for their training to bring them up to the specifications, binding them by contract for x number of years/months for the training. That's how the government covers its employment needs in the military. No. It's easier to get their congressmen to flood the market, so that business doesn't have to operate in real market system when it comes to supply and demand. Keeps labor prices down and profits up. This is just another form of the game low end employers play with illegals supplying labor, except its done in the boardroom and congressmen's offices.

Posted by Don 2004-11-24 10:58:55 AM|| 2004-11-24 10:58:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Keeps labor prices down and profits up.

Sorry, Don, but I know from direct experience that our companies simply cannot compete if they continue to pay $80+ per hour for US programming talent. The harsh fact of the matter is that the market has shifted to Indian rates. No one-- not a systems integrator, not a software vendor, not a corporate IT shop-- can afford to pay 1999-level salaries when the Indians can do the job 90% as well for 80% less money. Those days are gone.

Harsh, but that's the reality here, and it has zip to do with "corporate greed". Think Detroit vs Japan, ca 1978.

Posted by lex 2004-11-24 11:03:50 AM|| 2004-11-24 11:03:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Sorry Gromky, but companies in the US Tech industry have been screwing American workers over via the H1B process - it drops wages and reduces jobs available to US tech workers and favors companies that mislabel or reclassify jobs and bring in someon from India to do it for half of what they US worker was making prior to the "workforce realignmnet" that cost him his job.

This is not an "Organized Labor" issue - these are solid white-collar jobs that are vital to the nation: we need software and systems engineers to remain competitive in the world market, and experience is the big thing that makes innovation possilbe in this field. And as of now, we are giving all the experience away to H1B engineers while US ones are leaving the field - there is a massive loss of software expertise goign on, and in 10 years, the lack of "senior" enigneers willb e felt, in that US companies will not have any experienced US engineers to draw on - and will lose our edge. And lots of peopel I know in a lot of different industries have pressed out congressional reps to curb H1B, none of them belonging to labor unions.

We can'ta ll work for Walmart and expect to maintain our standard of liginv. H1B is one of those things that is killing the middle income and upper income technical job market. Its about time some one did something about it.

I have no pity for the H1B people, and if we take some return fire, oh f'ing well.

Its the Chinese you should be PO'd at. I've seen the job and pay casualties here from the H1B fiasco, and they far exceed any fees you face in Hong Kong.

In short, too f'ing bad - live with it, because a lot of US engineers have spoken to their congressmen and they congress acted to limit a runaway bogus program, H1B. If it inconveniences you that much, change your business.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-11-24 11:05:31 AM|| 2004-11-24 11:05:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 OS, your argument is identical to the ones made in the late 1970s by the auto industry when it clamored for protection from low-cost Japanese producers: "the US can't afford to lose its manufacturing base," "manufacturing's the backbone of the middle class", etc. During the last three decades, however, we have shed hundreds of thousands of auto and auto-related manufacturing jobs while dramatically increasing our national competitiveness, military prowess and standard of living.

The right solution is to teach our people to migrate their skills upward, into the areas where 22 year-old Indian kids can't compete. But let's not pretend that your average US Java programmer is worth 4x the Indians. The market doesn't agree, and is unwilling to pay 4x for work that is only marginally better.

Posted by lex 2004-11-24 11:14:12 AM|| 2004-11-24 11:14:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Migrate our skills up? Bogus.

Fine - but where do those people coming "up" gain the one thing they need to move up - namely experience? Its not liek you can make any kid out of college a decent VP of a company or head of a division - they need experience. Same goes for the software business: to move up the value chain, in this business, requires knowledge and experience of the previous level. Software production is not like automobile assembly - the skills at the bottom are strongly linked to the top in software. You don't have to be an assembly line worker in order to become an automotive engineer. But it does take experience as a decent coder to become a decent systems designer.

Thats why this is NOT like the steel and auto industry. These are knowledge creation jobs, not "plug in joe sixpack" which anyone off the street can do after a bit of training.

And unlike the auto industry, software is at the core of the advances in the economy.

Your analogies fall flat. You are simply wrong on this.

We are selling our white collar jobs in the future for walmart jobs. I know that there are fewer and fewer people entering the workforce in comp sci these days because H1B and "outsourcing" have been allowed to decimate the wages and jobs available. We may not see it now, but in 10 years, when the current batch of engineers starts retiring out (and all the other ones have "moved up"), we will lose immense amounts of experience that will not be replaced by those "moving up" - because there are not enough in the supply feed at the bottom.

And when that comes, who will we have to drive the IT business that exists inside each business today? And more importantly, what happens when all those finely trained H1B's return to their homeland? They take advantage of their EXPERIENCE here and compete directly with US companies with third-world pricing.

Its of strategic importance. And quite unlike steel and autos. We are eliminating an entire class of knowledge from our society - and one that is at the core of every economic advancement of the last quarter century.

How well will our defense industry staff itself when we run out of US engineers? How secure will we be dependant upon Inda, China or Pakistan for software engineers to make software our defense requires?

These arent the same as hard devices, these are pieces of knowledge and require high levels of expertise, experience and university training.

We are killing our future with the H1B program and basic short-sighted greed.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-11-24 12:34:44 PM|| 2004-11-24 12:34:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Having worked in high tech, I'm firmly convinced you're both correct. That's what's galling.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-24 12:41:36 PM|| 2004-11-24 12:41:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 OS: How well will our defense industry staff itself when we run out of US engineers? How secure will we be dependant upon Inda, China or Pakistan for software engineers to make software our defense requires?

No offense, OS, but I think we won't run out of US engineers. The defense industries have always had a problem competing with private enterprise for the best software engineers. Now that many of the private sector jobs are migrating abroad, the best and the brightest will have no choice but to work for defense contractors. Like haircuts and dental work, defense contracting is something that will never migrate overseas. Not only will defense contractors be able to hire the best and the brightest, they'll be able to hire them for less, since there won't be any real competition in the US private sector for their skills. This means new weapons systems will be more reliable and cheaper.

I sympathize with American workers in these fields who are stranded, but they are generally in better shape than the high school grads who were laid off from jobs on automobile and electronics assembly lines. This is a warning to white collar workers (including myself) who are fat and happy - the world does not owe you a living.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-24 12:47:30 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-24 12:47:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 ..but I know from direct experience that our companies simply cannot compete if they continue to pay $80+ per hour for US programming talent.

With the price of housing here in SV, anything short of that rate of pay kills any possibility of the purchase of one of the many overpriced homes on the market.... :)

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-11-24 2:12:30 PM|| 2004-11-24 2:12:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 The real acid test is this - why not H1-B the CEO and board's jobs? Heck if the demonstated none relationship between senior exec's pay and company performance is valid, then why not a cheaper company president, CEO and other senior management? Something tells me, that will not happen.

Posted by Don 2004-11-24 6:41:24 PM|| 2004-11-24 6:41:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Don: The real acid test is this - why not H1-B the CEO and board's jobs? Heck if the demonstated none relationship between senior exec's pay and company performance is valid, then why not a cheaper company president, CEO and other senior management? Something tells me, that will not happen.

CEO and board positions are already filled by foreigners. The competition for talent in these areas is such that there is no salary differential.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-24 6:47:00 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-24 6:47:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 ZF: Having said that, I hope they impose even more restrictions in the future. Every single move in this direction raises the cost of investment in China and decreases China's competitiveness.

But there will never be a lack of Chinese-Americans with dual citizenships who can get inside without a problem. And who really does most of the business with China if not Chinese-Americans? So in the end, any change in the cost of investment will be mitigated.

Posted by Rafael 2004-11-24 7:18:57 PM|| 2004-11-24 7:18:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 And who really does most of the business with China if not Chinese-Americans?

hellloooooo? Loral?

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-24 7:20:41 PM|| 2004-11-24 7:20:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Rafael: But there will never be a lack of Chinese-Americans with dual citizenships who can get inside without a problem. And who really does most of the business with China if not Chinese-Americans? So in the end, any change in the cost of investment will be mitigated.

Actually, no - Chinese-Americans tend to travel on their American papers. China doesn't allow dual citizenship - if they get into any local trouble, they don't get the protection of the US embassy.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-24 7:27:32 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-24 7:27:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Rafael: And who really does most of the business with China if not Chinese-Americans?

Frank G: hellloooooo? Loral?

The people who do most of the business with China are the traditional import-export firms. The folks who used to outsource to Southeast Asia are now outsourcing to China. How do they hook up with Chinese suppliers? Industry trade shows in Chinese cities and all over Asia. They get samples, talk about payment methods and quality control issues.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-24 7:32:05 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-24 7:32:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 if they get into any local trouble, they don't get the protection of the US embassy

I presume the people you are talking about here are U. S. citizens of Chinese descent. Are they treated differently by the embassy than any other Americans are?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-24 7:35:17 PM|| 2004-11-24 7:35:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 The thing that galls me is, there are too many "executives" who are convinced that the only places they can run software companies are in Silicon Valley, Seattle, or Boston, with their high real estate prices, with the only alternative being outsourced programming in SW China or Bangalore.

They cite all sorts of reasons they need to be there, but it doesn't stop them from outsourcing. It also doesn't occur to them precisely how many of the people they employ here moved out to CA or Seattle after getting college degrees in comp. sci. _elsewhere_.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2004-11-24 7:44:18 PM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2004-11-24 7:44:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 MD: I presume the people you are talking about here are U. S. citizens of Chinese descent. Are they treated differently by the embassy than any other Americans are?

Only if they travel using their Chinese papers.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-24 7:53:01 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-24 7:53:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 yeah, I was (as usual) being sarcastic. Loral is a special case as we all remember. Bastards

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-24 8:05:09 PM|| 2004-11-24 8:05:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Frank G: yeah, I was (as usual) being sarcastic. Loral is a special case as we all remember. Bastards

Bernie Schwartz ought to be in jail, together with the Singaporean-Chinese scientist who handed over the crown jewels.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-24 8:20:45 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-24 8:20:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 exactly

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-24 8:43:26 PM|| 2004-11-24 8:43:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Sorry Gromky, but companies in the US Tech industry have been screwing American workers over via the H1B process - it drops wages and reduces jobs available to US tech workers and favors companies that mislabel or reclassify jobs and bring in someon from India to do it for half of what they US worker was making prior to the "workforce realignmnet" that cost him his job.

This is not an "Organized Labor" issue - these are solid white-collar jobs that are vital to the nation: we need software and systems engineers to remain competitive in the world market, and experience is the big thing that makes innovation possilbe in this field. And as of now, we are giving all the experience away to H1B engineers while US ones are leaving the field - there is a massive loss of software expertise goign on, and in 10 years, the lack of "senior" enigneers willb e felt, in that US companies will not have any experienced US engineers to draw on - and will lose our edge. And lots of peopel I know in a lot of different industries have pressed out congressional reps to curb H1B, none of them belonging to labor unions.

We can'ta ll work for Walmart and expect to maintain our standard of liginv. H1B is one of those things that is killing the middle income and upper income technical job market. Its about time some one did something about it.

I have no pity for the H1B people, and if we take some return fire, oh f'ing well.

Its the Chinese you should be PO'd at. I've seen the job and pay casualties here from the H1B fiasco, and they far exceed any fees you face in Hong Kong.

In short, too f'ing bad - live with it, because a lot of US engineers have spoken to their congressmen and they congress acted to limit a runaway bogus program, H1B. If it inconveniences you that much, change your business.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-11-24 11:05:31 AM|| 2004-11-24 11:05:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Migrate our skills up? Bogus.

Fine - but where do those people coming "up" gain the one thing they need to move up - namely experience? Its not liek you can make any kid out of college a decent VP of a company or head of a division - they need experience. Same goes for the software business: to move up the value chain, in this business, requires knowledge and experience of the previous level. Software production is not like automobile assembly - the skills at the bottom are strongly linked to the top in software. You don't have to be an assembly line worker in order to become an automotive engineer. But it does take experience as a decent coder to become a decent systems designer.

Thats why this is NOT like the steel and auto industry. These are knowledge creation jobs, not "plug in joe sixpack" which anyone off the street can do after a bit of training.

And unlike the auto industry, software is at the core of the advances in the economy.

Your analogies fall flat. You are simply wrong on this.

We are selling our white collar jobs in the future for walmart jobs. I know that there are fewer and fewer people entering the workforce in comp sci these days because H1B and "outsourcing" have been allowed to decimate the wages and jobs available. We may not see it now, but in 10 years, when the current batch of engineers starts retiring out (and all the other ones have "moved up"), we will lose immense amounts of experience that will not be replaced by those "moving up" - because there are not enough in the supply feed at the bottom.

And when that comes, who will we have to drive the IT business that exists inside each business today? And more importantly, what happens when all those finely trained H1B's return to their homeland? They take advantage of their EXPERIENCE here and compete directly with US companies with third-world pricing.

Its of strategic importance. And quite unlike steel and autos. We are eliminating an entire class of knowledge from our society - and one that is at the core of every economic advancement of the last quarter century.

How well will our defense industry staff itself when we run out of US engineers? How secure will we be dependant upon Inda, China or Pakistan for software engineers to make software our defense requires?

These arent the same as hard devices, these are pieces of knowledge and require high levels of expertise, experience and university training.

We are killing our future with the H1B program and basic short-sighted greed.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-11-24 12:34:44 PM|| 2004-11-24 12:34:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2004-11-24 11:05:31 AM|| 2004-11-24 11:05:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2004-11-24 12:34:44 PM|| 2004-11-24 12:34:44 PM|| Front Page Top

11:47 Kalle (kafir forever)
00:02 Kalle (kafir forever)
00:00 Bomb-a-rama
23:51 Rafael
23:48 Brett_the_Quarkian
23:46 Atomic Conspiracy
23:46 Kalle (kafir forever)
23:45 Bomb-a-rama
23:21 Beau
23:11 Kalle (kafir forever)
23:09 Capt America
23:06 Capt America
23:02 BillH
22:59 BillH
22:54 Verlaine
22:50 Verlaine
22:48 2b
22:48 2b
22:38 anon2
22:35 True German Ally
22:32 Laurence of the Rats
22:31 phil_b
22:23 Angie Schultz
22:05 lex