Article

2004-11-16 Iraq-Jordan

Military Investigating Report of Marine Shooting Wounded "Prisoner"

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Posted by Steve 2004-11-16 9:03:50 AM|| || Front Page|| [7 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 as commented yesterday - Kevin Sites better watch himself. No marine will do it for him now. Fully justified - agreed. MSM better watch their ass on this one - it has a chance to really have a backlash among the public

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-16 9:37:02 AM|| 2004-11-16 9:37:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 This story is taking my dislike of the MSM and turning it into a hardened, bitter, hatred.

They have ignored these soldiers and all that they have faced and the heroic acts that they have performed. They have ignored all the good they have done - we never EVER see footage of that. The best we get are stories of wounded soldiers whose stories are truly inspiring. MSM can handle that, because it gets out the point that they were wounded or better yet, killed - which they just seem to delight in.

Now they get this footage and they are all over it 24/7. They are so transparent and so freaking shallow. May they rot in hell.

There was a story on Instapundit today about Tom Brokaw being booed by the Sooners. Apparently it was because of a speech he gave earlier at a commencement. I read the speech transcript on Free Republic - and I failed to see what was so offensive about it. But I think it's just that Tom Brokaw is associated with the MSM and we peasants are beginning to despise them one and all. At least that's how the MSM and "liberal self-annointed elite" see us, as peasants. Aren't they in for a big reality shock?

Posted by 2b 2004-11-16 10:01:24 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:01:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Let the friggin reporter check all the bodies from now on. If one of them is faking and blows his ass away, well, file charges in the monkeyass ICC against the terrorist. Cuz that will show 'em.

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2004-11-16 10:16:16 AM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2004-11-16 10:16:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I retired 14 years too soon. If I was that Marine's commander, I would pin a medal on him. As for Mr. Sites, I have an assignment for him...let's see....pool reporter at Zaeqawi's next hostage hideaway. He'll lose his head over that scoop. MSM disgust me.

Posted by TerrorHunter4Evr 2004-11-16 10:21:38 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:21:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 It's getting major play by the MSM

This is an understatement. One of the local news channels started off their telecast with this particular subject last night. A reasonable expectation is that the media will beat this to death a la Abu Grabass.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-11-16 10:24:35 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:24:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Over the past 18 months the training of quasi-military units in the US has included both 'active-shooter' and "threat-identification and reduction" scenarios. It's most difficult to get law enforcement type personnel to put aside years of "halt...police...put your hands up!" training and replace it with a TIR response.

Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT). are the most hazardous conducted by our military. A former Commandant of the USMC put it this way.

"In one moment in time, our service members will be feeding and clothing displaced refugees - providing humanitarian assistance. In the next moment, they will be holding two warring tribes apart - conducting peacekeeping operations. Finally, they will be fighting a highly lethal mid-intensity battle. All on the same day, all within three city blocks. It will be what we call the three block war."
- General Charles Krulak, USMC

The insurgents, terrorists, enemy combatantsâ¦whatever, are not covered under the Geneva Convention. Sometimes itâs the time and place that dictates the actions of the servicemen. The only premeditation is the desire to remain aliveâ¦the strongest drive among humans.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Posted by RN 2004-11-16 10:25:12 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:25:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Let me know when Zaqawi or OBL sign the Geneva Convention. Until then all this GC talk is academic.

Posted by Dar 2004-11-16 10:38:01 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:38:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I'm waiting for the stories of how the deader ran a farm for orphaned baby ducks...

Posted by Seafarious 2004-11-16 10:43:33 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:43:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 #1 - Kevin Sites better watch himself. No marine will do it for him now.
#2 - This story is taking my dislike of the MSM and turning it into a hardened, bitter, hatred.
#4 - Let the friggin reporter check all the bodies from now on. If one of them is faking and blows his ass away, well, file charges in the monkeyass ICC against the terrorist.
#5 - As for Mr. Sites, I have an assignment for him...let's see....pool reporter at Zaeqawi's next hostage hideaway.
#6 - A reasonable expectation is that the media will beat this to death a la Abu Grabass.
#7 - The only premeditation is the desire to remain aliveâ¦

Now that all the good thoughts have been expressed...

I will add my own recap & crude remarks

A) Accused Marine shot previous day...
B) Homicide bomber playing dead killed others within the hour nearby...
C) Marines being shot at from mosque before entry...
D) Embedded reporter bad idea. He should leave. #1 above...
E) MSM making trouble for this guy? Fire Brian Williams before he gets the chair warm. His opening is worthy of AFP/BBC...
F) Boycott all evening MSM broadcasts, since they are agents for a foreign entity...
G) Is the Marine getting any legal help? (which he should never have had to think about.)
H) F the MSM..F the MSM..F the MSM..F the MSM..

Posted by BigEd 2004-11-16 10:43:34 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:43:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I posted this on the other thread (bit I still agree with myself :) )

The Marines need to conduct an incredibly swift investigation (1 day), a quick review of findings (1 hour) and LOUD re-instatement of this brave young man (15 minute Press conference). Hell...take an extra 20 minutes and PROMOTE HIM!!

Posted by Justrand 2004-11-16 10:45:47 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:45:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 while the GC may not apply, US military law DOES, and it should, in circumstances like this. There is too little known to judge. Im glad our military is taking the matter seriously and investigating - thats what sets us apart from them.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-11-16 10:47:31 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:47:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 I'm curious, it would seem to me that if there was The first group of Marines should have dealt with the wounded one way or the other instead of leaving them to bleed out.

Posted by rjschwarz 2004-11-16 10:48:32 AM|| [http://politicaljunky.blogspot.com] 2004-11-16 10:48:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Just to put this into context...do you remember the following?

Guerrillas Kill Dozens of Unarmed Iraqi Soldiers// (Baghdad)
Originally published Monday, October 25, 2004
Los Angeles Times

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- In the deadliest ambush yet on Iraq's armed forces, guerrillas killed dozens of unarmed Iraqi soldiers, many apparently forced onto their stomachs and shot execution-style along a remote eastern highway near the Iranian border, Iraqi officials said Sunday.

Estimates of the death toll from the Saturday incident ranged from three dozen to 51.

Iraqi officials said gunmen disguised in Iraqi military uniforms stopped the U.S-trained soldiers as they rode home in a convoy of minibuses Saturday evening. The soldiers, who had just completed boot camp in Kirkush and were starting home leave, had rolled up to a phony checkpoint just after nightfall, officials said.

The young recruits were pulled off the buses, forced to lie prone in rows of 12, ordered to place their hands on their heads and methodically executed...
This story got one day of press...then disappeared.

Posted by RN 2004-11-16 10:50:17 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:50:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 The only way to get this off the front page is to give the MSM something else to chew on. For example, having the Marines build a pyramid of human skulls on whatever's left of the Falluja town square.

Posted by Matt 2004-11-16 11:08:24 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:08:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 terrorists are nothing but organized serial killers. When oh when will they realize that the best media attention they could ever hope to acquire would be to attack the BBC or NPR or other left wing idiots. The Robert Fisk's of the world would give them ENDLESS play. They would wring their hands, wonder why they hate them and replay it for MONTHS, perhaps even YEARS. If you are going out in a blaze of glory - why not make the big splash?

These jihadi's just want attention and to be noticed in their miserable lives. Do they not see this easy avenue to achieve it?

Posted by 2b 2004-11-16 11:20:54 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:20:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 The MSM needs a real heart to heart talk with the members of the Greatest Generation who did the island hopping campaign against Japan in WWII. I'm sure they'd be shocked, shocked to discover their dads and granddads didn't take too many prisoners regardless of the situation.

Posted by Don 2004-11-16 11:23:56 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:23:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 oh gosh.. I really don't wish that. I feel bad I said it. It may be true, but I don't wish that type of ill will on anyone. :-(

Posted by 2b 2004-11-16 11:26:28 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:26:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Last night I posted the following comment on RB: "Hey, we should give Kevin Sites a break on this. He seems to have reported what he saw. This guy has balls of brass and is hardly anti-military. In Afghanistan he saved some lives with his quick thinking. The SF guys said so in "The Hunt For Bin Laden." Also, his blog, www.kevinsites.com, is pretty good. I think there are numerous mitigating circumstances, but shouldn't we allow for the possibility that this kid did a bad thing?"

To that A Jackson replied: Somehow, I'm not quite as willing to give him a break when I read stuff like this at Kevin Sites blog:

So in some ways, embedded in this unit, I begin to feel I've betrayed the people that depend on me to be skeptical; to question the dominant powers and institutions of my nation and the actions it undertakes in the name of its citizens. I am not a military or American cheerleader, not a mouthpiece signed on to some institutional agenda whether I believe in it or not. I am here to ask the hard questions of the people who make the hardest decisions; ones that result in people dying or people being killed. I must remember as one journalist advised, "write in your notepad every day 'I am not one of them.'"

I don't have a problem with Sites saying "I am a journalist and not a US soldier." He should be skeptical and objective and fair. That means telling both sides of the story, not reflexively taking the pro-American position (or the anti-American position). If you look at his website (www.kevinsites.net -- I had it as .com last night) I think that you will see that he presents a pretty realistic portrait of life during war time for US soldiers and Marines and for Iraqis and Afghans.

Finally, I note the extreme irony in this nugget from Sites' bio: "Sites now runs his own production company, Shoot First Films, from his home in Pismo Beach, California."

Posted by Tibor 2004-11-16 11:45:15 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:45:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 The only reason everyone is assuming it's a prisoner who was alive then killed is that Sites claims so. I have seen no independent account that leads me to believe his story is correct. In fact, it is highly suspicious.

Why would prisoners be left in a mosque? why would they still be there but mostly shot the next day? and why would the marines not know about them, if they truly are prisoners?

I don't believe the context story, and I applaud the soldier who shot a man who was faking being dead. Prisoners are expected to demonstrate their lack of weapons and willingness to surrender -- else they are NOT prisoners but SIMPLY enemies to be killed.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-16 11:47:32 AM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-16 11:47:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Kill all terrorist, then the reporter. NP

Posted by sam 2004-11-16 11:53:10 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:53:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 I have no problem with the reporter reporting what he believes to be the truth. I have no problem with that at all.

What I have a problem with is the delight that the MSM is all over this story like a fly on poop. No understanding for the stress of combat, no understanding for the fact that he may have had a suicide belt. No. Just a poor, poor jihadi murdered by a cold blooded soldier.

You know, excuse me for the rhetorical excess, but that soldier put a bullet into two lost causes - a jihadi who'se sense of worthlessness was channeled into murder and a MSM whose hate was exposed in the reporting of this event.

May they both rest in peace.

Posted by 2b 2004-11-16 11:54:42 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:54:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 There is too little known to judge.

I'll say. But I'll also add this: even attempting to apply non-combatant morality to this Marine's actions would be unfair. He had to make a split-second decision, one that could have meant either life or death for him. The nature of the enemy our soldiers face in Iraq and that enemy's willingness to employ any method available to inflict casualties (including the use of suicide attacks) dictates that no assumptions should ever be made about safety or intentions. The operation in Fallujah is NOT a police action; it's a WAR, and in war, if you don't kill the enemy, he just might kill you. That Marine did what he felt he had to do, and that's good enough for me.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-11-16 12:08:11 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:08:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Another point...this incident is now being spun as a marine having shot an unarmed prisoner. As stated this was a second group of marines, the Iraqis were NOT prisoners. They were not in custody, but rather were in the process of being taken into custody by the 2nd group - someone correct me if I'm wrong. This whole thing stinks. The soldiers might as well learn it now...that embed is most likely not your friend. Again, most Americans can smell this and it's only gonna end up making the shill networks look worse. Now the UN wants to investigate, but of course noone cares about the butchered woman's body found yesterday....not a friggin' word.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-11-16 12:16:48 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:16:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 My guess is over the next week or two several 'journalists' will complain about clumbsy Marines/soldiers breaking their tapes/storage media. I hope it happens accidentally.

Posted by badanov 2004-11-16 12:19:15 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-11-16 12:19:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Well said 2b in #2. I am sick of the hate-America left. The MSM are unbelievable. But, when a dog urinates on a fire hydrant, he's not committing vandalism, he's just being a dog.

Posted by SR71 2004-11-16 12:23:22 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:23:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 The only question that matters: were the jihadis taking any prisoners at all?

Tit for tat, baby.

Posted by mojo 2004-11-16 12:59:05 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:59:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Hi, bomb-a-rama:

Given the circumstances that there had been booby-trapped bodies left behind in Fallujah. Plus buildings and Ammo Dumps (Mosques) booby-trapped to kill Marines and GIs.

The saftey of the Marine in question (who had been wounded in a previous battle) and his fellow Marines has precedence over everything else.

I've a feeling there is going to be another Lt. Colonel West "Blog-alanche" of support for this Marine and against the Touchy-Feely Blue State Elitist "Old Media" over this one!

Jack.

Posted by Jack Deth 2004-11-16 1:08:02 PM|| 2004-11-16 1:08:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Has anyone in the LLL MSM connect this soldier with the Bush Administration? You know itâs only a matter of time when they will claim that Rummy directed that the Marines take no prisoners. If that young man even felt the miniscule amount of danger, he was completely justified in his actions. Itâs my understanding that this unit had been ambushed by some Jihadis playing possum or pretending to surrender. If true, what else was the Marine supposed to do, wait until they shoot first or blow them up? This is NOT New York City and if you see a bad guy you have to kill the bad guy. Itâs called warfare.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2004-11-16 2:23:52 PM|| 2004-11-16 2:23:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Cyber Sarge...Thank God we waited until AFTER the election to go into Fallujah. Otherwise we'd have to listen to Kerry drone on and on about how: "If I had been President, I would have been in direct communication with that Marine, and would have been reminding him that we were trying to fight a more SENSITIVE war!"

Posted by Justrand 2004-11-16 2:29:42 PM|| 2004-11-16 2:29:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 maybe it's time for the soldiers to consider themselves soldiers first. Shoot combatants first, journalists second.

Posted by pissed 2004-11-16 2:44:46 PM|| 2004-11-16 2:44:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Didn't Kerry get a Bronze Star for doing the same thing?

Posted by sam 2004-11-16 3:15:12 PM|| 2004-11-16 3:15:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 JK shot a man in the back who was fleeing.

Posted by eLarson 2004-11-16 3:36:32 PM|| [http://larsonian.blogspot.com] 2004-11-16 3:36:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 When the embed program started, who could have predicted the press was on the other side?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-11-16 3:54:55 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-11-16 3:54:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 God bless this marine.

Posted by Crusader 2004-11-16 3:55:47 PM|| 2004-11-16 3:55:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Sites is right to say "I am not one of them." He couldn't measure up to the standards of the Marines. He seems to want to prepare himself for his reentry into the stateside MSM by finding "Ghengis Khan" style atrocities so the MSM can run the old Viet Nam antiwar playbook. If he keeps it up, he may find an RPG up his ass, just like in Viet Nam.

Posted by RWV 2004-11-16 4:08:32 PM|| 2004-11-16 4:08:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Kevin Sites is a traitor. This was not "news" in any sense. It was sensationalism. Why not just imbed reporters from Al-Jazeera? They couldn't be any more anti-American than NBC's coverage. Reporting like this only stirs up Muslim hostility, thereby prolonging the current war of civilizations. The soldier was unquestionably correct in his actions. The insurgents do not follow ANY rules of combat, and have shown repeatedly that they pose a threat at all times. If the insurgent who was shot had lived to detonate a grenade, the deaths of the soldiers in that room would not even be deemed worthy of coverage, because the insurgents use such tactics all the time. Of course, NBC would have given a hero's memorial to Sites, probably even wondering why the soldiers had not done an adequate job of protecting him. The military should not be browbeaten by the media into making this soldier a sacrifice for public relations. Everybody knows he was right, and if he is punished in any way, there should be a tremendous outcry by all Americans.

Posted by angryinIowa 2004-11-16 7:34:47 PM|| 2004-11-16 7:34:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 I would've shot him - once your personal survival intincts kick in, and you realize the enemy will still kill you no matter how reasonable you are, it comes down to your life versus his. Under that kind of pressure/reality no infantry grunt, Army or Marine, is gonna care what some REMF civilian or military bureaucrat, reporter, or politician whose not being shot at has to say about his decision to kill, only his fellow soldiers. The ult job of the infantry is close-in ground combat, to close in and destroy your country's enemy in close quarters violent combat or otherwise immediately and decisively change the enemy's willingness/ability to fight - combatant and noncombatant civilian wounded will generally be cared for only after an area is finally cleared and secured from enemy forces. Depending on the magnitude of the Iraqi's body movement(s) and my split-second comprehension of his intent, I MIGHT consider wounding him in the legs - anything else he's dead meat/worm food. The Marines received fire from this area/position, and have had numerous encounters with booby-trapped bodies and suicide bombers during their combat tenure. Remember also, the US delivered 000's of flyers and other methods warning civilians of pending operations/action - the only reason for women, children, and elderly to be there is because the insurgents intend to use them as PC "human shields", for political/media purposes.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2004-11-16 8:13:32 PM|| [http://n/a] 2004-11-16 8:13:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 A poster said it all on a LeftBlog, in paraphrase - there will be no more wars around the world if America became the "People's Republic of America".

Posted by JosephMendiola 2004-11-16 8:18:27 PM|| [http://n/a] 2004-11-16 8:18:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 AngryinIowa wrote: "Kevin Sites is a traitor."

Hey, I like hyperbole as much as the next guy. In fact, I like it more than the next 1 billion guys. But for a reporter to show what happened even in a questionable incident like this is a far cry from traitorous. You can question his motives, his politics, etc., but how is this traitorous?

I hate to sound like a shill for Kevin Sites, but I just don't think he's the anti-American character some have made him out to be.

Posted by Tibor 2004-11-16 11:15:35 PM|| 2004-11-16 11:15:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Tibor, I appreciate your scepticism for my admittedly extreme statement of my opinion, but here's my view in more detail: 1) I have a certain amount of nostalgia for the old ways of reporting. In WWII, and to a lesser extent even in later wars, the press made some attempt to act "responsibly" in terms of what it felt was wise to publicize. Situations which were morally ambiguous, and where displaying them would give only comfort and/or fuel for the enemy, were wisely overlooked. The press makes decisions every day about what information should or should not be reported. They have disavowed that role in war, and I belive that decision is wrong. 2) Sites admits that he had to consciously disregard his impulses to side with his countrymen. Perhaps some might consider this "pure" reporting, but I don't agree. I give Sites enough credit that I think his impulse to side with the American forces was an objective realization that we are fighting for the ultimate good in Iraq. His rejection of these feelings, however, is a surrender to coercion from those who would equate our side with the side of the terrorists. I don't believe in moral equivalency. There is almost always a good side and a bad side, and we are on the side of good in this conflict. If Sites considers himself neutral, then I believe that he has lost his way, at the least, and has obviously done harm to his country. I don't believe that he consciously betrayed his country. He almost certainly believed that he was doing what was right, though, just as traitors usually do (unless they're motivated by money). But he seems to have felt that he was serving a higher interest than loyalty to his country, in a situation that was not so black and white that he had a clear moral imperative. I consider that, if not "treason" in the legal sense, being a traitor to his country just the same.

Posted by angryinIowa 2004-11-17 12:21:54 AM|| 2004-11-17 12:21:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 Despite your protests, you are a "gotcha reporter"
why don't you go back to Iraq, maybe you'll have your face shot off, and then you can come back and blab about how forgiving you feel. You could have reported your concerns to the Commandant, but you wanted the notoriety, so you and your cretinous network could blab about the incident ad nauseam.

Posted by Clavinter Angiling2549 2004-11-22 2:20:01 PM|| 2004-11-22 2:20:01 PM|| Front Page Top

14:20 Clavinter Angiling2549
10:01 sam
00:21 angryinIowa
00:21 ex-lib
00:11 Old Patriot
00:11 mojo
23:58 .com
23:55 2b
23:55 donkey shop
23:54 Old Patriot
23:54 mojo
23:43 Conanista
23:43 ex-lib
23:33 .com
23:25 Frank G
23:21 Doug De Bono
23:18 Alaska Paul
23:18 Tibor
23:17 Tibor
23:15 Tibor
23:15 First Iraq, Then France
23:14 Frank G
23:12 trailing wife
23:09 SoNow