Article

2004-11-07 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tipper 2004-11-07 7:23:52 PM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 From Fox News TV, the hospital was taken by an Iraqi special ops (36th commandos). They look well equipped and trained.

This will (I hope) be a confidence-builder for the Iraqi populace, their troops and a boost for Allawi. I wonder how much of the video feed was / will be seen by Iraqis elsewhere in the country?

Posted by rkb 2004-11-07 7:30:48 PM|| 2004-11-07 7:30:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 I'm praying for our men and hoping that the Iraqis surprise us. This sounds like it really is the beginning of the assault.

Posted by JAB 2004-11-07 8:10:22 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:10:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 "AFP journalists embedded with the military said silver flashes lit up the skies in the latest aerial bombardment."

Well, it's good to know that journalists are on the case. Bright lights and loud sounds, eh?

"He said medics had appealed for foreign aid as they had insufficient resources to handle the wounded."

I thought Fallujah already had enough foreign resources? Oh, wait, you mean they only care about killing Americans, and don't give a flip about life?

Posted by gromky 2004-11-07 8:13:27 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:13:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Chester is saying that when the offensive starts, we'll know it.

This could just be more posturing.

http://adventuresofchester.blogspot.com/

Posted by Anon4021 2004-11-07 8:15:38 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:15:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Good luck and God speed lads. My prayers are w/you. Now go and kill everyone of those motherfuckers.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-11-07 8:20:27 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:20:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 In the pre-op pep talks the oficers were compating it to Hue. Let's hope the MSM is far less successful this time.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-07 8:34:18 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:34:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Anon4021, Fox reports that tanks and troops are staged forward. That's a pretty clear sign since that puts them at greater risk of bombardment. God speed to them ... MOUT (military ops in an urban terrain) is not an easy thing to do when you're committed to trying to leave the city standing for civilians to return to.

Posted by rkb 2004-11-07 8:37:12 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:37:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 #7 Staged is one thing, Advancing is another.

I'm guessing this is a bit of feint/retreat action.

The question is whether the offensive is time-driven or event-driven. I think it'll be happening soon, but so far is doesn't appear to be much.

Anybody got any pictures?

Posted by Anon4021 2004-11-07 8:48:01 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:48:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 One caution as we watch this unfold: the military objective here is to secure the city for the central government, not necessarily to destroy the insurgency. Expect the rules of engagement to reflect that and if you hear people we're "failing" because the insurgents can strike elsewhere, set the record straight.

We all know we could reduce the city to rubble without a single US casualty. But that would not accomplish the wider mission. It's a tough balancing act: it's important that we take Fallujah and hold it (even Saddam couldn't really do that). But it's also important that this advance the government and elections. Wiping out the city would probably make a unified Iraq impossible.

Whether spending blood to take it house by house will make a unified Iraq possible remains to be seen. I hope and pray it will.

Posted by rkb 2004-11-07 8:49:56 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:49:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Anon4021, I haven't seen pictures. Allawi has a press conference scheduled in the AM their time - we'll see what he says and if anything really happens before or after that.

Posted by rkb 2004-11-07 8:51:11 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:51:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 #10, It'll be interesting to see what he says.

GOOD LUCK BOYS!!!

Posted by Anon4021 2004-11-07 8:57:38 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:57:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 US forces had also taken over the main hospital, just outside Fallujah, on the western side, CNN reported.

Looks like we get to say how many bunnies and ducks die now, eh?

Posted by BA 2004-11-07 8:58:32 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:58:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 clicked too soon. Meant to add that daylight will arrive there in an hour or two.

Posted by rkb 2004-11-07 8:59:43 PM|| 2004-11-07 8:59:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 The video of the Iraqi commandos storming the hospital is probably playing on all the Iraqi TV stations. This was needed in many, many ways. So far, so good. God protect our troops.

Posted by RWV 2004-11-07 9:01:56 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:01:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 #12
Other reports indicate taht Iraqi Special Forces took over the Hospital.

Good luck to you guys(Iraqi NG Forces) too.

Posted by Anon4021 2004-11-07 9:02:04 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:02:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Fox reports we've secured two key bridges over the Euphrates.

Posted by rkb 2004-11-07 9:03:55 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:03:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 gaak. I've got to put this laptop in a better position so I don't keep clicking when I didn't mean to.

Anyway, the bridges lead from the west of the city into the main portion in the east. It's looking like the armor may advance soon. ??

Posted by rkb 2004-11-07 9:06:14 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:06:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 #17 I don't mind. Keep it flowing man, I don't have Cable TV anymore.

Posted by Anon4021 2004-11-07 9:09:16 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:09:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I dunno why.
But I can't help but think.

To the Insurgents.

U GUYS R FUCKED.
http://www.foxnews.com/images/143818/21_28_110604_marines_prayer_450.jpg

Posted by Anon4021 2004-11-07 9:20:47 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:20:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Oh and this one too:
http://www.foxnews.com/images/143611/0_22_110404_iraq_fallujah.jpg

Posted by Anon4021 2004-11-07 9:24:20 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:24:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Here's a good read on the situation around Fallujah a few days ago from a Marine stationed there.

Posted by AzCat 2004-11-07 9:29:23 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:29:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 OMFG
If this is true, KICK ASS.

During the fight, rules of engagement allow U.S. troops to shoot and kill anyone carrying a weapon or driving in Fallujah, a move aimed at allowing U.S. troops to fire on car bombers, Ramos said. Military age males trying to leave the city will be captured or turned back.

"If I see someone who looks like a martyr, driving at high speed toward my unit, I'll send him to Allah before he gets close," Ramos said.

Ramos = Marine battalion commander Lt. Col. Mike Ramos, 41, from Dallas, TX.
From: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137861,00.html

Posted by Anon4021 2004-11-07 9:30:01 PM|| 2004-11-07 9:30:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Marine spokesman COL Ballard reports it's quiet right now and that's the way they planned the op.

re: humanitarian concern about civilians, Ballard notes that the hospital was secured for that reason & they have civil affairs people out working to separate any remaining civilians from likely firefight areas. Notes that the curfew will let them sort out the civilians unable to leave from the insurgents.

Posted by rkb 2004-11-07 10:02:38 PM|| 2004-11-07 10:02:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Phase 1 - let all the women, children, ducks and bunnies out of town - turn all military aged men back.
Phase 2 - call in the B52s.

Posted by JP 2004-11-07 10:11:09 PM|| 2004-11-07 10:11:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 During the fight, rules of engagement allow U.S. troops to shoot and kill anyone carrying a weapon

About f**king time.

Posted by Rafael 2004-11-07 10:19:06 PM|| 2004-11-07 10:19:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Maybe US forces were told to hold off last time so that more of the enemy would accumulate there, and create a more target-rich environment for later.

Posted by Onionman 2004-11-07 10:41:22 PM|| 2004-11-07 10:41:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Onionman: Maybe US forces were told to hold off last time so that more of the enemy would accumulate there, and create a more target-rich environment for later.

There's no question in my mind that this was the case. More importantly, the six months worth of reprieve may have given the rebels the confidence to store most of their weaponry and ordnance there. Well, they are about to lose it all. They can walk out of there, but they can't take it with them. Once they lose these stores, what are the survivors going fight with? Switchblades?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-07 10:54:40 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-07 10:54:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Maybe US forces were told to hold off last time so that more of the enemy would accumulate there, and create a more target-rich environment for later.

Not a bad thought. I remember someone, during the last assault on Fallujah, bringing up a similar tactic used by the government of Peru -- leave an area as a "safe harbor" then hit it hard.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-11-07 10:54:55 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-11-07 10:54:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Once they lose these stores, what are the survivors going fight with? Switchblades?

It's not like Iraq isn't hip-deep in weapons. It'll hurt them for a while, but unfortunately they'll be able to rearm.

They've gotta be killed, or they'll be killing again.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-11-07 10:56:27 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-11-07 10:56:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 RC: It's not like Iraq isn't hip-deep in weapons. It'll hurt them for a while, but unfortunately they'll be able to rearm.

That costs money. It's possible that you can buy anything you want in Iraq, but that requires cash. They have invested huge chunks of it on their arsenal in Fallujah. They are about to lose it all. (Note that market prices for this stuff was reputed to be pretty high, indicating that there's not a lot of it floating around waiting to be found, either through smuggling or Saddam's caches).

The most important aspect of destroying their fighting capability is the classic American tactic of interdiction. Destroying their weapons stores will destroy their ability to fight.

Note that Israel had zero cases of suicide bombings while they were in total charge of the West Bank and Gaza. After they invited Arafat back in, mayhem galore. The reason? Arafat was able to stockpile weaponry. Before, all the Palestinians had at their disposal were the occasional gun and improvised explosive. Post-Arafat, they had C-4, mortars, RPG's and automatic weapons.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-07 11:04:39 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-07 11:04:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Maybe US forces were told to hold off last time so that more of the enemy would accumulate there

This doesn't make sense unless the intention was to pound the place to oblivion from the air and artillery. To let the place fortify and re-arm, only to engage in urban combat later, seems ludicrous (assuming there were no other, more important political objectives).

Posted by Rafael 2004-11-07 11:08:43 PM|| 2004-11-07 11:08:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 It's possible that you can buy anything you want in Iraq, but that requires cash.

Something there's plenty of just to the south, east, and west of Iraq.

Posted by Rafael 2004-11-07 11:10:57 PM|| 2004-11-07 11:10:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Denying insurgent forces the use of Fallujah as a sanctuary is very important, and we certainly will do that. No doubt, we will also kill a considerable amount of nutjobs who want to 'martyr' themselves and have thus stayed to fight, which will also be a good thing. But I doubt even US commanders think that the real spine of the insurgency -- the Sunni traditionalists who have no desire to be a minority in a shiite led democracy -- have stuck around. Most have probably already exfiltrated into the countryside and will wait until the fuss is over. Once Sunni civilians -- many who are probably supportive of the resistance -- re-enter the city, the insurgents will return.

Unfortunately, while the physical city itself does provide a measure of defense to the insurgents, its the mass of civilians and the ability to mix in amongst them that is the real sanctuary.

It may be that only a political solution that encourages Sunni leaders to stop fighting will really end this insurgency. How you convince a minority that ruled a majority with total brutality to then let that majority lord over it is a good question.

In Germany and Iraq, we constructed a democratic government out of the ashes of dictatorial ones, but the basic underlying nation-states already existed.

In Iraq, we are trying to create a nation-state itself. That is a challenge of a significantly greater order of magnitude.

Clearing Fallujah is important. But let's not harbor any illusions. It may not break the back of this insurgency.

Posted by Strategic Armchair Command 2004-11-07 11:16:26 PM|| [http://www.sacom.us] 2004-11-07 11:16:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Well, we will just have to see what kind of secondary explosions we get. We will take Fallujah, but what are our plans for interdiction to the west toward Syria and the east toward Iran. There is plenty of fodder and materiel in both countries, and if Iraq has a chance, the supply lines must be dried up.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-11-07 11:29:27 PM|| 2004-11-07 11:29:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Rafael: Something there's plenty of just to the south, east, and west of Iraq.

Not enough to supply this insurgency. A Lebanese returnee from Sadr's guerrilla force said that he was being paid $800 a month. For 1,000 fighters, that's $10m a year. Where are they going to get that kind of money from? Weapons and ammo are expensive. A guerrilla might shoot off 500 rounds in a firefight. At $0.10 a round, that's $50 right there. What about all the RPG's that miss? The point I'm making is that wars are expensive, and I don't think these guys have unlimited funds, and certainly not more money that the Iraqi government, which is generating $50B of annual revenue from 3m barrels of oil a day at $45 a barrel.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-07 11:35:22 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-07 11:35:22 PM|| Front Page Top

00:50 Mike Kozlowski
00:04 Zenster
23:52 mom
23:35 Zhang Fei
23:29 Alaska Paul
23:21 BigEd
23:19 Fred
23:16 Strategic Armchair Command
23:16 BigEd
23:10 Rafael
23:08 AzCat
23:08 Rafael
23:04 Zhang Fei
22:56 Robert Crawford
22:55 Beau
22:54 Robert Crawford
22:54 Zhang Fei
22:41 Beau
22:41 Onionman
22:40 A Jackson
22:32 Barbara Skolaut
22:21 rkb
22:19 Rafael
22:17 Robert Crawford