Article

2004-09-06 Russia

Command Failure Seen at Fault in Beslan Massacre

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Posted by Anonymous6134 2004-09-06 3:30:53 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Damn, I was so worried that Islamists were responsible.

Posted by Shipman 2004-09-06 3:55:58 PM|| 2004-09-06 3:55:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#2
Al-Reuters has reached a new low .... Blaming the special forces for the massacre is just f****ing unbelievable!

Security forces bungled the handling of Russiaâs worst hostage drama .... They were not prepared.
... a key weakness was the lack of coordination between police, army, paramilitary and special forces ... Something must happen right at the top, to coordinate these structures better ...

Indeed this is a NEW LOW !!! F****ING UNBELIEVABLE!

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-09-06 4:05:09 PM|| 2004-09-06 4:05:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Read Lileks' Bleat for today. He's kind of annoyed.

Posted by Matt 2004-09-06 4:08:15 PM|| 2004-09-06 4:08:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Doctrinally, Spetznaz was not formed, and is neither trained nor equipped to handle rescue/domestic terrorist operations. Speznaz is for strategic recon and strategic targets against a national enemy. They train for assinations, diversionary operations and the like. That is how those folks train, that is their normal mission.

If Putin or the MoD deployed those people to effect a recue or in counter terrorist operations, they will fail to temper losses of hostages. It is inevitable. Those people are not trained for that kind of work.

However, FSB does have counter-terror teams which are equipped to deal with terrorist attack, not they are, as with Spetznaz, not trained in the specific mission of hostage rescues.

If any blame is to be placed anywhere, IMO, it is with the site commander.

From what I have read the Spetznaz were not prepared because they were not ordered to prepare for action. And let's face it. From every indication, everyone was expecting a long seige, inasmauch as the Chechens' intentions may have been otherwise, and thus were the Spetznaz.

And there is also a change in tactics of terrorist operations, not seen before. There was no waiting, no negotiations; there were signifigant breaks from the usual patterns the terrorist use that authorities can use to gain advantage.

I think the Russian government can be reliably raked over the coals for not being prepared, but that failure is firmly in the hands of the site comander, not the brave gentlemen who went in as hell broke loose.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-06 4:51:52 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-06 4:51:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Wow!indeed.The Russians assualt Opera in Moscow and are criticised.They stand down their troops while negotiations are under way and they are criticised.The Russian SF are trying to plan a successful assualt and get criticised because they don't have one ready as soon as they hit the ground.The Russians made some terrible mistakes,BUT,it wasn't the Russians who intentionaly took a school hostage,it wasn't the Russians who placed explosives all over school,and it sure wasn't the Russians who shot children in the back as they tried to flee!

And before we in America get to talking how inept the Russians are,remember these 4 letters-Waco?

I have long wondered what kind of chaos would ensue if a group of terrorists took a senior Admiral and his family hostage in his house,and started killing them at long intervals.Imagine infighting between FBI,Seals,Delta,State and local Swats as to who has jurisdiction and who goes in.Or,similar situation on a Navy/USAF base.

Posted by Stephen 2004-09-06 5:03:37 PM|| 2004-09-06 5:03:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Exactly what kind of failure are you talking about?
Can you be rather specific?

As you yourself state, a completely new Islamonazi MO was deployed there. I am almost certain that had it happened first in Belgium, or in rural Pennsylvania, the results would be about the same.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-06 5:08:54 PM|| 2004-09-06 5:08:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Stephen, yes, thought of Waco, TX, too. Different thing entirely, but an example of totally botched operation, nonetheless.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-06 5:11:42 PM|| 2004-09-06 5:11:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 So, Mike, how do reconcile your lackadaisical response to THIS EXACT SAME ISSUE over in the child labor thread where I was complaining about media irresponsibility?

Your reply over there was:

[Zenster:] Reuters bears direct responsibility for the existence of this human misery .... Reuters, BBC, The Guardian and so many other mainstream media outlets ... bear some part of the death and mayhem ....

[Mike Sylwester:] Whatever.

And, yet, now you're squawking:

Indeed this is a NEW LOW !!! F****ING UNBELIEVABLE!

Care to explain?

And, yes, while there was some command breakdown in the Beslan response, it in no way ameliorates the one single fact that ISLAMIC TERRORISTS caused this to happen. Without their initiating this atrocity, no deaths would have occurred.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-06 5:12:10 PM|| 2004-09-06 5:12:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 #6 was addressed to Badanov. Just making sure.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-06 5:13:59 PM|| 2004-09-06 5:13:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Exactly what kind of failure are you talking about? Can you be rather specific?

I read news reports the same as everyone else. When the bombs started going off in day three, no one was ready. Not even special forces were ready. That is a command level failure, specifically the site commander's failure to order available forces to be ready to storm the gym.

As you yourself state, a completely new Islamonazi MO was deployed there. I am almost certain that had it happened first in Belgium, or in rural Pennsylvania, the results would be about the same

I wrote a new tactic: And that is the speed at which the inevitable attacks on civilians took place; there were no negotiations by terrorists, no information about what was going on was taking place. The lack of information reduced the effectiveness of any potential attack that was being planned.

Whether you like to admit it, terrorists have adjusted their tactics to stop any more information gathering and preparations through negotiations that authorities use. That is the change in tactics they will apparently start to use.

I am not a professional so as to discuss a future scenario, but I do read and I know enough about weapons and tactics to observe a definitive change in tactics has taken place. Future attacks will intensify as a result of this 'success' by terrorists, so what authorities can do to temper losses in any similar future scenario is an open question.

One of the first things authorities can do in response to such terrorist attacks is to adopt a system whereby a local commander can take charge of the situation to prepare locally available forces for assaults on terrorists.

I think better preparations by locally available forces could, conceivably, have reduced losses to non-combatants.

But as I have stated elsewhere, I am no professional.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-06 5:36:59 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-06 5:36:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Yes there is blame enough for all in this situation, however lets look at some of the reasons that this turned out the way it did.

1. The terrs had no other goal than to create a blood bath.

2. They picked an ideal location for their purposes, scouted it ahead of the event and possibly smuggled in weapons and explosives ahead of time.

3. Beslan is a relative small town with only a local police force, not a large city with access to the Russian SWAT type forces. The "experts" talk about not securing the perimeter for a kilometer radius around the school. Consider the amount of personnel required to just clear and hold a line that is 3.1415 kilometers long. You bet every local with a weapon is going to be there long before any trained troops even get notified. The old story of if you defend every where, you defend nowhere.

4. Spetnaz is trained to be long range recon, sabotage and command strike troops, totally untrained for this situation as pointed out in an earlier comment.

5. Russia as a whole does not have the experience, equipment, and doctrine to react to this situation as the U.S. would.

I don't believe that you can place the sole blame on the troops, local commander or Putin for what happened. The time and place to start blaming is if nothing is done to remedy the situation. This was a revellie call, it is time to get the troops into formation from high to low and do what has to be done, even if it means going to America with hat in hand for assistance. If Russia/Putin would ask, we should give without any "told you so's" We are both in this together.

Posted by Old Fogey 2004-09-06 5:42:17 PM|| 2004-09-06 5:42:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "When the bombs started going off in day three, no one was ready... That is a command level failure, specifically the site commander's failure to order available forces to be ready to storm the gym."

I am sorry, I had no idea that you reside in an alternate universe. In mine, the moment the roof of the gym collapsed after a boom, the available forces stormed the place.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-06 5:44:51 PM|| 2004-09-06 5:44:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 From the article:

Local troops -- unprepared and possibly short of ammunition -- suddenly found themselves assaulting the school, while special forces moved in only half an hour after the battle began, Golts said

There was an apparent breakdown in command if troops untrained in counterterrorism fighting assaulted the school with zero preprarion and there was a 30 min delay before the commandoes went in.

I am willing to discuss this event, but if you want to turn this thread into a flame war I can accomodate you in that as well.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-06 5:55:44 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-06 5:55:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Badanov, there were NO counterterrorism trained troops present. That is the essential bottom line here.

"Spetnaz is trained to be long range recon, sabotage and command strike troops, totally untrained for this situation as pointed out in an earlier comment."

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-06 6:15:29 PM|| 2004-09-06 6:15:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Badanov, in other words, the Russian leadership may be grilled over the fact that there is not enough CT training (either at FSB or MoI). As for Beslan, the forces involved handled the situation as best as they could. The reason why spetznaz waited may be attributable to the lack of coordination, but given the fact that there were no CT trained troops, perhaps spetznaz comand thought that the local troops are better trained for the task. It may have been apparent that is not the case after 30 minutes and spetznaz command decided to step in.

As for the "zero preparation", it is such an innane thing to say--on one hand, he decries spetznaz waiting 30 minutes, on the other he laments about 0 preparation--that am affraid Golts is an expert in horsemanure distribution.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-06 6:29:25 PM|| 2004-09-06 6:29:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 One important question is will Russia be able to learn and make changes based on this horror?Germany after Munich,and the US after Desert 1 decided to spend the money to build effective CounterTerror units.Will Russia be able to?While I would not be shocked to see selected Russian troops training in US in a year or so,I think the agreement w/Israel points to future of Russian CT ops.Russia may not be able to afford all the equipment US has,but can afford the gear Israel has.I would bet that in a couple of months or so,Israeli training team(s)and specialized equipment will be in Russia building a specialized CT force-in exchange for easier immigration of Russian Jews,perhaps oil,and maybe even contracts for advanced electronics for Russian A/C.I imagine the unit will be a "Presidential" unit,outside regular chain of command,and will prob get a loyal(Putin hopes)high-ranking officer who will be given "emergency" powers when deployed.Having found an extremely vulnerable spot in Russian psyche,will Chechnyans wait to strike again before such training has occurred?Given apparent Euro indifferance to Russia's suffering,will Russian leaders return to old strategy of putting as much land between threats and Mother Russia as possible?

Posted by Stephen 2004-09-06 6:32:03 PM|| 2004-09-06 6:32:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Badanov, there were NO counterterrorism trained troops present. That is the essential bottom line here

Agreed, and also agreed the casualties were so high because the terrorists deemed the end result to be so.

Since the spetsnaz were the only specially trained troops available it is possible that Putin had no intention of deploying FSB troops.

Why would he not? The answer could be political. assuming the Putin cares nothing for anyone in Ossetia. The answer could also be the site commander could possibly have told Putin, as apparently word did leak out, that authorities would try no assault on the school; that they would wait the terrorists out.

Another possibility: Putin told the local commander he was on his own; there wee eno troops available for him to use, which would shift the onus to Moscow.

Is it possible Russian regulars were expected to launch an assault on the school in the absencee of other troops?

I all this I am not trying to shift blame from the criminls who did this, but I would like to know why after two days the only troops available were troops untrained in counterterrorism operations.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-06 6:32:46 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-06 6:32:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Zenster -- Mike was being "ironic". He agrees with Reuter's take that the Russians are at fault.

Hmmmm... I sense a pattern. Mike's always in agreement with the press (this subject and Abu Ghraib, for example), and even gets defensive when the press is criticized -- see the child labor thread. Mikey probably works for a paper somewhere, toiling in obscurity while doing his level best to make sure that only the "acceptable" news gets out.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-09-06 7:11:46 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-09-06 7:11:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Thank you, RC, but I'd still like to hear Mike's side of the story, as in straight from the horse's you-know-what. This was just a little too much and it's time for people everywhere, most especially from those in the the ink-stained trades, to get up on their hind legs and take a stand.

As to "acceptable news," at what point does it no longer remain "acceptable" for supposedly professional media outlets to effectively condone and soft-sell terrorism? We've seen it already with al Jazeera. Why else has their ban from Iraq been extended indefinitely? How much closer must Western mainstream media approach the conflict-of-interest represented by al Jazeera before they no longer can make any claim to journalistic integrity? Mike has yet to respond in either thread viz this question and I find it a thundering silence quite similar to that roaring forth from the world's Muslim community with respect to Beslan.

As others here have already mentioned, any offenses committed at Abu Ghraib pale to lily white shades by comparison to this and so many other Islamist atrocities.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-06 7:37:48 PM|| 2004-09-06 7:37:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Fox had a quickie report on the end of Brit's show today:
National Lampoon Online has proposed that Merriam-Webster's take the word "terrorist" out of the dictionary since it's not in use any more. If the media won't use it to describe the bad guys at the school, they never will

Posted by Frank G 2004-09-06 7:41:26 PM|| 2004-09-06 7:41:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Beslan is a relative small town with only a local police force, not a large city with access to the Russian SWAT type forces

Which is what also was mentioned at the briefing I got last week. Attacks like Breslan would likely happen in areas where FBI/military/anti-terrorist forces are not immediately available, as local law enforcement generally isn't prepared to deal with it.

Posted by Pappy 2004-09-06 8:43:01 PM|| 2004-09-06 8:43:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#22
Re #19 (Zenster): The highlighted comment in the posting is absurd. The article did not blame the special forces for the massacre in the sense of moral culpability. The article is entirely reasonable and proper.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-09-06 8:55:26 PM|| 2004-09-06 8:55:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Indeed. That the blame *morally* falls entirely on the terrorists, doesn't mean that there might not exist failures of e.g. incompetence on the Russian side.

There's nothing horrible about saying so if there's evidence to indicate that. There's nothing immoral about saying so.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-09-06 9:36:06 PM|| 2004-09-06 9:36:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#24
Re #19 (Zenster): As to "acceptable news," at what point does it no longer remain "acceptable" for supposedly professional media outlets to effectively condone and soft-sell terrorism?

Zenster, I think this particular article is entirely acceptable. It doesn't "effectively condone and soft-sell terrorism."

You're getting too angry, and you're ranting. I do it sometimes too, so I'm pointing it out to you for your own good. You're too wound up about all this. Calm down. Go take a walk.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-09-06 9:36:36 PM|| 2004-09-06 9:36:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Yes it's a fine and proper article, and oh so appropriate and reasonable, especially at this time, when the focus should be on the Russians, not on the perpetrators, and as I'm sure the experts have ALL the facts and are oh so knowledgeable about these sorts of things, given their frequency of occurrence, and after all we are such idiots we need to be educated on the finer points of morality, and outbursts of anger over this atrocity are uncalled for.

Posted by virginian 2004-09-06 11:02:13 PM|| 2004-09-06 11:02:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#26
Whatever.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-09-06 11:11:22 PM|| 2004-09-06 11:11:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 No, no, no! It's Whatever.

Posted by .com 2004-09-06 11:14:06 PM|| 2004-09-06 11:14:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 #25 Yes it's a fine and proper article, and oh so appropriate and reasonable, especially at this time, when the focus should be on the Russians, not on the perpetrators, and as I'm sure the experts have ALL the facts and are oh so knowledgeable about these sorts of things, given their frequency of occurrence, and after all we are such idiots we need to be educated on the finer points of morality, and outbursts of anger over this atrocity are uncalled for.

Permit me, Sir, to stand you a round at the earliest opportunity. It would be a personal pleasure.

PS: You've got it, .com. Nuance is everything.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-07 12:18:07 AM|| 2004-09-07 12:18:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Lol!

Posted by .com 2004-09-07 12:23:03 AM|| 2004-09-07 12:23:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Mike, please indicate how, without the assistance of Islamic terrorists, this atrocity would have occurred solely through Russian incompetence. The article cites Russian incompetence and your own postings seem to regard it as being responsible in some way. Go ahead, make my day and demonstrate for all of us here at Rantburg, and the folks back home, just how the Ruskies f%&ked this one up.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-07 12:29:20 AM|| 2004-09-07 12:29:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 PS: Thank you for the (appropriate) laughter, .com. Right about now, I needed it rather badly.

I've had my fill of the press facilitating outright slaughter. No news to many here, I'm sure, but this shit's gotta end somewhere.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-07 12:32:41 AM|| 2004-09-07 12:32:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Well, dissin Putty, now that he's begun consolidating the financial assets he needs to reinstitute military and NKVD / KGB power, strikes me as a rather foolish move. Soon enough, he'll restore real power to himself, the rest of Russia be damned. Then, being a Chechy twitter strikes me as a fool's lot. Think he'll tolerate them when he has recreated his iron fist? Lol!

I gave up on the Chechnyan BS with this episode. I'm now firmly in the fry 'em up camp.

Posted by .com 2004-09-07 12:38:38 AM|| 2004-09-07 12:38:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Aris, that there were shortcomings in how Russian authorities handled this crisis nonetheless does not make it appropriate to submit an article painting the responding enforcement body as having any responsibility for the ensuing slaughter. All blame must be pointedly thrust upon the backs of Islamist terrorists or any such reportorial submissions have little or no worth. Please note that I'm doing my best to be polite about the media in this post.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-07 12:40:32 AM|| 2004-09-07 12:40:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 Is there such a thing as morally decrepit?
For some reason, it flashes in my mind whenever Mike and Aris post some of their thingies.

I just can't help it, it is totally involuntary. Anyone knows if there is some sort of remedy?
(Beside not reading RB, that is. That suggestion would not fly. At all.)

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-07 12:51:41 AM|| 2004-09-07 12:51:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 I'm now firmly in the fry 'em up camp.

Dang nab'it, .com. Stop with the persuasive arguments about why scorched and salted earth is such a good thing!

I'm desperately holding back from advising ~~Ras~~Putin to level every and all Chechnyan structures more than a metre tall. I hate such ideas, but photos showing scores of diminutive little body bags just (as Abe Simpson would put it) "angry up the blood!"

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-07 12:54:25 AM|| 2004-09-07 12:54:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 PS: Mike, when the forces of (as you so politely put it) "whatever" finally include your own daughters being raped or genitally mutilated, will you have something else to say? Or shall it be just another day of "journalistic" business as usual?

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-07 1:02:30 AM|| 2004-09-07 1:02:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 Zarathustra - Lol! Yes, indeed. The axes are ground according to the needs of the individual. Aris is just a 25 yr old kid - training to be an EU Minister methinks - who's so full of himself he comes here for relief. He has always made the mistake of being himself. To the detriment of RB. And he's pure leech to boot. A gutless leech. Mike is just one of the truly weird people who've glommed onto RB. He reminds me of Buchanan - I can't make heads or tails out of his wildly disparate positions.

Zen - There are ends, and then there are ends. Endless is the only option that is actually off the table. The MSM has been despicable beyond even my lowest expectations - and that's saying something, heh. I posted the BBC "Hostage Takers" story because it was simply so outrageous I coudn't resist. I'm afraid the blogosphere, and the Burg O' Rants, is on its own. Putty will rebuild the central authority (what else does he understand?) and if there isn't a bomb designed to do it yet, one will be invented that sews salt - after turning the top 10ft of soil. Possibly a 2-pass operation, but that seems so, um, inefficient.

Posted by .com 2004-09-07 1:08:19 AM|| 2004-09-07 1:08:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 I get the feeling that the terrorists were factoring the over-reaction of the Russian special forces into the equation, knowing that they would react the way they did.
(Remember the terrorists in the Die Hard movies?)
The seizure of this school full of happy children, parents and teachers was exactly like our 9/11 in that no-one could plan for it, just like no-one planned for 19 killers to ram planes into our buildings and bring them down.
But to be fair, when I watched the Fox News live coverage of this, I saw no security cordon at all around the school and only saw concerned parents running to the school, not soldiers as "Zarathrustra" maintained.
This created loads of confusion and got a lot more people killed and also allowed some of the IslamoNazi killers to get away in the crowds.
"Frying up" or salting Chechnya won't solve anything.
The people of these lands aren't to blame--it's Putin supporting Iran, Syria, Saddam's Iraq and Saudi Arabia with nukes, weapons and oil deals that are the problem.
What's the terrorists weapon of choice? AK-47s, made in Russia.
And Putin needs to revive some aspects of the old Soviet police state, like (KGB) internal snooping and something akin to our Patriot Act and a lot more border control.
He should have a longer chat with his pal and sometimes ally President George W. Bush.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-09-07 1:31:17 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-09-07 1:31:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 The MSM has been despicable beyond even my lowest expectations

By MSM, I am obliged to think you are referring to the "Main Stream Media."

If so, I cannot agree with you more, .com. There are limits and Beslan, plus Mike S's attempt at exonerating them, represent the outer boundaries of such twaddle. You may not like what I think of America's current leadership, but I would hope both of us have had our fill of the media's meek submission to those who would ~~kill~~ murder us all without a backward glance.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-07 1:55:52 AM|| 2004-09-07 1:55:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 "But to be fair, when I watched the Fox News live coverage of this, I saw no security cordon at all around the school and only saw concerned parents running to the school, not soldiers as "Zarathrustra" maintained."

Think for a moment... Would you allow reporters in a situation like Beslan monitoring your positions, strength and so on, if you were a commander of the forces at the site?
It was clear that terrorists were communicating with outside command structure. It really does not matter that FOX is a US network, you do undertand that, right?

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-07 2:05:31 AM|| 2004-09-07 2:05:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 We're in synch there, Zen. I'd call it complicity, instead of submission, but that's just quibbling. We are truly on our own regards information. I imagine you're not too fond of Fox - but that's the best of the lot, IMHO, and they stumble all over themselves to try to get a spokesfool on for every perceived "position" - inviting people like CAIR's Hooper and others of his ilk. My positions are hardening in reflexive self-defense alone. I would like to be able to say I'm informed and my current conclusions are based upon fair and honest deliberation, but with such information, I know that's not the whole case - and much is based upon discerning the patterns of events - sans the "broader view" spin of BBC, et al. That pattern is very disturbing. I hope CENTCOM follows through with their own media outlet program - it will probably be the least skewed of all. Sigh. We're in a sad and absurd situation, given it's the height of the information age, heh.

Posted by .com 2004-09-07 2:07:29 AM|| 2004-09-07 2:07:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 Zara, possibly the killers were in touch with outside command, but given Putin's response (which has been the same every time), it was fairly predictable.
And Fox was using a Russian feed, I think,(as were all the other networks) with Dana Lewis's commentary over it.

Zenster, old boy, you are going to have to change one of 2 things: either the way you "think" about America's "current leadership" (which is bullshit) or the heavy-handed Putin-like way you want the President to deal with Islamist terrorists.
Neither Kerry nor Nader will go after the IslamoNazis--they'll send their boy (probably Joe Wilson or Dennis Ross) to the UN time after time, Kofi will issue a condemnation and that will be that.
Kerry will not be your Rambo and Andrew Sullivan isn't running.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-09-07 2:14:55 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-09-07 2:14:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 And Zenster, your pals in the MainStreamMedia are enabling Kerry to win the election as much as they are the Islamist terrorists to get away with literal murder, so think about that, why doncha?

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-09-07 2:17:58 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-09-07 2:17:58 AM|| Front Page Top

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