Article

2004-09-02 Caucasus

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Posted by Dan Darling 2004-09-02 4:39:26 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I just posted the following at the BBCs "Have your say" Website

Henry in London you sir are a equines behind. There is no excuse what so ever for taking children and teachers hostage.

All I can say in modern history that this is typically an islamic act.

BBC you call these people a "gang" They are terrorists. Why must you mince words. Are you worried about ofending people who threaten to murder infants and children or those who would support such acts?

The situation can be defused by killing every last terrorist where they stand. If you think people wearing sucide belts can be barganed with you are unstable in your thinking.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-02 6:56:10 AM|| 2004-09-02 6:56:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 the situation can only be defused when Putin finally understands that the use of sheer power and the installation of a puppet regime does not work.

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 7:40:50 AM|| 2004-09-02 7:40:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Something / someone's gone boom - check link at top p.1

Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-02 7:45:05 AM|| 2004-09-02 7:45:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Iyot - not many people would try to argue that the Ruskies are blameless as regards the Caucasus situation, but this situation will be 'defused' / detonated by force. You don't make compromises with, or concessions to, terrorists. You kill them.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-02 7:50:35 AM|| 2004-09-02 7:50:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 2 explosions man I hope it was just some stupid jihadi off on their own. Make me sick to my core to think of those little kids.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-02 7:50:46 AM|| 2004-09-02 7:50:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 An intelligence chief said the siege would be ended by "lengthy negotiations".

And I just saw on the news that ther Russians have "ruled out the use of force". Yeah, sure... Nothing like "lengthy negotiations" to prepare for, and execute, a special forces operation. Taking out 17 terrorists near-simultaneously shouldn't be an impossible task.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-02 7:57:50 AM|| 2004-09-02 7:57:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 bulldog, in that case you can be sure all these little children will die.. In that case, I think it's preferable to give in to their main aim-the release of the perpetrators of the Ingushi attack in june 2004..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 8:35:17 AM|| 2004-09-02 8:35:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 bulldog, in that case you can be sure all these little children will die..

No you can't. You think it's wise to "give in" to terrorists? Have you converted to Islam yet? Idiot.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-02 8:40:22 AM|| 2004-09-02 8:40:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 expose the prisoners to a fatal communicable virus and release them to the terrorists....let em drive away

Posted by Frank G 2004-09-02 8:40:50 AM|| 2004-09-02 8:40:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Yes, i think it is wiser to give in to the terrorists, if the alternative is the death of over 100 children. Or do you really believe these 20 terrorists can be taken out so easily without bloodshed ? I would call that naive..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 8:49:07 AM|| 2004-09-02 8:49:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 We are going to have to develop tactics against this sort of situation, since it is probably going to become more common. The use of knockout gas was a good idea, but it obviously still needs some work. With kids involved, knockout gas is even more problematic, since they are more susceptible to an overdose.

An alternative approach is combination of video for precisely locating each perp and armor-piercing rounds to penetrate multiple walls. We need the insect-like robots from the movie "Minority Report" to get the covert video.

Posted by virginian 2004-09-02 8:52:50 AM|| 2004-09-02 8:52:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 We are going to have to develop tactics

I reckon they better adopt another strategy. The whole Chechnya problem has been totally mismanaged, to an extent that now the Ingushi are joining the Chechen terrorists. Does someone here ever wonder why this happened ? Since 2002, the FSB / Russian Military has created a Chechnya like atmosphere in Ingushetia ..This is the result.

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 9:04:51 AM|| 2004-09-02 9:04:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 I also feel for the children. These bastards have to be stopped, and stopped COLD. They need to be killed dead. Giving into them will only encourage more children-hostage taking in the future.

Lyot - if you think that giving in to the terrorists would 'solve' the problem you are very naive. It will only encourage them to do the same again and again and again in Russa, the United States, Britain, and everyplace else there are children. We (or the Philippines) 'rewarded' hostage taking and beheadings in Iraq and now hostage taking is commonplace.

Your 'giving in' to save 100 children would endanger thousands worldwide.

It is a very terrible and horrible choice to have to have to make.

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-09-02 9:50:28 AM|| 2004-09-02 9:50:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 they will be encouraged to do these kind of actions, no matter if you give in or not. They didn't give in Dubrovka theater, yet what happened yesterday ? Giving in to the terrorist wouldn't resolve the Chechnya problem, but it would at least spare these 100 children. And then they could start working on a real solution for Chechnya. On the diplomatic level.. Not with the terrorist, but with the Maschadov government..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 9:56:43 AM|| 2004-09-02 9:56:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 For every person in the school that dies a terrorist prisioner dies.For every boom belt that goes off a terrorist and his extended family dies.Show these bastard compatriots of Anti,and Gentle what playing hardball means.

Posted by raptor 2004-09-02 10:01:09 AM|| 2004-09-02 10:01:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Iyot,
Here are two solutions proposed before:

1. For every person killed in an Islamist attack, a mosque is destroyed.

2. For every person killed in an Islamist attack, 100 people declared themselves apostates from Islam.

Of course for #2 to work, there would have to be a list of peaceful Moslems willing to use apostasy as a weapon against Islamism.

Posted by mhw 2004-09-02 10:07:52 AM|| 2004-09-02 10:07:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 There is a world of difference between the Theater and this school. Also there hasn't been a rash of 'threatre' style acts until now precisely because the russian government did not 'give in' then. If they give in now there will most certainly be a rash of 'school' attacks because then the terrorists will know just how to hit us for the maximum benefit.

What should be done:

1) Russia should stop all work on the Iranian Nuclear plant. And perhaps even bomb the plant site.
2) Kill the prisoners who the terrorist are asking to be set free.
3) Truely Join the US and Britain in the WOT.

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-09-02 10:37:25 AM|| 2004-09-02 10:37:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Or do you really believe these 20 terrorists can be taken out so easily without bloodshed ? I would call that naive..

Where did I say it could be done without bloodshed? Of course there would be bloodshed, numpty, and you'd try to make sure most if not all of it was terrorist blood. You may find that you can't take out all of those wearing suicide belts before they have a chance to use them, but if you can take out those with who are equipped with heavier explosives, you'll save most of the innocents' lives. And if you can somehow manage to separate the terrorists from the children before killing them, all the better. That might be do-able if you pretend to accede to their demands - and if so, go ahead! In fact, reneging on promises to terrorists is a superb idea. Makes the practice pointless.

Do you believe in democracy? Do you think it's acceptable for a democratically elected leadership of a country to have its policies dictated by terrorists? Why is that acceptable? Why not just get rid of the democratic process altogether, since you seem to believe that 'might is right'. The crueller the violence, the more right it is, huh? Real jungle-dweller school of thought.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-02 10:47:59 AM|| 2004-09-02 10:47:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 If one were completely and 100% devoid of humanity, as Islamic terrorists seem to be, then this is actually a fairly shrewd move on their part.

Putin can't storm (building wired w/explosives), use sleeping gas (children), seige (deprive children of water? food? heat?) or employ special forces (suicide belts) without being assigned blame in the children's deaths.

They picked a "good" scenario. Putin is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The terrorists don't seem to mind being damned, period.

Expect more nihilistic events like this one. Short of a miracle where the terrorists get a change of heart and let all the children go - this is simply a no-win situation.

The terrorists have achieved their simple goal - terror. Short of a miracle, they won.

Posted by B 2004-09-02 10:54:54 AM|| 2004-09-02 10:54:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 employ special forces (suicide belts) without being assigned blame in the children's deaths. They picked a "good" scenario. Putin is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The terrorists don't seem to mind being damned, period. Expect more nihilistic events like this one. Short of a miracle where the terrorists get a change of heart and let all the children go - this is simply a no-win situation. The terrorists have achieved their simple goal - terror. Short of a miracle, they won.

Wrong.

Putin has to go in with special forces. Children will most likely die in the attempt, but he can't sit there and he can't give in.

I am sorry for the potential loss of young life, but blame for those deaths can't be placed in Putin's hands. Blame for those deaths will rest firmly in the hands of every Muslim, worldwide.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-02 1:34:52 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-02 1:34:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Badnov - I agree that Putin must act and on another thread I make the same point that you are making - that we need to keep the blame on the terrorists where it belongs.

But the nature of our world is that Putin will be blamed - even if he does the right thing. In fact, that's why he SHOULD do the right thing - cause he's going to get heat for it no matter what happens.

These terrorists wanted to create terror and they did. Just like the Paleo's do with each bus bomb. One doesn't need to be brilliant to do it, just hateful and heartless.

They wanted to create terror and headlines. They succeeded. Thus, they already won this battle. If Putin is smart, he won't cave and allow them an even greater victory.

Posted by B 2004-09-02 2:29:06 PM|| 2004-09-02 2:29:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 These terrorists wanted to create terror and they did. Just like the Paleo's do with each bus bomb. One doesn't need to be brilliant to do it, just hateful and heartless. They wanted to create terror and headlines. They succeeded. Thus, they already won this battle. If Putin is smart, he won't cave and allow them an even greater victory.

Putin and his entourage may not like the term but I am pretty certain he will cowboy up and put these f*ckers down for good.

I am not usually a praying man but I will pray tonight for the survival of as many kids as possible and that Russian rifles find the right targets tonight.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-02 2:45:24 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-02 2:45:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Lyot-You lack moral principles. How about if the terrorists put a knife to the child's throat and demands he tell them where the father is so they can kill them. The father will die (and guess what, the child might, too)-make you feel better? You should take a look at the recent Rantburg posting on plans for terror attacks on the Spanish embassy in Honduras--AFTER Spain agreed to the terrorists demands to leave Iraq.

There is nothing quite like moral bankruptcy that eggs on terrorism.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-02 3:00:05 PM|| 2004-09-02 3:00:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 for every person in the school that dies a terrorist prisioner dies.For every boom belt that goes off a terrorist and his extended family dies.Show these bastard compatriots of Anti,and Gentle what playing hardball means.

The Russians have been playing these kind of 'hardball' games with the Chechens for over 5 years now. And the reason so many Ingush are now joining the terrorist ranks is just because the Russians have used excessive force during the last 15 months. With these 'tradition based people', more violence simply isn't going to work.

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 3:18:03 PM|| 2004-09-02 3:18:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 mhw, i think the second solution would be a good one, but it would all depend on the muslims themselves.. I reckon this is not going to work.. I doesn't even happen here in the West, as far as I know.. Bombing mosques would only lead to more polarisation, in my opinion

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 3:20:10 PM|| 2004-09-02 3:20:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 more violence simply isn't going to work

You are twisting terms. The Muslim jihadis are committing violence. The Russian Army has been fighting a war.

Big difference..

Sorry, I forgot.

Kumbayah...

Posted by badanov 2004-09-02 3:20:15 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-02 3:20:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 bulldog,
if Russia & Chechnya were a democracy, there wouldn't be a hostage taking right now.. That is the main issue here..Putin & co have created this monster themselves by their policies in the Caucasus..They are the main defenders of the 'might is right' principle.. Now they have it come their way, and I am not suprised.. They have to break the cycle, or it won't stop..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 3:23:54 PM|| 2004-09-02 3:23:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 badanov

we clearly have a different view on the situation in Chechnya..The Russian army is guilty of massive war crimes. I call that 'violence' and not 'conducting a war'..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 3:25:52 PM|| 2004-09-02 3:25:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 So if the Russians asked for it because of the past Russian government's "policies in the Caucasus", did the Ossetian kids ask for it by because they are citizens of Russia? See where this dangerous argument leads you?

By this, I don't assert that there was justification for the past Russian escapades in the Caucasus. It's a bigger question than Russia's past, now.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-02 3:33:25 PM|| 2004-09-02 3:33:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 The Russian army is guilty of massive war crimes. I call that 'violence' and not 'conducting a war'.

Where there have been crimes comitted the Russian Army has court martialed officers involved. Your charge that war crimes have taken place do not wash. You have cited NO instances, NO indication whasoever that war crimes are in fact Russian Army policy, which is an element needed to make a charge of war crimes.

The Chechens are armed illegal combatants and are not subject to international law, but they are subject to Russian Army action to defend Russia's homeland.

I hear you will find a receptive, if stupid, audience amounst those at DU, IndyMedia and the Daily Kos. They WILL buy your lies.

I don't.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-02 3:35:57 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-02 3:35:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 badanov, no need to discuss this further.. You have clearly no clue about what really happens in Chechnya..

jules, it's not a justification for what happens in S.Ossetia..There's no justification for such horrible crimes. But these acts are not coming 'out of the blue', and in order to stop this, I do not believe 'more violence' is a solution

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 3:52:40 PM|| 2004-09-02 3:52:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 badanov, no need to discuss this further.. You have clearly no clue about what really happens in Chechnya.

You didnt answer my question.

Give me one instance in which the Russian Army has committed war crimes. All you gotta do is answer; not dismiss me as stupid.

One answer.

Just one instance. One event. Enlighten me.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-02 3:56:24 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-02 3:56:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Lyot-Instead of telling us "you clearly have no clue about what really happens in Chechnya", persuade us, with facts, reason, or the history of the area, if you are from there, and tie it into your philosophy of why these criminals are ok but the Russian army criminals aren't.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-02 4:07:34 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:07:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 And another thing?

If you use ANY material from kavkaz, Amnesty International or any 'human rights' organization, governemental or private, I will consider you as a dishonest person and I will then dismiss you as the troll you most likely are.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-02 4:09:20 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-02 4:09:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 first war : village of Samaskhi, hundreds of civilian death

second war : too many to mention..Unlawfull killings of civilians who have been detained in "zatchistka"'s.. Just have a look at http://www.memo.ru/eng/memhrc/texts/petropav.shtml

To throw the ball back, I would be more then happy to be informed of cases of court martialed Russian Officers..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 4:12:42 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:12:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 jules,

I'm not from there.. I work with Chechen refugees almost on a daily basis..I do not have the time to go into facts, reason and history of the area today, but will try to do tomorrow.. I never said those criminals are okay. The only thing I know is that Russian policies there are the perfect breeding ground for more terrorists..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 4:15:19 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:15:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 #10 Yes, i think it is wiser to give in to the terrorists, if the alternative is the death of over 100 children. Or do you really believe these 20 terrorists can be taken out so easily without bloodshed ? I would call that naive..

lyot, please indicate where appeasement has ever worked in the past. If you are unable to do so, please cease with your twaddle. One question; Do the Chechens (or Ingush) even want a democracy? I think theocracy is more what they have in mind. That's "theocracy," as in Iran, Taleban Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and so many of the 22 non-democratic Middle East states that are responsible for the bulk of global terrorism. Should we permit the Ingush and Chechens to establish their own little ~~terrorist havens~~ theocracies?

If the terrorists are ceded even the least of their demands, for every child that dies in that school, another 1,000 will die in copy-cat terrorist attacks subsequent to this one. While the Russians are no angels, taking a school full of children hostage goes beyond the pale.

This attack facilitates retaliation in kind against the families of terrorists. Of course, they do not realize this, but it stands to reason nonetheless. We should refrain from such wanton savagery, but if this sort of schoolhouse terror persists, then it will become necessary to begin killing entire villages of terrorist enclaves.

Do you see where this is leading, lyot? It's called the slippery slope. Not Russia, but the terrorists have clambered out onto it. That they are so cowardly as to drag hundreds of children with them into the crosshairs is sufficient reason alone to kill every one of their murderous kind.

Again, lyot, tell me what use appeasement serves. I'm waiting for your reply.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-02 4:16:58 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:16:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 badanov, then our discussion is finished.. Like I already thought, it's useless to have this discussion with you..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 4:18:09 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:18:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 "If you use ANY material from kavkaz, Amnesty International or any 'human rights' organization, governemental or private, I will consider you as a dishonest person and I will then dismiss you as the troll you most likely are."

If someone uses material from Amnesty International you dismiss them as trolls? Why, because AI tends to dislike torture and that's inconvenient to all supporters of torture?

Tough luck for you, badanov -- you've chosen a fool's game when defending Russian policy in Chechnya, because it's been about the same as Sudanese policy in Darfur, or Saddam's policy against the Kurds. That you have defended makes *me* dismiss *you*.

Here from Human Rights Watch (feel free to consider me a troll for using HRW as evidence)
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/russchech/

Here from Amnesty International (feel free to consider me a troll for using info from more organizations that hate torture)
http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html

Let me clear about this, lest people intentionally "misunderstand": NOTHING THAT THE RUSSIANS DID CAN POSSIBLY EXCUSE CHECHEN TERRORISM. But the Russian tactics already displayed do show that mere brutality doesn't help stop it either.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-09-02 4:27:55 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:27:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 In RB's opinion, How many lives/years must be lost before the civilized world outlaws the teachings and practices of Islam? I mean, we continuely hear from "moderate" clerics that these awful practices are approved against the west. How long before we start fighting a less sensitive war?

Posted by Sid 6.7 2004-09-02 4:40:55 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:40:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 zenster,
appeasement will save the couple of hundred civilians that are now threatened by this commando.. So, yes, it would have an immediate positive effect. I do not believe that applying more violence is ever going to solve the Chechen problem. You seem to be advocating total genocice. Then I do prefer I much simpler solution : let the Chechens have their independent republic, and fence them of from the rest of Russia. I do believe this is a far better solution then going down the slippery slope. It will mean Russia lost this war, but in a sense, it already has . By the way, if Chechnya ends up independent, it will not become a fundamentalist Islamic republic.. There's not enough support among Chechen civilians for a fundamentalist regime . Not even after 10 years of horrible war..

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 4:46:59 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:46:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 You prefer appeasement. We circle back to #23...

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-02 4:51:50 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:51:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 jules,
there are not only terrorists involved in this war..Russians need to talk with the former democratically elected government, and pick up the peace proces.. Maschadov needs to distance himself from the likes of Basayev.. I'm convinced this is the only way Chechnya will not longer be a breeding ground for terrorists.

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 4:55:45 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:55:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 #41 I do not believe that applying more violence is ever going to solve the Chechen problem. You seem to be advocating total genocice.

While more violence may not solve the "Chechen problem," it is certainly required to eliminate terrorists who would take hundreds of school children hostage. You continue to ignore how any ceding to these terrorists' demands will spawn a raft of copy-cat schoolhouse hostage takings. What is your solution to preventing any more of these horrors?

As to "advocating total genocide." Please go back and reread my post. I said that the terrorists venturing out onto the slippery slope of using children as political pawns will likely result in their own families being slaughtered along with the terrorists themselves. How is that "advocating total genocide?"

Terrorism is simply unacceptable. It must be countered with lethal force so as to extinguish the poisonous viral meme that it is. This crisis in particular explicitly demonstrates the utter lack of restraint that terrorists routinely exhibit. How do you suggest countering such a virulent capacity for mayhem? You have also yet to show where appeasement has ever served to limit totalitarianism or theocracy.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-02 4:59:12 PM|| 2004-09-02 4:59:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Lyot-It is obvious from your explanation that I need to beef up my knowledge on Chechnya-I cannot address your specifics today.

However, are you saying that the people, ANY PEOPLE, holding hundreds of kids hostage under threat of death are not terrorists?

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-02 5:02:09 PM|| 2004-09-02 5:02:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 then it will become necessary to begin killing entire villages of terrorist enclaves.

every Chechen village has terrorists/resistance fighters.. If you are going to start wipe out these villages, there is not much of Chechnya that's going to be left..That's why I thought you were referring to genocide as a solution .

I'm not sure there will be a stream of copy cat actions, if you try to solve the main issue, which is the status of Chechnya. In my opinion, giving Chechnya it's independence can not be equalled with appeasement to the terrorists as there is also something like a Chechen resistance with , in my view, legitimate aims ( taking into account the Khasavyurt accords of 1996 between the Russian state and the Chechen party). Terrorism is unacceptable, but the Chechen resistance is legitimate. From day one, Putin has brushed aside the legitimate Chechen government and labelled them all as terrorists. This was clearly a very faulty strategy, and it should be reversed. I do not know if it is possible, but it's far more preferable over applying more indiscriminate violence. In the Caucusus, violence only breeds more violence. This problem is going on for more then 400 years now.

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 5:11:56 PM|| 2004-09-02 5:11:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 jules, no of course not, thes kind of people ARE terrorists.. and I do not doubt they will go all the way to terrorize the Russians civilian population, Let it be clear that I do NOT defend their actions in ANY way...I just would like to see a solution for the Chechnya problem, and I fear 'more violence' is not a good option.

Posted by lyot 2004-09-02 5:15:05 PM|| 2004-09-02 5:15:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Russian troops are notorious for grabbing Chechen civilians, shaking them down for money, and even torturing and killing them. Russian military tactics in Chechnya are primitive and stupid. The Chechen bloodbath will continue so long as the Russian military is riddled with incompetence, corruption, demoralization, and complete lack of discipline and accountability.

Posted by lex 2004-09-02 5:18:56 PM|| 2004-09-02 5:18:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Lex is backing up Lyot's basic point. The Russian campaign in Chechnya has been crude to put it nicely. There is no effort that I have ever heard about at real nation building or even minimizing collateral damage during campaigns. There is no effective effort to build up the non-Islamist portion of the population and get them on the side of mother Russia. The scum that took the kids need to die, but Putin and Russia need to do a much more effective job than they have done in Chechnya (or as the Beeb reporters say Chech-Nyaaaah).

Posted by remote man 2004-09-02 5:38:44 PM|| 2004-09-02 5:38:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 #46 I'm not sure there will be a stream of copy cat actions

Then I must refer you to the spate of kidnappings in Iraq. Their continuation is a direct result of acquiescence to the kidnappers' demands. Expect the same should any cooperation be shown to these current thugs. It is all the same sort of mentality.

I will agree that unwarranted violence is not any sort of solution in Chechnya. I have no doubts that the ham-fisted Russian military has perpetrated all sorts of misery in the region.

Again, taking hundreds of children hostage only serves to taint any putative goals the Chechens (or Ingush) have. Doing so opens the door for reprisals in kind and further serves to justify any previous brutality. The terrorists are merely sealing their doom.

Posted by Zenster 2004-09-02 5:42:02 PM|| 2004-09-02 5:42:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 This crisis should wake us up to a sobering fact: if Russia blows up, we're screwed. Former SU nukes will be on suitcases faster than you can wire money from Paris to Dubai. "Blowing up" means a collapse of the central Russian state and dissolution of Russia into one island of western prosperity (aka Moscow) surrounded by various mafiya/FSB/governor-bandit fiefdoms and a Chinese proxy in the Far East. Time for us to get serious about intensive cooperation to Putin to help him fix that toxic waste zone that is the Russian military in exchange for an end to Russian support for Iran's nuke program and a massive increase in US trade and investment into the Russian oil industry. France and Russia are both trying to balance us and the muslims. But whereas France is not an ally, never will be, and is already gone over to the EUrabians, Russia can be transformed into a friendly rival given the right diplomacy. New Entente: US + Israel + India + Turkey + Russia. Dream it, believe it, make it happen.

Posted by lex 2004-09-02 5:48:16 PM|| 2004-09-02 5:48:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Iyot, Today's Strategypage has a high level summary of the past decade of activity in Chechnya - would you say that it's a fair handed description?
It's at:
http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=RUSSIA.HTM

My attempt at a link is LINK

Posted by mft 2004-09-02 5:49:44 PM|| 2004-09-02 5:49:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Lyot-Is this what these hostage taking terrorists are basically saying:
Free Chechnya or else dead kids, bombings. Right? Deadly blackmail. I had a feeling that the tolerance of blackmail as a normal part of daily life would fit somewhere in this discussion. I saw plenty of it myself in eastern Europe: WIDESPREAD APATHY about AND ACCEPTANCE of BLACKMAIL. It is a corrupted moral left over from the Soviet days. Topic for another day...

Lyot-I wish that violence would stop there, too. But my wishing won't stop that terrorist from shooting, will it.

Posted by jules 187 2004-09-02 6:10:02 PM|| 2004-09-02 6:10:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 This will never end until 1 of 2 outcomes occur.
1. Islam changes, decides to become a real religion and join humanity.
2. The world exterminates every trace of Islam from the face of the earth.

We've given Islam over 900 years to take option 1. They have consistently refused to do so. Therefore, it is in my personal opinion, time for the world to commit to option 2. I have no mercy, compassion or pity for any muslim or those following Islam until they take option 1, or no longer exist. If they wish to act human, then the human race will welcome them with open arms. Until then, they are plague to be wiped out.

Posted by Silentbrick 2004-09-02 6:27:06 PM|| 2004-09-02 6:27:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Chechnya isn't about nation building. It isn't about diplomacy with Chechen murderers. It is about putting down a criminal revolt.

Period.

And Lyo,t that village in Russia, village of Samaskhi? It wasn't Russian Army. It was Interior Ministry troops. You didnt mention that did you? Like it or not that is a HUGE difference, at least for me.

This action has been called a massacre, but by international law, it was murder, if in fact it was a massacre. But it was no war crime.

So don't log on here and jerk off about your credentials in dealing with Chechen refugees and twist facts as they can be found.

And the 250 number? How was that come by. Did the Red Cross count the bodies; did Chechen muslims count the bodies. Or did they just pull a number out of thin air, as they usually do? Which is it? I want a reliable source, not Amnesty, not any 'human rights organization, but from official sources.

Posted by badanov 2004-09-02 7:18:36 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-09-02 7:18:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Silentbrick> It is a "real religion" with all the signs of brutality and intolerance that all other "real religions" have also portrayed in the areas they've governed.

And "they" is not a monolithic group that has "refused" to do something. On my part I think you should keep your "lack of mercy, compassion, and pity" for the specific terrorists, rather than try to spread it on all practitioners of Islam and demand that the whole of Islam changes before you show any mercy on any Muslim child.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-09-02 7:20:34 PM|| 2004-09-02 7:20:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 AK (47): "... brutality and intolerance that all other "real religions" have also portrayed in the areas they've governed."

Past tense is correct. But there are some "real" religions that did not. Buddhism comes to mind.

See, there is this magical device called "separation of church and state". In the case of Islam, there are built defence mechanisms into its core against such a separation, Islam=state, and beside being religion, it is also a political ideology. That is a major problem.

As for differing groups of Islam, be so kind and please elucidate which one did not refuse to do something. Better yet, which one "agreed" to do something, as the previous may be too ambiguous.
I do mean a major sect of Islam that is not presently hallucinating about jihad an khilafah.
Ahmadiyyans don't count, they are considered non-islamic apostates by sunnis and shias likewise.

10? 5? 2? ONE?

[crickets...]

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-02 7:42:30 PM|| 2004-09-02 7:42:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 I'm not talking about "sects", I'm talking about people and populations. Bosnian muslims for example haven't gone on any sort of jihad -- on the opposite they've had Serb christian "jihad" waged against them.

And Turkey's muslims are ofcourse presently busier hallucinating about EU membership than about waging jihadi war.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-09-02 7:51:35 PM|| 2004-09-02 7:51:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Oh, yea, pick a few cherries...

Bosnians, not entirely true. Serbians were returning the jihad that Bosnians were waging during WW2 through their Muslim SS corps.
Unfortunately, AQ got a pretty nice foothold in Bosnia and I would not be surprised to see some return on their "investment".

As for Turks, they are mostly on the Islam perifery, sort of secular Islam if you will, only outwardly Islamic. But there are hard core jihadis amongst them as well, minority, but well hidden and able to operate because of assumptions like yours.

Bin Turki, a Saudi prince, has been inteviewed recently, and indignantly pointed out that the Islamist radicals... nothing to it, as they comprise only some 10% of muslims. I would say he is underestimating for obvious reasons.

But let's take that figure for granted. OK, let's see, 1.3 billion muslims, so that is... 130,000,000 jihadis. Yes, 130 million. That is an effin' mighty army. Don't you think?

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-02 8:07:45 PM|| 2004-09-02 8:07:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 "Turks, they are mostly on the Islam perifery, sort of secular Islam if you will, only outwardly Islamic. But there are hard core jihadis amongst them as well, minority, but well hidden and able to operate because of assumptions like yours. "

If we are talking about the presence of isolated samples, then ofcourse there's hard core jihadists in Turkey as well, the same way there exist Christian Neonazis and other racists in each and every Western country. So I'm making no "assumptions" here -- the assumptions are only made by those who want to see all populations as monolithic because it's convenient.

Do you think that the Serbs would have waged no war, had Muslims never cooperated with the SS? That's just an *excuse*, of the type that could be used to justify every terrorist act from 9/11 to Chechenya.

And as for the rest, since I've never disputed the danger of Islamofascism, you're preaching to the choir. An organized 10% can overthrow whole governments and rule over the other 90% -- as has happened before.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-09-02 8:24:19 PM|| 2004-09-02 8:24:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 "Do you think that the Serbs would have waged no war, had Muslims never cooperated with the SS?"

No, of course not. Balkan is just littered with ethnic/religious groups that would go after others' throats given opportunity and excuse. And if you look into history, you would probably find a plenty of justifications in any given year going back at least 600 years.

Right or wrong, Serbs felt under a threat from Bosnian muslims. There have been attrocities on both sides (if I take Croats out of the equation). For political reasons, the Serbian wrongdoings got much more press, perhaps because they were militaruily stronger and the liberal POV favored the underdog.

Rinse and repeat with Kosovo. Now Albanian Kosovars are obliterating old, centuries old churches and any traces of Serbian presence, whenever they can.

What can I say, Balkans. Since you have a Greek name, this is probably nothing new to you.

As for your comment about monolitic populations perception... That is not the case. However, in time of war, one does not have the luxury of making distinction. That approach would get you eliminated from the gene pool pretty quick.

I know, we are not yet at the stage of full scale war. At least not in the conventional sense. I am sorry to say it, but it is coming and it is inevitable. It would be assymetrical, confusing, and painful. Because it would take a while for people to realize that applying PC approach to war leads to a blind alley.

Posted by Zarathustra 2004-09-02 8:52:55 PM|| 2004-09-02 8:52:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Just a hunch but does anybody think this has anything to do with/will culminate on september 11th?

Posted by FWTB-DLTR 2004-09-02 11:50:22 PM|| 2004-09-02 11:50:22 PM|| Front Page Top

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