Article

2004-07-27 Home Front: WoT

Confirmed: Syrian Musicians Overstayed Visas; FAMA Approves of Jacobsen's Actions

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Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-07-27 8:22:53 AM|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 To all you moonbats out there, this is an example of how being PC could possibly get you killed. But that's ok so long as you don't hurt anyone's feelings.
I for one would have taken Misha's advice and told them to try and pull something or sit the F**k down.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-07-27 9:30:50 AM|| 2004-07-27 9:30:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Hair dryers would fit into instrument cases quite nicely...intriguing.

Posted by jules 187 2004-07-27 10:32:21 AM|| 2004-07-27 10:32:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Me too... f*ck pc - it's a major achilles heel. If arabs bug you on a flight then tell them the score - sit down and shut up or get knocked out. I sense the liberals will only wake up when the remains of their relatives are being scooped into a sandwich bag.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-07-27 10:33:40 AM|| 2004-07-27 10:33:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 A question:

Why is it that we, as Americans, are expected to follow and respect the customs and culture of foreign countries that we might visit, lest we be seen to be "Ugly Americans", while the customs and culture of people that come here to either visit or take up residence are to be respected, lest we be considered "insensitive"?

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-07-27 10:47:40 AM|| 2004-07-27 10:47:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 BAR -- because, silly, the US has neither culture nor customs!

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-07-27 10:49:07 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-07-27 10:49:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Sounds like a pretty good cover to me. Fly all over the country, in relatively large groups, to predominantly Muslim areas. Travelling Imam is a bit to obvious these days.

Posted by Anonymous5019 2004-07-27 10:58:49 AM|| 2004-07-27 10:58:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 According to the 911 Commission, the enemy is radical Islam- period! Of course there are some blond haire white guys doing that trip also but mostly they are Pakis, Arabs, Moors etc. So racial profiling is paramount and so is citizen viligence of the highest order. I went back to look at the 19 nut jobs of 911 and they all were dark complected, dark hair and Arab looking. Why shouldn't I be interested in a group of them acting suspicious on an airplane I am on. Only guys like Kerry would nuance this to death - then it would be his own and the others on board!

Posted by Jack is Back! 2004-07-27 12:44:55 PM|| 2004-07-27 12:44:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 The Jacobsens have become the subject of ridicule on some blogs and criticized in one media report by an unnamed government source, but the Federal Air Marshals Association (FAMA) issued a statement Sunday backing the family. FAMA also called on the government to release the recording of the pilotâs call to air traffic control for law-enforcement assistance...Pilots and marshals say the flight crew and onboard marshals were obviously concerned and the Joint Terrorism Task Force would not be deployed in routine cases of upset or unruly passengers...

So much for Aris's argument that Anne Jacobsen was an hysterical racist and implying that anyone who emphathized with Annie's concerns was KKK material.

This also debunks the "nay sayers'" argument that the air marshalls disagreed with Annie's evaluation of the situation - wrongo- FAMA supports her 100%. It was the infamous "un-named" gov't source [ie. perhaps an Homeland Security PC flunkie who tried to defuse bad PR for airlinies??] who called Annie's credibility into question.

As others have said on another thread, Syria is running a proxy war against our GI's in Iraq, so why hasn't State Dept. put a moratorium on Syrian nationals travelling into the USA? In fact, I recall not so long ago [does someone else remember this as well?]that the Prez and Congress decided to implement some resolution against Syria, which btw had been in the pipeline since Slick Willy's days, because of Syria's involvement in Iraq? What happened to all that Congressional "tough posturing" against Syria?

Can any of you imagine what would have happened to 14 blonde blue eyed Caucasian males pulling this kind of stunt on a jetliner, even at the most innocent level of hi-jinx? They would have got their butts kicked into their seats pronto by the air marshalls on board and furthermore they would ikely have been fined for causing a distraction and hazard to the pilots and stewardesses and passengers.End of story.

Posted by rex 2004-07-27 1:05:12 PM|| 2004-07-27 1:05:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Step down and apologize, Jacobsen-bashers.

Posted by someone 2004-07-27 1:51:59 PM|| 2004-07-27 1:51:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Check out the article about Nour Mehana, the Syrian American Wayne Newton who imported the 14 aforementioned Syrian band members, posted on page 2 today entitled:"The Notorious Syrian Band--Singing of Peace, Love, and Martyrdom"
One of Mehana's songs on a recent CD is entitled "Mother of Martyr." No doubt Homeland Security has checked out Mehana and given him their PC seal of approval...can't you hear them chatting over the water cooler: "a creative person who is merely exercising artistic free speech"...like what the sensitive, open minded gov't offical surmised about Mohammed Atta[from the article link]:
Johnelle Bryant, an official with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, met up with Mohammed Atta several times before September 11. After Atta threatened to slit her throat, talked about blowing up major United States cities and landmarks,and came back to her in a disguise pretending to be someone else, Ms. Bryant had this to say: "I felt that he was trying to make the cultural leap from the country that he came from. I was attempting,in every manner I could,to help him make his relocation into our country as easy for him as I could."

Posted by rex 2004-07-27 2:20:08 PM|| 2004-07-27 2:20:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I don't know much about music but, but I will say that The Travelling Imams is a pretty good name for a band.

Posted by Col Flagg 2004-07-27 2:26:53 PM|| 2004-07-27 2:26:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Great stuff, rex!
And do we have to add for Ms. Johnelle on Atta,
"Besides, I thought he was cute and he made me feel pretty!"?

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-27 2:27:22 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-27 2:27:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 I dunno, Col. Flagg.
I'm kinda partial to the Singing Fatwas.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-27 2:37:55 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-27 2:37:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Anybody got a link to the Federal Air Marshals Asociation statement?

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-07-27 2:40:41 PM|| 2004-07-27 2:40:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 MD: Anybody got a link to the Federal Air Marshals Asociation statement?

I don't think they have a web site. But this is a news article, not somebody's opinion of what they said.

As I've written elsewhere, from a terror recruiter's perspective, flight student-quality people are a lot harder to find than musician-quality people, given that it takes a lot to learn to fly a jumbo jet - they do get six figure incomes. There's nothing particularly surprising about musicians being recruited for terror attacks, much less trial runs for the real operatives.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-07-27 3:32:01 PM|| 2004-07-27 3:32:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 #8 As others have said on another thread, Syria is running a proxy war against our GI's in Iraq, so why hasn't State Dept. put a moratorium on Syrian nationals travelling into the USA? In fact, I recall not so long ago [does someone else remember this as well?]that the Prez and Congress decided to implement some resolution against Syria, which btw had been in the pipeline since Slick Willy's days, because of Syria's involvement in Iraq? What happened to all that Congressional "tough posturing" against Syria?

Excellent point, rex. This is the most important question of all. Why hasn't the government put in place comprehensive screening for arrivals from ALL nations known to be harboring or sponsoring terrorists?

Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Sudan ... the list goes on. If an able bodied person within the correct age range from any of these countries seeks admittance into America, they should be subjected to thorough scrutiny. No profiling, JUST 100% SCREENING.

Plus, this "expired visa" bullsh!t has got to end. If you attempt to enter or exit this country without you paperwork ducklings in a neat row, be prepared for the full mug shot, fingerprinting, cavity search and miss-your-flight-while-we-clean-your-clock routine.

Posted by Zenster 2004-07-27 4:29:07 PM|| 2004-07-27 4:29:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 I'm kinda partial to the Singing Fatwas.
How about "The Fatwa Man Sings".

Posted by Anonymous4385 2004-07-27 5:10:06 PM|| 2004-07-27 5:10:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 But, hey, itâs just "racist paranoia" to notice it.

Read Jacobsen's own words, kiddo. She was terrified of them before she noticed anything "suspicious" at all -- even if we accept all her words as accurate descriptions of what actually happened. And when security cleared them after the fact, she still stuck implying they were terrorists. Nobody noticed this in the above article: "Everything that we and other agencies have found indicates, and we are very confident in saying, these individuals were not terrorists by any means," Mr. Boyd said. "

Bingo.

My calling her a paranoid racist stands. I'm not attacking the air marshalls who were worried for supposed suspicious behavious. I'm not attacking the pilots who called for aid. I'm attacking the ones who keep on calling the musicians "terrorists" even after the fact of them being cleared.

And as a sidenote I very much doubt that FAMA's as yet unknown "backing" of Jacobsen includes supporting all the implications of cowardice and incompetence that Jacobsen herself and people in this forum made against the same Air Marshalls.

And as a further sidenote, I doubt that terrorist having a year's visa would *truly* require to overstay their visits by a month before they cause mischief. This article itself says that out of the 19 hijackers of 9/11 only 3 of them had expired visas.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-27 5:11:58 PM|| 2004-07-27 5:11:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 "This article itself says that out of the 19 hijackers of 9/11 only 3 of them had expired visas."
You just blew up your own argument, Krapsaris!
No one had any more (and a lot less) reason to think that the 19 hijackers of 9/11 were "terrorists" either, unless one took into account that all of these men, Syrian "band" members included, are/were swarthy-skinned, dark-haired, dark-eyed, from Middle Eastern countries and Muslim, meaning that they adhere to the use of murder and violence against non-Muslims to take over the world for Islam.
Let the racial profiling begin.
Call me a paranoid racist all you want, but I will be a LIVING paranoid rascist!
(And being opposed to Muslims, especially jihadi Muslims, isn't rascism anyway! Being a member of a politico-religious system isn't a race!)

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-27 5:27:18 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-27 5:27:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 "You just blew up your own argument, Krapsaris!"

As customary with you, you never understood my argument. It isn't what you seem to think it is, and I certainly didn't "blow" it.

And when are you going to grow out of the kindergarten insults?

"Call me a paranoid racist all you want,"

Thank you. I will.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-27 6:04:24 PM|| 2004-07-27 6:04:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Read Jacobsen's own words, kiddo. She was terrified of them before she noticed anything "suspicious" at all

You're lying, Aris. I just re-read her article, and that's not what she says at all. Just the opposite, in fact.

And when security cleared them after the fact, she still stuck implying they were terrorists.

Another lie. Again, I just re-read the article, and she did nothing of the sort.

Maybe you're once more confusing Jacobsen's story with another one you read? Yeah, that must be it. It can't be that you're wrong; you're Aris -- you're never wrong. Or maybe you never read Jacobsen's article, and are going with what you THINK it said.

My calling her a paranoid racist stands.

Of course it does, Aris.

I'm attacking the ones who keep on calling the musicians "terrorists" even after the fact of them being cleared.

Strawman. The point isn't that they were terrorists, but that they could have been. I'm sure you remember that similar suspicious behavior by the 9/11 hijackers before 9/11 was spotted -- and reported! This is part of what people need to be aware of, because awareness and vigilance may just save thousands of lives.

And as a sidenote I very much doubt that FAMA's as yet unknown "backing" of Jacobsen includes supporting all the implications of cowardice and incompetence that Jacobsen herself and people in this forum made against the same Air Marshalls.

Strawman, lie, or simply another bit of evidence that you never read Jacobsen's article. No where in Jacobsen's article does she even imply cowardice or incompetence on the part of Air Marshalls. Are you SURE you read Jacobsen's article? I'm beginning to think you haven't, or that you've let it run together with your fantasy version of what she wrote.

You're pretty desperate, Aris. Almost as if you know you've run out on a limb and had it sawed off behind you, but you haven't the class to admit it.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-07-27 6:04:31 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-07-27 6:04:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 And when are you going to grow out of the kindergarten insults?

Pot. Kettle.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-07-27 6:05:23 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-07-27 6:05:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 The point isn't that they were terrorists, but that they could have been.

If that's the "point", then there'd be no dispute. Because I've already *agreed* that they *could* have been. When I said it was good that the air marshals kept an eye out on them and on the lavatories in question.

No, the problem is that Jen and others, including Jacobsen keep on insisting and implying that they *are* terrorists, regardless of lack of evidence to the same.

I'm mostly ignoring the rest of your babble. But isn't e.g. this sentence "Since the FBI issued a warning to the airline industry to be wary of groups of five men on a plane who might be trying to build bombs in the bathroom, shouldn't a group of 14 Middle Eastern men be screened before boarding a flight? " an accusation of incompetence? Isn't "No one checked the passports of the Syrian men. No one inspected the contents of the two instrument cases or the McDonald's bag. And no one checked the limping man's orthopedic shoe. " also accusations of incompetence?

"I asked Adams why, based on the FBI's credible information that terrorists may try to assemble bombs on planes, the air marshals or the flight attendants didn't do anything about the bizarre behavior and frequent trips to the lavatory. "

Aren't these also implications of incompetence?

It's Jen who implied cowardice ofcourse, not Jacobsen. And as for being terrified even before anything suspicious happened, Jacobsen herself says how nervous she got after Middle-eastern men were greeting each other by head-gestures when first seeing each other. If you call that suspicious behaviour, then you are right she was only being scared after such suspicious behaviour. Me who don't consider it even approaching "suspicious", think she was just being racist.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-27 6:23:52 PM|| 2004-07-27 6:23:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 And when are you going to grow out of the kindergarten insults? Pot. Kettle.

Aren't you the person who called me a "cunt", then when I chose to ignore it, decided to keep on pestering me with the same word the next day in different threads, until I responded to it? Want the link of *those* threads, also, to have others judge our relative maturity?

And isn't Jen the person who wastes her time finding different ways to mock my name?

Kindergarten bullies, both of you, using kindergarten tactics.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-27 6:37:50 PM|| 2004-07-27 6:37:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Robert, you RULE!
On my own behalf and that my fellow Americans, thank you! :-)

Aris, give it up, you propagandist moron!
The Syrian "band's" biggest hit just happens to be "Mother of a Martyr," about a Paleostinian suicide bomber?

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-27 6:39:49 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-27 6:39:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 I'm mostly ignoring the rest of your babble.

Got ya, didn't I? You've been creatively embellishing your recollection of Jacobsen's article.

Aris, how many of the things you think are accusations of incompetence actually apply to the Air Marshalls? Only the last deals with them, and I think you're still reaching to avoid admitting you're wrong.

It could be a cultural difference, of course. Here in the US we don't take questions to automatically be accusations.

Me who don't consider it even approaching "suspicious", think she was just being racist.

Most people consider the accusation of racism to be pretty serious. Apparently you don't, considering how lightly you throw it around.

So how do you feel about Greek police focusing on a Muslim area of Athens out of fear -- no evidence at all, mind you, just the fear -- of a terrorist cell in the area? More racist paranoia, right?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-07-27 6:40:20 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-07-27 6:40:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Katsi, How is profiling for Arab Muslim males racist?
Why does that differ from normal police profiling of suspects who've been known to commit crimes?

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-27 6:43:08 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-27 6:43:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 And Aris, what do you care?
You're never coming to this country and none of this will ever be applied to you.
We need to do what we need to do to save our own lives!
3,000 civilians dead is already too many.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-27 6:47:09 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-27 6:47:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 You guys should take this somewhere else. Nothing substantive being added to this argument at this point and only wasting Fred's bandwidth.

Posted by remote man 2004-07-27 6:50:59 PM|| 2004-07-27 6:50:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Kindergarten bullies, both of you, using kindergarten tactics.

I'm sorry, Aris. I thought that someone who slung insults and slanders around like you do could take a bit of ribbing.

Pardon me for over-estimating the thickness of your skin.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-07-27 6:54:30 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-07-27 6:54:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 We need to do what we need to do to save our own lives! 3,000 civilians dead is already too many.
I agree with you 1000%. The federal gov't is charged with the responsibility of protecting and defending our security. Profiling of potential terrorists is essential in this day and age of extremist Islamic terrorism. How else does our government tell the difference between a "good" Muslim vistor and a "nasty" Muslim visitor except by closer scrutiny? Visitors are allowed into our country at our convenience.

Here's a link to a gov't discussion of this very topic...notice the usual suspects[ACLU lawyers] who argue against profiling...
http://www.house.gov/transportation/press/press2002/release195.html
âWhile most of the American public that has flown since September 11th have been willing to put up with delays, personal searches and increased security procedures, we need to carefully examine alternative screening measures for the future,â said U.S. Rep. John Mica (R-FL), the Chairman of the Subcommittee. âWe continue to hear complaints about the passengers who seem to get selected for additional screening and some of those selected make no sense. âSecurity experts tell us that we should focus more on people and less on things. âOur current profiling system is based on a computer program that was developed several years ago. The Justice Department has reviewed this program and concluded that it does not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, or national origin. However, as far as I know, nobody has looked at this program recently to determine whether it makes any sense. âI believe profiling, properly done, can enhance aviation security. But I am concerned that, as currently employed, it is undermining public confidence in our security system.â

...Rafi Ron, the former chief in charge of security in the Israeli Airport Authority, outlined some historical background the hijacking and terrorists problems that led Israel to adopt an aviation security profiling system. âThe answer to this need came in the development of a systematic, real time, investigation of the passenger profile,â Ron said. âThis well designed procedure allows the security officer to make a decision, based on identifying the level of risk, as to the level of checks to be performed before the passenger is allowed to board the aircraft...Ron said the profiling method has been âvery successful for the last 32 years by the state of Israel.â...Ron added that 100 percent baggage screening, while of paramount importance, âcannot prevent the September 11th type attack.â âThe missing element is the human factor and without relating to it we leave the room for future attacks,â Ron said

...Prof. Jonathan Turley, law professor at George Washington University Law School and the Maurice C. Shapiro Chair for Public Interest Law, told the Subcommittee that the issue of profiling was âso heavily laden with deep societal conflicts that it is often difficult to hold a meaningful conversation about the merits and dangers of profiling.â...âIt has been said that the United States Constitution is not a suicide pact,â Turley said. âWhile protecting core liberties, it is a document that also allows for the accommodation of transient government needs or exigent circumstance.â...Turley added:âProfiling may be an inevitable response to the dangers evident at airports. Every month, over 40 million people travel by air in this country. It is simply practically impossible to closely scrutinize every passenger while maintaining a functioning air travel system...As a result, airlines must make choices and select which passengers to subject to closer scrutiny.â âDue to the erroneous inclination of the public to consider âprofilingâ and âracial profilingâ as synonymous, there has been an unwillingness of airlines to implement any formal profiling systems. Instead, the primary identification process remains the random selection process.â ...Turley said the odds of randomly selecting a terrorist were about equal to the 41-million-to-one odds of winning the California lottery.

Posted by rex 2004-07-27 7:16:54 PM|| 2004-07-27 7:16:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 "You've been creatively embellishing your recollection of Jacobsen's article."

Yeah, all those direct quotes are just my creative embellishment.

"Aris, how many of the things you think are accusations of incompetence actually apply to the Air Marshalls? "

One. From Jacobsen. Do I need any more to say that she accused them of incompetence? Now Jen ofcourse accused them multiple times.

"Here in the US we don't take questions to automatically be accusations. "

Perhaps there in the US you must learn to occasionally read between the lines. Sometimes questions *are* accusations.

"How is profiling for Arab Muslim males racist? "

Never said it was. In fact I have explicitely said that I've NOT argued either in favour nor against profiling. I've offered no opinion on profiling in general. Because I don't think that an opinion can be offered without knowing the specifics of each kind of "profiling".

But you keep on ignoring that, same way you ignore everything that challenges your moronic assumptions about me.

"Most people consider the accusation of racism to be pretty serious. "

So is the accusation of terrorism.

"So how do you feel about Greek police focusing on a Muslim area of Athens out of fear -- no evidence at all, mind you, just the fear -- of a terrorist cell in the area? More racist paranoia, right?"

No, that's simply profiling, not racist paranoia. Racist paranoia would have been if a person insisted that simply keeping an eye on the area (rather than e.g. imposing martial law) is cowardly inaction showing that the state is incapable and unwilling of protecting its citizens.

And Jen dearie, a person could create a song called "Osama bin Laden" and it'd mean nothing by itself. The *content* of the song would be more interesting to know than its title.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-27 7:20:37 PM|| 2004-07-27 7:20:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Those weren't direct quotes of Mrs. Jacobsen's, Aris.
Not even close. Robert is right: you haven't even read her account.
And I have no idea what you're babbling about now, but I do wish you'd quit.
Why post on an American board when you don't know the first thing about Americans or America?

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-27 9:53:54 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-27 9:53:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Those were direct quotes, copy-pasted directly from one of her articles. Once again Jen's grasp of reality is far, far from firm.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-27 10:33:21 PM|| 2004-07-27 10:33:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#35
#10 (Rex): Johnelle Bryant, an official with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, met up with Mohammed Atta several times before September 11.

Rex, Johnelle Bryant is not credible. Do an internet search on her name, and you'll find many articles and discussions poking holes in her story. She's a fabricator.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-07-27 10:52:52 PM|| 2004-07-27 10:52:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 My grasp of the facts is fine, thank you!
And I've linked Mrs. Jacobsen's account on my blog and she says *none* of what you alleged!
Aris is, again, making things up out of whole cloth.
And your little "anology" about Osama songs notwithstanding, the point I was making about you're not being American is that you won't have to live with profiling or not profiling on our planes, but we all do, so that's why your commentary is meaningless on this topic.
Your life isn't at risk. Ours are.
And you still haven't stated why profiling Arab Muslim males is racist because you know it isn't.
It's simple criminal profiling: here are the crimes, these are the suspects.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-27 11:16:28 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-27 11:16:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 I did not know that muslim was a race .

Posted by djohn66 2004-07-27 11:47:56 PM|| 2004-07-27 11:47:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 I googled the name Johnelle Bryant, #35, and the first hit I got was an ABC interview with the lady. She exists and her words as written in the article I quoted from in my #10 post is almost word for word from her interview with ABC.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/ross_bryant020606.html
...âHow Could I Have Known?â

Bryant never thought to report her strange encounter because she thought she was just helping a new immigrant learn about the country.

"I felt that he was trying to make the cultural leap from the country that he came from, with all the violence, as compared to the United States," she says. "I was attempting, in every manner I could, to help him make his relocation into our country as easy for him as I could make it."

His questions about American cities, she assumed, were because he had moved to a new country and he wanted to find out about the major cities...

Posted by rex 2004-07-27 11:52:51 PM|| 2004-07-27 11:52:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Mike Sylwester: Rex, Johnelle Bryant is not credible. Do an internet search on her name, and you'll find many articles and discussions poking holes in her story. She's a fabricator.

The sites poking holes in her story fall into several categories - 9/11 deniers, Islamists and anti-war activists - not that any of these categories are mutually exclusive. The criticism focuses on the fact that Bryant interviewed Atta a month before he was supposed to have arrived in-country. Genuine false passports aren't too difficult to obtain, so Muhammad Atta may have flown in with a different passport under a different name. It only takes 8 hours to fly from Prague to New York.

My conclusion is that we don't know one way or another. Did she make it up? Don't know. Without tape, we'll never be sure. What is definitely in her favor is that she took notes - as I'm sure she has to, given that her whole job is to deal with loan applicants - and the guy spelled his name out.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-07-28 12:42:15 AM|| 2004-07-28 12:42:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Beautiful place...

Um, Austria that is, not communist Poland, heh.

Posted by Rafael 2004-07-28 1:06:18 AM|| 2004-07-28 1:06:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 rex, I'll never forget reading that interview with Bryant in 2002 because Atta talked about Dallas and Texas Stadium and the Dallas Cowboys as a potential target.
He also kept telling Bryant that she was "but a woman."
If ever there were a case when someone should have picked up the phone and called Security, that was it!

Aris, you either can't read in English or have total reading comprehension failure!
Jacobsen didn't say the things you said she said. So no apology!
And you said that profiling was both "paranoid and racist" and the quotes are yours.
In that the Association of Air Marshals backed up Jacobsen, i hardly find her account either hysterical or paranoid.
Stay in Greece, drink your retsina and leave us alone to defend the entire Civilized World!

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-28 1:19:17 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-28 1:19:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 Zhang, Atta "lost" his passport and got the German government to issue him a new one, thus covering his trips to places like Prague and Afghanistan.
IIRC, he had multiple aliases, too, as did most of the 9/11 hijackers.
The first WTC bombers of 1993 all have passports from Kuwait, but the thinking is that they were Iraqis who got them when Saddam invaded Kuwait.
Check out Laurie Mylroie's fine book for more detail.
Clearly, that moron Johnelle could have had Atta arrested as a "person of interest" for threats against the US terror and as I think that Atta was the mastermind and leader, it might have stopped the 9/11 attacks right there.
How horrible for all of us that it didn't.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-28 1:25:51 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-28 1:25:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 "And you said that profiling was both "paranoid and racist"

No, I didn't. YOU LIE, Jen. You simply LIE. If you weren't LYING, you would have been able to provide a single quote of me saying "Profiling is paranoid and racist" instead of what I actually said, namely that YOU (and Jacobsen) are paranoid and racist.

So, let me repeat it Jen, in order to make it clear once and for all. Profiling isn't paranoid. It's YOU who are paranoid (and a liar). Profiling isn't always racist. It's YOU who are racist (and a liar).

And as for the quote, the quotes are there, in the exact links I gave you above, in the article written by Annie Jacobsen, speaking in Annie Jacobsen's voice, for everyone to see. You keep on brazenly LYING, Jen, as if you think that the sheer weight of your LIES will turn them into truth. You've really learned your lesson from Goebbels.

Robert Crawford, tell me, given the links I provided, do you also agree with Jen that Jacobsen never wrote the quotes I quoted? I want to see whether you'll also prove yourself an insane liar like Jen.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-28 3:08:43 AM|| 2004-07-28 3:08:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 Jen: Zhang, Atta "lost" his passport and got the German government to issue him a new one, thus covering his trips to places like Prague and Afghanistan.
IIRC, he had multiple aliases, too, as did most of the 9/11 hijackers.

Thanks for verifying that. I think the people talking about passport stamps don't want to acknowledge that fake, but real, travel documents do exist, and that cellphone call usage doesn't mean that a person is in-country at the time the usage occurs.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-07-28 9:51:42 AM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-07-28 9:51:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 Robert Crawford, tell me, given the links I provided, do you also agree with Jen that Jacobsen never wrote the quotes I quoted?

Yes, she wrote them. But before you started quoting her, you were mis-stating what she said. You started quoting Jacobsen only AFTER I pointed out your mis-statements.

But, hey, Aris, you've certainly learned your lesson from Goebbels.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-07-28 9:59:25 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-07-28 9:59:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 But before you started quoting her, you were mis-stating what she said

Where? When you yourself proved yourself an ignorant idiot when you said (#21) "No where in Jacobsen's article does she even imply cowardice or incompetence on the part of Air Marshalls."
and then I provided you the direct quote where she so implies it?

When you accused me of lying because she supposedly *didn't* keep on implying that this band were terrorists? Yeah, it's only you in the whole fucking internet who has this truly bizarre understanding of Jacobsen's words when she comments on terrorists being able to learn musical instruments and she's talking about dry runs. And it's ofcourse me whom you accused of not reading "the article", when ofcourse it's you who read just a bare synopsis of the thing.

"And when security cleared them after the fact, she still stuck implying they were terrorists." Another lie. Again, I just re-read the article, and she did nothing of the sort.

You fucking asshole. I pay more attention with the facts and am more interested in the truth than all the moronic bunch of you put together -- and when I occasionally make a mistake I freely admit it.

But when you are confronted with someone who's so much a rabid liar as Jen that even *you* can't support her lies with a straight face, it's ofcourse *me*, rather than her, whom you repeatedly accuse of lying.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-28 10:31:03 AM|| 2004-07-28 10:31:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 I don't lie--I don't have to.
Neither does Mrs. Jacobsen.
Calling your opponent a liar over and over as an excuse for an argument is a pathetic mode of discourse.
Have you thought about moving to the USA and running for office as a Democrat, Aris?

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-07-28 12:55:40 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-28 12:55:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Aris, I was unaware I had any responsibility for what Jen writes.

As for the rest of your babble -- what's the point? You've outfitted Jacoben with her white robe and peaked hat, and won't consider the possibility you're mistaken.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-07-28 1:23:18 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-07-28 1:23:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 You have responsibility for your attitude and for your hypocricy. You see who the obvious liar of this thread is, but it's me that you brand with the accusation of lying. Very nice, Crawford.

And whether I will consider "possibilities" or not is quite beside the point when I'm arguing with people that accuse me of lying when I speak of plain facts, let alone opinions. Even if you'd considered my interpretation of Jacobsen's words to be wrong when I said she was implying incompetence on the Air Marshalls' part, how would that differing interpretation make me a "liar"?

Slanderer. Bastard. Asshole.

There's no point in "considering possibilities" when I'm being called a liar when I state any opinion other than the one you like.

And there's no point in even further discussing Jen. She needs psychiatric treatment: Brandishing the exact quotes infront of her, she still denied their existence. She may not be a liar, she may simply be certifiably insane -- that's the only other possibility.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-28 4:31:21 PM|| 2004-07-28 4:31:21 PM|| Front Page Top

09:47 Steve from Relto
16:31 Aris Katsaris
13:23 Robert Crawford
12:55 GreatestJeneration
10:31 Aris Katsaris
09:59 Robert Crawford
09:51 Zhang Fei
03:16 GreatestJeneration
03:08 Aris Katsaris
01:48 OldSpook
01:35 .com
01:27 Asedwich
01:25 GreatestJeneration
01:19 GreatestJeneration
01:06 Rafael
01:06 Rafael
01:04 Rafael
00:53 rex
00:48 Rafael
00:42 .com
00:42 Zhang Fei
00:33 Rafael
00:30 Rafael
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