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2004-07-24 Africa: Horn

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Posted by Steve White 2004-07-24 12:10:44 AM|| || Front Page|| [11133 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 If the UN fails to act, it's time to fold up the tent. This is Rwanda redux.

Posted by Capt America 2004-07-24 1:49:10 AM|| [http://captamerica.blogspot.com/] 2004-07-24 1:49:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Capt America: If the UN fails to act, it's time to fold up the tent. This is Rwanda redux.

Maybe not. The Sudan has two things that Rwanda did not - oil and Muslim rulers to carry out all kinds of mischief with the money from that oil. The Muslim view now is that the US is tied up in Iraq, which may be why they're possibly financing Iraqi terrorists to keep the US tied up. If the US sweeps the Sudanese military from the field, it will have the salutary effect of reminding Muslim countries that Uncle Sam is still in the game, and that they should resist the temptation to support anti-American terrorists, lest they too be targeted.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-07-24 1:56:42 AM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-07-24 1:56:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Perhaps, but I was specifically referring to the UN passivity in the face of genocide. My point being that if the UN is in denial, then why support this lame but costly entity at all? What the hell is its mission?

Posted by Capt America 2004-07-24 2:04:00 AM|| [http://captamerica.blogspot.com/] 2004-07-24 2:04:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Until a military commander has the steel to track down the Janjaweed militants and hose them with enough lead to line a reactor, nothing will change. The Janjaweed are merely an informal military arm of Sudan's government and need to be treated accordingly. Once their bones are bleaching in the sun, the governemnt should be next. No pretext or excuse is needed to send all of them to the wall. Each and every African government that wants to instigate this sort of genocide should be decapitated in rapid succession until they get this silly notion out of their heads that human life is cheap. Only theirs should be.

We can spend the money on exceptionally brief interventions aimed at deposing these bloodthirsty vermin, or we can pour in billions of dollars after the fact mopping up all the spilled blood. I vote for the low-cost alternative.

Posted by Zenster 2004-07-24 3:32:44 AM|| 2004-07-24 3:32:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 The UN has been reluctant to use the word "genocide", - Hmmm....maybe because the US wasn't the subject matter, heh?

Posted by Don 2004-07-24 9:07:54 AM|| 2004-07-24 9:07:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I agree with #3. A mission to Sudan would be a terrible waste of GI lives and US taxpayer $. This is an unwinable situation as it stands.

I posted an article a few weeks ago that explained that there were good reasons for the reluctance of UN nations to get involved in Sudan and it does not have anything to do with lack of courage. I'm not denying that one of the reasons could be stereo typical slow UN sleepyheadeddopoeyness, but the main reason cited was a very practical, common sense one involving strategy. The challenging geography of the Sudan area makes it very very tough to get ground troops in and to supply them once they are in. In other words, it's a mission that has the makings of a bloody disaster, a trap if you will, for ground forces trying to stop the bloodshed and being sacrificed with their own bloodshed. IMO, we should not touch Sudan with a 10 foot pole. Blair is considering moving his troops in because of his Christian missionary zeal and let's face it, because of the Labour's black immigrant voting constituency. It does not mean that the US should automatically follow when this type of situation is so obviously perilous for ground troops.

This is a situation where Kofi Annan needs to twist arms of Muslim nations warming chairs on the UN Human Rights Commission to IMMEDIATELY send in peacekeeping troops to Sudan to "assist" [ie. to wise up the Sudanese gov't that their inaction with the Muslim militia is unseemly to the P.C. global marketing of Islam as the religion of peace] the Sudanese gov't to reign in the militia. Why aren't we playing the UN game for a change like it's often played against us and challenging the Muslim nations to get off their burkas and do something? Muslim peacekeeping troops are less likely to be decapitated than Western peacekeeping forces. And how about these UN chair warming Third World countries starting to earn their right to vote on global affairs and their right to gobble down foreign aid like there's no tomorrow?

Let's be realistic. Genocide will continue to happen in Sudan whether or not US/UK troops are sent there, but if our troops are sent then they will only add to the Christian genocide numbers. The article I cited also said a troop level of at least 200,000 or more would be required to pacify Sudan. Where are we going to get that many troops? Are any of you planning to volunteer yourselves and your first born to push off to Sudan? It's very noble to talk about stopping genocide, but this "mission" does not lend itself to a few thousand stout hearted marines being able to stop the killing frenzy and only promises that Marines will be part of the bloody casualties.

Posted by rex 2004-07-24 3:14:30 PM|| 2004-07-24 3:14:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 rex: The article I cited also said a troop level of at least 200,000 or more would be required to pacify Sudan.

First off, CA is talking about how it would be a good thing to do away with the UN. He is saying that the UN is botching the Sudan situation just as it did Rwanda.

I think we could topple the government with no more than a few thousand men. Black rebel groups have been fighting the Arab government for decades. The problem today is that the Arab Sudanese government has control of oil, and therefore access to the latest Chinese and Russian weapons. But they are opposed by millions of black Muslims and Christians. The odds are good that we can work with the blacks in the Sudan to destroy the Arab government just as we supported the anti-Taliban forces in Afghanistan. The only question here is whether Arab governments would object to the toppling of yet another Arab regime. We'll also get to verify for ourselves some of the rumors about Chinese troops and advisors in the Sudan.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-07-24 4:11:57 PM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-07-24 4:11:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 The Janjaweed could be totally decapitated with a dozen AC-130's. They have no armor. They have little in the way of mechanized forces. They rely a LOT on small, unarmed vehicles and even horses and camels for transport.

Do you have any idea how much lead 4 7.62 minicguns can throw out at one time? An AC-130 has two SETS, plus, in some versions, a nice 105MM howitzer for "effect".

You fly at night. They're whisper quiet - at 5000 feet up, you hardly hear them, unlike the standard C-130, that can be heard at 80 miles. Excellent night-vision goggles identify Jangaweed from the "standard" Sudanese encampment. You come across a camp in trail formation, one on each side. Suddenly all hell (an apt description) breaks loose, and everything suddenly erupts into flying bullets, exploding flames, and death.

Before you have time to react, the desert's quiet again, and the only thing to do is for the living to try to count the dead, possibly patch up a few of the wounded, and pray the death-clouds don't come back.

Just to let Khartoum know how high they are on your shit list, you run an arclight strike down the Nile river at 3:00 AM, local time. The cost of glass will shoot through the roof. Fish will float, belly-up or in tiny pieces, for 70 miles downstream, a virtual carpet of putridity. And doctors will have to treat 70,000 cases of ruptured eardrums.

There's a lot more ways of sticking it in and breaking it off than with ground troops, and sometimes the results are equally as nasty. If at first they don't learn, repeat as necessary. If they STILL don't learn, THEN you send in ground troops, use more sophisticated weapons, or alter your arclight aiming point.

We have the means to be the meanest, nastiest people on earth. We either have to develop the mental muscle to use that force when its needed, or we're still marshmallows in the world, and will continue to be kicked around. I prefer "Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil, for I'm the meanest SOB in the Valley, and nobody dares raise a finger against me". Let us continue to be kind when kindness is appreciated, and be willing to be the meanest, nastiest SOBs in the world when it isn't.

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-07-24 4:36:43 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2004-07-24 4:36:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 ZF is right. The black Sudanese don't need troops. They need weapons and knowledge. Don't you think 1 A-team can work work with hundreds or a thousand Sudanese? Why should the Americans do everything. Why now provide the weapons and training to turn the tables on the Arabs? The Arabs have already killed over 2 million black Sudanese. Will it require another 2 million? 5 million? until something is done?

The blacks are starving because the Arabs have killed and driven them off their farms. The Arabs have sheep and cattle now grazing on those farms. Let the Furs and Southern Sudanese go and take the Arabs sheep, kill and rape them, and drive their asses out of Africa. Starvation solved. Sometimes revenge is justice.

Posted by ed 2004-07-24 5:10:02 PM|| 2004-07-24 5:10:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 #6 The challenging geography of the Sudan area makes it very very tough to get ground troops in and to supply them once they are in. In other words, it's a mission that has the makings of a bloody disaster, a trap if you will, for ground forces trying to stop the bloodshed and being sacrificed with their own bloodshed. IMO, we should not touch Sudan with a 10 foot pole.

All good points, rex. Which is why I keep advocating that we go in and strafe all Janjaweed encampments as the opening bell for our "Memo to Sudan."

#8 The Janjaweed could be totally decapitated with a dozen AC-130's. They have no armor. They have little in the way of mechanized forces. They rely a LOT on small, unarmed vehicles and even horses and camels for transport. Do you have any idea how much lead 4 7.62 minicguns can throw out at one time? An AC-130 has two SETS, plus, in some versions, a nice 105MM howitzer for "effect". You fly at night. They're whisper quiet - at 5000 feet up, you hardly hear them, unlike the standard C-130, that can be heard at 80 miles. Excellent night-vision goggles identify Jangaweed from the "standard" Sudanese encampment. You come across a camp in trail formation, one on each side. Suddenly all hell (an apt description) breaks loose, and everything suddenly erupts into flying bullets, exploding flames, and death ...

There's a lot more ways of sticking it in and breaking it off than with ground troops, and sometimes the results are equally as nasty. If at first they don't learn, repeat as necessary. If they STILL don't learn, THEN you send in ground troops, use more sophisticated weapons, or alter your arclight aiming point. We have the means to be the meanest, nastiest people on earth. We either have to develop the mental muscle to use that force when its needed, or we're still marshmallows in the world, and will continue to be kicked around.

Thank you very much, Old Patriot. Your stark assessment is really spot on. I've been shouting this from the rooftops at Rantburg for some time now. The vast resources being diverted towards fighting terrorism now demand that we find short-path solutions to such vile ancillary crimes against humanity like genocide.

Strafing out the Janjaweed camps is the perfect place to begin demonstrating what awaits those who wish to indulge in war crimes. We really do not have much choice in this. International military resources are spread too thin. Accusations of American "unilateralism" are already being tossed about like little boys in a Darfur Janjaweed raid. Who gives a sh!t anymore? Let's take the gloves off and show how @ss gets properly kicked.

Posted by Zenster 2004-07-24 7:51:27 PM|| 2004-07-24 7:51:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 #8 Do you have any idea how much lead 4 7.62 minicguns can throw out at one time?

I asked an old friend of mine who was a door gunner in Vietnam if the chopper had to make course corrections due to weight lost while firing their miniguns. He said, "Hell, yes." The chopper would tend to rise in station while the guns were being shot due to lightening of payload.

Posted by Zenster 2004-07-24 7:55:11 PM|| 2004-07-24 7:55:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Look, the reality is that the UN is culipible in this matter too. The UN is a super bureaucracy that sustains itself on US funds and serves no rational mission. Time to yank the chain on these bastards.

Posted by Capt America 2004-07-24 10:31:18 PM|| [http://captamerica.blogspot.com/] 2004-07-24 10:31:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Good to see you again, Old Patriot!

Posted by Anonymous5089 2004-07-24 10:34:08 PM|| 2004-07-24 10:34:08 PM|| Front Page Top

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