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2004-05-12 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Anonymoose 2004-05-12 12:33:54 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 What a load of crap.

Can we PLEASE have a moratorium on the unsourced stories?

Oh, and "The Israeli Spy Scandal" is from the "whatreallyhappened" site, an antisemitic conspiracy nutzoid cesspool. Naturally they'd be trying to find a way to slander a murder victim.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-12 1:36:19 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-05-12 1:36:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Agree with RC.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-12 1:39:03 PM|| 2004-05-12 1:39:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 The bullshit flag has been raised

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-05-12 1:53:12 PM|| 2004-05-12 1:53:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 AP Source
Link above relates to info above "**flashback**"

The moose has to provide link and relevancy to cowards sawing off a mans head for info below **flashback**

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-12 2:01:26 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:01:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 China's Huawei Technologies is an up-and-coming provider of networking equipment, with $4B in sales. The company is run by an ex-PLA officer and has received substantial funding from the PLA. Is it possible that every router or switch sold by Huawei contains Trojan horse code that can be turned on by the Chinese military to tap into sensitive network traffic on a worldwide basis? Sure. But for some reason, people have seen fit to focus on the activities of Israeli companies, rather than that of Chinese companies. Note that China's foreign policies contributed to the deaths of 100,000 GI's during the Korean and Vietnam Wars, and its sales of weaponry to the al Qaeda and the Taliban were calculated to help Muslims defeat the US in Afghanistan.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-05-12 2:13:05 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:13:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 telecommunications, travel, detention by US authorities.

Israeli Spy Scandal.

By the way, it is a fallacy of logic to assume that just because China spies on the US, Israel does not. Plus, I must object to the assumption that the murder of Nick Berg would be any the less loathsome were he an Israeli spy. Even if the US had advised him to leave Iraq and he continued to put himself in harm's way out of duty. But why, I ask, are you so grievously offended at the suggestion that he was a spy?

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-05-12 2:56:39 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:56:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Because there's no evidence of it!

All you've done is point at his place of employment and his Jewish faith and proclaim that it means he's a spy.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-12 3:30:36 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-05-12 3:30:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Yeah, Zhang Fei. China is the (predicatble) wild card no one's looking at--the real evil empire. How come no one gets it?

Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-12 3:40:12 PM|| 2004-05-12 3:40:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 1) Not his "place of employment", it is *his* business. 2) He went to Iraq as an individual, not as an employee of a company, which is quite unusual for any contractor. 3) He has traveled to other 'difficult' destinations before, for whatever reasons. 4) He was detained by the FBI, though a statement has now been released that it was "Iraqi authorities" that detained him, which goes against his statement, according to his parents. 5) After his release, it was suggested that he leave the country immediately. He remained for an entire month. His parents said that he "was trying to leave." 6) What does a guy have to do to be a spy around here? Show their "official spy ID card"?

If the above does not suggest to you, by a preponderance of the evidence, that he was engaged in activities so outrageously unlike any other legitimate contractor in Iraq, that his motivations should be questioned, then you are either blithely unaware of what spies are and do, or you are in denial.
Once again, this in no way impugns his character, celebrates or apologizes for his murder or his murderers. So why, exactly, do you so vehemently object to the supposition?

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-05-12 3:48:45 PM|| 2004-05-12 3:48:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Anonymoose: If the above does not suggest to you, by a preponderance of the evidence, that he was engaged in activities so outrageously unlike any other legitimate contractor in Iraq, that his motivations should be questioned, then you are either blithely unaware of what spies are and do, or you are in denial.

He is unlikely to have been a spy because an an espionage operation, the whole setup stinks. The guy goes around openly proclaiming his Jewish faith by wearing a kipah wherever he goes. This is not what Mossad agents do, especially in places like Iraq, where Zionist conspiracy theories abound. Israel has plenty of brown-skinned Arabic-speaking Sephardic Jews from Iraq who can blend in like natives - it doesn't have to send non-Arabic-speaking lily-white Ashkenazic Jews like Berg who stick out like sore thumbs into a war zone like Iraq. Berg sounds like an idealist who decided to do some kind of freelance Peace Corps effort in Iraq, without realizing that enough of the locals are unfriendly to make any such venture hazardous.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-05-12 4:09:50 PM|| 2004-05-12 4:09:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 (#10) Nice, Zhang Fei! "The guy goes around openly proclaiming his Jewish faith by wearing a kipah wherever he goes. This is not what Mossad agents do . . ."

Do you have time to respond to #8? Because I'm curious. And that was "predictable" (oops) wild card . . . why don't people care about China? Sometimes makes Islamofascism look tame by comparison.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-12 4:15:32 PM|| 2004-05-12 4:15:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 #9 - Why object? Because it still reads to me as a "he had it coming" story. Sorry. It does. Send it back to re-write if you don't like my assessment.

Posted by eLarson 2004-05-12 4:22:21 PM|| 2004-05-12 4:22:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 This poor kid was so innocent it hurts me. As I understand it, he truly believed the US was there to build a better Iraq and he wanted a bit of adventure, profit and to be a part of history.

His actions would be pretty consistent with that explanation; they'd be pretty inconsistent with the actions of a spy. In fact, they'd be the actions of a pretty incompetent spy. Yet, anon, you'd rather choose to believe he's an incompetent spy more than you'd choose to believe he's merely an innocent who could not fathom the depths depravity of the ROP.

Using your loose logic framework, where connections can be made between two data points for whatever reason, I therefore conclude that YOU must be a spy. Why? Because you are shifting suspicion onto Berg. And if you deny it, that proves it!!!

(see how this works!?! it's easy!)

Posted by PlanetDan 2004-05-12 5:00:15 PM|| 2004-05-12 5:00:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 So why, exactly, do you so vehemently object to the supposition?

Because it makes sense only to an idiot?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-12 5:00:53 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-05-12 5:00:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Zhang Fei: that is the first mention of his wearing a kipah I have heard, source? This, other than the demand for sources from me seems to be the first non-judgemental or ad hominem post yet, and a good point.

Crawford seems to be in an utter denial mode, though. To test: Crawford, does Israel 1) Possess nuclear weapons, which they deny? 2) Does Israel have a ballistic missile facility called "Jerico II", which they deny? 3) Does Israel have a stated policy of assassination of Hamas leaders, which they don't deny? 4) Does Israel have an intelligence organization popularly known as "MOSSAD"? 5) Are you capable of answering these questions, or can you only spew invective, mis-state information, and make crude efforts to change the subject? 6) Will you now accuse me of making an ad hominem attack against you for accusing you of making ad hominem attacks against me?

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-05-12 5:20:24 PM|| 2004-05-12 5:20:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 See Kesher talk - not sure about the kippah, but he was apparently wearing Tzitzit (a fringe at the edge of ones garment, associated with observant, usually orthodox - though Berg was Conservative - Jews) he was clearly NOT hiding his jewishness at all.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-12 5:28:43 PM|| 2004-05-12 5:28:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Other odd stuff.

Nothing really definitive one way or the other, though.

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-05-12 6:24:21 PM|| 2004-05-12 6:24:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Moosy, why would you expect "non-judgemental" responses? You posted crap, it got the appropriate response.

What the hell is the point of your questions? I'm not denying anything; I have no doubt Israel has agents in Iraq; they'd be stupid not to. What I think is idiotic is your argument:

1. Berg owned a telecommunications business.

2. Berg was Jewish.

3. Some people think some Israeli telecommunications companies are used by the Mossad.

4. Therefore, Berg was an Israeli agent.

It's utter bullshit. You're taking two very broad facts and an unsubstantiated accusation and trying to make a conclusion from it.

Point by point:

1. "Berg owned a telecommunications business". What type of business? Did he write telecomm software? Maintain phone switches? Resell equipment? Design office/building wiring plans? Do office/building wiring? How many employees did he have? Was he the sole employee?

"Telecommunication business" covers an immensely broad range. It's like saying "food service business" -- a term that includes fast food joints, five-star restaurants, chef supply companies, produce distributors, and frou-frou boutique farms.

2. "He was Jewish" Yeah, so? That alone was excuse for the jihadis, even if he had just stayed at home. This is pertinent only because you use it to link him to Israel.

3. "Israeli telecomm companies may be used by Israeli intelligence" And US intelligence has used mining companies; does that mean all US mining companies are involved in intelligence work? Or how about Italian restaurants? The mob's used them as fronts; does that mean all Italian restaurants are mob fronts?

More important, from the latest story you linked to, it appears Berg was working with microwave relay towers or something like them. The Israeli firms you're using as your link are telecommunications services companies, doing billing and data processing. Yes, they're both "telecommunications", but they're as different as night and day.

4. "Therefore Berg was an Israeli agent". You make this leap because you apparently want to; as I've pointed out, your "evidence" is so thin it's pathetic.

More important, you want us to believe that Israel sent an agent to Iraq who:

o Was a poor fit for the region, as he didn't look like the natives and barely spoke the native language, even though more appropriate agents were available.

o Openly professed his Judaism in a country that believes all sorts of bizarre conspiracy theories about Jews.

o Visited his brother-in-law's brother while in-country.

It makes no sense, and makes less sense the more we learn.

(And I REALLY don't get the point of your questions. What's the point of them?)

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-12 6:49:13 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-12 6:49:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I think the most important thing is not whether he is an Israeli spy or not, but whether the people who held him thought he was.

Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-05-12 8:51:36 PM|| 2004-05-12 8:51:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 They'd think I'm an Israeli spy, and I'm not Jewish and have never been to Israel. They see Israeli spies behind everything, even the stuff they did themselves.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-12 9:04:22 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-12 9:04:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 True.
I'm just wondering if the Iraqi police worked with the jihadis to murder him.
If so, it sure is disheartning, but I guess I shouldn't think that Iraqi's will be any different that their Jew-hating Muslim brethren.

Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-05-12 10:08:47 PM|| 2004-05-12 10:08:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Crawford, first of all, I didn't even mention that he was a Jew in the original piece. You are the one who seems fixated on that, *and* that it somehow has some bearing on this situation.
"Some people" who think that certain telecom businesses were funded in the US with the express purpose of espionage include the FBI. They busted them along with the several dozen "Israeli Art Students" ring, though they remain in operation.
You seem utterly transfixed with ONLY TWO of the many factors taken into account. This effort, to first underdefine my argument, then "refute" it *because* it is underdefined, is pretty silly.
Lastly, you probably didn't even notice the "Other Odd Stuff" link I posted above. It, along with lots of other very bizarre and paradoxical news items, have been coming through the major news services for the better part of a day now.
Add to it that bizarre, tasteless and funky video of his execution, which itself is full of weirdness, like that screaming woman's voice possibly dubbed on after it was shot.

The bottom line is that you say the supposition that he might have been a spy for Israel is crap. Do you think it is crap because he may have been a spy for Israel? Would it have been any different if he had been a Jewish spy for France? Or a Catholic spy for France?

I am still convinced, and possibly the FBI in Iraq were suspicious, that Nick Berg may have been a spy. Taking all of the above mentioned factors into account, not just the select few that you want to take into account, the theory is a reasonable one.

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-05-12 11:07:29 PM|| 2004-05-12 11:07:29 PM|| Front Page Top

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