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2004-05-12 Great White North

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Posted by Dragon Fly 2004-05-12 12:20:33 PM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Mr Martin faces an election later this year where the Canadian right is united under one Conservative party. That clears your head in a hurry!

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-12 12:29:59 PM|| 2004-05-12 12:29:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Somebody has saddams stuff.

Posted by Lucky 2004-05-12 12:44:56 PM|| 2004-05-12 12:44:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 It's becoming clear from the undertones you hear from our leaders that they are expecting an attack. Not that it should surprise anyone - it's so obvious that it is inevitable, but we've become almost complacent to the threat and hope springs eternal.

I feel sad. We've tried so long and hard to make this a better world. I guess we were foolish to think that our generation was the one that managed to rise above human nature. In fact, if you step back and look at it, it almost seems silly that we thought we had managed to do so. But in American, we ended slavery, gave women rights, ended hunger and raised the standard of living for the common man above what was once only afforded to royalty.

I guess the bottom line is that reality sucks. Human nature hasn't changed. We just managed to live our younger years during a golden age. I'm very, very sad to say that it appears to be over and thanks to fanatical Islam, human nature will again rule the day and human nature is cruel.

Posted by B 2004-05-12 1:02:35 PM|| 2004-05-12 1:02:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 It's becoming clear from the undertones you hear from our leaders that they are expecting an attack.

After what happened in Spain and with our election coming up?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-12 1:24:41 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-05-12 1:24:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Gloomy B.

We just managed to live our younger years during a golden age. I'm very, very sad to say that it appears to be over and thanks to fanatical Islam

Don't get sad, get even. Kill all the f'er Islamofacists.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-12 1:25:09 PM|| 2004-05-12 1:25:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Golden age? over a million people slaughtered by Pol Pot and friends in Cambodia? Cultural Revolution in China? Atrocities by both sides in Latin America? Nuclear balance of terror? No, my younger years were NOT spent in a golden age. If anything, it was the events of 1989 that PROMISED a golden age, but the more far seeing already saw that Islamism threatened that.

The '89 WAS A MIRACLE, it was the great transformation that every realist political scientist said simply COULD NOT happen, and yet human will, and the yearning of the human heart for freedom achieved it. At every low moment it is necessary to recall those days, the triumph of hope and liberty over darkness and despair - remember the Gdansk shipyards, the velvet revolution, and the fall of the Berlin wall. This force will NOT be stopped.

BTW, remember when we discussed who might be the administrator for post-war Iraq? remember i suggested Vaclav Havel. Does anyone think that wouldnt have been a wiser choice than Paul Bremer?

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-12 1:51:26 PM|| 2004-05-12 1:51:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 And a hearty welcome to Canada, newly entering the coalition of the resolute.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-12 1:52:08 PM|| 2004-05-12 1:52:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 B: I hear you. But the world has been going like this for eons. It's our turn to step up to bat, is all. And those come-and-go "golden years" are worth preserving for future generations, don't you think? Why should we have been the only ones to have all the fun--I mean, "it's only rock and roll, but I like it . . ."

Besides. Facist Islam sucks. The neo-nazis of Islam need to be eliminated. They've been hurting kids/women for far too long, and are now trying to bring their sh-t to the rest of us. Well, you know what? We're the lucky ones. We're get to be the ones to make them wish they'd never been born.

If some attack happens, it will only serve to galvanize the fence-sitters--sooner or later.

So, no worries, okay?

Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-12 1:52:10 PM|| 2004-05-12 1:52:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 B, I fear you are right. There is real war looming on the horizon. Not the fight with one hand behind your back stuff like we are seeing now but the real deal. It will coarsen all of our lives.

Posted by remote man 2004-05-12 1:59:58 PM|| 2004-05-12 1:59:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I guess what makes me gloomy is that we can all see the future here. It's like a car wreck in slow motion. There will be a collision. They have swerved into our lane and people will die. The only question now is who is going to survive.

Sigh. Sorry. But it's sometimes you just gotta face the facts.

As for me, I'm going to go enjoy this beautiful day. To heck with Islam or car accidents. Each day is a gift and I'm thankful for each and every moment I've been granted in this paradise called America.

I suggest we all do the same.

Posted by B 2004-05-12 2:08:12 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:08:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I believe that terrorism will be, for our generation, what the Cold War was to generations that preceded us," he said. "I don't think we're out of it yet."

Martin disagreed with former prime minister Jean Chretien, who publicly blamed poverty for terrorism and the Sept. 11 attacks. "The cause of terrorism is not poverty, it is hatred."

If more people see the light, like Paul Martin, we may win without being coarsened.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-12 2:11:24 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:11:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I agree with you partly LH. Inside the bell jar of the developed world, it's been a golden age: pestilence, famine, war, and oppression are no more. Outside the First World, life is lived much as it has been since man first turned to agriculture with some amelioration of the worst effects due to Western agriculture and medicine.

The good news is that the boundaries of the First World are expanding. The bad news is that the Third World oppressors are willing to fight to maintain the status quo.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-12 2:12:02 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:12:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 The good news is that the boundaries of the First World are expanding

beyond what was conceivable a few years ago. Not only in Eastern Europe, but in South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Mexico. In India, for G-ds sake. In southeast asia it reached the borders of Islam - Malaysia, Indonesia, Phillipines, Thailand. As it has in the Med - Morocco, Tunisia, etc. The spread of liberal capitalist democracy has reached and clashed with the civilization least able (for reasons of shame) to copy it - Islam. This war is NOT the siege of the West - it is the siege of the last bastion of reaction. And many within that bastion look for change, even if they are uncertain about the good will of the West.

EVEN IF there is another, far deadlier terrorist attack on the West, it will be necessary to keep that larger picture in mind, and not give in to despair, and to the two seemingly opposite, but in fact related counsels of despair - to surrender, or to lash out.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-12 2:19:39 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:19:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 We still have lots of strategic vulnerabilites. If the Islamists ever really read their Lenin, they will realize that they must strike at the Gulf oil (contra OBL's stated wishes) in order to provoke real exploitable dislocation there. France, Spain, Scandinavia, and the Low countries aren't behaving like rational actors anymore. I really believe that a nuke in Toulon coupled by an uprising by disaffected mujiroon (immigrants) would topple the whole mess. Places like Morocco and Indonesia have western-oriented (coopted might be a better word) elites, but 80-90% of the people are not benefitting from Westernization in a direct manner and are being aggressively prostletyzed by the Salafists.

Everyone here agrees on the goal: rule of law and universal suffrage across the globe (other than that, folks can choose thier own way). Most of the debate is how aggressive to be in pursuing those goals and what tools to use. I personally don't think that the current effort in Iraq wil result in a-rule-of-law democracy. Our efforts in Latin America are perhaps most illustrative of what confronts us. We really didn't start to get serious about democracy there until the 1950's when we started building roads and began institutions like the School of the Americas (yeah it turned out a couple of bad apples, but it is probably the number one reason why LA colonels hardly ever overthrow their governments anymore). We're doing OK, but we still have tons of corruption, racism, oppression, and assholes like Lula and Chavez.

A lot of folks say Islam needs to have a reformation. Well after the Reformation comes the 30 years war and the Hugenots and the Counter-Reformation. Maybe this will all happen on Internet time. I don't know. All I know is that if we're going to stick our noses in there, we better convince all of the players that we are the biggest, baddest mofo in the game.

I know that in the end we win. Winning more quickly and in a decisive manner saves lives.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-12 2:56:09 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:56:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 I'm very, very sad to say that it appears to be over and thanks to fanatical Islam

Get ready.....

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-05-12 2:57:53 PM|| 2004-05-12 2:57:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "As for me, I'm going to go enjoy this beautiful day. To heck with Islam or car accidents. Each day is a gift and I'm thankful for each and every moment I've been granted in this paradise called America. I suggest we all do the same."

RIGHT ON, B! B: About the "car wreck." I think we'd best have George Bush driving our car, in the event of the inevitable.

From Liberalhawk: "This war is NOT the siege of the West - it is the siege of the last bastion of reaction. And many within that bastion look for change, even if they are uncertain about the good will of the West. EVEN IF there is another, far deadlier terrorist attack on the West, it will be necessary to keep that larger picture in mind, and not give in to despair . . . "

Well, so far so good, Liberalhawk.

" . . . and to the two seemingly opposite, but in fact related counsels of despair - to surrender, or to lash out ."

You lost me, there.

If something major comes down, I agree with 11A5S: " . . . we better convince all of the players that we are the biggest, baddest mofo in the game. . . . Winning more quickly and in a decisive manner saves lives."

What kind of "lashing out" do you oppose Liberalhawk? These guys are playing for keeps. Shouldn't we? They don't give a rat's ass about your values.

Note: I don't think many people understand just how unique America really is. Our values, our progress, our way of life should not be bartered away at the price of "peace" or complacency. More resources should be diverted to smoking out the guys responsible for organizing this stuff--the power behind the "throne" of Islamic terrorism. And we better learn Israel's lesson, but quick. I also think its a really bad idea to underestimate barbarians. They don't have much to lose, and each "victory" no matter how small, bolsters their low sense of self-esteem. Except for the leaders, we're dealing with uneducated morons here. I'm not making a slur, I'm just reporting the facts--lower I.Q.'s, lack of education.

(Hey--anybody find it interesting that we haven't heard from "Antiwar" or "Gentle" about how "sad" it is that the Islamofascists want to use WMD's ?)

Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-12 3:21:04 PM|| 2004-05-12 3:21:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Oh my gosh, Yosemite Sam! You always brighten my day!!! Thanks.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-12 3:23:41 PM|| 2004-05-12 3:23:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 1. What if a French city is nuked, there is a rebellion of immigrants

Well first, i have a hard time seeing a UNITED rebellion of muslim immigrants in France. For all the Islamic radicalism there, and antisemitism, its also a fact that a number of muslim immigrants are anti-Islamist, as witness the support of some, and apathy of others, wrt to the anti-Hijab law. And why should other Frenchmen just collapse?? They have every incentive to crush any such rebellion, and hold their society together. First world nation states simply dont collapse like that. Look at Russia, belarus, etc - look at how resilient the states are. France would suspend civil liberties to be sure, but collapse? no.

No benefits to ordinary folks in Indonesia? I dont think so. Up to 1998, there was widespread rise in real wages there, IIUC. After 1998 there was a reversal, that hit some people pretty hard, but still left them better off than in say, 1965. Look at the current election campaign there - the biggest threat to Sukarnoputri is NOT the Islamists, its supporters of a party affiliated with the old (secularist) military regime. Not to say Salafism hasnt grown there, but its only one force in society.

As for Latin America, Im afraid I dont see that we were really pushing for democracy before the late '70s. And from 1979 on theres a rapid expansion of democracy.

I also dont see Lula as entirely negative. He hasnt moved aggressively to reverse free market reforms, and i dont see that hes moved at all against democracy. Hes not our pal, but then neither is France. The spread of democracy and the market doesnt ALWAYS mean the spread of friendship for the US.

Even Chavez has faced distinct limitations - and Venezuala is one country that doesnt remember a recent dictatorship, like Brazil and Argentina. And you dont have to be a Marxist to recognize the exceptionally severe class problems Venezuala has.

Time frame - im not sure. Not as fast as eastern europe, certainly, the preconditions arent there in most places. But stabilization, and progress at something like one country every two or three years making a significant jump towards the future should be acheivable. The literacy rates, levels of urbanization, etc are more favorable than in 17th c western europe. And the impacts of trade, media contagion, etc. far greater.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-12 3:28:51 PM|| 2004-05-12 3:28:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 ex-lib
Thanks!! - No problem

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-05-12 3:37:58 PM|| 2004-05-12 3:37:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 and to the two seemingly opposite, but in fact related counsels of despair - to surrender, or to lash out ."

You lost me, there.

If something major comes down, I agree with 11A5S: " . . . we better convince all of the players that we are the biggest, baddest mofo in the game. . . . Winning more quickly and in a decisive manner saves lives."

What kind of "lashing out" do you oppose Liberalhawk? These guys are playing for keeps. Shouldn't we? They don't give a rat's ass about your values.

Lashing out - massive retaliation, dropping our values and the laws of war, targeting civilians, turning a war over a civilization into a clash of civilizations.

These guys - you mean the radical Islamists? Yup, theyre playing for keeps all right. But they cant win if they dont have the rest of the muslim world actively on their side. And they have failed in their attempts to get that THUS far. Their goal, from 9/11 onwards has been to get that. Now there are two ways to get that. A. By showing the US to be weak. B. By showing the US to be anti-muslim. The soviets in afghanistan managed to show themselves BOTH weak, AND anti-muslim, and so lost entirely. SO FAR we have managed to be neither. TO surrender is to become the weak horse and invite disaster. To lash out at all muslims, is to show the muslim world that we are their enemies whatever they do, and so they might as well join AQ. Both are strategies that result from despairing in our ability to change the muslim world, in forgetting that we have friends (and neutrals) in the muslim world.

The AQ strategy, as I see it, is to make it difficult for us to thread the needle. That was the logic of 9/11 - either the US does nothing effective, and looks weak, or it lashes out by sending 100,000 troops into Afghan and bombing the place to smithereens, resulting in a national uprising, more US troops and more collateral damage, and finally an uprising across the muslim world. Bush was SMART enough to see that, and to go with a small attack, using mainly special forces working with afghans on the ground, and precision air power. Thus we could win, being feared WITHOUT being hated. And Bush stuck to it even when others termbled at Quagmire(TM) The more we can stick to this strategy, the better off we are.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-12 3:58:00 PM|| 2004-05-12 3:58:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Why should France just collapse? They seemed to do a pretty good job of it in 1940. Read Schirer's The Collapse of the Third Republic or Horne's To Lose a Battle if you want a good understanding of the weaknesses of French society and martial prowess during that period. Do those weaknesses still exist? As recently as the fall of the 4th Republic, Algeria, and the Nato pull out, they still did.

There are direct and indirect benefits of Westernization. Rising wages are good. But if you cannot invest them or be safe against hyperinflation or have upward mobility, then you aren't really getting the full benefits. These are precisely the weaknesses in a proto-capitalist state that facists are able to exploit. Hitler's and Mussolini's promise was to protect the average Joe against the hazards of a corrupt and incompetently admistered market economy. We don't call them Islamo-Facists for nothing, LH.

LH, there are severe class problems everywhere in Latin America. My advice to you: go ride a third-class bus between two LA towns and see how the mestizo conductor and driver treat the indio passengers. Then go to the chic, tony, westernized shopping district in a big LA city and see how the criollo customers treat the mestizo store clerks.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-12 4:12:00 PM|| 2004-05-12 4:12:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 1. France collapsed in 1940 when several German divisions crossed it. Maybe they could have fought on - not everyone thinks Shirer is an accurate historian - but in any case even a nuke on a French city wouldnt be the equivalent of what they faced in 1940. Even if you assume (which I do not) that French society is in the same state that it was in in 1940.

As for Algeria, IIRC they withdrew from ALGERIA - France itself did NOT collapse, by any means.

Re - the problems of transition - yup, I agree, and that is whats happening. But there is a light beyond, and I think thats already in sight in some places. I would also suggest that the US will not allow the modernizing muslim govts to be Weimared - we will support them financially and politically. Of course if the counsels of despair are folllowed, and we cease to draw distinctions among muslim states, I might be wrong. I would also suggest that modern day states will use Keynsian solutiuons that even the German Socialists were afraid to use in the 1920's.

Class problems in LA - yup, I dont disagree. My sense is that it has been even more rigid in Venezuala then elsewhere, and is aggravated by an oil based economy.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-12 5:07:09 PM|| 2004-05-12 5:07:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 "Except for the leaders, we're dealing with uneducated morons here. I'm not making a slur, I'm just reporting the facts--lower I.Q.'s, lack of education."

That statement is wrong and dangerous thinking! The guys who trained to fly jet airliners into a building were not necessarily dumb people.

It is dangerous thinking to subscribe to a comparison that if only we "educate" them they will join the modern world and stop killing us.

That is a disingenious argument that sounds awfully like "well they are poor and that causes them to hate us, etc, etc...."

The real cure will be a true battle against Islam. We are not ready for that yet and are still in denial.

When the President (someday 15 - 20 years from now or whenever) comes out and says: "We are no longer tolerant of Islam. It has proved itself to be not a "religion of Peace" but a religion of death. And like extremist cults, we will take action to eradicate it."

We are still a long way from that point, but it will be inevitable.

Surprising? No. We (The West) learned that lesson 1000 years ago and rolled back Islam with the Crusades.

The modern day Crusades has started. One of these years we will come to grips with it.

Posted by Dan 2004-05-12 6:14:51 PM|| 2004-05-12 6:14:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 LH: Re: Algeria. I dunno, allowing a few million of your countrymen to be ethnically cleansed from a country they'd been living in for a few generations is close enough for me to call it collapse.

Only a fool would suggest that we should treat all muslim countries alike. I always find it amusing when you attack me for using general terms like Dar al Islam. Phrases like that contains a lot of data points, yes. But until they wire our minds into the net and I can send you terabyte datastructures with a few gigabytes of analysis attached, I'm going to have to use the vague generalizations of written language.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-12 7:10:32 PM|| 2004-05-12 7:10:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Dan - I'd say that America took one big step coming to grips with it today. The Berg video and the terrorists playing with Israeli soldier's body parts sunk in to all but the the tin-foiled who can't get enough support for even one radio talk show (other than tax funded NPR).

I'd suggest that the AG photos have backfired on our enemies. They have juxtaposed the outrage of AG against the lack of it for the total barbarity that we face. The damage is done and I fear the consequences and what it means for the future. I really do.

Posted by B 2004-05-12 11:00:20 PM|| 2004-05-12 11:00:20 PM|| Front Page Top

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