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2004-04-27 Home Front: Culture Wars
Muslim explorers preceded Columbus. Right.
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Posted by Dragon Fly 2004-04-27 6:38:10 AM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Quebec, the 2,347th Holiest Place in Islam.
Posted by Steve  2004-04-27 8:49:18 AM||   2004-04-27 8:49:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Muslims preceded Columbus to North America. And
Eskimos founded Rome.
Posted by Mark  2004-04-27 8:58:03 AM||   2004-04-27 8:58:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Actually, there is something to this, though the Algonquin chief claim is truly silly.

Still, if you read Columbus' journals as well as those of others who were considering sailing at the time, it is true that they had researched the issue and there were accounts that Muslims had sailed West from Morocco and found something though the journey was thought too dangerous to sustain. This oral evidence is corroborated by Ottoman maps that show a vague outline of an American continent.

There is also evidence that the Chinese sailed the world before shutting up shop.

No idea where Great Chief Abdallah Ibn Malik came from. I wonder what they thought of a Chief named Slave of God, Son of the King.
Posted by Sawt al-Shebaab 2004-04-27 9:35:17 AM||   2004-04-27 9:35:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Except there's no archaeological evidence of Muslim or Chinese pre-Columbian contact. There is definite evidence (from multiple sites!) of Viking presence in North America; where is the equivalent of L'anse aux Meadows for the Muslims or Chinese?

BTW -- which Ottoman maps are those? Some of the supposed evidence is, well, either fake or very generously interpreted.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-04-27 9:42:12 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-04-27 9:42:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Actually, for anyone who has studied the evidence, not dreamy djinn droppings, there is zip zilch nada nothing to this.

Not a single "authority" even entertains this nonsense as a joke. Period. America. Australia. Tierra Del Fuego. The far-flung Isle of Langerhans.

Wotta a load and wotta buncha dipshits. Lame pseudo-science attempts to distract from the fact that Islam was cast in amber on Day One. It is the intellectual Black Hole of mankind; the freak, the disfunctional bottom-feeder, the most regressive and absurd of all mankind's ooga-booga creations to survive longer than the insane founder. 14 centuries of unrelenting hatred, barbarism, brutality, and violence.

I got your vague outline of reality right here, sucker.
Posted by .com 2004-04-27 10:05:46 AM||   2004-04-27 10:05:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 And Eskimos founded Rome.
That's right: Romukulus and Remukulus.
Posted by Spot  2004-04-27 10:25:54 AM||   2004-04-27 10:25:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Assuming all these other folks did discover America first it takes nothing away from Columbus, it just shows that these folks had no follow-through.

Saying you made it to the Americas first and then did nothing about it (and barely kept records of the fact) is kind of pathetic.
Posted by ruprecht 2004-04-27 10:29:58 AM||   2004-04-27 10:29:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I have no problem believing that pre-Columbian sailors wound up in the Americas largely by accident for the most part. In the early 15th century the Chinese had the most advanced naval technology on the planet and were regularily sailing the Inian Ocean. The Arab trading cultures of the Persian Gulf and Red Sea were accomplished navigators in the Indian Ocean. That does not mean that they were purposely sailing the world at large. But that does not mean they didn't either. Our past as a species is often much more complex and interesting than we realize. Perhaps one of the greatest crimes ever perpetrated was the burning of the Chinese accounts of the Voyages of the Treasure Fleets by the Mandarins one the death of Zhu Di the third Ming Emperor
Posted by cheaderhead 2004-04-27 10:40:37 AM||   2004-04-27 10:40:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Columbus' own journals contain references to reported Moroccan ventures west into the Atlantic. That doesn't mean that those ventures really took place, or weren't hyperbolized, or resulted in native contact/settlement of any kind. It's just true that Columbus believed they took place and embarked on his journey in part because he believed the accounts. It's also not unreasonable to suggest that explorers sailing west from Africa had more of a chance to succeed because they had the astrolabe first and had a shorter journey to the Brazilian coast that the Spaniards had to the Indies.

I have honestly forgotten the source of the Ottoman maps but remember reading it in a reputable place - which doesn't excuse the possibility that they were forgeries.

As for the Chinese evidence, it's my understanding that they've found the wrecks of a few Chinese dhows and they also have fairly detailed accounts in Chinese. The Chinese certainly had the capability for such a venture. Wasn't some major book put out recently to this effect.

And I agree that we don't give Columbus or Cortes enough credit for sheer ballsiness, a trait we don't place much stock in these days. Regardless of intent, the instant European diseases hit this continent, the people living here were doomed.

I'm just saying there are legitimate historical 'conspiracies' and then there are stupid ones. The question of the Sphinx's date is a legit question. So is the possibility of non-Viking pre-Columbian journeys.
Posted by Sawt al-Shebaab 2004-04-27 10:47:23 AM||   2004-04-27 10:47:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 the European disease (at least for south America) bit is in dispute, there seems to be a strong correlation between weather patterns and population evidence, the weather patterns that heralded lower population also occurred when the Spanish appeared, it may just have been good timing on their part
( eh I read this like 5 months ago, so am sketchy on the details)
Posted by Dcreeper 2004-04-27 12:09:22 PM||   2004-04-27 12:09:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Sure, muslims, chinee, irish. Rite.
Posted by Churchhills Parrot 2004-04-27 1:17:52 PM||   2004-04-27 1:17:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 The only reason mooslims are trying to say this horseshit is so they can try to claim Canada as a holy site. Same shit, different century. It's been shown many times that most "muslim" accomplishments were either stolen from previous cultures or were done by their slaves (or dhimmi's as the case may be). Islam is nothing if not a regressive, repressive, stealing culture of moon-god, pedophile followers.

Sawt, give some references to your claims. Oh, and if the references are muslim in origin forget it.
Posted by AllahHateMe 2004-04-27 2:02:05 PM||   2004-04-27 2:02:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Plato discovered america! Haven't you ever heard of Atlantis?
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-04-27 2:39:18 PM||   2004-04-27 2:39:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Sawt al-Shebaab, "Chinese dhows" The Arabs used dhows, the Chinese used Junks. A dhow is a smal coastal vessel, a junk is a large vessel with compartmentalized interior (take on water in one section and you don't lose the ship). Chinese Junks were way, way ahead of their time.
Posted by ruprecht 2004-04-27 3:57:55 PM||   2004-04-27 3:57:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Go to the primary source for Columbus' journals on North Africans sailing west.

For an investigation of the Chinese expeditions read: "1421: The Year China Discovered America" (William Morrow)

My bad on the dhow/junks
Posted by Sawt al-Shebaab 2004-04-27 4:07:13 PM||   2004-04-27 4:07:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/

Here's an article summarizing the book about the Chinese claim.
Posted by Sawt al-Shebaab 2004-04-27 4:09:12 PM||   2004-04-27 4:09:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Didn't they have a 'King of the Hill' episode along these lines? Texas fractured history or something like that? This sounds so like it. Any primary Iraqi child knows that Saddam invented Electricty. All college students in North Korea know that 'Dear Leader' expored space long before the American, Russians, or Chinese. So I am skeptical that Arabs INTENTIONALLY explored beyond waters of the North Africa. Their Naval technology wasn't up to the task. Maybe Allah created a great storm that sent them accross the ocean?
Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)  2004-04-27 7:28:29 PM||   2004-04-27 7:28:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Yeah, well... it was worth a shot, right?
Posted by tu3031 2004-04-27 9:24:30 PM||   2004-04-27 9:24:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Actually, the greatest sea-faring people were the Polynesians (distance-wise). They went as far east as Easter Island on nothing more than catamarans.
Posted by Rafael 2004-04-27 9:45:29 PM||   2004-04-27 9:45:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 And even more impressive the Polynesians went against the winds the entire way, that way if they didn't find anything they knew the trade winds would bring them back. Very clever folks.
Posted by ruprecht 2004-04-27 11:11:51 PM||   2004-04-27 11:11:51 PM|| Front Page Top

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